ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Harley LiveWire Forum => Topic started by: Richard230 on December 19, 2024, 06:48:17 AM
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https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/livewires-next-model-is-the-s2-alpinista-44614648
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I'm really impressed by how much effort they're putting in. They must be burning great mountains of cash to try and establish a market. I've still never seen a single LiveWire in the wild in the UK. Then again I've only ever seen one Zero.
Cas :)
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The real question is: Is it really an Adventure bike?
If so, will @ADVENTURESonZERO take advantage of a factory equipped model or will he continue to cobble together his own adventure machines from street models.
;)
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Here is an initial review of the LiveWire S2 Alpinista: https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/2025-livewire-s2-alpinista-first-look-44615602
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If I was made of money I’d get one of these S2’s. Nice aesthetic, light weight, and I’m sure they handle well. Kind of a modernized Zero S-platform built by people who understand motorcycle dynamics better. The price, though! When all is said and done, you’re looking at $18k OTD, and I would need it to do a lot more than fun local rides for that kind of cash.
The S2 is kind of a “missing middle” for e-motos, and unfortunately proves why the middle is missing.
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Still that inexplicable pricing. We know batteries aren't that expensive, and the rest of the bike is no fancier than anything else. Something smells off.
Cas :)
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70 highway miles with a 10kw battery. Hmmm. I dunno about that one.
the more aggressive riders stance, why? Not comfortable, on a heavier bike NOT fun keeping it upright at stoplights, low speeds etc etc. I know when I take my EGO on the road, yes I know a totally different class of bike, but still, that aggressive stance, you waiting for a light to change it's like oh come ON already, my back is killing me !!
otherwise yah that's a nice looking bike, but at that price range for the performance. umm...
Aaron
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Still that inexplicable pricing. We know batteries aren't that expensive, and the rest of the bike is no fancier than anything else. Something smells off.
Cas :)
The pricing has been a head-scratcher ever since the Livewire ELW1 launched at $30k. It’s like someone is trying to make sure the electric effort fails. They keep pumping money into it, though!
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The price is almost like they are saying, well if you want electric, you can afford to pay a ton for it, mr richy rich guy. Like a part for a car is 3 bucks but if you put the exact same thing on a boat it's 23 dollars. They are high now but will come down with volume as we sell a ton more. umm no not really, because you are NOT selling a ton of them, and it's not like computers where you are putting out faster models every other week to push the prices down.
The thing I still don't get is, everyone blames the battery, the price of lithium is SOOO expensive, yet there pretty much are zero recycling efforts going on. They throw the batteries away left and right. Even the AA, AAA you buy for your camera, why not recycle those? You hear the horror stories of all these fires, well most of them are blown out of proportion due to the hate for electric vehicles, and also, the clown car, not bothering to learn how to fight one of those fires properly. Keep them below freezing and the chem reaction all but stops. Li / Co / Cu .. good money in them.
Aaron
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I think they're expensive simply because they don't need to make them cheap and sell a ton, so they can be an expensive boutique brand just like daddy Harley. They had half a billion dollars handed to them, they're not struggling to stay afloat. Perhaps not the best for those investors but they knew what they were getting involved in.
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That's unfortunately true TheRan, there is no 'need' yet. General Motors is the same cancer. Their vehicles are mediocre, the electronics in my silverado just suck, buggy as shit and here 8 years later, they STILL suck, nothing has really changed. They don't have to. GM does not have to be competitive, they fuck up and lose money the govt just throws them another 2 or 3 billion dollar bailout. No incentive to do better there.
The investors, they are in the gtfo phase now, they see what's going on for most of them. The majority already been pillaged of the loot and are on their way out. Take a look at Ideanomics as a fine example of that e-raping. I have a feeling Trump is not going to rescind anything but he also is telling them, you days at the feeding trough are OVER. If you can't make it on your own then you are done, no more subsidies. Many will bitch but it is the proper way. Maybe that will be the catalyst that pushes recycling, because now they NEED to?? who knows.
The big thing is going to be getting rid of the batteries. disposing of them, it's going to be treated as hazmat, and will get very costly. Maybe they are trying to say the price of the vehicle is the disposal pre baked in? A regular car you drain the fluids and the thing can rust out on a lot somewhere, no HUGE deal. A Lion battery now, the Li and Hydroxides in it, yah can't really let that loose. Harley always been expensive, can't stop now can we?
Aaron
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LiveWire claims the battery can be charged from 20-80% in 5.9 hours on a Level 1 charger and in 78 minutes with a Level 2 charger.
I get 4.85 kw on board charger. Same as I remember from the other bikes in this platform.
They must have new left overs from 2024 (del mar and mulholland) wonder what the discount if any is.
The front fender being so minimal and the massive button holding casing where the high low beam selector goes is kind of off putting. They sent me emails about it but the links are less informative than the article linked above.
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LiveWire claims the battery can be charged from 20-80% in 5.9 hours on a Level 1 charger and in 78 minutes with a Level 2 charger.
I get 4.85 kw on board charger. Same as I remember from the other bikes in this platform.
They must have new left overs from 2024 (del mar and mulholland) wonder what the discount if any is.
The front fender being so minimal and the massive button holding casing where the high low beam selector goes is kind of off putting. They sent me emails about it but the links are less informative than the article linked above.
I haven’t seen any killer deals on S2’s yet during my idle Cycletrader window shopping. The best Livewire deals are still the LV ONE / HD ELW1, which I’ve seen hovering around $10-12k with L3 capability and a lot more range and torque (albiet much heavier). I’d even be a little tempted if they had any real luggage capability (mods from Diego Cardenas notwithstanding) and if I didn’t expect the bankruptcy fears to bring about some phenomenal deals on Energicas.
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In France, prices are getting way down on the 1st September : 10000€ for an Alpinista for example. So, I'm looking on the net for informations, and I see that the range is, once again, too small in my opinion. Only 194km announced in the city, so on roads or highway... Plus not a lot of dealers for now, the nearest is not even in the range of the bike.
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Current price cuts make these bikes suddenly very attractive.
Cas :)
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Massive price cuts in the US
https://electrek.co/2025/08/29/livewire-slashes-prices-with-extreme-sales-on-electric-motorcycles/ (https://electrek.co/2025/08/29/livewire-slashes-prices-with-extreme-sales-on-electric-motorcycles/)
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This time the email and the links in it are more informative than the article. At participating dealers, not on company owned machines whatever that means. 2024 and 2025 models, Long list of added fees possible. Maybe the folks on here are used to that kind of fees on new left over bikes. Is it one of those deals when you pay sales tax on the before incentive price, Ct is that way when I buy a pick up "truck". Another thing just to ponder is if it needs something really expensive uinder warranty you might just get bought out for what it really would sell for on the used market.
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When I see a "fire sale" like that it makes me wonder if the company is going out of business and the dealers are just trying to clear their inventory before the business goes into the dumpster.
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When I see a "fire sale" like that it makes me wonder if the company is going out of business and the dealers are just trying to clear their inventory before the business goes into the dumpster.
Yep, there are often clues. They are not going to have a "fire sale" when business is doing great.
For another example, when A&S mentioned they could not get parts for Energica, they assumed the business was then failing. We know what happened next.
Perhaps the very first clue there was when we could order but not get the center stand for the Experia.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I guess this is an activity to secure the budget year 2026.
Fix and variable cost are anyway much much higher than the margin made with the bikes.
Just take average cost of staff times the staff count. Say, 100.000p.a. X 182 (reported staff in 2024)
=> 18,2mio. cost ONLY on staff. No building rent, energy, tools&equipment amortization
Average bike price is…?… say 15.000. Times #bikes sold (Reportes 620 for 2024) times 30% margin (blind guess)
=> 2,8mio earings before tax
So why not even lower the earnings but ass the same polish up the sales volume? Business is anyway depending on investors… and they like volume…
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Even at 10 to 12k, the S2 bikes are a hard sell for most buyers with the limited range and charging, so I think sales volume is still going to be pretty low. Trying to go after the middleweight road-going segment was a bad idea from the start. That segment puts a spotlight on all the weaknesses of electric, and you end up with a big list of negatives vs ICE for most potential buyers, and the positives are only understood by the electric faithful who already have a similar bike, which equals marketing doom.
You can make a compelling electric in the ultra-premium space the Energica way by making no compromises, and you can find a niche like Stark’s dirt bikes where the ICE competition is also range-limited and not meant for long distance touring. What you can’t do is throw an electric dart at a random market segment and expect big sales when you have half the range of the ICE bikes at twice the price. That attitude shows a lack of respect and understanding of the technology, which the motorcycle market was correct to punish, IMO. It’s one thing to design and release bikes the way CanAm did as a way of developing expertise in the trial-by-fire of an actual product and not expecting to make their money back, but Livewire spent a lot of money and put high hopes on a Quixotic endeavor that was doomed from the start. An endeavor that the likes of Triumph and Ducati were smart enough to avoid, even as they invested serious money into prototypes.
I want to like the Livewire bikes, I really do. The One has dipped to $8k to $10k and is very compelling in a lot of ways, with L3 fast charging and reportedly-excellent handling characteristics. But when I think about giving up my FJR for something with no luggage or passenger accommodations, less than 100 miles of range, no L2 charging, and very little effective dealer support, I just can’t do it. Not for $8k, not even for $5k. It’s emblematic that Harley spent all that money sponsoring Ewan and Charlie in The Long Way Up, customized their Livewires for luggage, and then didn’t sell the Long Way Up adventure kit to the public or feature it in their marketing. They also didn’t even try to compete with Energica on pricing, range, or features. Instead of releasing a limited run of Livewire Ones to test the market, they went whole hog (no pun intended) and flooded cruiser-oriented dealerships with overpriced bikes that they couldn’t sell. As a second act, instead of focusing on something like an electric Pan America with a bigger battery and better charging, they went after the 650 to 900cc-equivalent segment, which is the toughest nut to crack and will probably be the very last segment where electrics are strong sellers.* It’s almost like someone dared them to see if they could spend the most money and sell the fewest bikes. I seriously can’t think of anything else they could have done to spend more money while selling less bikes.
*Zero did have success in this segment in the 2010’s, but they were pretty much the only electric game in town, their bikes represented the state of the art at the time, and almost none of the electric-curious buyers already had an e-moto. They also kept their sales expectations and expenditures reasonable.
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I think that analysis is spot-on, though I think range-wise, most bikers will come to accept 100 miles of real-world range to be adequate... but only if the price is roughly on a par with an ICE bike of the same power. Right now Zero SRs are effectively competing with MT-07s and GSX-8s and the like but cost 50% more. It's got to be price parity for people to make that tradeoff on the inconvenience.
Cas :)
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Harley in general are finding themselves on a losing battle. Their bikes are insanely expensive, they really don't have any entry level or starter bikes anymore, like the street glide? is it, and the things are maintenance intensive and basically, designed to break and be repaired.
You want a snazzy bike that looks cool, get a Triumph, and if you change the oil on time, and do the little stuff it'll last 100k miles and still be an awesome bike.
You want a snazzy bike that looks cool, get a Harley and now you have to decide how much more you want to spend to make it run correctly with this upgrade, and that up side, and this oversize, and oh we did the top end, but you'll blow your lower end out if you don't do that as well, bla bla, not to mention you are then told, well expect to overhaul this at 30k miles, redo your top end at this time, a valve job at that time. you already have planned MAJOR repairs on the damned thing and you didn't even get it out of the dealer yet.
The newer harley stuff is crap, i hear from a lot of old die hard harley guys, cheaply made, breaks easy, does not look at good etc etc. not to mention none of them like the digital shit... that was one of the draws of the ole hogs, is you can work on them yourself, modify, customize etc, and with electronic this that and the next thing that all goes out the window.
Harley is dying, they just won't admit it yet, and their recent stint with woke, will be the final nail in their coffin that they will not recover from this time, unfortunately for them.
finally, of all the harley owners i know, which is a LOT, it seems like the always got something wrong with the bike, it's constantly in the shop for this or that or the next thing. you don't see that nearly as much with the euro bikes or jap bikes, they run, run very wel and last a long time.
they had a chance when livewire first came out but didn't even do that right. it's like every time someone does something stupid with strategy or marketing, harley goes. 'Murica !! hold my beer....
Aaron
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Do you think BMW has a better EV sales plan than H-D? ;) https://www.visordown.com/news/bmw-unveils-vision-ce-electric-scooter-roll-cage
Of course, BMW did try the "enclosed" scooter concept before and it turned into a big sales flop. So why not give it another try? ::)
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BMW are deliberately dragging their heels on EVs.
As for this joke of a scooter, it'll be even more of a flop than the original. I wonder who exactly signed it off. It was clearly such a stupid idea that there must be some secret machinations going on behind the scenes for it to have happened.
Cas :)
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It makes me want to go for a stoppie and then roll right over onto two wheels again.
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put the same type bars on the sides and you have the short bus of bikes, just add a drool cup and you are in!
Aaron
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of all the harley owners i know, which is a LOT, it seems like the always got something wrong with the bike, it's constantly in the shop for this or that or the next thing.
Lol, almost exactly my exposure to Harley owners as well. They fall into one of two groups, the first buys a new battery every single time they ride it because its that long between drinks. The second the bike spends more time on a trailer heading off to be fixed or in pieces getting fixed as it does on the road.
Having said that, I never seen a single Livewire of Panamerica on the road, so their newer and more adventurous models do exactly sell volume. I've seen more Bimotas than Livewires!
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i seen a livewire at the track a few times, i wanted to go a few laps with him but he politely declined saying he cant after about a lap and a half, that'd be 3 ish miles his bike starts overheating. not sure if that's a livewire thing, and old livewire thing, or just a dicked up bike thing, but thats the only time i seen one. ive seen a pair of experia's on the road from time to time coming home from a track weekend, they trailer them and i wave as i pass them.
seen one e mustang, he wanted to race me, i was at 42 percent battery but figuered what the hell, lets have fun,the road was empty, the train had traffic closed off and we came in on the back side, so... game on. he got the jump on me, my bike was not as zippy on the takeoff with less than half a battery and i gotta go easy on the ribelle anyways, she likes to wheelie, but i waved to him a little down the road when i passed him at 138, didn't have my dragy on but pretty sure i took him within 1/4 mile or so.
other than that i have not seen any electric bikes really or any performance cars. yah the tesla's are fairly abundant, but just the normal ones.
the harleys if it's not an engine problem it's, well this fell off, that is loose, this won't open / turn / flip / flop anymore, that spins around, and seems electrical problems with switches and stuff are common. to be honest, the way those things shake and bounce around like a giant dildo, all the stuff loose rattling and switches goofy and wiring loose is not surprising no bike is going to be able to put up with that kind of mechanical vibration and stay tight. with the kind of money they pour into those bikes, youd expect them to keep up a bit better and not keep falling apart, but they come to accept that as part of owning a harley. im sorry but if im pissing 30 to 50 grand on a bike i want that thing to run years before i have to rebuild the top end, or redo the tranny, or throw a rod. or... whatever... goldwings are insanely expensive too but i hear they keep up fairly well. was looking at the triumph's, those look pretty nice but heard both good and bad about them. of course the dealer is going to say they are the best thing since sliced bread but you know how that is.
aaron
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Do you think BMW has a better EV sales plan than H-D?
Of course, BMW did try the "enclosed" scooter concept before and it turned into a big sales flop. So why not give it another try? ::)
I guess they understood why the C1 flopped: engine too small - they were going after housewifes with a car license only, who in Europe were allowed to ride 125cc motorbikes/scooters, but totally forgot to market the C1 to men with a motorbike license who wanted a bigger engine (e.g. ME! I bought a Gilera Runner instead after test riding the C1 and being quite disappointed of its acceleration). After all, Vespa (the market leader of scooters) is selling way more 300cc (their largest engine) than 125cc scooters.
And because of the damn folding fork (again for housewifes) the C1 got too heavy and wobbly.
The new enclosed scooter will be lightweight and most probably not underpowered - the current BMW CE04 is quite capable. I am pretty sure this time it won't flop.
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Even at 10 to 12k, the S2 bikes are a hard sell for most buyers with the limited range and charging, so I think sales volume is still going to be pretty low.
Guess what - in Germany they lowered the price in September, and within 4 weeks they were sold out. I don't know how many bikes they had available, but two weeks ago I rode the very last two (demonstration) bikes in Munich (Alpinista and Mulholland), and bought the latter one because of the better knee grip. On the Alpinista your kneecaps are pressing against the cooling fins of the battery, which does NOT feel good. The Mulholland has a seat with cushions where you can rest your thighs, which feels quite OK (but nothing beats the knee grip of the 1997 Honda VTR 1000 Superhawk).
I want to like the Livewire bikes, I really do. The One has dipped to $8k to $10k and is very compelling in a lot of ways,
Yuck. Longitudinal motor with 90-degree straight-toothed deflection, the only reason for its existence was that it sounds "different" than anything else - but it sounds awful.
They should have switched to toroidal bevel gears long ago, maybe then they would sell a few...
The S2 has transverse motors (from German manufacturer Bosch), which are even quieter than Zero motors.
with L3 fast charging and reportedly-excellent handling characteristics. But ... I just can’t do it. Not for $8k, not even for $5k.
I keep my Buell XB12 for longer runs, and will use the Mulholland for shorter trips. Have an hour of fun after work, let it charge over night...