ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: princec on September 17, 2025, 07:15:01 PM
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-vOe1q4f5E
Commented on the vid, but my thoughts here are:
1. Quality looks to be way better than a Zero. Looks great too IMHO.
2. Price similar to a Zero S, £13k
3. 67bhp peak, 18kW continuous output, same as a Zero S more or less
4. CCS charging!
5. 6kW AC charging
6. Proper belt drive
7. Battery capacity unknown - claimed range ~80 miles, which would lead me to suspect a 6kWh battery or thereabouts, which would suck; or they're being really conservative and that's highway miles, which could mean 12+kWh. The devil is in the detail but personally I'm not buying anything with a lower range than my current Zero.
Cas :)
-
If it has a 6kW AC charger and Honda said it will recharge at home in ~3 hours that's telling me definitely double digit kWh capacity. I'm going to optimistically hazard a guess of 15kWh and they're being conservative listing highway range. I know, I know, me being optimistic must mean we're in End Times but let's throw caution to the wind.
-
So that silver colored holder for the battery. make it swing down and out, maybe a bolt or something to hold it up on the opposite end. point being, pop a new battery in / out in say 5 minutes or so. make the batteries swappable. i run that one dry, pull in, swap in 5, got another 80 miles while the old one charges, or again, battery swap program, as i go station to station on my trip, whatever just swap from pool of batteries.
range anxiety solved. like putting batteries in a flashlight... almost
aaron
-
At over 200kg I'd imagine it's 15kWh or more, so for a few hundred quid more than a 7.2 FXE with more power and much faster charging (both AC and DC) as well as most like better build quality I'd say it's an absolute bargain. As an addendum to Cas's post a Zero S is actually £2.5k more expensive for 14.4kWh, slower charging (DC is half the speed and of course no AC), 5kg heavier, and 7hp less.
-
tbh it blows the competition into the weeds in bang-for-buck. Only gripe would be price vs ICE equivalents, still, but it makes all its competitors look expensive and second-rate.
Cas :)
-
"6. Proper belt drive"
What do you mean by this? Sensibly large enough diameter front sprocket and sensible wide enough belt?
-
I don’t hate it. It’s not in Energica territory in either capability or price, but it’s always a treat to see another CCS-capable bike. With fast charging, hopefully 15+ kwh and the Honda badge, it might actually have a chance.
It’s tiptoeing around repeating Livewire’s mistake of trying to compete in the middleweight category, though, which is the toughest nut for electrics to crack, and I think it will be 15-20 years before an electric 650cc equivalent can compete on both range and price with ICE bikes. I also feel like any road bike that’s intended to leave city limits should have at least 90 miles of highway range at Interstate speeds of 75 MPH, preferably 100+. Otherwise you’re courting a very small and fickle audience of multi-bike owners who don’t mind the range limitations but also don’t already have a premium electric motorbike. There’s a reason the Energica Experia had a full order book and the offerings from Zero and Livewire didn’t, IMO, and it was the 130 mile highway range. 80 miles is pretty good, especially when combined with a fast CCS charger, but I still think it’s going to scare away a lot of potential buyers.
As an electric upgrade path, it might tempt some Zero owners, but probably only the S-platform owners, as I have trouble imaging a lot of SR/F and SR/S owners giving up all that torque and acceleration. I can’t imagine any Energica owners making the trade. Owners of Surrons, Super Socos, and similar brands, though, might find it very tempting, and might be attracted to the Honda name. So might Stark Varg owners who fell in love with electric and now want a highway-capable electric road bike.
I give a 50/50 chance of selling well. If it doesn’t, and dealers become desperate to get rid of them, it could make for some good bargains to be had in a couple years.
-
7. Battery capacity unknown - claimed range ~80 miles
They did give a good clue. In fact, I wish they would never even mention range or charge times. I only want to know the charging KW and the battery usable KWH. I can figure it out from there close enough.
It says it takes 3 hours to charge to full with a 6 KW charger.
That will be 3hrs times 6KW=18KWH (or somewhat close to that for the battery size). I find 7 miles (11KM) per KWH usually works well for an average motorcycle ride.
18 KWH times 7=126 miles. That is the range I would expect for average condition riding at various speeds.
-
I don't believe it to be anywhere near 18kWh, it's far too small. I suspect it'll be around 11 or 12 usable The 3 hour charge time supposes that it slurps 6kW for the entire 3 hours duration and we know that's not what happens.
As an SR/F owner I'm very tempted by the Honda. The SR/F is outrageously fast, but I have to acknowledge that 95% of my miles are done in Street mode with similar power and torque characteristics and that's actually easily fast enough. The main reason I would have to sidegrade is legendary Honda build quality and backup. Zeros don't feel in any way premium at all. Mine just rusts constantly, the plastics are sharp and vaguely fitted, the switchgear just about as cheap as it is possible to buy, etc. I love it to bits (I will indeed love it till it falls to pieces - it is virtually worthless second hand so I may as well) but my next bike will only be a Zero if they massively move their game on in at least one area: either quality (to reach the bar set by other £17000 motorcycles), charging speed (doubled, please), battery capacity (+50%, please), or reduced price (compete with the Honda, please)
Cas :)
-
A half hour to charge from 20 to 80 on CCS?? Are you kidding me?? That's not much longer than it takes to charge up my Zero with it's 14.4kWh battery and a Level2 AC charger! That should be a LOT faster!!
-
The battery just won't be big enough to take that sort of boost and stay reliable for the lifetime of the bike. That looks to me like a nice conservative peak charging rate of 1C with 20kW.
Cas :)
-
A half hour to charge from 20 to 80 on CCS?? Are you kidding me?? That's not much longer than it takes to charge up my Zero with it's 14.4kWh battery and a Level2 AC charger! That should be a LOT faster!!
You don't understand battery charging, smaller does not necessarily mean it will charge faster. You can only reliably charge them at certain C rates. If it's smaller that does not mean it fills up quicker, that means you have to pour the power back into them slower. Until the technology changes that allows them to charge at faster rates without the detriment, your charge time is going to essentially remain the same.
As for AC charging, in essence the charger is what limits you. DC chargers, most commercial ones, a motorcycle is no way going to push them to capacity
Aaron
-
Charge times are basicly gonna stay in the 20-30 minutes range until either chemistry changes or someone figures out how to package both high capacity and active thermal management and likely the latter will require the former.
-
Curious, i wonder how much weight liquid cooling would add. you'd need the baffle plates, radiator, fluid, reservoir, pump, tubing, plus the extra maintenance of fluid level and purity checking. But thinking that might add another what 40 lbs to the bike? it'd have to be it's own system really because motors running at 150 degrees and stuff no problem, batteries. umm no. when it's a hot ass day in florida, and the asphalt temp is pushing 130 degrees, you are going to be challenged getting enough air exchange to get that to effectively cool anymore.
aaron
-
Nah, way less than that - look at the amount of metal that's involved in all the cooling fins on the Zero battery pack and motor.
Cas :)
-
It's not just weight it's volume, going back to my point in another thread you're working within a restrictive form factor and you've gotta make your battery physically larger to fit the cooling architecture inside it. Also it'd need to be a heat pump so that you can concentrate all the low temperature distributed heat energy into a much higher temperature fluid in your radiator because if it's only a few degrees C above ambient your cooling efficiency will be awful and you can't compensate with a giant radiator. Worse with batteries in hot climates it's entirely possible for the battery to be below ambient in which case your simple liquid cooling loop is actually a low power heating loop! You also can't get away without a fan because a lot of your cooling need is going to be when stationary.
-
Nah, way less than that - look at the amount of metal that's involved in all the cooling fins on the Zero battery pack and motor.
Cas :)
Zero's are passive cooled though just like the old Energicas. We're talking about an active thermal system like you find on basicly every non-Leaf electric car from the Model S onwards.
-
That's what I mean - the weight of passive cooling is not insignificant either. And volume. Anyway it all looks to be solvable and bit by bit it is happening.
Cas :)
-
in the case of the Energica's that passive cooling is also protection for the battery. That is why they are able to handle awful abuse, like my crash earlier and not burst into flames, because the battery pack is built like a tank. they really can't take too much of that protection (which also happens to be part of the cooling system) away can they?
aaron
-
The WN7 does actually look to have a cooling radiator just above the front wheel, with the air going through it passing above the battery pack and possibly over the charger. I'm going to assume the radiator is primarily for the motor, it doesn't look to be exposed and covered in fins like on a Zero although the bodywork on the sides behind the battery may channel air to it. It could also provide some active cooling to the charger by also turning the fans on while charging, if that's not also liquid cooled.
(https://www.motoplanete.us/honda/images-wysiwyg/Honda-WN7-fiche-2.webp)
-
Motor is liquid cooled.
Battery will charge from 20-80% in 30 minutes. So at 6 kW I'm guessing the battery to be about 10-11 kWh.
18 kW power is supposed to equal 600 cc engine.
The bike specs are nothing special. Price is high, weight is high, range is low, power is low, it's been hit repeatedly with the ugly stick.
What is special is that it's the first proper production electric bike from manufacturer with thousands of dealers worldwide (ignoring HD LiveWire :D). And the design seems quite good. I'd buy one if I could sell my Zero at a good price.
-
That's a big "if" but I am fairly certain our Zeros are practically worthless. Which sort of plays into our hands because a 1yr old WN7 will also depreciate like a lead balloon - I expect them to be approximately half of RRP by 2026 on the 2nd hand market, which to those in the know, would make an excellent deal.
Cas :)
-
The 20-80% in 30 minutes is on DC, it's under 3 hours 0-100% at 6kW. So if we assume an average closer to 5.5kW and a time of say 2 hours 45 minutes then that's a smidge over 15kWh. It's lighter, cheaper, and faster charging than a Zero of comparable capacity, for a first attempt at a serious electric bike from Honda I'd say they're doing pretty damn good, much better than Kawasaki.
-
Yes, Kawasaki's attempts have been fairly laughable. Interesting that Yamaha haven't stepped up yet, they're famous for tech innovation.
I think I might be getting one of these WN7s when I've extracted all I can from the Zero.
Cas :)
-
Yes, Kawasaki's attempts have been fairly laughable. Interesting that Yamaha haven't stepped up yet, they're famous for tech innovation.
I think I might be getting one of these WN7s when I've extracted all I can from the Zero.
Cas :)
NEVER buy the first production model of something brand new unless you enjoy being an unpaid tester for the factory.
-
Yes, Kawasaki's attempts have been fairly laughable. Interesting that Yamaha haven't stepped up yet, they're famous for tech innovation.
I think I might be getting one of these WN7s when I've extracted all I can from the Zero.
Cas :)
Yamaha has been producing a trials motorcycle for must be 5 years by now. I think they come in second in the few rounds of top level competition that offer an electric class. It seems they make motors.
As to this Honda, I see one pinch bolt on the top fork mount so that probably indicates how severe service it is intended for. Say they start producing it in 2026 moto journalists and Europeans will likely get them before the general public here.
-
I wonder what the cost of the WN7 will be in the U.S. after it gets hit by our tariffs, if it is even marketed here? And will Honda dealers really want to sell the bikes after hearing from other dealers that have been selling Zeros, LiveWires, Energica's and other short-lived electric motorcycles (like the ones listed on this forum which are no longer with us) over the years? ???
-
last i checked Energica, livewire and zero are still around, selling bikes.
Energica got shagged, but cleaned up the mess done to them and are back working towards becoming main stream again.
Energica's failure was not because of it's product, it was because of scammers. They divested themselves from the cancer and now are coming back to sell a product that was doing fairly well. Hopefully they do a bit more advertising to get the name out there better this time.
aaron
-
I was thinking of how U.S. dealers feel about selling electric motorcycles. From what I hear, most think they don't make them enough money to be worth the effort selling them. Not enough volume and it is hard to find technicians to work on them.
My daughter just made an appointment to service her KTM 390 Duke with a local KTM motorcycle dealer in Northern California. When making the appointment she was told that they only had one mechanic left working in the shop and it would take them a month to fit her into their schedule. She was also told that they were no longer performing any service work on Saturdays, Sundays or Mondays. So times appear to be tough for motorcycle shops this year and I think many shops are backing off on taking any financial risks right now.
One comment that hasn't been mentioned about the WN7 is that it doesn't seem to be designed to accommodate any useful luggage. That little seat pack that was shown sure looks like an after-thought.
-
An article in my newspaper today, written by Jack Ewing and published by the New York Times discusses the fast depreciation of electric cars and how good of a buy they are right now as used vehicles. An extreme example at the beginning of the article describes an 80-year-old woman living in San Francisco, who recently bought a 2013 Leaf for only $1,000, after factoring in a rebate from her utility company (PG&E, I assume).
One advantage to electric motorcycles that I can never recall being mentioned in manufacturer promotional videos, or even video reviews like Motobob's, is the lack of maintenance needed by electric motorcycles. Anyone who has bought an ICE motorcycle in for servicing at a dealership (like, heaven forbid, a franchised BMW dealership), or even an independent shop, should appreciate the reduction in expensive maintenance cost. As an example, my daughter's 2000 KTM 390 Duke's 600-mile servicing cost $650!
The 2014 Zero S that my daughter also owns, has only been to a shop for servicing once. And that was just a couple of months after it was purchased to replace a defective Power Tank. Since then it has never needed any servicing, other than tire replacement and brake fluid changes. And it still runs as well as new, with no obvious decrease in battery performance or range. :)
-
A half hour to charge from 20 to 80 on CCS?? Are you kidding me?? That's not much longer than it takes to charge up my Zero with it's 14.4kWh battery and a Level2 AC charger! That should be a LOT faster!!
Would you be surprised if I laughed and told you I don't believe your Zero charges 60% in ~30 minutes?
It has mode-3 AC charging. Slowest of which is 3.6 kW. 3 hours of that is 10-11 kWh.
Video claims 6kW AC charging. Obviously I don't have any official specs from Honda; I'm just repeating what the video claims. If it's ~3kW then yes I'd presume a much smaller battery because math.
-
My Zero used to charge about 50% in 30 minutes, till they broke it >:(
As to "lower maintenance costs" ... my Zero has cost me £750 in belts, and still needs an annual service and MOT and tyres and brake pads, and keeps going wrong in other stupid ways. It's cost me no less than any other bike I've owned, especially now that bikes are getting 10-15,000 mile service intervals. At the end of the day the difference in fuel costs is wiped out by the massive insurance premiums, and what we're left with is colossal immediate depreciation to what the vehicle is really worth, which is why we see 2 or 3 year old Zeros going for just £9,995, which is really what they should be priced at to sell.... ditto the new Honda.
Cas :)
-
I don't believe it to be anywhere near 18kWh, it's far too small.
I agree that it seems that way, unless they invented a smaller battery that has more KWH.
I was only showing what the simple math says. Perhaps there is an error in their claims somewhere.
-
Perhaps there is an error in their claims somewhere.
Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
-
Can I borrow some of that cash to get a hamburger. I'll gladly repay you on Tuesday.
As to maintenance. there's still tires, and chain maintenance. Don't forget your forks too, you really should change that oil annually as well.
if you buy the stuff and do it yourself the energica annual is what 60 bucks, at a dealer about 300, so there is that.
Aaron
-
Belts, tyres, brake pads and bleeding and discs, suspension, can all be done by any motorcycle garage. It's not different to any ICE bike. Even if you've got an Energica that needs an oil and coolant change there's no reason you should have to go somewhere that specialises in them. The only "routine maintenance" that I could think of requiring that would be the motor commissioning on Zeros after 600 miles or whatever, but that's hardly a necessity.
Perhaps there is an error in their claims somewhere.
Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
There is no error, just Don's lack of reading comprehension and assumptions. They said 0 to 100% in under three hours, that could be anywhere from 2 hours and 1 minute to 2 hours and 59 minutes. And just because it has a 6kW charger doesn't mean you can assume it's constantly pushing that amount of power.
One comment that hasn't been mentioned about the WN7 is that it doesn't seem to be designed to accommodate any useful luggage. That little seat pack that was shown sure looks like an after-thought.
I'm curious about those panels below the pillion area of the seat, perhaps removable to be replaced with pannier mounts.
-
Kriega, Oxford, Givi etc will be along to produce some nice luggage for it. There probably already is some that fits just fine.
Doesn't really look like a luggage kind of bike though... touring and electrics still isn't really a thing though is it.
Cas :)
-
It's not always about touring, it's practicality. I don't have a car so having a top box on my bike makes shopping a lot more feasible, also means I don't have to carry my helmet around with me everywhere I go. Also for taking crap like tools to work, or to my sisters to help out with DIY.
-
It's nice to have somewhere to put your packed lunch
-
It's nice to have somewhere to put your packed lunch
Or your DC charging cable. ;)
-
Well your AC cable, nobody carries a DC cable with them!
BMW CE-04 had promise but spoiled by small battery size. Add 50% and I'm there.
Cas :)
-
It's not always about touring, it's practicality. I don't have a car so having a top box on my bike makes shopping a lot more feasible, also means I don't have to carry my helmet around with me everywhere I go. Also for taking crap like tools to work, or to my sisters to help out with DIY.
Amen! This is why I had a top box mount made for my SS9 13.4. Manufacturers need to get out of the “bikes = toys” mindset and realize that a lot of electric buyers are looking to live as car-free or car-lite as they can. Without full luggage, you just can’t replace a car for most practical trips.
-
This is also why I fell in love with maxi-scooters. My TMax and X-Adv were two of the most useful bikes I've ever had, and they were also great to ride.
Cas :)
-
i love my Experia for its ability to go shopping with, carry tools / test equip back and forth to work etc etc.
it also can carry 100 lbs of coffee to deliver to the ups shop too.
can load a nice amount of groceries too.
thats the thing id love to be able to ride the bike instead of the truck any time i am able to.
having carrying room is vital, even if it's just somewhere to lock up your helmet / gloves for when you go places so you don't have to lug them around with you all over the place.
carried 2 chickens home one time on the ribelle, 1 in each bag, zipped in with head poking out bag to breathe.
so yah having storage is actually a necessity
aaron
-
Love that image! 100 lbs of coffee in the top case, chickens sticking their heads out of the side bags, knee down in the corner.
-
Where there is a will, there is a way.
-
It's nice to have somewhere to put your packed lunch
Or your DC charging cable. ;)
I never carry my AC cable unless I'm going camping or staying at a friends. Waste of space otherwise.
-
sometimes i will when i am scouting out new charging places. some of them are right on the fringe, and in case i get there and well shit, it won't charge, if i get in a jam on the way back, i can plug in well... anywhere for an emergency sip up to get back home on. since energica will only take 15 amp max you can get away with a thinner gauge extension cord, i custom built a charger assy that's less than 2 foot long with the j plug and control box. Plug that into extension cord, plug the proper head on the other end of the cord, that head into the wall and good to go and it takes up a lot less space in the bag.
aaron
-
I kind of regret filling my SR/F frunk with the 6kW extra charger now, which I've used maybe 20 times. Three grand for that, and I barely need it. Plus an extra 15kg or something everywhere I go and now I can't carry a charging cable.
Cas :)
-
I thought that locating the start button on the side of the bike, perhaps integrated into the battery pack, was an odd location and not all that convenient for the rider.
-
I thought that locating the start button on the side of the bike, perhaps integrated into the battery pack, was an odd location and not all that convenient for the rider.
Gonna be honest, I don't trust keyless systems and I'd rather just have a regular ignition and not try to reinvent the wheel just to appear fancy and futuristic.
-
keyless does have it's issues.
lets say you are sitting inside a building, right outside the wall your bike is parked, 5 feet line of sight from you, or even maybe 8. for some reason it still sees your fob, anyone can walk up turn it on and go for a ride, they'll be sol when they get wherever else but still. not to mention when they do start misbehaving they can be a real pain in the ass.
had one, went back to keyed, life is a lot simpler and orders of magnitude less nuisance alarms.
aaron
-
Regarding the slow DC charging, I think it's worth it just to have more options to charge. Cars are driving the infrastructure and cars have very little use for AC charging in the wild. Even with a max charge rate of 10 or 12 kilowatts DC charging is fine for a bike like that as DCFC is going to continue to get more and more prevalent.
I get it.
But I also think HD went the right way with the Livewire only having Level 1 and CCS, no Level 2 AC. You either want fast charging of have the time for an overnight. Don't load it up with a high capacity onboard charger if you can use CCS.
-
The issue here (UK) is still that there are 7 and 22kW AC chargers everywhere because they cost so little to install and are so unobtrusive and small, and there are proportionally far, far, fewer DC chargers around and they tend to be in shitty places you don't want to visit like motorways and McDonalds car parks. And they are often occupied by cars, and cars are often occupied by Karens.
Regarding keyless - don't forget how easily they are thwarted with amplifiers and Flippers. They're a terrible idea. Having said that my X-Adv fob had a button to turn it off so it wouldn't respond, which you would typically use if you were sat nearby where it was parked like in a cafe and didn't want someone to pinch it.
Worst thing about keyless though is it is just one more thing to go wrong, and in two ways - flat batteries and broken transponders (hello, stranded BMW rider).
Cas :)
-
The difference in size and weight of the charger really isn't that much and while a lot of the time charging slowly would be fine, such as while you're at work or overnight, there are times when you'll want to charge faster at home. Unexpected things happen and the next best thing to just having more range is having faster charging, which is also a lot cheaper and lighter.
-
having level 1 but not level 2 charging is kind of ridiculous. Most all The chargers pretty much universally accept from like 97 vac to 270 vac or something like that as an input and put out the appropriate out. i kind of wonder if someone did plug 240 into the thing itd probably work, unless they intentionally have a proprietary charger that purposely omitted the higher voltage, for what reason, ...shrug...
could be worth a try playing with it on a variac to see.
aaron
-
Seeing as most of the world uses ~240 it would seem likely that it works.
Cas :)
-
tbh I've occasionally left my key in the ignition but I can count on the fingers of one hand how often. I find something that really helps is that the key to my disclock is now attached to the ignition key, and I never leave my bike anywhere unlocked, even for a minute.
Cas :)
-
Seeing as most of the world uses ~240 it would seem likely that it works.
Cas :)
For whatever reason, even a 240VAC supply , like a public J1772 still only gets you ~1.5kw on the Livewire 1
-
Yeah, that seems to be all they saw fit to give it, assuming you were going to only ever painstakingly charge it overnight at home. Another reason I didn't buy one.
Cas :)
-
Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
I would put my money on the math, not on people.
However, they need to give us accurate numbers to work with.
I cannot think of anything more useless than a mention of "range" on an electric motorcycle. Especially when no speed or anything else is mentioned.
-
Any betting types in here? I know where I'd put my money between Don's Internet Speculations and the engineers at Team Honda. I've got cash
I would put my money on the math, not on people.
However, they need to give us accurate numbers to work with.
I cannot think of anything more useless than a mention of "range" on an electric motorcycle. Especially when no speed or anything else is mentioned.
I get the impression that some electric motorcycle range claims might include traveling at 25 mph with a tail wind. ::)
And if you really want to see crazy claims, just check out the Chinese electric bicycle market where very long distance claims are the norm. I have two ebikes. One claimed a range of 80 miles, but I typically get 25 miles on my rides. My other ebike claims a range of 100 miles on throttle-only and 200 miles if you pedal (well, duh). ::) I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the marketing information there is a statement that your range may vary. ;)
My favorite electric motorcycle claim is Zero's claim of a battery life for my 2018 Zero S with PT of 455,000 miles that was listed in their 2017 model brochure. :o
-
It's worth remembering that a lot of quoted range estimates follow standardised systems designed for cars and ex-urban IS NOT motorway, it's more like 80kmh/50mph backroads. This is where aero rears its ugly head again because the difference in power consumption for bikes at 80 vs 130 is way way higher than for cars due to cars being in a totally different league for coefficient of drag. ICE bikes obfuscate it because their engines are more efficient under higher loads whereas with EVs the difference is starker due to efficiency being basicly static.
-
once you get much over 30 to 35 mph on a bike, the wind drag becomes THE major thing. Swept area, wind coefficient, etc, energy goes up by a factor of 4, so at high speeds, just an extra 5 mph might take 50 hp.
if you can, get on a highway early / late when there is not a lot of traffic, set your speed to 70 mph / 100 ish kmh sit straight up and watch your power consumption for a mile or so, now do a good race tuck and watch how much that can go down. yes, even just your body sticking up causes THAT much drag.
another interesting thing, as you heat the battery up, get it into the yellow, the range goes up significantly on it. The chemical action etc etc.
yesterday i did a 285 mile round trip on my ribelle across north / ne florida hitting a shit ton of charging stations seeing which ones work, don't work, having fun... just a fun day out.
getting on some of those back country highways / roads with no traffic. ooh yah i lit her up. did some back to back to back charge / discharge cycles. i finally started hitting some charge current limiting at a battery temp of about 45 C ish, it took me down to about 45 amps.. this caused the battery to rise in temp a bit from charging to about 50c which limited my charging to worst case about 32 amps. this mainly i believe was because the bike was sitting in the hot ass sun with zero breeze on the battery to remove any heat.
got back on the road and did an extended romp. this time on the interstate which amazingly had very light traffic. ironically the air flow was enough to actually cool the battery down a bit until i started coming over 100 ish. at about 110 sustained for 5 minutes or so, battery temp started climbing slightly again. i found it interesting that the air flow could keep the battery cool even at elevated speeds. i also found that my range jumped significantly too. i had one run that was 32 miles, varying speeds, only slowing really when i had to or, when the creep got me in the 120 range and i really needed to slow down to not super suck the battery. elevated speed, i was expecting battery drain to be 50 to 60 percent. i was testing if i could 'have fun' between 2 charging stations, and not have to worry about percent left if one was closed and i had to run the additonal 12 miles to hit another station that worked for me. i ended up with 38 percent suck down which frankly stunned me. earlier 'romps in the hay' with battery temps much lower, slorped it down pretty hard at those speeds.. well maybe 20 mph faster but still. the efficiency really surprised me. Total disclosure though i was purposely trying to minimize battery drain, and was in a full race tuck hiding behind the wind screen as much as i could. At those speeds the wind can start causing problems and i try to stay out of it if i can.
anyways, battery range, you can do a lot to change it, and yes, there really should be like an iso standard or something on how that is determined. i am sure there is some standard there already but the manip can be huge, they need a lot more disclosure on how they ran it.
as for ice and efficiency. not entirely sure for just bikes. i have a chevy silverado and when doing 65 mph can get about 14 mpg maybe 15 now when i push that up to say 90 mph i can get 18 to sometimes 20 mpg. the aero on that thing is horrid, the front is a wall really. loading that big ass v8 up yes i can see where the efficiency may come up a bit. as another side note, trees lining the highway even though they are what 100 feet back from the road, in the everglades.. but having a solid line of trees to break the wind can have a huge impact too, for whatever reasons, towing my trailer i can go from 10 to 11 mpg to 14 ish just by getting into the treed off zones. not sure how that would affect a bike, i might have to make a run to orlando and do some investimugatin :) Dainese is down there and i need to reset the airbag on my one suit i finally got fixed at a steal of a deal... hmm maybe next week if weather is nice.
anyways, some of those big claims, they possibly may have done it, but there is so much manip that can be done to a vehicle to make the claims,.. there really needs to be a much higher standard of controls or much better disclosure of a LOT of parameters when they give their numbers. and NO a dyno can NOT replicate real life very well even with a wind tunnel. i want real life numbers, not fudge numbers
aaron
-
I find I get between 6-9 miles per kWh typically in the summer. 6 on the motorway at 70, 9 is the average (I get 120 miles from a new Zero battery). My 1% range reduction per degree-C-below-20 rule of thumb seems to work well too.
This is why I want a 30kWh battery :) Then I might actually be able to take it properly touring again.
About that longevity thing ... I don't really care so much long they claim it'll last, what I do care about is the warranty on it. Zeros tend towards "worthless" as they lerp towards the battery warranty expiring. 5 years and they might as well just be a rolling chassis for all the trust anyone gives them. I don't blame anyone for this either... look at the support you can get for a 12 year old Zero. And every single one of the original Gen3 14.4 batteries was duff.
I just need to get 50,000 miles out of my bike before it explodes or falls to bits or turns to dust, don't care, I've written off the total cost and it'll come to 40 pence per mile in depreciation which would make it entirely reasonable value for money compared to any other bike I've owned. My Z900 has cost me £1 per mile.
Cas :)
-
if people charged them using the 20 80 rule they'd last a lot longer too, but there goes your range. oh and you need to top it off once a week or it don't balance right.. so.. yah. longevity... ok. The batery inherently is going to go kaput about 8 years tops anyways, that's just the way the chemistry is.
aaro
-
Which coincidentally, is 48,000 miles, at my current 6,000 miles a year ;)
Cas :)
-
if people charged them using the 20 80 rule they'd last a lot longer too, but there goes your range. oh and you need to top it off once a week or it don't balance right.. so.. yah. longevity... ok. The batery inherently is going to go kaput about 8 years tops anyways, that's just the way the chemistry is.
aaro
Don't most manufacturers bake the 20 80 rule right in? I mean I have a 22.5 KWH battery but only ever get access to 19KWH. So even when the bike says 100% its not really 100%. same for 0%, right.
Packs built in the last 5 to 10 years arent going to degrade like a 2010 Nissan Leaf battery.
I'll hit 40000 miles on my Experia next month. The metrics on my engineering screen make me think the pack is getting better with more use. lol
-
No, they have a built-in margin top and bottom but it's higher and lower than the 80/20 marks, but that'll generally just ensure that the battery survives its warranty period. 80/20 will increase the longevity by at least a factor of 2 or somesuch.
Cas :)
-
The manufacturer have a little padding to make sure the battery keeps it's 'stated drop' over xx years. so yes they'll take a 23 kw battery and call it a 21 so that when the 5 years is up, and it's dropped off, it's still at it's 80 percent of original claim.
The most damage tends to happen in the top and bottom 10 percent of the charge / discharge cycle. So lets say you have a pack that can take 2000 cycles at 100 percent. if you shaved 10 off each end it may see 5000 cycles, if you shaved 20 off each side ie 20 80 it may see 10000 cycles. Even with all this though, there still is the inherent limitations of the chemistry .vs. longevity. the battery will tend to want to crap out at about 8 years or so, no matter how well you treated it. Some of the newer techs, the iron phosphates are seeing better ageing on them but not by a whole bunch. I think the best warranty you will see out there now is 10 years BUT that's only if you follow an 80 20 cycle on it. I have not done extensive research on warranty/s but if anyone knows of a reliable company that is offering more than 10 years please let me know.
aaron
-
Hoping that maybe they'll be rather cheaper in 10 years' time :D
Cas :)
-
Honestly "in 10 years time" sounds more like a "What alternative cells could I replace these with" question given that battery technology is still rapidly improving.
-
That's pretty much the game right there.
look at what we had 10 years ago available to us, vs today? would you buy that tech now, with what's available now, and probably cheaper too?
of course not.
so the whole warranty bla is mostly eye fluff to try to suck you into the sale.
10 years from now, who knows what will be all the rage, but can pretty much guarantee it'll make todays cutting edge look like a dull razor.
aaron
-
tbh the 5 year warranty is the only reason I touched a Zero in the first place (good thing too). And it is also the reason why the bikes are virtually scrap value after 5 years... nobody sane would buy a 5 year old Zero of unknown provenance.
(Zero are missing a trick up-selling extended warranties here)
Cas :)
-
If people only knew the true reason Zero offered the 5 year unlimited mile warranty on the packs... well let's just say a lot fewer bikes would have been purchased.
-
...
Cas :)
-
Most of the 'degrade' happens in the first year or two, the rest trickles down. of course you can do things to accelerate it but, you battery is at 85 percent after year 2 let alone 80 percent at year 5. storing at 100 percent soc is a bad thing....temps over 85 deg and storage very bad, this can kill you 10 percent a year... fast cycling, many things take their toll.
Aaron
-
Here is a link to Cycle World's spin on the WN7. If this article was posted here before, I apologize. I just didn't want to look through 6 pages of this thread to check. :-[
https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/honda-wn7-ev-ready-for-production/
-
Ok it's 9kWh. Boo. Rubbish. Real world range will be about 60 miles then.
Cas :)
-
Link?
-
https://global.honda/en/newsroom/news/2025/c251104feng.html:
Drive battery and charging standards
The WN7 is equipped with a newly developed 9.3 kWh fixed lithium-ion battery. It supports both CCS2 fast charging*1 and Type 2 normal charging*2, compatible with standard household outlets in many regions. With a fast charger, the battery can be charged from 20% to 80% in approximately 30 minutes, allowing for quick recharging on the go and reducing the stress of waiting time.
In addition, normal charging fully charges the battery from 0% to 100% in under 2.4 hours*3, providing a cruising range of 140 km (WMTC mode) on a full charge.
-
Thank you! Somehow I missed Honda's own announcement or I was just bad at googling today.
-
Ok it's 9kWh. Boo. Rubbish. Real world range will be about 60 miles then.
Cas :)
Well it's a lot better than Zero's 7.2 FXE for less money (not only are you getting the larger battery but also more power, better comfort, faster charging, probably better built and more reliable). Range could potentially be close to 100 miles in ideal conditions at lower speeds.
-
Oh yes, vastly better than an FXE by every measure except weight, but not a replacement for my SR/F sadly (which is what I was kinda hoping for).
Cas :)
-
Ah right. I just went back to the beginning of this thread and realised we were estimating it to be more like 15kWh, so that is a little disappointing given the weight. I'm a little confused about the stated charging time now though. They said 0-100% in under 3 hours at 6kW, even if we were to assume it averaged at 5kW then that's still going to be a full charge in under two hours. Yeah I know, still technically under 3 hours but why wouldn't they make it sound better by saying 2?
-
Honda has released video showcasing some of the features.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkQHfp9qRo0
349,44v Lithium-Ion battery.
Four ride modes.
Adjustable regen.
Reverse.
Walk mode.
Speed limit.
-
A lot of gears in there, i wonder what that does for noise/efficiency/heat
Also only appears to only have 6kw AC charging (less common here and you have to bring a cable with you)... boo
-
I can live with 6kW charging (seems to be all I get out of my "charge tank" anyway grr). The more I look at this bike the more I like it but I'm still going to find it hard to live with the tiny battery - I regularly do fast 60 mile trips, like nearly every day, and I feel like this would a) leave me on edge constantly about running it empty every day and b) massively increase the wear rate on the battery.
Given the tiny battery the DCFC seems like a bit of an odd addition really. You'd have to be a peculiar sort of character to ride 40 miles between half-hour DC stops five times in a day.
Cas :)