ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: smithy on July 02, 2025, 11:33:44 AM
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Hi All,
I'm toying with the idea of converting my Experia to belt drive, not a necessity, I'm doing it more as an experimental challenge. I know the swingarm needs to be removed to fit a belt and there's not a lot of room for a wide-ish belt....The Zero SR/F uses a 20mm wide belt and they produce similar torque to the Experia and they seem to run ok. The Experia will probably be restricted to a 20mm wide belt also due to the limited space currently between the chain and frame. The stock 520 chain is close to 19-20mm wide.
I'm in the process of trying to source appropriate sized "blank pulleys" and belt. I need to keep as close as possible to the 3.25:1 ratio so the speedo will read relatively close to correct. The 8mm pitch belt will need to be 2000mm long and 250 teeth due to the long swingarm and size of the pulleys required. The pulley's I'm thinking of are 34t front and 112 rear using 8mm pitch to keep as close as I can to the 3.25:1 ratio, it turns out to be 3.29:1 so pretty close. The correct rear pulley would be 110 teeth but blanks with that tooth count aren't readily available...so 112 it is. Attaching the pulleys to the bike will also be a challenge...I have thought about it and have a few ideas rattling around in my head....will be interesting to see what I come up with after sourcing the parts.
The pulley OD's will be very close to the stock sprocket sizes within a couple of mm's so hopefully it won't look too out of place. Continental do a "Contitech" carbon reinforced drive belt of the right dimentions, so I'll see if I can get hold of one to test my theory.
I may be restricted to an 8mm pitch belt & pulleys due to the ratios required, if I went to the more common 14mm pitch, the smallest front pully I can get is 27t and would be too big in diameter to fit in the space provided, the rear would need to be 88 teeth and would also be huge and probably wouldn't fit in the swingarm space. 11mm pitch pulleys and belts seem to be near impossible to source in the right sizes and 20mm width. The Zero uses an 11mm pitch drive belt system but the rear pulleys are huge.
I'm thinking of going with an 8mm pitch belt setup, which I though may not be strong enough...but my research seems to prove otherwise. Many Harley's use an aftermarket 8mm pitch belt for their primary drive, albeit a lot shorter & wider and they can handle plenty of torque between the crank and clutch basket in those big cubic inch engines. I'll also need to think about a possible tensioner similar to the one used by the old Buell bikes as the swingarm pivot and front pulley aren't on the same pivot centre like the Zero's. Although the belt drive Harley's don't seem to bother with a tensioner. Lots to think about and lots of potential machining work to do.
I will also try to make the system retrofittable/swapable back to chain drive easily if things don't work out as I'd hoped. Time will tell.
It won't be a cheap modification....but I'll certainly enjoy the challenge.
Thoughts for or against.??
Smithy.
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I am not too sure that the belt drive used for the Zeros are really OK.
Having owned an SR/F for half a year I liked the nearly totally noiseless propulsion, but I also heard a lot about sudden failures. My dealer sold Zeros besides Energicas and he had to organise a transport back from Norway because a Zero rider was stranded there with no chance to get a replacement for the broken belt.
Personally I like chains better even if the maintenance might appear to be a hassle. But you can easily measure the chain wear, you can also see and hear it. Even a totally messed chain will bring you home. What's going on inside a belt you never know until it's too late. And if you are regularly riding in wet & dirty conditions, a belt is also wearing down even faster than a chain.
Last point is, but this is only an asthetic aspect, I never liked the huge chain wheel on my Zero, destroys the good look IMO.
But in any case I wish you good luck with you undertaking!
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I'm all for belt drives as the noise reduction and cleanliness would be appreciated. I believe a tensioner would be required as the changing length under suspension movement would cause the belt to jump, I suspect the harleys get away with it as they have negligable suspension travel on the rear.
From experience with cycle gates carbon drive belts, they always reccomend going with the largest front sprocket that fits (in our case largest combination that maintains the correct ratio) as the belts aren't fond of tight radii
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I had 3 belts fail suddenly and without warning on my SR/F within 20,000 miles. Massive annoyance. I have upgraded to the 25mm belt from the DSR/X, and already feel vastly more confident that it's not going to snap.
Cas :)
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IMO it's not going to work, not enough room between the wheel and swingarm to fit a belt wide enough to have the strength required. But if your just looking for an engineering project and don't mine if the end result is non functional I'm all for it!
I suspect you have already been searching on McMaster for pulleys? You can buy blanks for the front and then machine them to accept the center part of a Energica sprocket and weld them together.
(https://i.ibb.co/spX99dwr/IMG-1308.jpg) (https://ibb.co/spX99dwr)
The rear is just about matching the sprocket carriers bolt pattern and spacing it to align the front and rear. You might be able to find dished pulleys for the rear if you need to manage a large offset. Worse case you could redesign the carrier that fits into the cush drive of the rear wheel.
There is no way a 8mm belt would not snap like a shoelace when attached to the Experia, you really need to aim to at a minimum match what Zero is doing and they are already notorious for snapping belts.
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my unqualified opinion, i think the experia is going to make a bit more torque and probably pop the thing a bit faster. That's one thing that bike can give you is stubborn pull.
Aaron
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All good thoughts guys....and you've all given me plenty of food for thought....Looks like i'll be doing a lot of thinking.
@Demoni, the welding of the Experia sprocket centre, (which is also the same as the Aprilia Tuono), to a matching pulley to get the required offset sounds like a good idea. I did the measurement of the rear pulley and although it will be very close, it should fit in the swingarm space if I get the offset correct, it's essentially the same overall diameter as the stock 52 tooth sprocket, which has ~10mm clearance.
I'd love to run an 11mm pitch 20mm wide belt like the Zero's but I cannot easily find one in the correct length and width...I'll need ~2000mm length and 182 teeth to mate up with the pulley ratio I'm thinking of and the front pulley will likely be too large in diameter to fit anyway...more thinking required. The BMW F800GT runs an 11mm pitch 182 tooth belt but it's 34mm wide. The BMW F800 also runs an 80tooth rear pulley which might work if I could find a 25 tooth front pulley...but their front pulley is 40teeth...much too big unfortunately....and only a 2.0:1 ratio, belt is 34mm wide anyway and would probably be too wide to fit.
I can however easily get a 2000mm long, 8mm pitch, 20mm wide, 250 tooth belt which in theory, will mate up with my desired pulley sizes. Whether the 8mm pitch Contitech "Carbon" belt will be strong enough is the issue I suspect. If it works, great...if not, I can easily revert back to the normal 520 chain & sprockets.
Thanks again gents, you've given me plenty to think about.
Smithy.
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It'd be nice if anyone had the cad files for our bikes, that would make it easy to do test fits for just about anything.
Looking at those conti synchrochain belts I notice a conspicuous lack of speificiations regarding torque and speeds
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It'd be nice if anyone had the cad files for our bikes, that would make it easy to do test fits for just about anything.
Looking at those conti synchrochain belts I notice a conspicuous lack of speificiations regarding torque and speeds
This is the 8mm pitch belt I was able to source:
https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p2099766/ContiTech-SCC8M2000X21-Synchrochain-Carbon-Timing-Belt-21mm-Width-2000mm-Length-250-Teeth/product_info.html
It mentions 4150N of "peripheral force" whatever that means..??
Smithy.
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……. The BMW F800GT runs an 11mm pitch 182 tooth belt but it's 34mm wide.....
Smithy.
I wonder how hard it would be to successfully cut 14mm off the width?
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……. The BMW F800GT runs an 11mm pitch 182 tooth belt but it's 34mm wide.....
Smithy.
I wonder how hard it would be to successfully cut 14mm off the width?
Not easy I'd imagine...but then getting 20mm wide 11mm pitch pulleys in the right tooth count would be the issue I suspect.
Smithy.
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It mentions 4150N of "peripheral force" whatever that means..??
Smithy.
I assume thats either the lateral force on the "tooth" or the tension on the outer face of the belt. Either way, I would be a little wary of the value, as thats only 420 odd kgf. While 0-100km/h in 3.5s is only 0.8g, the arse dyno says that there is more force in that 70-100 range, which with 260kg bike plus rider doesn't leave much headspace.
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……. The BMW F800GT runs an 11mm pitch 182 tooth belt but it's 34mm wide.....
Smithy.
I wonder how hard it would be to successfully cut 14mm off the width?
Contact Gates & ask?
https://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/
Not easy I'd imagine...but then getting 20mm wide 11mm pitch pulleys in the right tooth count would be the issue I suspect.
Smithy.
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id think cutting anything off the belt would severely compromise it's integrity. Leaving a ragged side, might be opening yourself up for a damage area for tearing and other disassembly to get to work at.
Aaron
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All good thoughts guys....and you've all given me plenty of food for thought....Looks like i'll be doing a lot of thinking.
@Demoni, the welding of the Experia sprocket centre, (which is also the same as the Aprilia Tuono), to a matching pulley to get the required offset sounds like a good idea. I did the measurement of the rear pulley and although it will be very close, it should fit in the swingarm space if I get the offset correct, it's essentially the same overall diameter as the stock 52 tooth sprocket, which has ~10mm clearance.
Did a little field work for ya. Looks if you lined everything up perfectly there is 24mm between face of the motor and the inner face of the swingarm. Meaning you should be able to squeeze a 20mm bolt and pulleys in there.
Also you can download 3d files of every part Mcmaster sells. If you have a 3d printer you can import that into a slicer and print prototype parts.
(https://i.ibb.co/xKKBsjqq/IMG-1309.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4wwXfTRR)
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Contact Gates & ask?
https://www.gatesaustralia.com.au/
I'm not sure Gates make toothed pulleys, only smooth idler pulleys & belts I believe....but I stand corrected.
Smithy.
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All good thoughts guys....and you've all given me plenty of food for thought....Looks like i'll be doing a lot of thinking.
@Demoni, the welding of the Experia sprocket centre, (which is also the same as the Aprilia Tuono), to a matching pulley to get the required offset sounds like a good idea. I did the measurement of the rear pulley and although it will be very close, it should fit in the swingarm space if I get the offset correct, it's essentially the same overall diameter as the stock 52 tooth sprocket, which has ~10mm clearance.
Did a little field work for ya. Looks if you lined everything up perfectly there is 24mm between face of the motor and the inner face of the swingarm. Meaning you should be able to squeeze a 20mm bolt and pulleys in there.
Also you can download 3d files of every part Mcmaster sells. If you have a 3d printer you can import that into a slicer and print prototype parts.
(https://i.ibb.co/xKKBsjqq/IMG-1309.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4wwXfTRR)
Wow...thank you for that.....and yes, I do have 3D printers...two normal filament printers and a resin printer.
What bike is that by the way..?? Doesn't look like an Experia..??
Smithy.
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maybe whats left of my ego heh.
Aaron
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I'm not sure Gates make toothed pulleys, only smooth idler pulleys & belts I believe....but I stand corrected.
Smithy.
[/quote]
Gates absolutely offer quite a number of toothed pulleys (and can even be swindled into prototyping for aspiring manufacturers.....)
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Wow...thank you for that.....and yes, I do have 3D printers...two normal filament printers and a resin printer.
What bike is that by the way..?? Doesn't look like an Experia..??
Smithy.
Your printers will be super handy in confirming part fitment and what modifications need to be made to the base parts. Easier and cheaper to squirt out some plastic before dropping $$ on parts. I also have a FDM and a resin printer, they are invaluable tools.
Yea their 3d files are super handy. If you have fusion 360 or another CAD program you can import the 3D files and modify them. Let me know if you need assistance with any turning, I have a PM-1130V and would be happy to assist.
That photo is of a EGO modified to accept an Experia swingarm. Little side project I'm working on in my spare time. I'll make a post about it once it's complete. The pulley is for another project...
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Your printers will be super handy in confirming part fitment and what modifications need to be made to the base parts. Easier and cheaper to squirt out some plastic before dropping $$ on parts. I also have a FDM and a resin printer, they are invaluable tools.
Yea their 3d files are super handy. If you have fusion 360 or another CAD program you can import the 3D files and modify them. Let me know if you need assistance with any turning, I have a PM-1130V and would be happy to assist.
That photo is of a EGO modified to accept an Experia swingarm. Little side project I'm working on in my spare time. I'll make a post about it once it's complete. The pulley is for another project...
Great information Sir...thank you..!
I might take you up on the machining offer...although I do have a small metal working lathe at home in the shed.
Smithy.
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The smaller rear sprocket on the Expria compared to the Zero will result in higher force in the belt for the same wheel torque. I suspect, as other have, that the 20mm wide belt will not offer great durability with that increased force, but I suspect it will be able to handle the full torque but won't last very long. If you design your system to utilize as large of sprockets as you can reasonably fit, that will minimize the force in the belt and will probably be your best chance at making something that will last a while.
Also, I have some experience cutting belts to different widths, and it is actually quite easy and works just fine. Just setup a small jig that holds a sharp blade rigid and has a guide to keep the belt width accurate and pull it through. Gates belts are actually manufactured in really wide sections and cut down to the desired width.
Here are some things to note:
The current Zero belt is 11mm pitch, which for a given width can handle more force than an 8mm pitch belt.
Zero used a 14mm wide 8mm pitch belt on their 2014 SR (144 Nm torque I think) and had a 30t front sprocket and 132T rear sprocket.
Zero changed to a 17mm wide 11mm pitch belt in 2018
Zero introduced a 20mm wide 11mm pitch belt with the SR/F in 2020
Zero introduced a 25mm wide 11mm pitch belt with the DSR/X in 2023
So you can see the general trend there to make the belt system stronger. The 20mm wide 8mm pitch belt you are thinking of using should have about 50% more force capability than the 14mm wide 8mm pitch belt that Zero used on a production vehicle had. If you design your system to use around 130t wheel sprocket (the same as the Zero used, and is about as big as you can fit next to a motorcycle wheel), you should be able to handle about 200Nm of torque at the front sprocket. I am not sure what the Experia gear ratio is but it is lower than the Zero, so your font sprocket will have to be larger than what was used on the Zero Motor to maintain the same gear ratio as the stock Experia . That will significantly improve the belt system's durability, but it might be hard to fit, so you might have to go with a smaller wheel and motor sprocket to fit.
-ryan
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smaller pulleys / etc are also going to require more tension to keep the belt from slipping in them, that puts more pressure / stress on bearings which over time could shorten their life. just something to think about.
aaron
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The smaller rear sprocket on the Expria compared to the Zero will result in higher force in the belt for the same wheel torque. I suspect, as other have, that the 20mm wide belt will not offer great durability with that increased force, but I suspect it will be able to handle the full torque but won't last very long. If you design your system to utilize as large of sprockets as you can reasonably fit, that will minimize the force in the belt and will probably be your best chance at making something that will last a while.
Also, I have some experience cutting belts to different widths, and it is actually quite easy and works just fine. Just setup a small jig that holds a sharp blade rigid and has a guide to keep the belt width accurate and pull it through. Gates belts are actually manufactured in really wide sections and cut down to the desired width.
Here are some things to note:
The current Zero belt is 11mm pitch, which for a given width can handle more force than an 8mm pitch belt.
Zero used a 14mm wide 8mm pitch belt on their 2014 SR (144 Nm torque I think) and had a 30t front sprocket and 132T rear sprocket.
Zero changed to a 17mm wide 11mm pitch belt in 2018
Zero introduced a 20mm wide 11mm pitch belt with the SR/F in 2020
Zero introduced a 25mm wide 11mm pitch belt with the DSR/X in 2023
So you can see the general trend there to make the belt system stronger. The 20mm wide 8mm pitch belt you are thinking of using should have about 50% more force capability than the 14mm wide 8mm pitch belt that Zero used on a production vehicle had. If you design your system to use around 130t wheel sprocket (the same as the Zero used, and is about as big as you can fit next to a motorcycle wheel), you should be able to handle about 200Nm of torque at the front sprocket. I am not sure what the Experia gear ratio is but it is lower than the Zero, so your font sprocket will have to be larger than what was used on the Zero Motor to maintain the same gear ratio as the stock Experia . That will significantly improve the belt system's durability, but it might be hard to fit, so you might have to go with a smaller wheel and motor sprocket to fit.
-ryan
Thanks Ryan....lots good info there...I've also been looking at an 11mm pitch belt system as used on the BMW F800 GT....The rear pulley is 80 teeth and just a little bigger in diameter than the Experia rear sprocket and I can use a cut down Experia rear sprocket to hold it...the front however is 40 teeth so only a 2:1 ratio...There is a Kawasaki EN440 which also uses an 11mm pitch system and a 25tooth front pulley, I can also get a belt from the BMW which is the correct tooth count, 182....might be worth investigating.
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Been thinking about this ... I can't quite see how the size of the rear pulley affects the force on the belt. The force is converted to a simple linear tension force by the front pulley, and this reaches the rear pulley the same no matter how big it is. The load is then spread out over the edges of all of the teeth on the rear pulley until it exits at the bottom. The only factor affecting the force experienced at the rear is the size of the front.
Cas :)
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Been thinking about this ... I can't quite see how the size of the rear pulley affects the force on the belt. The force is converted to a simple linear tension force by the front pulley, and this reaches the rear pulley the same no matter how big it is. The load is then spread out over the edges of all of the teeth on the rear pulley until it exits at the bottom. The only factor affecting the force experienced at the rear is the size of the front.
Cas :)
You are right, the size of the rear sprocket on its own doesn't contribute to the force in the belt (at least not from motor torque), however if the system is designed to have about the same ratio as the original gearing, when you make the rear sprocket larger, the front sprocket gets larger too to maintain the same ratio. And since the peak motor torque will be the same regardless of the sprocket size, the larger front sprocket will impart less force into the belt that a small sprocket, therefore under that assumption, a larger rear sprocket will result in less force in the belt. Example if the motor does 100Nm a sprocket with 50mm radius will result in 2000N in the belt (100Nm / 0.050m = 2000N), if you reduce the front sprocket size to 40mm radius (also adjusting the rear sprocket to be smaller to maintain the same front:rear ratio) the force goes up to 2500N in the belt when the motor is delivering 100Nm.
That said, the same math is true for when the rear wheel imparts force into the belt through its sprocket, a larger wheel sprocket will impart less force into the belt when the wheel tries to accelerate the motor. This is easiest to visualize by picturing what happens when the wheel lifts into the air while on throttle. In the air, the wheel will accelerate quite quickly as there is no longer any force from the road preventing the wheel acceleration, then when the wheel hits the ground again the tire's surface speed could be much faster than the ground speed, and the force of the wheel contacting the ground could be high resulting in excellent traction to slow that wheel back down to ground speed very quickly and as the wheel slows down it will create a force in the belt to slow the motor down too. That, combined with the motor probably still delivering forward torque from throttle demand results is a significant shock load and force to the belt. Also, when the swingarm goes through its travel the belt will also cause the motor to rotate, typically that doesn't cause much motion (the amount of rotation will be approximately equal to the rotation of the swingarm around its pivot), and the nature of the physics around that motion (mainly due to suspension) tends to restrict the motor acceleration caused by suspension travel, so it is generally not a belt design consideration.
-ryan
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More power!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DEn_JSdavCg&pp=0gcJCdgJAYcqIYzv (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DEn_JSdavCg&pp=0gcJCdgJAYcqIYzv)
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question is bullshit off the top.
you will never gain power.... just lose less.
in theory the belt should do better, it weighs less, less articulation so should lose less, however longevity plays into it as well. how well does it handle shock, and extreme forces and overloads on it, oh yah ... pop!! belts don't handle abuse as well as a chain does.
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question is bullshit off the top.
you will never gain power.... just lose less.
in theory the belt should do better, it weighs less, less articulation so should lose less, however longevity plays into it as well. how well does it handle shock, and extreme forces and overloads on it, oh yah ... pop!! belts don't handle abuse as well as a chain does.
Uhh?
The belt GAINED approximately 1 additional HP @ the rear wheel over the chain.
I question your claim that the belt “should do better” due to “less articulation”.
The belt has less then half the mass & flexes vrs pivots links imparting energy loss due to friction.
Regarding longevity… my last belt lasted 31.5k miles.
My 1st belt, not so much (too much initial fun).
Belts don’t do dirt/mud will tho (don’t ask how I know).
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the belt can not GAIN any power, it does not produce power, only the engine does that. the belt just transmits the power to the wheel, therefore it didn't gain it just lost less of the power the engine created. You might say it preserved power, there is no GAIN, just less loss.
Aaron
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the belt can not GAIN any power, it does not produce power, only the engine does that. the belt just transmits the power to the wheel, therefore it didn't gain it just lost less of the power the engine created. You might say it preserved power, there is no GAIN, just less loss.
Aaron
Delta HP
Belt transmits 1 greater then chain thus is additive (net positive) over chain drive in transferring energy to rear wheel.
You see things differently so let’s agree to disagree.
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TRANSFERRNG, not a gain, nothing was added, just maintained, just more efficiency, less loss.
agreed, lets just drop it, it's not worth the discussion.
Aaron
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Hi All,
Just following up on this...I've managed to source a few items to begin "mocking up" a belt drive system for the Experia....bearing in mind I wish to keep the ability to go back to chain & sprockets if I need to. In the pic you can see a the general idea...I'm still not sure if I need to run a tensioner or not, I probably will on the lower belt run similar to a Buell...this belt drive is taken from a BMW F800GT & F650 "Scarver" and they have a similar setup, but no tensioner...albeit run on the right side of the bike.
I used an old "Vortex" 52t rear sprocket I had used previously and just machined the teeth off and essentially just bolted the BMW pulley to it with spacers to get the pulley in the correct orientation whilst missing the swingarm on the left inside of the swingarm...there's ~1.5mm clearance between the pulley and swingarm....which is handy. Time will tell if it's a viable setup...or just a pipedream.
Thoughts..??
Smithy.
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Another pic from the rear.
The belt is a Continental CT1208...182 tooth, 11mm pitch, 2000mm long & 34mm wide, (~1 3/8"), and is the same belt as used on the BMW F800GT. I could'nt find a slightly narrower "off the shelf" belt with the same tooth count which would have been nice...but not to be. Clearance to the frame just above the swingarm pivot is minimal.. :-\
Smithy.
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Beautiful work! Did you mill that rear sprocket yourself?
Looking forward to the first ride impressions!
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that looks sweet.
not sure if you'd need a tensioner, let alone where to put it. just keep close eye on the belt, check it every week / few hundred miles etc make sure it's the same tension. what you might want to do is get it where you want it at, and mark that span, ie 24 mm of flex up and down, then when you check it, ok it's now 27 mm, give the rear adjuster a face or two adjustment to snug it up, and keep track that way.
id imagine unless you really romp the shit out of it, if it got too loose you should hear the tooth slippage before it starts actually tearing teeth off the belt, and know, time to adjust. just to be safe, id keep a small breaker, a 38 mm?? is it for the rear and a 13mm for the adjustment bolts in the tank case just to have it handy in case you need to make adjustments mid trip. the best way is a torque wrench obviously for re tightening rear axle but if you've been at it a while, you can 'feel' the 70 nm fairly accurate.
Aaron
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Beautiful work! Did you mill that rear sprocket yourself?
Looking forward to the first ride impressions!
The sprocket is just an old Vortex one I had used and worn out, I just milled the teeth off to the correct diameter so it fits inside the BMW pulley...seems to fit nicely...and can obviously take the torque, it had ~15,000km on it when removed/replaced.
I suspect the only difference between this and the old chain/sprocket setup will be the lack chain/sprocket noise...the belt should essentially be silent. I'm running a ratio as close to what I had as I could get given the pulley tooth counts available. The original ratio is 15/52 or 3.466.....I changed it to 16/52 which is 3.250, this has the speedo working very close to perfect, within 1kmh of actual.....the pulleys I'm now using are 28/80 which is only 2.857...but as mentioned....nothing else closer is available that will fit on the bike without clearance issues.
Smithy.
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how much sprocket noise was there? I found that on the experia, most of the noise was the high regen causing it, and not so much chain noise. if you idled it, it was pretty silent until you loaded it up, then the whirrr, was the motor being a generator.
aaron
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Whats going on here?
(http://)
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if that's a roller and you figure out a way to move it, that's your tensioner.
Aaron
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Whats going on here?
(http://)
That's the lower chain/frame slider, for want of a better word, it's a rubbery plastic thing (similar to the swingarm protector) which is screwed to the inside of the lower frame, fairly easy to remove...I have removed it now so there's no interference with the belt. I'll take some more detailed photos when I get a chance.
Smithy.
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if that's a roller and you figure out a way to move it, that's your tensioner.
Aaron
No, not a roller unfortunately...although that would kill two birds with one stone.
I was thinking more along the lines of this in the pic below for a tensioner if required. I imagine I could quite easily make up a suitable bracket to fit it to the Experia. I just need to make sure the side stand would not interfere with it.
A tensioner like this, I suspect, would allow correct tension of the belt during all swingarm arc movement either side of neutral. I have found the arc of the swingarm is at it's longest with the weight of the bike sitting on the wheel....with rider the sag is ~30mm or so depending on rider weight...as the swingarm moves above/below "neutral", the belt loses tension.....a tensioner would then be ideal in this situation.
Smithy.
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how much sprocket noise was there? I found that on the experia, most of the noise was the high regen causing it, and not so much chain noise. if you idled it, it was pretty silent until you loaded it up, then the whirrr, was the motor being a generator.
aaron
Not a great deal to be honest...I'm not too worried about the noise, it is what it is....I just hate the "chain spooge" and chain maintenance/lubing. A belt "should" outlast a chain/sprockets by a considerable amount unless abused.
Again...this is just an experiment to see if it can be done....so far so good..!
Smithy.
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That's true on longevity maybe, but we have seen numerous times on the Zero, or is it the livewire, first time that belt gets torqued really hard, someone trying a dead climb up a curb or other goofiness, that belt will pop in a heartbeat. A chain wont. Im pretty sure if you dead force it, that experia can spin that tire pretty easy. What is that kind of torque going to do on a belt? or even coming off a train trellace hard. granted im probably the only clown who jumps them at fast speeds but id bet that landing after going airborn will torque the hell out of a belt. I can see shitty roads and whoop de whoops on construction roads causing grief too.
Aaron
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That's true on longevity maybe, but we have seen numerous times on the Zero, or is it the livewire, first time that belt gets torqued really hard, someone trying a dead climb up a curb or other goofiness, that belt will pop in a heartbeat. A chain wont. Im pretty sure if you dead force it, that experia can spin that tire pretty easy. What is that kind of torque going to do on a belt? or even coming off a train trellace hard. granted im probably the only clown who jumps them at fast speeds but id bet that landing after going airborn will torque the hell out of a belt. I can see shitty roads and whoop de whoops on construction roads causing grief too.
Aaron
Yeah...a little common sense might be required....but the belt I'm using is considerably wider @34mm than the belt on say a Zero SRF witch is only 20mm and they seem to be ok unless they're abused. The tensile strength of modern belts these days is actually pretty amazing...considering they're nothing more than a glorified rubber band.
My next door neighbor has a 117ci Harley which has a considerable amount of torque and weighs in excess of 300kg, it only has a 1" drive belt....he's had the bike for nearly 3 years and it's still on the same belt...which baffles the imagination.
Smithy.
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that frame slider, i could see maybe an occasional rub but distorting the drive path that much, that would be a problem, being it's not a normally rolling element, like a pulley. The friction would definitely be bad. how much is the bend when the bike flexes? You might want to keep that off there.
Aaron
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that frame slider, i could see maybe an occasional rub but distorting the drive path that much, that would be a problem, being it's not a normally rolling element, like a pulley. The friction would definitely be bad. how much is the bend when the bike flexes? You might want to keep that off there.
Aaron
The "lower" plastic frame slider in mainly there for chain slap under power I suspect....it hasn't been touched by the chain though and is in new condition even though the bike has done 40k km. It isn't there anymore and will only be refitted if/when I refit the chain/sprocket system.
The belt should not go near the lower frame in operation as there is always a considerable amount of tension on the belt. I'm still thinking of running a tensioner like the one I showed previously....just need to make up a mounting bracket...a little engineering is required there methinks.
I'll eleaborate more when the whole system is up and running and bugs ironed out.
Smithy.
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The belt is a Continental CT1208...182 tooth, 11mm pitch, 2000mm long & 34mm wide, (~1 3/8"), and is the same belt as used on the BMW F800GT. I could'nt find a slightly narrower belt with the same tooth count which would have been nice...but not to be. Clearance to the frame just above the swingarm pivot is minimal.. :-\
Smithy.
At the factory, belts are made in continuous wide batches & then cut to exact width for multiple individual belts so you should be able to accurately trim your belt as needed (just need to figure out how).
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At the factory, belts are made in continuous wide batches & then cut to exact width for multiple individual belts so you should be able to accurately trim your belt as needed (just need to figure out how).
There was a chap on one of the Harley groups who did "slice" his belt to a narrower width to accommodate a wider rear tyre...he made up a belt holding fixture which allowed it to be "pulled" through the fixture which had a sharp blade fixed in it to get the required width...as you mentioned...that's all they do at the factory when making belts.
I'd like to avoid making the belt narrower if I can due to the torque the electric bikes make from zero rpm, I might be being a little paranoid though, some 300kg+ Harleys run a 1" belt without issue and they put out a decent amount of torque.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Just to follow up on this project...
I went for a ~100km run today, to test the belt setup.....no tensioner fitted as the parts I ordered for it haven't arrived yet. All seemed to go well, it's exceptionally smooth...although electric bikes tend to be smooth anyway.....gone are the chain & sprocket noise and vibrations, I wasn't even aware the sprockets and chain had any vibration....I stand corrected.
As you may all be aware, the belt and rear pulley are taken from a BMW F800GT whilst the front pulley is a modified BMW F650 CS "Scarver" item. Neither of these bikes use a tensioner either so I was fairly confident it would work ok. I didn't do any full throttle pulls as I still don't know the capacity of the belt, I'll creep up on it slowly, I suspect it will probably be ok though.
So far so good..! I won't call it a success until a decent amount of miles/kms have been travelled without issue. I am also looking at a front pulley with a tooth count which will be a lot closer to optimal...this will take time to organise and setup though. For the ideal pulley ratio, a 16/52 sprocket setup has the speedo reading near perfect which is 3.25:1....to get a belt pulley of the same ratio I need a 24.6 tooth front pulley...so I'll go for a 25/80 toothcount, or a ratio of 3.20.... currently it's 28/80 which is 2.86:1...this throws the speedo out fair way unfortunately.
I'll report back when I have all the required parts and the machining and assembly has been completed.
Smithy
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smithy most people have their phones on their bikes when they ride anyways right? do you? just open up waze or an app called gps essentials and you can get real time speed right there. i have my phone to run the dragy app when im riding spirited and it does a decent job, ill have to look but i got the ribelle dialed in so the mph is dead snot on from basically 0 to 150+ even double checked with my airbag suit and it's right on the money now.
Just a friendly reminder, tire size will set you off too. if i throw some 205s on because im going to be dragging on a saturday, the speed is off a bit.
in theory your rimsize could too somewhat... if were looking for needle accuracy :D
Aaron
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smithy most people have their phones on their bikes when they ride anyways right? do you? just open up waze or an app called gps essentials and you can get real time speed right there. i have my phone to run the dragy app when im riding spirited and it does a decent job, ill have to look but i got the ribelle dialed in so the mph is dead snot on from basically 0 to 150+ even double checked with my airbag suit and it's right on the money now.
Just a friendly reminder, tire size will set you off too. if i throw some 205s on because im going to be dragging on a saturday, the speed is off a bit.
in theory your rimsize could too somewhat... if were looking for needle accuracy :D
Aaron
Yeah...I had my phone "speedo app" running....@100kmh on the GPS it was showing ~90kmh on the bike speedo...so ~10% under reading. Once I get the front pulley size sorted, I'll go for a 25 tooth item, it's 28 tooth currently, that should get it back to very close.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Another small update...I've covered ~1400km on the belt drive since fitting thus far. No issues to speak of and there's no strange wear or noises that I can detect.
I'm still on the search for a 25T front pulley, I have found one or two but they'll require a significant amount of "modification" to fit the Experia.
I rode the bike into work this morning, this trip is 50km each way and has 90% 100kmh motorway running....so nothing real strenuous for the belt/pulleys. I still have not fitted a tensioner, I do have all the parts required...but I'm still undecided....still trying to figure out if it is really necessary....as mentioned previously, the bikes the original parts come from don't use a tensioner of any sort. Both of these being the BMW F800GT and F650CS, as can be seen in the pic...no tensioner.
So far, so good.
Smithy.
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if it's not giving you any grief then really no need for extra parts and complexity id think.
if you don't plan on really stomping on it or something that is going to wildly torque the belt to the point it might jump, you really shouldn't have to worry if it's lasting this long so far.
aaron
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awesome setup!
you mentioned the process for adapting the rear sprocket to bolt on the pulley, but not the front.
Did you end up doing the chop&weld approach or were the bmw splines able to be massaged to fit?
edit: Do you have to pull the swingarm pivot bolt to mount up? That was mildly annoying on the zero belts.
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…………I still have not fitted a tensioner, I do have all the parts required...but I'm still undecided....still trying to figure out if it is really necessary....as mentioned previously, the bikes the original parts come from don't use a tensioner of any sort. Both of these being the BMW F800GT and F650CS, as can be seen in the pic...no tensioner.
So far, so good.
Smithy.
How much belt “slop” on your install vs the BMW during suspension travel?
The way I see it, an auto tensioner is only needed if the “slop” is excessive without it.
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…………I still have not fitted a tensioner, I do have all the parts required...but I'm still undecided....still trying to figure out if it is really necessary....as mentioned previously, the bikes the original parts come from don't use a tensioner of any sort. Both of these being the BMW F800GT and F650CS, as can be seen in the pic...no tensioner.
So far, so good.
Smithy.
How much belt “slop” on your install vs the BMW during suspension travel?
The way I see it, an auto tensioner is only needed if the “slop” is excessive without it.
There's is no slop at all, I use the 50hz tension requirement that many belt drive bikes use.
Smithy.
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To be clear I ment belt tension on full swingarm travel of both the BMW set up(s) & your’s.
If you’re setup yields constant tension (but not excessive) at every point in the swingarm travel then I can’t see how/why an auto tensioner is needed.
I’m thinking you could use a ratchet strap to compress the rear shock so the belt tension can be checked full travel of swingarm.
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@smithy - but if you are south of the equator, don't you need a left handed sinewave on your hertz-o-meter? Don't want your coriolis swirling your boreallis backwards on that wheel now ! You might want to flush the toilet to see which way the water spins just to be sure ;)
Aaron
ps did you try sprocketcenter.com for your front pulley? they have all kinds of interesting and sometimes off the wall stuff for bikes. if this setup is working nicely for you, what are you expecting / hoping to do with the different size up front?
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To be clear I ment belt tension on full swingarm travel of both the BMW set up(s) & your’s.
If you’re setup yields constant tension (but not excessive) at every point in the swingarm travel then I can’t see how/why an auto tensioner is needed.
I’m thinking you could use a ratchet strap to compress the rear shock so the belt tension can be checked full travel of swingarm.
The swingarm is at it's longest with rider aboard, the tension is obviously not constant through the entire travel, it is less at full travel in either way....the BMW F800GT is the same and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects.
Good idea with the ratchet strap...I might give it a shot and see exactly what happens. The swingarm is very long compared to a lot of other bikes so the arc difference is not too drastic.
I have "mocked up" a constant tension tensioner just in case. Thoughts..??
Smithy.
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@smithy - but if you are south of the equator, don't you need a left handed sinewave on your hertz-o-meter? Don't want your coriolis swirling your boreallis backwards on that wheel now ! You might want to flush the toilet to see which way the water spins just to be sure ;)
Aaron
ps did you try sprocketcenter.com for your front pulley? they have all kinds of interesting and sometimes off the wall stuff for bikes. if this setup is working nicely for you, what are you expecting / hoping to do with the different size up front?
Hi Aaron,
It is indeed more difficult working whilst upside-down..! ;D
With the front pulley, it is currently 28 tooth which has a considerable "overdrive" compared to the desired ratio, my speedo reads ~10kmh low vs gps actual.. Ideally I would like to have a 25 tooth front pulley, finding one which is compatible and easily modified is proving difficult...I could get one made but it would cost a small fortune for a "one-off". I do have a 26 tooth pulley coming hopefully next week, This will give a much closer to ideal ratio than the current 28T. It's for a 40mm wide belt so I'll attempt to get that one modified to suit...and fitted in the next couple of weekends. This will mean the rear wheel will need to come back 11mm more than it is now, there's not much adjustment left but I cannot find a slightly shorter belt with the same dimensions. Alternately I can leave the wheel where it is and fit the tensioner to take up the difference...this will keep a constant belt tension no matter the swingarm position. Swingarm pivot/belt clearance then becomes an issue due to the smaller diameter pulley...time will tell.
I have been riding the bike all week to work and back....and again this weekend for several hundred km's without any issues, getting close to 2000kms on the belt system so far...the belt appears to be unaffected with no strange wear or noises, I haven't even had to adjust the belt tension either, which is promising. Biggest plus for me is the lack of chain/sprocket noise, constant chain ajustment and chain lube all over the back of the bike and wheel. So far, so good.
Smithy.
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Too bad Energica is not back fully yet. A simple software fix to let you put in sprocket sizes would work perfectly too for the speedo instead of diddling with pulleys sprockets etc. The race software has that and ive got mine dialed in perfectly. Id not get too overworked on making the speedometer perfect that it causes an overengineering nightmare. You could always put 205's on the back too to make up the difference a bit :D
Aaron
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Too bad Energica is not back fully yet. A simple software fix to let you put in sprocket sizes would work perfectly too for the speedo instead of diddling with pulleys sprockets etc. The race software has that and ive got mine dialed in perfectly. Id not get too overworked on making the speedometer perfect that it causes an overengineering nightmare. You could always put 205's on the back too to make up the difference a bit :D
Aaron
Would be nice if a simple software tweak could sort it...however....dropping the front pulley size will have it accelerating a bit better....with the current overdrive, she's a bit lazy off the line....cruising and higher speeds are lower motor rpm wise though.
Smithy.
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Biggest plus for me is the lack of chain/sprocket noise, constant chain ajustment and chain lube all over the back of the bike and wheel.
My suggestion for anyone feeling the same: switch to PTFE based dry chain lube spray. You apply a layer, wait for a minute and wipe the excess off. That's it. No mess anymore. Relubing every 400-500 km or after riding in wet conditions.
My current chain has seen 28k km now and needed retightening just once yet (1/6 turn at the adjuster screws). The one before that I changed atfter 32k km not because the chain was kaput but because the sprocket was worn.
Alternatively, if you are well off, use the Regina HPE chain. It will cost more than double and totally disintegrate after just 15k km, but no lubing or tightening necessary.
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……….
The swingarm is at it's longest with rider aboard, the tension is obviously not constant through the entire travel, it is less at full travel in either way....the BMW F800GT is the same and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects.
Good idea with the ratchet strap...I might give it a shot and see exactly what happens. The swingarm is very long compared to a lot of other bikes so the arc difference is not too drastic.
I have "mocked up" a constant tension tensioner just in case. Thoughts..??
Smithy.
Yes your right that the tension is greatest when the swingarm is parallel with motor (axle, swingarm pivot, & motor shaft all align).
What needs to be determined is that @ full compression & full rebound is the reduced tension (“slop”) excessive?
You could remove the shock to make swingarm arc easier but you won’t know where the travel stops are (as determined by the shock).
When using a ratchet strap(s) be careful with your seat (spread the load or remove the seat).
Also the BMW ICE motors differ from an EV in that the EV makes instant torque so will be harder on belts (DAMHIK) so your application may require a tensioner to insure reliability/longevity.
Re tensioner mock up:
Are the bolts long enough for full width threads to engage the nylon lock ring?
If not a dab of blue locktite is in order.
Radius the corners on the finished aluminum plate.
Otherwise it looks good (as viewed on a small phone screen so take that into consideration).
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……….
The swingarm is at it's longest with rider aboard, the tension is obviously not constant through the entire travel, it is less at full travel in either way....the BMW F800GT is the same and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects.
Good idea with the ratchet strap...I might give it a shot and see exactly what happens. The swingarm is very long compared to a lot of other bikes so the arc difference is not too drastic.
I have "mocked up" a constant tension tensioner just in case. Thoughts..??
Smithy.
Yes your right that the tension is greatest when the swingarm is parallel with motor (axle, swingarm pivot, & motor shaft all align).
What needs to be determined is that @ full compression & full rebound is the reduced tension (“slop”) excessive?
You could remove the shock to make swingarm arc easier but you won’t know where the travel stops are (as determined by the shock).
When using a ratchet strap(s) be careful with your seat (spread the load or remove the seat).
Also the BMW ICE motors differ from an EV in that the EV makes instant torque so will be harder on belts (DAMHIK) so your application may require a tensioner to insure reliability/longevity.
Re tensioner mock up:
Are the bolts long enough for full width threads to engage the nylon lock ring?
If not a dab of blue locktite is in order.
Radius the corners on the finished aluminum plate.
Otherwise it looks good (as viewed on a small phone screen so take that into consideration).
Thanks for the advice Eric...I do read everybody's input and it is greatly appreciated...The tensioner mock-up is just that at this stage, a mock-up...I was mainly checking for part clearance issues and whether the side stand will interfere with anything when the stand is up...luckily is just misses everything, the mounting bolts and locking nuts etc will have correct/adequate thread engagement when the final item is completed, I have an aircraft engineering background so I know where you're coming from. The aluminium plate the tensioner is mounted to will indeed be adjusted and trimmed to look a lot better when it is finally fitted...if I find it is actually necessary, the jury is still out on that for the time being.
The suspension travel and indeed the swingarm arc is fairly long on the Experia so all of this will need to be taken into account along with the top and bottom suspension travel stop points.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
The new 26T front pulley I ordered has just arrived...hopefully I will get some time this coming weekend to machine & modify it to fit the Experia front chain sprocket/spline....should be a lot closer to the correct final drive ratio than the current 28T front pulley.
I've been riding the bike to work all of last week and this week, inspecting the belt after each journey...nothing of note to report other than it works as I had hoped, smooth, clean and silent.
I'll keep you posted on any progress.
Smithy.
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smithy what part of the world are you in?
im getting ready to take my experia for a romp on the track, ill pay your rental and admittance, come ride with me, this could be fun and we really get to test out your bike!
have you noticed any difference in handling or mileage or hard to tell?
Aaron
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smithy what part of the world are you in?
im getting ready to take my experia for a romp on the track, ill pay your rental and admittance, come ride with me, this could be fun and we really get to test out your bike!
have you noticed any difference in handling or mileage or hard to tell?
Aaron
LOL...I'm in Brisbane, Australia mate...! ;D A bit far to get over to the US for a track day. ;) Don't forget the Experia is electronically limited to 180kmh or ~112mph..!
Performance with the overdrive front pulley has the "out of the hole acceleration" a bit slower than is normal, cruising and higher speeds present no real difference other than the motor rpm is ~10% less for the same speed.... but I hope to sort this with the new pulley ratio.
Handling and mileage is essentially unchanged, I read on lots of different interweb groups/posts that a belt drive is a bit less efficient than a chain & sprockets...but I don't know to be honest, these days with the newer carbon/kevlar/aramid belts and very efficient HTD pulley systems...I don't think there would be much difference, I can't really pick the difference.....range wise the bike is essentially the same as when the chain was fitted. +/-1%.
My daily commute has the battery usage per trip essentially unchanged...is the belt better than a chain..?? Probably not performance wise. Is the belt drive smoother and quieter..?? Definitely. It's definitely cleaner, no more chain lube/spooge all over the rear wheel, back of the bike and under the top box. I know for sure it is definitely maintenance free and I've not had to adjust the belt tension since fitting it either, (although I haven't done a great deal of mileage with it yet), all these points are a major plus for me.
Smithy.
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Well you could ride the thing over here mate, just watch out for the rocks :) ill have a cool pint waiting for you when ya arrive. as long as its working for you that's all that matters and if it's lasting a while too, that's even better.
aaron
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Well you could ride the thing over here mate, just watch out for the rocks :) ill have a cool pint waiting for you when ya arrive. as long as its working for you that's all that matters and if it's lasting a while too, that's even better.
aaron
Unfortunately I don't drink alcohol...but thanks for the kind offer.. ;D
Current belt and pulley's are still going well, no strange wear or noises from the belt, approaching 3000km on the setup so far, haven't needed to adjust the tension yet either, which is surprising ???. This is my 3rd week of commuting to work with the new belt setup...along with a couple of weekend rides with a few friends.
The new 26T pulley is in the process of being "modified" to fit the Experia, not an easy task with a basic lathe and tools I have at my disposal..it will happen, but not quickly, I'm taking my time, I don't want to screw it up.
It's a pleasant surprise to not see chain lube all over the place, on the rear wheel, dribbling down the side stand and all over the underside of the top box. Chain guard is nice and clean too...it's usually caked with crap.
Smithy.
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i never really had horrible problems with the lube being just slobbered all over everything. i wash the chain frequently clean it and re lube it, but i also use that chain wax stuff which seems to keep things neater. i got about 2k on my race bike before i had to replace the chain / sprocket due to the dragon teeth thing, but the sludge buildup was really minimal fortunately. i found that the biggest catcher was the front sprocket, under the guard it was almost solid gunk / road grime.
but yah i understand, not slinging oil and shit on your back when you take off from doing a maintenance is nice.
aaron
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Hi All,
Minor update, new front pulley is all but finished......26T instead of the current 28T. A lot of machining and swearing etc....but it's almost done, just need to bore holes for the 8mm 12.9 "shoulder bolts" to go through the sprocket and pulley internal mount flange. The new pulley is hardened cast iron so machining was slow and difficult at best with my small (mostly inadequate) lathe & tools.
So far I have close to 3500km on the current belt and pulleys, no evidence of strange wear or noises....I have found no real need for a tensioner as yet...but I'll see how the new setup goes for a few thousand kms before I make up my mind.
Smithy.
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New pulley is done and ready to hopefully fit this coming weekend.
This ia a "highly modified" pully from a Yamaha T-Max 560/Kymco AK550 "Muscle Scooter".
Smithy.
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And another view.
I'm using 8 x 8mm grade 12.9 "shoulder bolts"....should be plenty strong enough to handle the torque.
Smithy.
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Nice!!!
Built like a brick you know what (I trust).
I’m rethinking my comparison of ICE to EV on belt abuse.
On one hand EV IS harder on the belt due to instant torque but on the other hand EV lacks the power pulses of ICE.
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smithy i really do not think you are going to need a tensioner for that. all that is another something to need adjusting rob hp and wear out,
have you really romped it yet to see what she'll do when needed?
what happens worse case the belt starts stretching gets a bit loose, it slips a notch on the pulley? shouldn't be catastrophic right? you should absolutely feel that and say, hmm need to tighten it a bit. i think you hit it on the head and it's right the first time out of the gate here.
time will tell though, still want to romp it see how she behaves
aaron
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smithy i really do not think you are going to need a tensioner for that. all that is another something to need adjusting rob hp and wear out,
have you really romped it yet to see what she'll do when needed?
what happens worse case the belt starts stretching gets a bit loose, it slips a notch on the pulley? shouldn't be catastrophic right? you should absolutely feel that and say, hmm need to tighten it a bit. i think you hit it on the head and it's right the first time out of the gate here.
time will tell though, still want to romp it see how she behaves
aaron
Hi Aaron,
I have been "romping on it" of late, hard acceleration off the traffic lights and out of roundabouts etc...Nothing strange is happening, so I guess that's a good thing. ;D
I removed the front pulley last weekend to check the "sprocket to pulley" mounting bolts were still tight and ok.....and to check if anything was moving or fretting etc....I found nothing so I have been giving a bit of a hard time over the last week, (close to 1000km) and I can report I've seen no issues or skipping of belt teeth etc....I have been religious with the belt tension as I'm still a bit unsure if the swingarm movement will cause grief...so far so good. I've been using BMW's F800GT belt tension specs...seems to work pretty well I guess....the rear pulley and belt are the same as those used on the BMW.
These belts don't "stretch" as far as I am aware....I've scoured the BMW forums and nobody has reported any belt stretching....and some of the owners have well over 50k miles on their belts.
I'll report back next week after fitting the new front pulley and after I have a few hundred km's on it. I'll be fitting a brand new Continental "Contitech 1208" belt to go with the new pulley...and I'll just keep the original belt as a spare in case I get stone damage or some other issue.
The bike has just under 42,000km's on it thus far.....so whilst I have the swingarm out I'm going to remove the rear shock, clean and inspect all shock pivot mounts, swingarm pivot & dog-bone linkage needle bearings and internal bushings etc....and re-lube as necessary......quite a simple job really while the swingarm is out........just a maintenance thing.
Smithy.
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My F800GT has over 40,000 miles with no belt issues. Interestingly, my F800GT weighs about the same as my 2019 SR. The belt widths are dramatically different with the BMW's belt substantially wider.
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i was not aware if synth belts stretched significantly over time or not, which is why i brought it up just to be sure all bases are covered. i figured they stretched a bit, hence the need for a tensioner to keep the tension on them when they did stretch, and/or movement made overall loop length change.
if you are gittin on it and she's behaving then id say you are golden. id say the biggest killer of a belt is going to be at speed under power, hitting a pothole or something, causing a momentary unloading then sudden slamming of the load back on it along with a large swing of the suspension loading it up that way too, being enough to pop it. either that or dead heading it against a curb or something and trying to pick the bike up over the curb with just the engine torque, yanking on that belt, trying to lift the rear wheel.
maybe you can sell your design to energica and they can give you a brand new bike for the idea heh!! although i think i still prefer a chain on my ego.
aaron
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maybe you can sell your design to energica and they can give you a brand new bike for the idea heh!! although i think i still prefer a chain on my ego.aaron
Highly unlikely, I'm sure their engineering staff would have already thought about using a belt... and ended up using a chain instead. Chains & sprockets are a bit cheaper to produce than belts & pulleys. The belt itself costs as much as a good quality chain and sprocket set.....although they do last a lot longer.
I suspect a lot would depend on the use case for each owner...in my case, I mostly use my bike for commuting to work and the occasional weekend blast... Some others may use their bike to tour on, some just a weekend blast machine...each to their own I guess.
A belt drive suits my use case...plus I detest constantly lubing & adjusting chains every few hundred km's and the associated mess that goes with it. Once set up correctly, a belt is essentially maintenance free....other than a quick check over to make sure it's still in good condition.
Smithy.
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well the Experia is really the perfect candidate for what you describe. it's meant to run around town, long rides in the country or touring, with the occasional need for speed. Do belts last longer? Chains can last many many miles if taken care of, hell even if not taken care of. and if someone is not really stomping on it, you can run the thing until it rusts off, just like you could run a belt until it rots off if you wanted to neglect either.
The Experia sounds like a perfect candidate for belt drive and you just proved it. Now if you want to romp and have that kind of fun, you get a ribelle with a chain. They may not have thought of using a belt. They have a chain and it works and is proven. why mess with something that works and is easy? That doesn't mean it's not doable or even better for the use it really is designed for.
the lubing yah it's a pain in the ass, but, lets say you live in a shitty area, dirty roads etc etc, don't you have to do maintenance on the belt too? i can't see them being totally maint free. I mean as least clean them, which is not much less than cleaning then spraying a chain. They make lubes now that dry on, Chain Wax, and it don't spatter all over.
you have to be careful but what i tried that worked well is set cruise control for a few mph with bike chocked up. get the chain brush so it's constantly moving past you, spray the shit on and hold the brush in place and let it go roundy r0undy for a minute or two while you are scrubbing the chain crud loose, then a good blast without the brush but with a rag or just enough to flush the shit off onto a cloth, i use an old coffee bag, then spray lube it and give it a little pump to help disperse it and it's really pretty easy. The rear brake pedal is right there if something goes wrong, basically just touch it and CC disengages and bike comes to quick stop.
Aaron
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New pulley is on...along with new belt...all fitted and aligned, adjusted for tension etc...
I took the bike for a ~100km run yesterday to check for strange/silly noises and make sure all clearances are good, a mix of normal riding and hard pulls from a standstill and out of slow corners and roundabouts etcc.....no issues to report thus far. Smooth, clean and quiet.
Smithy.
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Another pic:
I've so far found no need for a tensioner...so I'll do without to see what happens to the belt long term.
Smithy.
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Whilst I had the swingarm out I serviced/re-greased the swingarm pivot needle bearings, shock linkages and dog-bone needle bearings.....they were actually in good condition and well greased from the factory....not bad considering the 41+k km the bike has done. No signs of excessive wear on the tool steel bushings or needle bearings, they appear to be good quality items.
Smithy.
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Nice work...I think the conversion looks great.
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Nice work...I think the conversion looks great.
Thank you Sir...I hope the belt lasts as long as it does on the BMW it came from....have heard some of them get 40-50k miles out of them..!
Also hear horror stories of some belts failing very early....although it is rare.
Just wish a compatible front pulley was easier to come by....there's a lot of work to get anything from other belt driven bikes to fit.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Just another minor update...I've run the bike to work & back for the last week and runs on the weekend without issue...essentially to get some more miles up on the system and to determine if any changes or adjustments are required. I've not had to adjust the rear wheel alignment and the belt tension seems to be fine. Yesterday I had my "360" camera on the rear of the bike watching the rear pulley & belt during a brief 1/2 hour run...the belt didn't appear to change it's tracking during power/overrun that I could see, which is a bonus. I can find no reason to fit a tensioner so I will not bother to fit one unless something strange happens which requires it.
I plan to run the camera looking at the front pulley and upper & lower belt runs in the next week or so to see if anything strange is happening, I suspect not but you can never be too sure with an "unproven" system.
Thus far, the system appears to be doing as I had hoped...smooth, clean and essentially maintenance free. Not having to do the normal chain lube & adjustment, not having lube mess all over the rear wheel, under the front sprocket cover & chain guard and up under the top box is also a pleasant thing....all still clean after giving the bike a good clean last weekend, although I don't run the front sprocket cover any longer, it doesn't fit with the new front pulley...I may "3D print" a front pulley cover but at this stage it's not a major issue.
Full power/torque lauches from stop lights and sprited acceleration out of slow corners and roundabouts is as good as it was with the chain...just smoother and quieter..! The BMW F800GT the belt was taken from only has modest power/torque @ 64kw (~87hp) and 91nm (~67lb-ft) compared to the Experia's 75kw (just over 100hp) and it's buckets of instant torque from nothing compared to the BMW....but it seems to handle the power and torque without any issues. ;D Time will tell if the belt suffers any ill effects. I suspect not after seeing some Harley's with a tiny 1" belt, more weight and comparitively higher hp and gobs of pulsing torque.
Cruising on motorways @~100kmh is a pleasure now without the chain/sprocket vibration/noise.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
All is still running well at this stage and I'm racking up the miles/kms, nearing 4000km on the belt drive system, nothing to report really....the system is still clean, quiet, adjustment and fuss free. I joined a few of my riding friends this last Saturday just gone and we did some spirited winding/twisting road riding approx 200km, (~125 miles), all up with a short break in the middle, plenty of slow corners and up/down hill acceleration/deceleration, I'm no GP rider or knee dragger but the Experia held it's own against some pretty quick machinery, a couple of GSXR1000's, Kawasaki ZX10's and a Yamaha R6. The Experia is surprisingly quick between corners and out of slower corners where torque is most utilised, it loses out against the other bikes when we get above 120kmh though...where hp rules...I keep having to remind myself that the Experia only has ~100hp and weighs in excess of 260kg compared to the 200hp and under 200kg of the Gixxers and ZX's ....belt is holding up fine and I can see no ill effects or untoward noises or marks on the belt.
So far I'm still smiling..! ;D
Smithy.
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Your Experia has 20bhp more than everyone else's then ;D ... you've got a mere 80bhp to play with I think so you're doing even better than you realise.
Cas :)
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Your Experia has 20bhp more than everyone else's then ;D ... you've got a mere 80bhp to play with I think so you're doing even better than you realise.
Cas :)
Umm well not really...they have ~60kw (~80hp) "continuous" and 75kw (~100hp) "peak" available for short squirts when required.
Smithy.
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Have you had the other to ride in the wet yet?
Some say that the Zero’s belt when wet reminds them of a Water Buffalo’s call.
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Have you had the other to ride in the wet yet?
Some say that the Zero’s belt when wet reminds them of a Water Buffalo’s call.
No, I haven't ridden with the belt drive in proper rain yet...only when the road has been a bit damp. Will be interesting when it does eventually happen I guess..!
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Have just passed 5000km+ with the belt/pulley system....the setup was fitted when the bike had 40053km on the ODO, it now has 45065km, everything is still working fine and no issues to speak of, belt is holding up well with no signs of excessive wear or cracking/splitting. Luckily I've had no stone damage either. I've been riding it normally as I did when the chain/sprockets were fitted, most of my riding is a daily ~50km each way commute to work and back, I also do ~200km Saturday/weekend rides with local riding friends, weather permitting.
I haven't noticed any change in performance or associated issues. It's also a pleasure to not have to clean, lube & adjust the chain every 500km or so and clean all the chain lube crap etc of the back wheel/swingarm and back of the bike every time I wash it...now it's just a quick snow-foam all over, wipe over with a sponge and hose off, job done. ;D I have adjusted the belt tension once since fitting, I asked one of the guys on the BMW F800GT forum what tension they use and I have adjusted mine to be the same, I was running mine a little "tighter" than his recomended tension but TBH I haven't noticed any real difference. The difference was only a kg or so per 10mm of belt travel.
I'm planning on making another belt/pulley kit in the not too distant future, it will be essentially the same setup but hopefully be a lot more "precise" than the "hand made" setup I have on at the moment, possibly a month or two maybe...just need to get some parts ordered, new rear pulley, shoulder bolts... and make the front pulley, spacers etc....will get a new belt too. I still have a new spare belt in the shed just in case. I'll take some precise measurements of the front pulley when it's done and see about getting one CNC made locally....this will make it so much easier...making the front pulley at present is very labor intensive and time consuming using the equipment I currently have at my disposal.
I'll fit the new system to my bike and I'm thinking of possibly asking one of the nearby Aussie Experia owners if he would allow me to fit the old setup to his bike and run the system to see what he thinks and if it's a viable alternative to chain & sprockets. Time will tell.
So far so good guys.
Smithy.
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im in the good ole US of A, ill pay shipping if you want me to try on my bike. ill even take it out on the track and abuse it properly ;D to let you know how it really holds up. lmk
Aaron
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im in the good ole US of A, ill pay shipping if you want me to try on my bike. ill even take it out on the track and abuse it properly ;D to let you know how it really holds up. lmk
Aaron
Really..?? I might take you up on that. I might see if I can pump out a few kits, but might take a while.
Of late I've been chasing a few riding friends along some twisty stop/start corner and variable winding roads, the Experia seems to hold it's own and performs well....hard acceleration and deceleration doesn't seem to bother the belt. At our local motorcycle gathering place on Saturday mornings I watch some of the Harleys come in and often check what belt they have fitted..... I'm amazed that some of them have a piddly little 1" belt and it can handle all the torque and 300kg+ weight of some of them, many of them 2-up as well....
Smithy.
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im dead serious, well hopefully not the dead part :D
ill put the proper tires on the experia and take her out on the track with the belt drive. i really am intrigued at what may be possible with it, how far i can push it with the current, which seem a bit inadequate shocks but might work somewhat.
i am .. aggressive with my bikes to begin with i got plenty of room out here to really open them up, so can give it kind of a torture test, worse case look as well.
this sounds like it could be a ton of fun and absolutely something that could be a game changer for the experia brand.
Aaron
take your time but if you do decide, id love to do so, ill strap a 360 on it and let you do whatever you want with the raw video, i can even get some of the pro racers to try it too just for s and g's if you want.
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im dead serious, well hopefully not the dead part :D
ill put the proper tires on the experia and take her out on the track with the belt drive. i really am intrigued at what may be possible with it, how far i can push it with the current, which seem a bit inadequate shocks but might work somewhat.
i am .. aggressive with my bikes to begin with i got plenty of room out here to really open them up, so can give it kind of a torture test, worse case look as well.
this sounds like it could be a ton of fun and absolutely something that could be a game changer for the experia brand.
Aaron
take your time but if you do decide, id love to do so, ill strap a 360 on it and let you do whatever you want with the raw video, i can even get some of the pro racers to try it too just for s and g's if you want.
It's not like the Experia has a ton of power to play with, 75kw (~100hp) maximum....but still a goodly amount of torque.
Smithy.
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that is true but you still have to be mindful, and not always do we get on the street and peg the throttle saying go go go... so it'll put that torque toits proper limits. shit, lets arrange this for maybe march/april or better yet you are aussie right? good, then hot miserable heat, everything trying to eat you is the norm for you too, come to florida in th summer spend a week here my guest, ill take you fishing, and some of the mud holes and other hillbilly redneck stuff we do for entertainment if you so desire :D
Aaron
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that is true but you still have to be mindful, and not always do we get on the street and peg the throttle saying go go go... so it'll put that torque toits proper limits. shit, lets arrange this for maybe march/april or better yet you are aussie right? good, then hot miserable heat, everything trying to eat you is the norm for you too, come to florida in th summer spend a week here my guest, ill take you fishing, and some of the mud holes and other hillbilly redneck stuff we do for entertainment if you so desire :D
Aaron
Like gator wrestling? ;)
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ahhh, umm sure if you want but if you see flashlights and a badge... run ;D
the game warden gets a little bent when you wrassle with them lil ole lizzies.
Aaron
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Put me on the list if you end up sending a couple kits to the USA. Happy to chuck some USD towards group buy/shipping.
Already got the experia track days out of my system, but plenty of commute miles planned.
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you know, with that being said, shipping will be a butthumper.
small packages usps about 110 dollars, but i do have a shipper i can use...
worse case, you bulk ship to me, everything, then i repack it here and send it out, that way shipping is maybe 25 dollars ups via 115 dollars each person. i can slap it on my business account and get a real good deal thru ups.
just saying, if you did decide to make this a side gig smithy i could work with you on it for stateside shipping. but honestly how many experia's are out there who'd be interested, that's the kicker there. hmm
aaron
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Hi All,
Have just passed 6500km on the way to work this morning on the belt drive setup so far...nothing to really report other than it's still working fine, no strange wear or noises to speak of other than tiny squeaks from the belt when riding very slowly in the wet, this goes away when dry though. Belt tension hasn't changed and seems pretty consistant, I have only adjusted it once since fitting and it has been trouble free. I think once the belt has "broken-in" it then stays pretty consistant as far as tension goes. I'm using 55hz as tension requirement.
I'm currently in the "slow" process of making up a second belt drive set for one of the local Aussie Experia riders, he only lives ~25km from me...so pretty close, we'll be getting together soon to discuss if, how & when etc..
I've also been able to find a suitable 24T pulley to fit the front...which is actually an aluminium drag racing blower pulley....will need significant modification to make it fit but should be doable. This will have the final drive ratio at 24/80 or 3.33:1 as opposed to the stock ratio of 15/52 or 3.46:1.
I'm still toying with the idea of using a Gates "Carbon Drive" Moto X9 belt and suitable pulleys, but this may be a long way off as I can't even get Gates Australia to reply to my emails.
There's a guy who has done this belt conversion to a KTM 790 stunt bike using a Gates carbon drive "Centre Track" Moto X9 belt...seems to work fine for him and he gives it a pretty hard time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpL7vJcesAo
Smithy.
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Yeah, I’ve tried to contact gates a number of times, I even used my work email to have a bit more swing, but got zero responses as well. I thought of just buying a belt and using a 3d scanner to get the tooth profile/dimensions, but all the scanners I have access to don’t have sufficient resolution.
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……I'm using 55hz as tension requirement.
………
I'm still toying with the idea of using a Gates "Carbon Drive" Moto X9 belt and suitable pulleys, but this may be a long way off as I can't even get Gates Australia to reply to my emails.
……
Out of curiosity, have you checked the belt tension via a Krikit?
When I was commuting & putting about 14k miles/year I checked/adjusted the belt every month.
On my 2016 DSR I have the skinny belt so keep it @ the high limit of tension.
2017 on the wider belt is used & has a much wider tension range.
I recommend avoiding tension above the mid range to minimize strain on the bearings.
Try Motion Industries for Gates products
https://www.motion.com.au/
If you want to test the belt to potential failure point, try hopping off street/sidewalk curbs & landing with a fist full of throttle.
Also throw in several passes on a bumpy street (working the suspension) again under heavy throttle.
Or just continue what your doing (riding sensible) & see how long it will last.
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Yeah, I’ve tried to contact gates a number of times, I even used my work email to have a bit more swing, but got zero responses as well.
I'm getting the same as you...no response.
Smithy.
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……I'm using 55hz as tension requirement.
………
I'm still toying with the idea of using a Gates "Carbon Drive" Moto X9 belt and suitable pulleys, but this may be a long way off as I can't even get Gates Australia to reply to my emails.
……
Out of curiosity, have you checked the belt tension via a Krikit?
When I was commuting & putting about 14k miles/year I checked/adjusted the belt every month.
On my 2016 DSR I have the skinny belt so keep it @ the high limit of tension.
2017 on the wider belt is used & has a much wider tension range.
I recommend avoiding tension above the mid range to minimize strain on the bearings.
Try Motion Industries for Gates products
https://www.motion.com.au/
If you want to test the belt to potential failure point, try hopping off street/sidewalk curbs & landing with a fist full of throttle.
Also throw in several passes on a bumpy street (working the suspension) again under heavy throttle.
Or just continue what your doing (riding sensible) & see how long it will last.
I do have a "Krikit" belt tension gismo...used it a lot when servicing Zero's. Was easy to use...I use the same tension (55hz) as recommended by the guys in the F800GT forum, I might set the belt tension to 55hz and see what the Krikit says. Good idea, thanks.
I have no intention of trying to purposely snap the belt...the one I'm using is considerably wider at 34mm than the shoelace 20mm belt some of the Zero's use...so I suspect it will be fine. The tension strength of a belt is essentially a square of their width. A belt of the same construction and twice the width is basically 4 times stronger.
Smithy.
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…….
The tension strength of a belt is essentially a square of their width. A belt of the same construction and twice the width is basically 4 times stronger.
I’m not sure that this is accurate without also increasing its girth/load bearing fiber content.
However that statement is correct when discussing rope (diameter).
“if you double the diameter of a rope, it will lift approximately four times the weight, not twice as much. The strength of a rope is proportional to its cross-sectional area, which is determined by the square of its diameter. ”
Disclosure: the statement above in parentheses is AI as I couldn’t find a better non AI explanation (but rest assured it is accurate).
Regardless that wide belt is WAY more robust than my dismissal skinny 14mm belt.
Guess I have girth envy :-[
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Just over 7000km into the belt driven Experia journey....still holding up well and no signs of letting go....still quiet, smooth, clean and chain spooge free. ;D
I have also just 99% finished making a 24T front pulley to replace the current 26T pulley...this should bring the ratio up to 3.33:1 from the 3.08 it currently is...the ideal ratio would be 3.25 to get the speedo spot-on but 3.33 will have to do...for a 3.25 ratio I'd need a 24.6 tooth front pulley.. :-\ ...The stock 15/52 ratio is 3.466:1 so I'm between that and a 16/52 or 3.25 setup.
Below is a pic of the 99% finished 24T front pulley.
Smithy.
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Well, if yer brangs it down south here, dem mostly there teeth counts as full ones.. just give em a lil bigger gap tweens them, so ya can gits the cleaning stick in there easier.
that's one thing i wish the experia had was a way to set teeth numbers to make the speedo match. tire size a little bit but teeth are much more significant. keep forgetting when i ride mine, the speedo is off and the amount is not a solid number it goes up as speed goes up.
aaron
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Well, if yer brangs it down south here, dem mostly there teeth counts as full ones.. just give em a lil bigger gap tweens them, so ya can gits the cleaning stick in there easier.
that's one thing i wish the experia had was a way to set teeth numbers to make the speedo match. tire size a little bit but teeth are much more significant. keep forgetting when i ride mine, the speedo is off and the amount is not a solid number it goes up as speed goes up.
aaron
Yeah...the speedo offset is not linear....using 16/52 is as near perfect as you're going to get though...at 100kmh on the GPS the bike speedo is within +/- 1% with stock size tyres.
Smithy.
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still 1 percent is much easier to deal with, that's 1 mph, pretty negligible, than the experia showing 107 to actually be doing 100. yet at 45 is doing like 42 not too terribly bad off.
my ego/ribelle have a spot where i can punch in the teeth front to back and it changes it and it's dead nuts on from 0 to 150 + wish they'd do that with all the bikes even on the street software.
Aaron
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Hi All,
Just an update regarding my Experia belt drive conversion....The belt system now has just shy of 10,000km on it and no signs of wear or the need for me to be going back to chain and sprockets. The system still performs well, clean, smooth and quiet. The belt itself still looks new with only minor markings on the teeth, which is to be expected I guess. The belt and pulleys were fitted when the ODO was at 40053km, the bike now has 49970km, so getting very close to 10,000km. The pulleys are working well and essentially the same as when fitted and I see no need to change them when the belt is due....hopefully in ~50,000km time. I have three front pulleys for it, a 26T, 25T and 24T. The 25T is not quite finished as yet, will be a week or two away. The 26T pulley is hardened cast iron and the 24T & 25T pulleys are 7075-T6 hard anodised Aluminium.
Below pic is as it is this morning after my work commute with the 24T 7075-T6 "modified aluminium Supercharger" pulley fitted..!
Cheers,
Smithy.
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Congratz!
Admittedly, I am not a belt fan and first I was sceptical if your project would fly. But now I am really convinced you did a great job. And the stuff you used looks 100 % as if it had always belonged there.
Happy ridings!
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Hi All,
Just an update regarding my Experia belt drive conversion....The belt system now has just shy of 10,000km on it and no signs of wear or the need for me to be going back to chain and sprockets. The system still performs well, clean, smooth and quiet.
Impressive! I am beginning to like belts better than chains, after I changed the belt with the 3rd tire change on my Zero SR with more than 25K miles/40 KM. The old belt looked just like the new in every way, but I changed it anyway.
And I still have the original belt on my 2017 Zero DS with close to the same number of miles/km.
I recently changed the drive chain on my Kaw Verseys 650 because it had very loose and then very tight spots making it impossible to adjust. Less than 10K miles/16KM. What a hassle it was to replace!
And my 2020 Energica SS9- has around 13,000 miles/ 21KM and I will need to change the chain on it soon. I expect it will be even a bigger hassle than the Verseys.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Congratz!
Admittedly, I am not a belt fan and first I was sceptical if your project would fly. But now I am really convinced you did a great job. And the stuff you used looks 100 % as if it had always belonged there.
Happy ridings!
Thank you Sir....much appreciated. It's not perfect by any means but is quite functional. I'll update in future as the mileage/kilometerage increases...I was like you and didn't think it would work as well as it actually does, it was essentially an experiment after all....surprised myself. ;D
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Just an update regarding my Experia belt drive conversion....The belt system now has just shy of 10,000km on it and no signs of wear or the need for me to be going back to chain and sprockets. The system still performs well, clean, smooth and quiet.
Impressive! I am beginning to like belts better than chains, after I changed the belt with the 3rd tire change on my Zero SR with more than 25K miles/40 KM. The old belt looked just like the new in every way, but I changed it anyway.
And I still have the original belt on my 2017 Zero DS with close to the same number of miles/km.
I recently changed the drive chain on my Kaw Verseys 650 because it had very loose and then very tight spots making it impossible to adjust. Less than 10K miles/16KM. What a hassle it was to replace!
And my 2020 Energica SS9- has around 13,000 miles/ 21KM and I will need to change the chain on it soon. I expect it will be even a bigger hassle than the Verseys.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Agree, chains can be a pain sometimes, although changing out the belt on the Experia requires the swingarm to be removed...I've been able to get this process down to ~25mins with all the practice I've had over the last several months whilst experimenting with pulleys etc. It's actually quicker now and much cleaner than swapping out chain & sprockets. ::)
I have 3 other ICE bikes and two of them are chain driven...a '17 BMW S1000XR and an old '84 Honda VF1000RE which I have recently restored back to near showroom condition, with a few non-OEM mods....although I don't put many miles on them these days. My "other" 4th bike is a shaft driven 2019 Suzuki M109R... a brute of a thing to be honest, very powerful and very heavy @350kg, I mainly use it for pillion work with my missus....It does this with ease.
Smithy.
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smithy that belt drive setup, with the rest of the bikes asthetics, looks really classy, i like it.
sometimes people do things to be different, but this definitely has a ton of potential of doing things to be better.
that bike is not a torque monster so the belt is like it was born for it, they mesh beautifully and seem to be working pretty flawlessly.
another potential plus, which i hope you never have to find out, you get something up in there, with a chain, that could lock up, fuck you and the bike up, with a belt, it just pops and falls off really and you coast to a stop. only downside i can think of, chain you can wrap around and peen, belt you must take the wheel off, which is no biggie even then.
Aaron
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only downside i can think of, chain you can wrap around and peen, belt you must take the wheel off, which is no biggie even then.
Aaron
Thank you for the kind words.. ;D
Not just the wheel off unfortunately...swingarm too...not really doable on the side of the road....but it is what it is.
Smithy.
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Nice work!!
The only negative belt story I have was when I inadvertently forded a mud slide.
It was a rather wet morning in Southern California & on my way to work I found my usual route closed due to rock slides (Malibu Canyon).
I decided to go over the Santa Monica mountains as that road was open.
Unfortunately several miles into the detour i came upon a mudflow that covered the entire road.
I didn’t see it coming as my visibility was hampered by heavy rain/fogging face shield/glasses & it was still pitch black dark.
Anyway my forward progress was halted when my front tire hit what I presume was a large branch. It was at this point that I realized my predicament when I put my feet down & felt my lower legs get cold from being submerged in mud above my 10” boots!!!
I felt my best option was to progress straight ahead rather than try to jockey the bike around 180° on an off-camber deserted mountain road.
Thankfully the advantage of an EV is no transmission & clutch (Zero DSR) & I was able to walk the bike over obstacles & get out of the muck.
When I did & got up to speed, I heard a clanking sound but everything else was normal so I pressed on to work.
It was there in the safety of a dry parking garage that I discovered the source of the noise to be the motor sheave’s shoulder that had popped its tack welds so floating/bouncing on the motor shaft.
I figured that mud had been trapped between the sheave & the belt causing hydraulic &/or debris carnage.
A trip to the dealership & $800 later, my bike was whole again.
Moral of the story, belts suck off-road.
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Not just the wheel off unfortunately...swingarm too...not really doable on the side of the road....but it is what it is.
Smithy.
True, but how many people are regularly riding around with a spare chain, chain breaker/peening tool and replacing a chain on the side of the road. Hard core tourers and off-roaders aside, for the rest of us when the bike’s cactus the day is done anyhow.
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good point but when it does happen, it's an hour plus job versus 10 minutes. if you are on a ride for the day or a multi day event, often times folks will carry stuff like that in the designated dumpster i call it because it's mostly harley parts :D but, the followers in a truck or car that have spare parts they carry with so if something does fall off, it can hopefully quickly be fixed and back with the group instead of ill meet you at the next mornings spot.. type thing.
out of curiosity how do they fuse belts, are they sewn, clued, laser welded? how difficult would it be to make like an emergency belt where you cut and glue or staple or whatever to get you to a better stopping point? even if it's a low torque take it easy like the 2 ply wonder wheels some cars have as spares it'd be better than stuck onthe side of the road for hours
aaron
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Not just the wheel off unfortunately...swingarm too...not really doable on the side of the road....but it is what it is.
Smithy.
True, but how many people are regularly riding around with a spare chain, chain breaker/peening tool and replacing a chain on the side of the road. Hard core tourers and off-roaders aside, for the rest of us when the bike’s cactus the day is done anyhow.
So true....can't say I've ever had a spare chain and the required tools with me etc....I do carry a spare clip type joining link with me on my chain driven bikes...but who says it's going to snap in the right place..!
Smithy.
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Nice work!!
The only negative belt story I have was when I inadvertently forded a mud slide.
It was a rather wet morning in Southern California & on my way to work I found my usual route closed due to rock slides (Malibu Canyon).
I decided to go over the Santa Monica mountains as that road was open.
Unfortunately several miles into the detour i came upon a mudflow that covered the entire road.
I didn’t see it coming as my visibility was hampered by heavy rain/fogging face shield/glasses & it was still pitch black dark.
Anyway my forward progress was halted when my front tire hit what I presume was a large branch. It was at this point that I realized my predicament when I put my feet down & felt my lower legs get cold from being submerged in mud above my 10” boots!!!
I felt my best option was to progress straight ahead rather than try to jockey the bike around 180° on an off-camber deserted mountain road.
Thankfully the advantage of an EV is no transmission & clutch (Zero DSR) & I was able to walk the bike over obstacles & get out of the muck.
When I did & got up to speed, I heard a clanking sound but everything else was normal so I pressed on to work.
It was there in the safety of a dry parking garage that I discovered the source of the noise to be the motor sheave’s shoulder that had popped its tack welds so floating/bouncing on the motor shaft.
I figured that mud had been trapped between the sheave & the belt causing hydraulic &/or debris carnage.
A trip to the dealership & $800 later, my bike was whole again.
Moral of the story, belts suck off-road.
Yeah....I wonder how the Zero DSR-X guys get on in the wild....I suspect many of the the true off-roaders would convert to chain..!??
Smithy.
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good point but when it does happen, it's an hour plus job versus 10 minutes. if you are on a ride for the day or a multi day event, often times folks will carry stuff like that in the designated dumpster i call it because it's mostly harley parts :D but, the followers in a truck or car that have spare parts they carry with so if something does fall off, it can hopefully quickly be fixed and back with the group instead of ill meet you at the next mornings spot.. type thing.
out of curiosity how do they fuse belts, are they sewn, clued, laser welded? how difficult would it be to make like an emergency belt where you cut and glue or staple or whatever to get you to a better stopping point? even if it's a low torque take it easy like the 2 ply wonder wheels some cars have as spares it'd be better than stuck onthe side of the road for hours
aaron
I believe the belts are made in a continuous wide loop, not fused or glued/welded, I've not seen any evidence of a "join" on any of my belts....and the belts are then sliced off the main part in the correct width. During my research to do my conversion I found several manufacturers who made the same pitch & length belt in multiple widths...I suspect they're just sliced off the main part to suit. You can buy Harley belts of the same length but in 1", 1-1/8", 1-3/8", 1-1/2" etc...widths...all cut from the same master loop I suspect.
I've seen "Emergency" drive belt kits for Harleys, they're a longitudinally split overlapping belt, (one end somewhat like a snake's tongue), which has holes sideways through the teeth and a dozen or so pins to join the ends together etc...would possibly get you out of trouble until a new belt can be fitted. ???
I wonder if I could make something similar to fit my bike using and old belt and home made "screw together" loop pins..?? Just in case the unthinkable happened..!
Smithy.
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Wow, a spare belt for emergency use - I did not know something like this existed!
Yes, the belts with reinforcing inlays are cut from a wide 'tube' and the sides are then often coated for enhanced operation.
Only belts without inlay can be cut and welded togehter from a reel. There are nice vids available on youtube.
Last year I attended an event where a dozen or more Zero riders were present. Interestingly, their experiences with belts appeared to cover a wide range.
For every one praising longevity there was one reporting a sudden early death. But, yes, the majority was satified with the performance.
What I like with chains is their predictability, they very very rarely give up on you suddenly. You can easily see if it's corroded, bent, missing rings etc. As an engineer I love that you can easily measure their enlongation which gives you a good guess about their residual lifetime.
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Nice to know that emergency belts exist. Maybe I should get one. Even if I have to limit the throttle to 10-20% until I get home. It would at least save a tow truck.
I remember a guy who "fixed" a snapped belt by gluing foot long portion of a stripped belt back to back. It lasted until replacement arrived. If I'd known there would be belt driven bikes in my future I'd have looked into how he did this. What glue etc.
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Nice to know that emergency belts exist. Maybe I should get one. Even if I have to limit the throttle to 10-20% until I get home. It would at least save a tow truck.
I remember a guy who "fixed" a snapped belt by gluing foot long portion of a stripped belt back to back. It lasted until replacement arrived. If I'd known there would be belt driven bikes in my future I'd have looked into how he did this. What glue etc.
I've only seen emergency belts for Harleys, 14mm pitch...I've not seen any others. My belt is 11mm pitch like most of the Zeros.
Smithy.
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I'd be looking around to see if you can loop a spare belt through the swing arm and zip tie it out of the way. Then roadside repair is just remove the remains of the first belt, slide the wheel forward (or partially remove for clearance), loop on the spare, and re-tension.
I don't recall if this was suggested on the thread earlier, but I recall it on various Zero discussions and have seen it in practice for lawn mowers/boats/etc.
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I'd be looking around to see if you can loop a spare belt through the swing arm and zip tie it out of the way. Then roadside repair is just remove the remains of the first belt, slide the wheel forward (or partially remove for clearance), loop on the spare, and re-tension.
I don't recall if this was suggested on the thread earlier, but I recall it on various Zero discussions and have seen it in practice for lawn mowers/boats/etc.
That can be done easier on a Zero with a CENTRAL STAND (this word is a rage trigger for most Experia owners ;D)
Quite a challenge on a bike leaning to the side with over 100 kg load on the rear wheel.
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slight hijack.
anyone ever hear any official word why the center stand never happened? design change, didn't pay the manufacturer, what?
Aaron
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I was thinking the FX where you just kick it over onto a convenient patch of dirt, but yeah lack of center stand (and fragile chin fairing) would make it more difficult on the energicas.
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I'd be looking around to see if you can loop a spare belt through the swing arm and zip tie it out of the way. Then roadside repair is just remove the remains of the first belt, slide the wheel forward (or partially remove for clearance), loop on the spare, and re-tension.
I don't recall if this was suggested on the thread earlier, but I recall it on various Zero discussions and have seen it in practice for lawn mowers/boats/etc.
That can be done easier on a Zero with a CENTRAL STAND (this word is a rage trigger for most Experia owners ;D)
Quite a challenge on a bike leaning to the side with over 100 kg load on the rear wheel.
You can replace the belt on most Zeros without removing the swingarm as the swingarm pivot and front pulley are in the same place.....belt is easy to replace on them.
Smithy.
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slight hijack.
anyone ever hear any official word why the center stand never happened? design change, didn't pay the manufacturer, what?
Aaron
They did make some for promotional purposes and I believe the police bikes they supplied for one or two European countries had them...I stand corrected though.
Smithy.
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you 'stand' corrected.
so you got one of them then :)
Aaron
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you 'stand' corrected.
so you got one of them then :)
Aaron
LOL...ah...no..! ;)
On a side note....just passed 10,500km on the belt system during this morning's commute to work.
Smithy.
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Hi All,
Have passed through 13,000km on the belt setup on my way to work this morning....all still going well, belt is showing no signs of major wear etc... I has a few marks on it from normal wear & tear but nothing I would call noteworthy, no nicks or tears in the wear fabric, teeth are looking normal with no deformation etc. The pulleys are showing no signs of undue wear either. I have a good look at the belt and pulleys each weekend and I've not had to adjust it other than when I have the wheel out to change tyres etc...very satisfying to see it all working as well as it does..
I ride in all types of weather, wet, dry, hot, cold...it's nice not having to worry about whether the chain is clean, adjusted & lubed enough to ward off excessive wear or corrosion etc.....I suspect I'd be looking for a new set of chain & sprockets by now if I hadn't changed to the belt...
I'm guessing the cost of the belt setup vs normal chain & sprockets will eventually pay for itself...not having to make new pulleys at each belt change will be a big plus. I still have no real idea of how long the belt should last, The belt is from a BMW F800GT and judging by the BMW F800 forums, they often see in excess of 50,000km, The Experia has substantially more hp & torque than the F800 but I don't ride very fast, nor do I accelerate at 100% everywhere, so I guess the belt should last a similar distance.
I have found a dealer/seller in "Latvia" of all places, who will sell me the correct size Continental/BMW belt for $177 AUD which is just under $130 USD, (free shipping if I buy 2 or more)...which is less than the cost of a good quality DID, RK or EK chain...let alone the cost of replacing sprockets on top of that.
I'm well chuffed. ;D
Smithy.
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Glad that you are chuffed (had to look it up).
The most I’ve gotten out of the narrow zero belt (2016 DSR) was 31.5k miles so I’m guessing you can 1.5x that.
I have to think that the lack of piston power pulses is easier on the belt & thus extends life.
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how bad does a normal bike eat up sprockets when normal people ride them who are not romping them all the time? i get it, all things wear but if you kept it properly maintained, the sprocket should last a while no? yah ok i would eat them in about 1500 miles or so on the ego but i was racing the thing. my ribelle, which i occasionally street race, ride spirited and have fun with im about 20k miles and the sprocket so far seems pretty good, no dragon teeth etc on it. my chains last ehh 10 to 12k but its very horrible out here on them, a lot of silt and fine particulates that grind the shit out of them no matter how well you grease things up. i wonder how a belt wouild hold up to an abrasive environment like that?
glad to hear its working out for you, you put a lot of thought and effort into it and it turned out to be really an incredible project.
too bad energica is going tits up as this is something that might have been a viable business if you wanted, or sell the rights to them or someting.
aaron
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how bad does a normal bike eat up sprockets when normal people ride them who are not romping them all the time? i get it, all things wear but if you kept it properly maintained, the sprocket should last a while no? yah ok i would eat them in about 1500 miles or so on the ego but i was racing the thing. my ribelle, which i occasionally street race, ride spirited and have fun with im about 20k miles and the sprocket so far seems pretty good, no dragon teeth etc on it. my chains last ehh 10 to 12k but its very horrible out here on them, a lot of silt and fine particulates that grind the shit out of them no matter how well you grease things up. i wonder how a belt wouild hold up to an abrasive environment like that?
glad to hear its working out for you, you put a lot of thought and effort into it and it turned out to be really an incredible project.
too bad energica is going tits up as this is something that might have been a viable business if you wanted, or sell the rights to them or someting.
aaron
My normal chain driven bikes get ~15,000km or so before I'm looking for new ones, sprockets too.
Thanks again for the kind words.. ;D
Smithy.