ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: NEW2elec on September 09, 2025, 09:09:52 AM
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From QuantumScape.com
https://www.quantumscape.com/quantumscape-and-powerco-debut-solid-state-batteries-in-ducati-motorcycle-at-iaa-mobility/
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is this your new damon? Asking for a friend
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MVetter
"Last I checked solid state batteries are so volatile that, if ruptured or damaged via something like a collision, the chemicals inside ignite on contact with not only air, but also ignite on contact with water. They also emit a deadly vapor that will most certainly kill the occupants of the vehicle and everyone around them. Has something changed?"
Yes something has changed.
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How big is the battery? Besides the chemical issues, which have largely been worked around, the biggest problem has been brittleness, which keeps the size down significantly so they don't bust up and quit working in a weeks time. If this is true, this could be a game changer for everyone, and it really is only a matter of time before something new pops.
Supercaps, now that they are really being put to the test, are not that much 'super' over chem. They don't last millions of cycles as originally once touted. In the case of bikes, their main problem is they can't go very high on voltages, like 3 volts, so for a huge app like a 400 volt battery, a lot of room would be wasted on isolation and dielectrical issues. Unless you were to run a 48 volt system, but now were talking huge amps, heat and weight for the conductors.
the sodium batteries may be better for longer term storage like power plants etc but has a lower power density so isn't a good fit for vehicles.
Aaron
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Sodium is already being successfully rolled out in urban vehicle applications - JAC/Yiwei Sehol E10X (Hina cells) and the JMEV EV3 (Farasis cells). Less power density but way safer, cheaper, and apparently faster charging too. Hopefully they will find their way into low-end motorcycles to make them competitive with ICE peers.
Cas :)
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but the biggest complaint is range, they go the opposite way for fixing that.
Aaron
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The biggest complaint about range is from people who don't own EVs... for everyone that does own an EV you very quickly figure out that you almost never go anywhere near as far as the ridiculously expensive heavy battery you bought can take you, so you're lugging around $10,000 and 500kg you didn't need to everywhere.
I now know for example that I would have been entirely happy with a car that only had 100 mile range instead of 240 miles. My next car will have a much smaller battery and be loads cheaper. Looking at that Renault 5.
Cas :)
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Truth matters little in this world. The kids been taught there is no such thing as truth, it's all about 'perception' and that's all that matters is your perception. If the trend on fakebook says it's not enough then it's not enough.
I can often put 100 miles a day on a bike it's not that hard to do, and having that range is very useful for me. if i decide to do a one day shot at the track thats 250 on the bike, 100 up and down and about 50 on the track. The hardest part is keeping the bike below 75 so i can get 100 miles off a single charge / trip without having to pull in to charge somewhere to finish the trip. Other people who like to ride / tour also need the extended range. in the case of a vehicle, people using it to haul stuff, absolutely need the bigger battery.
in your case if you are just puttering around town, your range is going to be probably double, so yah you don't need the bigger better bike, a cheaper one will do you just fine.
aaron
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Yes something has changed.
It's clearly not your gullibility.
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No, I cane it to work and back every day, day in, day out, 25 miles each way :) But I did recently do a cross-country trip back from Cornwall - 111 miles, got home with 10% remaining, wasn't hanging about but that's the reality of how fast you can ride on the road here.
Regarding the perception of truth, I think maybe it's high time we started teaching kids philosophy at school...
Cas :)
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Yes something has changed.
It's clearly not your gullibility.
Help help!
Morgan save us all with your insider knowledge from Zero's 2012 recalled burning battery pack designer Luke Workman.
Mercedes seems to think they just tested a solid state EQS that went over 700 miles.
Contact them please and tell them how impossible it is and how they risk killing all life, well likely in the whole universe.
You are our only hope.
Looks like The Electric Viking's channel is in on it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFZbgY9pNc
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minute 4:35 or so same weight and volume 25% more kwh contained in chemical energy. The guy won't say if that run was an 70 something km/hr or mi/hr. That is about as far as I got. My idea of game changing is 250 kw or more of charging with signs on the interstate and the ability to charge up with cash.
Is this a flame war? back in the usenet era before internet I understood is to just ignore was a good policy.
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new2elec is still salty because I called Damon a scam from day 1 and he routinely soiled himself with rage for several years while I mocked him for doing so.
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Fran, you say to pay in cash, do you mean real cash like shoving dollar bills into the machine, or would a credit card suffice?
i can understand the reluctance against using cash, genuine cash. it makes them extremely vulnerable, and now adds a lot of extra maintenance to it now as well. you gotta go empty the bill box out, unclog the jammed wet bill in there, the crap the vandal shoved into the slot bla bla.
some of the stations i have seen have similar, you go in pay the clerk and they can turn the thing on for like 10 dollars, anything left you go get your change. but leaving cash laying around unattended, that's just inviting uncle scritchie and aunt methyl to come steal it and break the thing. especially if it's an unattended / remote ish location w/o surveillance.
aaron
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I mean like for gasoline where you go in and hand them money and they turn on the pump. Perhaps most of you have multiple cards debit/ credit or the like. I am in Wv now and my card is from Monson Ma. There were unauthorized charges and the card got shut down. they shut it down a few times when I signed up for stuff that takes it out once a year and were suspicious. They can turn it back on if the charges are authorized but it takes a phone call to a real person during business hours. I need to go to the office in Ma to get a new card. I have also an account here in WV/Ohio. I got a new card but the deal was $35 and have it overnighted or wait a week or so. Neither would be of any good if I wanted to purchace gas or electric and got a message card refused.
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yah thats a bit rough, the problem with cash as mentioned, is people will prey on the station, vandalize it, try to steal the money every way imaginable, and the thing probably will be broke more times than not.
doesn't the company that owns where you charge often offer you the ability to pre pay? That is one thing i think plug share is trying to work on is, you put money on your ps account and when you show up... wherever... it pays them and lets you charge. that might be a viable work around. another option might be pre paid credit cards, get the refillable type that way they don't rape you as hard when refilling or a debit card.
most people don't like cash, because once a week or so, they gotta send someone out there to collect the money out of the thing, that's time and money spent, ie less profit on an already stupid thin profit margin market.f
aaron
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You can always tell when Morgan gets it wrong. He's a gas lighter and tries to talk about anything other than what was posted.
Of course when others are off in damn left field talking about how people pay for shit other than the fact that new battery tech could put an end to EV's current death march, I guess it fits right in.
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Please show me the times when I've been wrong and, while you're at it, can you explain your violent tendency to soil yourself? Like, what's that about?
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Here is another video youtube suggested for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cETbD2AUZIw
They say it is a good fit for high performance super sport motorcycle which is the market Ducati represents. I noticed the grip has wires tying it tight to the throtle tube. The steering stem does not bolt to the battery/engine like some other bikes.
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Fran , looks more of just concept, not that it's actually been built and working. pure lithium is much more reactive than the current chemistries out there now, and can be an issue in an accident. They also said if you listen, we still have the hurdles of building the thing, scaling it so it will fit in a bike, and some other issues. I don't know if they actually have a working bike yet really that has the components at size needed.
Tell you what though, if Ducatti does come out with an E bike id love to test one, or even better romp side by side with it on my ego to compare the two and have some fun.
from what they do show, the seat looks pretty wide on that thing, id think that might make it a bit of an issue moving around on track, having to get up and over that thing back and forth.
wonder what it would end up wighing and some of the other stats.
Aaron
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I think we’d all love to see a massive leap forward from solid state batteries, but it was “3 to 5 years away” 10 years ago and it still is now. It’s good that solid state cells are at least making their way into concept vehicles and small, premium mobile devices, but it’s not a guarantee that they will ever replace traditional Li-ion cells for EVs. When you look at the graveyard of Next Big Things, enthusiasts always assumed that engineering problems would be solved and financial or scaling problems would be overcome against the moving target of the dominant technology, which continues to improve every year.
Dominant battery tech for EVs has only changed once in over a hundred years, twice if you count the brief reign of NiMH. Solid state, sodium, zinc air, etc. were all supposed to be the Next Big Thing, and they either fizzled out or proved themselves to be better at certain things, worse at others. Li-ion may not be improving by leaps and bounds every year anymore, but it’s still getting cheaper and denser, and it’s going to be hard for any replacement technology to offer better energy density for less money while being just as safe.
Fantastical claims have to be taken into context. It’s easy to brag about short recharge times when you’re not offering a warranty to the public. Today’s li-ion cells could probably handle similar amperages, just not for a public product that has to meet its guaranteed performance for years under a variety of conditions.
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Existing lithium tech is adequate for at least another decade. There are already cells at 500Wh/kg density in production, roughly double what we have now, and that gets us to bikes of Zero's size and weight with 30kWh batteries, and that, to my mind, is all we need for a viable ICE replacement for all general motorcycle uses on and off road, covering everything from touring to commuting to whatever it is GSes are supposed to be for. Exotic applications like race bikes could go with solid state sooner but tbh nobody much cares about MotoGP racing in the grand scheme of things (which we know, because it's been axed).
Cas :)
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You're looking at the wrong number. Volumetric energy density is increasing slower than gravimetric energy density because making cars physically larger is something we as a society have decided is just fine actually but this is a problem for motorbikes which have much more restrictive form factors.
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I think those 500Wh/kg cells I referred to are the same size as current 250Wh/kg cells which was what was most interesting to me.
https://amprius.com/about/news-and-events/the-all-new-amprius-500-wh-kg-battery-platform-is-here/#:~:text=The%20record%20500%20Wh%2Fkg,l%20at%2025%C2%B0C.
Cas :)
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So, how about some specs?
what C rate? how many cycles? what's it's dielectric strength? can it work on a bigger form factor, what they shown you was a smaller application, maybe a few ah, what about something bigger to put into a car? how do they perform in adverse environments.
You have to look often at what they are not telling you, as much as the one or two powder puff items they are telling you.
I'll believe it when i see it actually running in cars, not just 'well one day we hope to......'
aaron
what id like to know is why they are not recycling much more of the lith today? they cry about how expensive the ore is bla bla, but you throw away tens of thousands of tons of old batteries every year? can't reuse that?
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Apparently the mixture of stuff in lithium batteries is tricky to disassemble into a state where it's easy to get at the expensive stuff. By "tricky" I mean "more expensive than just making more lithium currently". Probably a solvable or even already solved problem but not yet deployed at scale.
Cas :)
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I had a 350 Sebring for a while years ago when the 450 desmo was the "sport" model. Things are way different now. I think Ducati got all motorcycles kicked out of the pikes peak timed trial.
I believe the CEO that got the Volkswagen/Audi group to buy Ducati is the one that was adamant to market diesel automobiles that did not use DEF to the point of figuring out how to make them pass tests but not really conplying. Exactly how Ducati is going to be used going forward is something to watch.
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………
aaron
what id like to know is why they are not recycling much more of the lith today? they cry about how expensive the ore is bla bla, but you throw away tens of thousands of tons of old batteries every year? can't reuse that?
Battery recycling is in it’s infancy but it is a thing.
This is a long watch but you might find this video interesting
https://youtu.be/k30syplvCi0?si=x2z1dpYxbuU7e2pd
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ive been recycling lipo's for years. it's a little time consuming, but actually profitable, especially at the prices of nickle, cobalt etc today. Never really looked for a buyer for my lithium but got a bunch of it. kind of fun to play with but anyways.
someone is not making enough profit off it, they haven't figured how to rape the govt for a big fat juicy grant / subsidy yet on it. Then again the beancounters sometimes are fucking ignorant beyond capacity too. the don't understand real world, they look at a number in a book and think that is golden. I'll give you an example.
We have CFB boilers in the power plant, we have thermocouples we shove up through the bottom of the bed to monitor the temp. We order them ready to go. Our accountants, decided to instead order the ones that were not assembled, but instead order the plug head and we could put them together ourselves, why? because it was 5 dollars cheaper per element, so times the 32 elements they saved 160 dollars... ooh give that man a cupie doll. Ok, you stupid fuck piece of shit, it takes me roughly 30 minutes to get the thing assembled, THEN I have to apply the sealant (which you did not order, stupid fuck), and wait a few hours for that to dry. OOH and you pay me 54 dollars an hour.... so how much did you save per item? Why didn't you just order the part i told you to? why didn't you just do it the way we told you to do it?
I have a feeling the recycling these is the same way, oh but it's labor intensive it's not profitable. Well, by using the labor it saves you 3 extra steps of sifting and sorting, it saves you 50k gallons a year of hazmat waste disposal. Yes it's a bit more expensive up front but pays itself many fold over the course.
currently i rebuild batteries that failed, 9 out of 10 times it's a bms fault that caused the death, or a bad cell. The rest is fine, replace the 300 dollar bms, save a 3000 dollar battery. replace the bad cell, may end up eating an entire arm depending on failure mode, but save the rest.
soon you are going to have literally millions of tons of battery waste, what you going to do with it all? what about when it starts leeching 20 years after you buried it and tried to pretend it was gone forever? you can deal with it now, or half a century down the road when it's going to cost much much more to dig up a cubic mile of waste to process, than a convenient package you can handle in your shop.
NOT just America but the world needs to get out of it's disposable society mindset and start looking at building things to last again, or how to recycle / reuse things better.
Aaron
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It’s too bad you spent the time it would have taken to watch that video & enlightening yourself rather then spreading your ignorance.
Also you showed your age (or rather youth) on “the good ol’ days” of longevity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_longevity
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well, coming from the king of ignorance, ill take that as a compliment.
did AI tell you to say that or did you come up with that one all by yourself?
never mind, we already know.
Aaron
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Battery recycling is in it’s infancy but it is a thing.
This is a long watch but you might find this video interesting
https://youtu.be/k30syplvCi0?si=x2z1dpYxbuU7e2pd
Wow it seems there are a lot of rejects from the battery manufacturers.
I watch that guy sometimes he was giving Aptera a lot of coverage back when Carissa was active on here. I also saw him on another channel dismissing repair costs on electric vehicles because shortly there will hardly be any crashes. Is that one loaded with advertising more than normal? It seemed every 5 minutes or so. I watched another one on that channel after it dis assembling an electric motor.
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Didn’t Carissa put a deposit down for an Aptera?
Yeah, Sandy gets a bit excited sometimes on things that ultimately don’t pan out but I have faith in JB/Redwood.
Here’s another video on them …..
https://youtu.be/L0dAroYsF8M?si=zxM7kO0CY3JAxZBU
It’s exciting to see them making lithium battery after life a success.
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Instead of vehicles that can go 750 miles, they should take advantage of the technology to make vehicles that can go 375 miles and weigh half as much.
It's crazy to carry around 500 lb of dead weight everywhere we go. The average U.S. daily commute is 40 miles and there are lots of little errands to run. Without that dead weight, it might even get 400 miles at half size. Then, when it goes bad in 8-10 years, you've got half the replacement cost, or half the recycling problem.
Since charging is getting pretty fast these days (and they always like to brag about that), and there is so much charging available (with Tesla stations open to the public), the sweet spot may be even less -- maybe 260 to 300 miles.
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Curt, that makes a lot of sense but the mindset is, but WHAT IF....... I want to take a vacation to grandmaw's house, in bugtussle oklahoma, although i never have in the last 30 years i've lived in Florida, but what if???? Im gunna NEED that 4000 mile range. I don't want to find myself LACKING!!!!! .... and that is why everyone wants the huge range.
The funny thing, batteries would last much much longer if they kept the charge between say 20 and 80 percent, instead of topping it off every night, or every few days. but people insist on that too, because. what if i decide tomorrow morning, im going to go to grandmaws house, i gotts be ready, i don't want to find myself LACKING!!
Your mindset makes perfect sense, or, ok so you want to go on a long trip, once a year, maybe twice, why not save 2000 a year and just rent a car/truck for the week/weekend when it's vacation time?
Out here, one of the Tesla stations is right next to the grocery store. You could put it by walmart or wherever. That way while you are spending your hour or 2 doing your shopping, the vehicle is charging, at a zero lost time spot for you.
Aaron
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well, coming from the king of ignorance, ill take that as a compliment.
did AI tell you to say that or did you come up with that one all by yourself?
never mind, we already know.
Aaron
Now “we” are resorting to Gaslighting.
Sad
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Aaron, there's an even better mindset (I guess I've already been harping on it).
My Prius Prime PHEV does 30-50 miles on electric, then another 500 miles on 10 gallons of gas. If it could get 100 miles of range at the same weight and form factor, it could handle a pretty good commute. I think this combo is far more practical and environmentally friendly than BEVs. A bit more electric range could sway almost everyone away from BEVs.
A PHEV pickup truck could be appealing even in Bugtussle, OK (as long as their friends don't notice they rarely go to the gas station).
It's hard to imagine this new denser battery technology would have a longer life. That would be another reason to use only small ones. Quantumscape has been working on longevity issues for a while, because that was their huge problem when I talked to one of their ex employees 4 years ago.
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Longevity wouldn't be an issue if batteries cost 1/10th as much.
Hybrid tech is still a doomed idea. All that complexity and expense for the 10% of people who need it 10% of the time. It'll ultimately be sidelined by ubiquitous fast charging infrastructure. We are right now at the stage where petrol was in something like 1910. Another 50 years and there will be fast chargers literally everywhere. Or the ashes of a dead civilisation more likely but that's another topic :D
Cas :)
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Hybrids imo are compromises to try to persuade the hard nose ice=ers to come over to the dark side... or shall I say, enlightened side ::)
Here, just stick the tip in and see if you like it.
more parts to go wrong but they have their niche clientelle.
aaron
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Indeed, I have one myself :D Despite having put 40,000 miles on the Ioniq 5 and 25,000 miles on the Zero, she still insists she thinks she needs our RAV4 hybrid thing "in case we have to see your mum in Durham". My mum lives only 350 miles away, and my wife has seen her about once a year.
Cas :)