ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: domingo3 on January 17, 2025, 07:37:40 AM
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Weird behavior. Any ideas what could cause this?
https://youtube.com/shorts/yJIFgOrqJmM?feature=shared
Video is a bit blurry, but if it's set to 15A, it only goes up to 9A. Then I show that if I set the current lower, it will follow. If I slowly set it higher, it will go up for a few seconds and then drop back down to 9A.
Any ideas would be appreciated. It's my daily driver and I'm really hoping not to have to leave it at the dealership for days or weeks to diagnose.
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I couldn't see too much but. A few wag's.
What is the temperature outside, were you running it hard then threw it right on the charger?
what was the battery percentage? It looked like you were at 2 percent, that's an ouch right there !
If it was that low, sometimes they start out mild to bring the charge up a bit then it may pick up the amps a bit.
What was the voltage you were charging at? Sometimes, for reasons I have not really investigated, probably should but, if your voltage is low, like you are on a shitty circuit, or it's really loaded down, Ive seen it curtail the charge rate a bit.
If the batteries are cold it can curtail it.
If the batteries are hot it can curtail it.
If you are near the top of being charged it will curtail it.
If it is very discharged, and the batteries are really unbalanced it may curtail it a bit as it tries to even them out before pouring the power to them.
This is an AC charge correct?
Let them charge for a few minutes, unplug turn bike off, then back on and then plug back in and see if it changes.
Without being there to actually see what is going on, I can't give you solid answers but these are a few things that can doink a charge.
Aaron
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Hi Aaron,
Not that cold. Temperature was about 50F.
The battery percentage was 30%.
Charging is on 220-240V. I didn't directly measure it, but it's around there. This happens at home and at commercial charging stations. It's also a sudden change - it used to charge normally and then one day it would only charge at 7-9 amps.
It stays at this lower rate throughout the charge, whether I interrupt or not, charge right after riding or wait, etc. I know it slows down above 90%, but the rest of the charge is limited to 7-9 amps. It's been like this for a few weeks.
Thank you,
Brian
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Weird behavior. Any ideas what could cause this?
https://youtube.com/shorts/yJIFgOrqJmM?feature=shared
Video is a bit blurry, but if it's set to 15A, it only goes up to 9A. Then I show that if I set the current lower, it will follow. If I slowly set it higher, it will go up for a few seconds and then drop back down to 9A.
Any ideas would be appreciated. It's my daily driver and I'm really hoping not to have to leave it at the dealership for days or weeks to diagnose.
Does the battery balance up to 100% after a full A/C charge?
Open the engineering screen and take a look at the cell balance.
Wondering if the BMS is throttling down the charge rate due to cell imbalance.
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I wonder if the reason for this might be on the supply side.
From your video it looks that you are charging in a car park, maybe the outlets are somehow restricted to 9A?
9-10A (2kW) is the safe limit for prolonged power draw according to my electrician buddy. According to him, the bottleneck is usually the socket which can overheat at higher current.
That's why run-of-the-mill household appliances (hair dryer, electric heaters etc.) have approx. 2kW maximum.
Trying to charge somewhere else could answer that.
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I can't get to the engineering screen. I've tried the RRR LLL RRR LRL. Is it something different for older firmware versions? I have FW EN. A. 002616.037
I used to be able to charge normally at home and at work. I still see cars charging at that station at 7kw. I've tried other stations, too. It's definitely the bike.
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Remember to press the mode button in after the sequence of rights and lefts. It will work.
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Follow exactly
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You may have to press an additional screen if it is not directly showing you may see the word diagnostics or something like that press that and it might be in there. I have to do that on my ego it has an extra screen to get to it. then again its not regular software on it but see if that may help.
Go into your bikes settings, i think there is a max charge rate or something worded like that, make sure it's set to 100 percent. If that gets changed somehow even though you may tell it on the screen to go to 15 if it's told only goto 50 percent or so, it won't go all the way up.
On the very top, does it say charging or balancing? I know mine sometimes will start balancing down in the 80s, but still be pulling the full 15 amp. If it says balancing then it's the bike taking it down to level out the cells.
when you do charge it up, do you charge it all the way or stop at like 95 percent or so? when is the last time it went to 100 percent and stopped on it's own.
aaron
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Follow exactly
It's not as if I just didn't feel like following the directions.
https://youtube.com/shorts/iXHEcM06vqM?feature=shared
My menu doesn't even have the same things as the one shown in the video here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/shorts/btZvKFJL_zQ&ved=2ahUKEwjsuLCa0fyKAxUeHUQIHXa9OtAQtwJ6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw3OztnmftFvaXbs0eGtGrr8
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Follow exactly
I checked all the screens and didn't see it.
Charge limit is set to OFF, which is 100%
I charge it to 100% five days a week. It says "charging" until it gets to 90% and then the screen changes to say something about recommending continuing to charge up to 100%. Everything about how I charge and how it responds is the same as it's been since I got the bike a year and a half ago except that it suddenly started charging more slowly about a month ago.
https://youtube.com/shorts/iXHEcM06vqM?feature=shared
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I finally got into the engineering screens. Of the parts I understand, I don't see anything unusual. Anyone else?
https://flic.kr/p/2qKrqHx
https://flic.kr/p/2qKrugD
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Looks normal. Balance is good. No clues here as to why your charge rate has dropped.
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Reach out to Chris Paz at Energica USA. He is the man to ask. Chris also frequents this forum, so perhaps you can PM him to reach him.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=8405
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You have that check engine light on, what is the bike telling you in the diagnostics? Is your onboard charger ok?
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You have that check engine light on, what is the bike telling you in the diagnostics? Is your onboard charger ok?
The check engine light is unrelated. It's for the rear wheel speed sensor for traction control. I'm not sure how to fix that, but I'm more concerned about charging.
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what is the difference between your min and max cell voltage.
If you are getting that 'recommend charging to full' that generally means it senses an unbalance in your pack.
When it thinks the pack is unbalanced your charge rate can go down.
Basically what happens is.
you charge the bike, the voltages go up, when one cell hits the max, but the overall spread is above, I want to say 50 mv, id have to check again, it goes into balance mode.
balance mode could be either a reduced charge current, so that the charge current itself does not excessively bias the actual cell voltages, or it is discharging the highest cells down a bit, then recharging the entire pack again until the next cell reaches the high point, then discharging the next cell/cells a bit, then recharging full pack again until hits high, next high cells... etc etc until ALL the cells are within the acceptable limit of spread.
Now, if the balance gets way of whack it might take a few days to get it back. Problem is, if the bike goes, I want to say an hour or so without power going IN, then it terminates the charge sequence. Even if it is not at 100 percent, it terminates the charge sequence. What YOU have to do then is remove power, and plug back in, that resets it and it starts charging again. and it will repeat that cycle again... and again, and again... until you finally hit a 100 percent charge, which is... when ALL the batteries are within the 50 mv span or whatever it is.
Where the problems start to come in is, when you get 1 or 2 batteries that way of whack for some reason. Lets say one cell is half a volt low... in order to get it to where it belongs, the way it currently works, it has to discharge ALL the rest of the high cells, recharge All the cells, discharge all the high ones, recharge ALL of them until it basically walks the voltage of that one cell up to the rest of them.
Lets for sake of a discussion say you have 80 cells in there,
lets say for sake of a discussion that the 'discharge' function, it can only dissipate a max of .. lets say 100 watts.
now, when you first initiate a charge. you may only have one or two batteries that are higher than the rest, so dissipating 100 watts out of one battery, man you can drop that voltage pretty fast. so you lower it 50mV then charge the entire pack up again, until next battery hits high cut off. Lets say now you have 5 batteries that are high.... discharging 5 batteries, ok, it's only 5 so you can still drop that 100 watts across 5 batteries and get the voltage down 50mv on them, before your hour is up. so you discharge them, they drop 50 mv and then it recharges the entire pack..... repeat ehh 3 or 4 times.
now you have 75 cells that are high and 5 that are LOW now. NOW you have to discharge all those 75 cells , thru that 100 watt load.... the voltage drop across all of them is going to be very low, since it's now 75 cells feeding it instead of a few. you are NOT going to get the 50mv drop across them in an hour. you have to dissipate 1 kilowatt of power..... thru a 100 watt load... in only an hour....... again,just throwing numbers out for sake of discussion.... the math don't add up, you can't discharge them that fast..so the hour times out, and the bike says, charge complete.
and it stays there until a new charge cycle is initiated.
so you start a new charge.... but instead of being half a volt low..... since you were able to take 'some' power off the high cells, it's only .45 volts low now...... so they all charge up.... then the top 70 dissipate... it times out..... you restart, it charges.. you are onw only .42 volts low on the low cells......... so you repeat again and again and finally walk the thing up to where it times out.... you charge it, it charges the entire pack, and viola, you are only .050 volts low on the lowest cell. ahh.... 50 millivolts... my cutoff point... now it will say, all batteries are in specs boot it the final time and then give you your charge complete, at which point the error messages should cease because YOU have FINALLY reached a 100 percent charged state.
The best way to 'fix this' is to buy one of those timers that you can set for say an hour on, 5 minutes off, so it just keeps resetting it over and over and over again... so YOU don't have to, so you can go off and do other things...like sleep.....
FWIW this is NOT just an Energica specific problem either, most the bikes operate this way, and if you get a shitty cell, this is about the only way you can fix it without opening the entire pack up and magtabbing the low one.
NOW.....
does having a low cell or 3 mean your battery is bad... NO !!!!!
They can drift over time,especially under high demand situations. ie racing rapid charging. back to back to back charge recharge without settling out and doing a good balance on them. If left unbalanced and cycled over and over and over. the unbalance will work itself to a greater value, until its to the point it's throwing hard errors at you.
another thing that can really monkeyfuck a packs balance is fast charging or even regular charging with a battery pack that is thermally unbalanced.... ie it was a hot day, now it's 28 degrees out..... the cells in the inner core of the battery are at 70 degrees. the cells against the battery pack wall are at 30 degrees... just because of the temperature difference, the voltages can vary .3volts or so. but they ALL are at the same percent of charge state. Bike don't know this, so thinks it's unbalanced and tries to force charge a battery that is not really unbalanced... now once the temperature settles out across the pack, the whole pack is wonky because you forced more power into an already charged cell and let power out of ones that didn't need it. This happens to cars fairly frequently too, but since weight is NOT AS much a problem on them, most of them have better BMS, to deal with this than a bike does.
If you are getting that 'recommend proceeding to a full charge' message, you will HAVE to actually GET the bike to a 100 percent charge and it terminates the charge itself, to make that go away.
A small unbalance is not horrible, but can grow and become a problem.
Aaron
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Reach out to Chris Paz at Energica USA. He is the man to ask. Chris also frequents this forum, so perhaps you can PM him to reach him.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=8405
Seems like the charger dropped a phase internally and is operating the equivalent to 115V?
For next step, suggest plugging into 120V GFI outlet to ensure no ground fault current is present then continue to use it at de-rated setting...don't let charger get too hot...buys time to sort out a replacement charger.
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Reach out to Chris Paz at Energica USA. He is the man to ask. Chris also frequents this forum, so perhaps you can PM him to reach him.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=8405
Seems like the charger dropped a phase internally and is operating the equivalent to 115V?
For next step, suggest plugging into 120V GFI outlet to ensure no ground fault current is present then continue to use it at de-rated setting...don't let charger get too hot...buys time to sort out a replacement charger.
The chargers are: Powerland PLD3300-
EVCS02-420 OBC
https://www.powerlandtech.com/en/product-detail/27
But I don't know IF they need to be coded/software....
Also they're running on Single phase all along, so there's no possibility of a phase going out. More the charger failing, the software ore something else....
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I'm back to full charging power after Chris Paz changed out my charger today! Fortunately, I live close to the Energica USA office in San Francisco and could just ride over. I haven't been there before, but they seem to be running like normal despite what I'd heard from my local dealer. Unfortunately but also unsurprisingly, I couldn't get any insider info on what the future might hold.
I started taking the old charger apart, but will have to wait until I I can borrow some tools from work because it uses a weird mix of fasteners. I doubt I'll learn much unless I see something obvious.
I'm relieved and grateful to have that resolved. Coincidentally, the odometer just rolled over 40k miles this week. Hope I can keep it up without drama.
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Great to hear that!
It seems Energica US is much more 'self reliant' maybe even having some stock of spare parts which the EU counterparts do not have bc shipping them directly from Italy was easy.
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jojo
Energica USA IS more self reliant from what I have seen for a while.
This is also part of the reason IMO they want to split the company out into two entities Energica... Italy or Europe????? and Energica USA. First it makes sense tax wise, the laws are wildly different, and while I think Trump may be canning the program, if there are any incentives for building stuff here, Energica USA might qualify for them.
Energica USA has been doing business as usual through this entire mess here. They are still building bikes, They are still fixing bikes, they are still selling bikes. This, except for the first week of chaos, really has not changed their work ethic or MO at at all here in the states. This is a HUGE GOOD THING!!!
It shows any prospective buyers that the company IS alive and functioning, has a following, has a customer base and is really, ready to go full blast once again, as soon as the judge signs off on it.
Let's hope that this round, is a good one, they get a new owner and get back on their feet. I have a feeling that once they Do get a fresh start, and can be themselves without some scumbag on top of them stealing their money, that they'll do very well. They already have orders for a shit ton of the Experia's, and with a little advertising, I think they'll really be a hit. They'd make a great police vehicle. They'll easily last a day or three on a single charge, have a ton of room for ticket books, and all kinds of other crap that cops need to carry around. The maintenance is almost nothing and you won't sweat your ass off waiting in traffic or partrolling busy beaches, roads in the blistering summer heat. Realistically they can charge ANYWHERE there is electricity. You can literally plug it into any 115 plug you find. It can sip here and there if needed, it's really a versatile bike. It may be radical but, do up an EGO Corsa and that'd be a great chase / intercept bike on the highways for speeders. You could mount a gun turret on front of the thing and pew pew pew ;D 8) or being electric,just use a kilowatt laser, that'll take out a bad guy and could easily fit into one of the bags and power off the battery pack. Start burning holes in criminals and they'll pull over real quick ;)
Seriously though, they have an order book waiting for them, and there IS a market I firmly believe so it's not like a brand new startup where you have to hope it sells, it already has sold.
I keep buying my weekly lottery ticket hoping I hit a 10 million dollar jackpot so I could grab the thing. Id buy it up and say keep doing what you are doing. Make a few minor changes and let them have at it!
Aaron
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I'm back to full charging power after Chris Paz changed out my charger today! Fortunately, I live close to the Energica USA office in San Francisco and could just ride over. I haven't been there before, but they seem to be running like normal despite what I'd heard from my local dealer. Unfortunately but also unsurprisingly, I couldn't get any insider info on what the future might hold.
I started taking the old charger apart, but will have to wait until I I can borrow some tools from work because it uses a weird mix of fasteners. I doubt I'll learn much unless I see something obvious.
I'm relieved and grateful to have that resolved. Coincidentally, the odometer just rolled over 40k miles this week. Hope I can keep it up without drama.
I have the same charging issues that you mention. I'm good up to 10A but anything higher triggers the cycle of clicking and 0 effective charging. 2024 Ribelle RS with the PLD3300-EVCS02-420 Charger POWERLAND P/N: 9CB033000100. So far I have just lived with it at 10A but sure makes the charging slower at work and home. Thankfully everything else on the bike is perfect so I've been hesitant to reach out and take action to have it addressed... wish somehow it was a charger specific firmware update I could somehow manage, or swap the part myself some day... thanks for posting the follow up on this knowing it was the charger and a replacement solved it!
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IMO, the fan cooling for the onboard charger is marginal particulary on hot summer months...I've measured heatsink temperatures approaching 60C...can only imagine power device die temperatures...yes, they can withstand an amazing level, but there's no magic to reliability.
Reducing the output from 15Amps to 12Amps reduces the temperature significantly w/o much of a compromise to charge time...it all depends on ambient temperature.
As a general rule, every 10C decrease in temperature doubles the longevity of silicon devices...worth thinking about given the situation we are in.
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if you have a black bike, that is less than helpful as well. The material helps convert the sunlight to lw ir, and really heats the crap out of stuff even before you start charging. now throw in a hot Florida, or any tropical / desert day and yah toasty time. My fairing on my ribelle got so hot at times it'd literally burn your hand, so i started laying a towel over it just to act like a barrier so there isn't the direct sunlight just converting and cooking. v The Ego is under a tent but still those 20 minutes in the sun, hot hot hot. hot tires...good hot fairings / battery not good
aaron