ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: Pard on November 28, 2024, 07:15:00 PM
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This sounds very promising!
https://thepack.news/update-energica-liquidation-in-progress/
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There are people interested, at least on the US side, I can not speak for the Italian side as I do not know anyone over there really, but they have to wait for the process to clear before they can do anything.
I have a feeling the economy will be picking up as well, so people will have more free money to spend, and investors wont be so spooked about putting money into something like this either.
If the investor really looks into it, which anyone with half a brain should, they can easily see this is not a startup venture, or a, Hey I got an idea, this is a solid company, solid game plan, a book full of orders, just waiting for some cash and the fog to clear so they can get back to work doing what they do best...make electric bikes !!
The American team is very solid, and are ready to run, just need to get the judge to give them a green light. They've been doing this all along as much as they are allowed to with the current conditions.
I think 25 is going to be a wonderful year for all.
Aaron
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Some Companys have all the luck.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1145202_recaro-automotive-saved-from-bankruptcy-by-proma-group?utm_source=MA+-+Daily+Headlines&utm_campaign=6ea7bb30b1-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_12_04_10_05&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fed581d99a-6ea7bb30b1-54813140
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Here's another article about KTM insolvency (in German).
According to this source, KTM has debts in sum of whopping 1.8 billion and is sitting on 130,000 unsold bikes.
That is somewhat surprising, considering that revenue in 2023 was 2 billion with a net profit of more than 100 million.
Sales for KTM in Europe are down 14% in Europe (while overall bike market rose by 5%) and shocking 36% in North America.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/nach-ktm-insolvenz-creditreform-erwartet-europaweite-entwicklung-110148840.html
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I was at Chapparal jumbo dealer here in So Cal USA and they had all of their KTM models heavily discounted but my garage/ savings is too small for any additional motorbikes hahaha. Energica is still my favorite!
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This is copied from a post on ADVRIDER.com
Energica Motor Company s.p.a. Auction
Competitive sale procedure for the branch of Energica Motor Company S.p.A. The complex of assets, rights, and business relationships subject to this competitive procedure support the study, development, design, production, and commercialization of high-performance electric motorcycles and engines, both for racing and non-racing applications, as further described in the Call for Tenders dated December 16, 2024.
Base auction price 5.700.000,00 €
Minimum offer 4.275.000,00 €
Auction date 30/01/2025
Offer submission deadline 29/01/2025 15:00
https://pvp.giustizia.it/pvp/en/detail_annuncio.page?idAnnuncio=4303553
Doc 9_Bando di vendita ENG.pdf on the site is all the details in English.
Hat tip to DominusFL
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Look at the attachments, there's an inventory. It contains 5 unfinished Experias with the VINs ranging from 368 to 380.
Does that mean only 367 Experias have been built and delivered?
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They could have skipped around a bit but not very likely.
Built probably, delivered, maybe not.
Aaron
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Look at the attachments, there's an inventory. It contains 5 unfinished Experias with the VINs ranging from 368 to 380.
Does that mean only 367 Experias have been built and delivered?
There were quite a few of these destined for police operations in one or two countries I believe. There may also be quite a few in dealer showrooms around the world which have gone "unsold"...but yes...not many world wide.
Which makes them a very rare motorcycle....I understand even race ICE "homologation" motorcycle models had minimum production runs of at least 500 examples for them to be accepted.
I know of only three customer examples of the Experia in Australia and possibly two demonstators at our one and only main dealer...so only 5 in the country, of which mine is one and it was the very first Experia to touch Australian soil, VIN #029. Aus is a pretty big place too, very close to ~90% of the entire USA mainland in area.
Smithy.
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Hopefully about Beginning / Mid February we hear that Energica has been bought, the responsible adults are back in control and in a few weeks they will begin churning out bikes again and catching up on backorders for parts etc etc and what they have to do to try to rebuild customer relations with their existing customers.
Fortunately though, most the people know they got fucked and the malfeasance was NOT on Energica directly, so while the brand may take a hit initially it won't be a permanent badge of shame on them, like it was THEM intentionally screwing customers. Another good thing is, they are already established and basically revving the engines waiting for the light to turn green and they are going to hit the ground running, it's not like they will have to totally retool or re invent anything or any such actions, they are ready and they are ready NOW. It's hopefully basically going to be one of those, ok, the paperwork is cleared, all the lines are signed and the judge says to get back to work !!
who knows, maybe Lightning will make their millions, start making bikes, Energica is back in hands of adults and begins putting world class quality bikes out again and I get my wish of being able to actually race one of the lightnings head to head with an EGO and compare with video's etc to see how they really stand up to each other. At the very least that event would be a ton of fun and get a lot of GOOD PR to the electric bike front.
Time will tell.
Aaron
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Hopefully about Beginning / Mid February we hear that Energica has been bought, the responsible adults are back in control and in a few weeks they will begin churning out bikes again and catching up on backorders for parts etc etc and what they have to do to try to rebuild customer relations with their existing customers.
Fortunately though, most the people know they got fucked and the malfeasance was NOT on Energica directly, so while the brand may take a hit initially it won't be a permanent badge of shame on them, like it was THEM intentionally screwing customers. Another good thing is, they are already established and basically revving the engines waiting for the light to turn green and they are going to hit the ground running, it's not like they will have to totally retool or re invent anything or any such actions, they are ready and they are ready NOW. It's hopefully basically going to be one of those, ok, the paperwork is cleared, all the lines are signed and the judge says to get back to work !!
who knows, maybe Lightning will make their millions, start making bikes, Energica is back in hands of adults and begins putting world class quality bikes out again and I get my wish of being able to actually race one of the lightnings head to head with an EGO and compare with video's etc to see how they really stand up to each other. At the very least that event would be a ton of fun and get a lot of GOOD PR to the electric bike front.
Time will tell.
Aaron
The local dealer networks needs to be rebuilt. Can they?
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That's a rough one Pard, and the question I am sure they are wanting an answer to.
I do not see why not.
Only one who was kind of a shitbag to begin with, down here really went away that i know of. Energica New England and AF1 racing I believe are still on board, as well as Mission Foods if I am not mistaken. I do not know of the Dealers out more west you'd have to ask one of those who deal with them how they are faring.
They should still have the equipment the programmers etc etc so should still be able to do what they need to. Besides for energica specific stuff, which there probably is very little, like flashing new code and stuff, most of the stuff could be done by any bike dealer / shop who knows how to work on bikes. I am getting ready to order the stuff I need to do tha annuals on my bikes and the 500 mile, well shit its almost 1500 now :) on my experia so will probably go with AF1 / New England or maybe even split out the order to support both of them for staying with the brand thru this.
Even if Energica lost most their dealers up front, most of their sales they could do in house, you call, talk to them, go over details do the paperwork and they ship your bike out to you. Ideally the only thing you need to do then is get insurance and the dreaded trip to the DMV, the bike is literally dropped off to you ready to ride. To be honest, most people who own one, who are not fortunate enough to actually live by a dealer, this is the route they probably took anyways, or a LDR with their closest dealer.
With new ownership who is PROPERLY supporting them, I don't see why they would not win back dealers with a bit of support. Even if they do it themselves it'd be a WIN for the customer who would save a few thousand easy on dealer markup.
Aaron
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The local dealer networks needs to be rebuilt. Can they?
Do they really need to though?
Does Tesla have dealerships? Is this the time to try direct sales model for Energica?
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The local dealer networks needs to be rebuilt. Can they?
Do they really need to though?
Does Tesla have dealerships? Is this the time to try direct sales model for Energica?
Dealers make their money on the sale.
No dealer would bother if all they could do were software updates, and diagnostics for major failures, which require shipping to the factory.
Few dealers have the capacity to do the big time repairs.
IMHO
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I would prefer dealers. I hate dealing with Tesla corporate service centers. Slow and pathetic, no fucks given about anything.
That said, back in the day when they were small it was not this way.
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Zero tried the direct sales very early on and it didn't work out for them which is why they are now sold through dealers. People always make the comparison with Tesla as far as direct sales goes but Tesla has their own service centers and I can't see that being practical for Energica or any other motorcycle brand. The volume of sales just isn't there to justify the expense of setting up service centers for a specific electric motorcycle brand.
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Having a dealer is almost always going to be a better way, because many people just want to bring the bike in and have whatever it needs, taken care of. When it comes to buying, many, myself included want to actually SEE it, sit on it, feel it, ride it, not just look at a picture and then go, ok, yah I think that'll work. For that kind of $$ I want to KNOW.
As for sales, if the company is responsive, answers phone calls, and you can talk to a person then it'd probably work. What most people despise is when you can't get in touch with anyone, or worse, they come at you with that big greasy ass foot long used car salesman smile, but the moment they get your money, you can't get in touch with anyone anymore. Energica has never been this way, even now with their issues, you can still get people to answer the phone or reply to an e mail. If they went to a internet sales thing I don't think it'd harm too bad, thats pretty much how it worked to this point, except for those who actually DID live near a dealer and were able to go in and see one, touch it etc. I honestly think they'd do a LOT better with dealers but what comes next remains to be seen.
The market for electric bikes is just too small for a stand alone dealership at this point, IMO, unless it was something like a shop in a strip mall, with a few bikes, a few people working at, a mom and pop type of thing I think would work exceptionally well, not a big dealership type of thing, they just don't have the thruput yet to support that kind of showroom. As a side, they could also work on other models of electric bikes as well, the Zero's and Live Wires IF those manu's would allow it.
Aaron
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Any word on the Energica auction on January 30? Who bought the company? Outlook seemed positive but haven't seen any information or discussion.
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So far the news isn’t good. The official post was that no offers were received.
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Yeah, that is really bad news!
I hoped that at least some Chinese company would bid.
Apparently the news travelled fast. Here in Germany there is a 2021 EGO on offer with less than 8000 km for 8k €. Fault: It does not start.
It seems someone does not expect the bike to be repaired ever.
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Is the Energica company website shut down? I keep getting "This site can't be reached". Did the bankruptcy trustee close it down? Any word from dealers?
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The website is having issues, they are NOT shut down or out of business.
It's looking like some hosting issue bs.
I had this happen to my website a few weeks ago, some php bullshit got updated and it wasn't compatible with a few of my db's, so I had to roll back the version to get it back online because im too lazy/stupid to convert the tables over to the recent version.
anyways, it's a host issue NOT them going away afaik
aaron
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Thanks - it freaked me out - I feel better now.
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I saw somewhere that energica sold over 1milion vehicles
i know this is wishful thinking but if every owner pledge 5$, then we get all patents like open source
Will be great to be a capable of making own parts or software/app changes
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1 Millionen??
A handcrafted motorcycle... The numbers can't be right?!
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1 Millionen??
A handcrafted motorcycle... The numbers can't be right?!
In an interview with the German Motorrad magazine in October '24 Livia Cevolini mentioned that they have overall about 2000 customers worldwide.
Doing some maths - she also said they had about 1100 orders for the Experia, with less than half of them been produced.
This leaves then about 1500 bikes of the Eva/Ego-platform out in the wild.
Best, Jens
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If Livia quoted the number of units is should be accurate. The public Auction Documents from the trustee that has Energica's balance sheet from 2018 through 2023. (Doc 2_Relazione di stima ramo Energica e allegati - file to large to attached - but it is online). On page 7 the cost of goods are shown - you can divide the cost of goods over the years by a price you feel they sold each motorcycle at - they did not publish number of units but you have the cost - as a rough estimate if you use $20,000 per unit it works out to about 2,500 units produced (not sold) - but you can do your own math and determine the number of units you think were produced. Also it shows the 6 year period from 2018 through 2023 that they lost -47,622,306 Euros. It is all in the auction documents from the trustee. I got burned by Ideanomics - Energica was the best part of their portfolio so it is sad.
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The website is having issues, they are NOT shut down or out of business.
It's looking like some hosting issue bs.
I had this happen to my website a few weeks ago, some php bullshit got updated and it wasn't compatible with a few of my db's, so I had to roll back the version to get it back online because im too lazy/stupid to convert the tables over to the recent version.
anyways, it's a host issue NOT them going away afaik
aaron
I don't think you're right Aaron. Unfortunately. If a website is down for so long, my guess is it's over and out. As sad as it is.
Chris
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I'll ask and see what I can find out. When I asked earlier, they were not aware it was down. Lets see if I can find anything.
aaron
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1 Millionen??
A handcrafted motorcycle... The numbers can't be right?!
In an interview with the German Motorrad magazine in October '24 Livia Cevolini mentioned that they have overall about 2000 customers worldwide.
Doing some maths - she also said they had about 1100 orders for the Experia, with less than half of them been produced.
This leaves then about 1500 bikes of the Eva/Ego-platform out in the wild.
Best, Jens
1milion is overkill, but 2500 sound very low amount
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I think the 2500 figure sounds about right. In two years they produced less then 400 experia, which is after they went through their factory expansion.
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That is also about the time ideanomics fucked them too, bought then starved them out.
I thought they'd be in the 10k range or so on overall bikes, they have been making them for what 10 years now?
Aaron
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It seems the bottom line is that Energica lost nearly 50 millions by building and selling about 2000-2500 bikes. That is loss of about 20-25K per bike. Ouch.
Hindsight is wonderful but often sad. The product was good, but the market saturated quickly. Unlike Zero, all the eggs were in one basked. All products in the top price range. All in the powerful streetbike category (it's been ages since I last saw a new liter streetbike on the street). No offroad bike, no midrange bike, no small bike, no low price option to get people to the Energica family. Only close to the end was there a street focused adventure look bike. Maybe focus was on expanding production instead of keeping costs down. Maybe too much money spent on the racing division. Like KTM they seem to have been woefully underprepared for reduced motorcycle sales.
It's sad how it seems to have ended. I hope someone can come in and save what can be saved.
Here is a recent Energica website backup from the internet archive. https://web.archive.org/web/20241003161637/https://www.energicamotor.com/us/
Good points.
I wonder how many they would sell if the price of the bike was set high enough to make some profit per unit at the lowest sales rate. If the Rebbelle cost 50K, how many would they sell?
If they made a unit similar to the Zero FXE and priced that to make a profit, would that seel and draw sales from Zero?
All acedemic now, but interesting to speculate.
IMHO, the lack of fast charging availability in most of the USA was the killer. If the Government was serious about electrification, they would have improved the grid, improved and diversified power delivery to that grid, and made fast charging electric available at every gas station. That was all just lip service.
My performance addicted riding circle who all have at least one liter bike in their stable would not consider the Energica due to lack of charging availability. I was the only one who took the plunge. No regrets.
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I am still somewhat bemused as to why Zero didn't buy them with some of their VC cash at a bargain basement price, giving themselves a massive headstart on a liquid cooled high voltage powertrain.
Cas :)
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It seems the bottom line is that Energica lost nearly 50 millions by building and selling about 2000-2500 bikes. That is loss of about 20-25K per bike. Ouch.
Hindsight is wonderful but often sad. The product was good, but the market saturated quickly. Unlike Zero, all the eggs were in one basked. All products in the top price range. All in the powerful streetbike category (it's been ages since I last saw a new liter streetbike on the street). No offroad bike, no midrange bike, no small bike, no low price option to get people to the Energica family. Only close to the end was there a street focused adventure look bike. Maybe focus was on expanding production instead of keeping costs down. Maybe too much money spent on the racing division. Like KTM they seem to have been woefully underprepared for reduced motorcycle sales.
It's sad how it seems to have ended. I hope someone can come in and save what can be saved.
Here is a recent Energica website backup from the internet archive. https://web.archive.org/web/20241003161637/https://www.energicamotor.com/us/
Good points.
I wonder how many they would sell if the price of the bike was set high enough to make some profit per unit at the lowest sales rate. If the Rebbelle cost 50K, how many would they sell?
If they made a unit similar to the Zero FXE and priced that to make a profit, would that seel and draw sales from Zero?
All acedemic now, but interesting to speculate.
IMHO, the lack of fast charging availability in most of the USA was the killer. If the Government was serious about electrification, they would have improved the grid, improved and diversified power delivery to that grid, and made fast charging electric available at every gas station. That was all just lip service.
My performance addicted riding circle who all have at least one liter bike in their stable would not consider the Energica due to lack of charging availability. I was the only one who took the plunge. No regrets.
My recollection is that when Energica first marketed their bikes in California the MSRP was around $30K USD. I don't think they sold many at that price, but things picked up after the MSRP was dropped into the lower $20K range.
Attached is a price list for an EVA from 2017.
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All automotive startup OEMs burn a lot of cash for a long time. Toyota lost money for 17 straight years after they entered the North American market. It’s just the price of entry, and not unique to Energica or e-motos. It’s also not why they went into bankruptcy court. Zero has been a private company this whole time so they haven’t had to publish financials, but I bet their numbers look pretty similar.
As to why they didn’t buy Energica, I think they figure they can switch to higher voltage and DC fast charging any time they decide to, and don’t need to buy a competitor to do it.
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The website is having issues, they are NOT shut down or out of business.
It's looking like some hosting issue bs.
I had this happen to my website a few weeks ago, some php bullshit got updated and it wasn't compatible with a few of my db's, so I had to roll back the version to get it back online because im too lazy/stupid to convert the tables over to the recent version.
anyways, it's a host issue NOT them going away afaik
aaron
I don't think you're right Aaron. Unfortunately. If a website is down for so long, my guess is it's over and out. As sad as it is.
Chris
I think you are right - this horse is dead. that's the end of it . whoever own an energica motorcycle needs to ride it carefully. there will be no parts available to fix them. and there will be no dealerships that will hold the software to read the internal computer. this is the problem with these advanced machines - no way to fix them at home.
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I believe the software will be/has been released to the dealers. But yes, try not to crash.
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website is back, that's one thing going the right way :D
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I have been trying the website, I needed the dealer list for east coast US - https://www.energicamotor.com/ - keep getting the same response - This site can’t be reached. It seems to down since the auction. Anyone have dealer names west New Jersey - Philly area?
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Auction is back on again. Minimum bid is now below 4 Mio EUR:
https://pvp.giustizia.it/pvp/it/detail_annuncio.page?idAnnuncio=4334419
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This is like a telenovela.
The heroine was raped and pushed into poverty by the villain and is now waiting until the white knight appears ::)
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Does the webarchive not work? https://web.archive.org/web/20241003161637/https://www.energicamotor.com/us/
[/quote]
T.S. Thank you - yes it works - sincerely appreciate the help.
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Really have my fingers crossed on this one. 4mm Euros is chump change for an operation of this scale, so any hesitation must have more to do with the liabilities than the purchase price. If Energica goes down, it will set e-motos back by at least 5 years, IMO.
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Italy is also renowned for it's bureaucracy, sometimes much worse than the US's red tape is. God only knows how many permits, this, that, fill in this form, dot that line etc they have to jump through as well.
We have the money, is it certified? what do you mean certified? Oh, you need to go do THIS form, then go to see THOSE people, get THIS approval BEFORE you can go see THAT group and give them this other form, to get permission to fill out these other forms.... you get the idea.
I remember when I was applying for the mortgage on my house, well we need to see this.... produce papers..well can you verify that.... ok verified... well we need additional information about this... on and on and on. I can kind of see something like buying an already operational company, with debts, and most likely structured paybacks etc etc, being at least as difficult to try to navigate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VveTsyjFlNA
Aaron
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Seems the reason the site is down is because they did not pay their host / provider bill.
When in bankruptcy, companies typically have a custodian who oversees 'stuff' and any money in and out is very tightly controlled.
Probably the bill came up and they did not bother to pay it because in their eyes, (their being the custodian, whomever that is,) paying the internet bill is NOT critical to keeping the business going, is not a safety or compliance issue, therefore is something that can be figured out later on. In other words, it's very low priority.
I can see this. Well you paid the internet bill but you won't pay me the money they owe for the cell phone service? You won't pay me for their adobe acrobat subscription, you won't pay me to mow the lawn... the list goes on. Every penny in and out has to be very tightly controlled because if not, further down the line, it can cause legal problems concerning ALL parties who may be owed money. ie. you paid them but not me?? Im suing!!
Even though it's probably a pretty trivial amount, they can NOT pay it, because ... well why them and not ME?? Favoritism??? When people are about to lose money in a settlement of any sorts, they can get very pissy about making sure they get every penny that is owed to them. Legally, they MUST be this way in a corporation setting, otherwise there could be legal charges of the CEO not doing their fiduciary duties. Ive been down this road as a debtor on a company that went tits up, and trust me, the lawyers look for ANYthing they can to glom a penny here and there. It's probably a case of, not that they didn't want to pay the bill, or were not able to pay the bill, but were told they are not allowed, to pay the bill. Rules of incorporation AND bankruptcy force people to act this way to protect their 'product' and it's current value. It's literally, the law.
Let's hope this next round is a positive one and this shit settles and we all get back to riding our bikes and R and D come back, and Racing comes back, and new models come back, and and and..
Aaron.
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If it helps, I found this: https://www.energica.lv/
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Energica Latvia must still be in business! :)
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Really have my fingers crossed on this one. 4mm Euros is chump change for an operation of this scale, so any hesitation must have more to do with the liabilities than the purchase price. If Energica goes down, it will set e-motos back by at least 5 years, IMO.
What you need to understand is that Energica can't be flipped in six months and isn't a purely virtual offering promising a free money fountain with some buzzwords. Investors have been captured by bullshit and are no longer capable of spotting a scam and the money simply does not exist for real products anymore.
It doesn't cost 4 million to rescue Energica, it'll be closer to 50 to survive (keep the company going to build enough Experias to break even) and 100 to thrive (develop new products). That's still small beans but 100 million for a ten year RoI in a market full of very loud antis is poison.
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Really have my fingers crossed on this one. 4mm Euros is chump change for an operation of this scale, so any hesitation must have more to do with the liabilities than the purchase price. If Energica goes down, it will set e-motos back by at least 5 years, IMO.
What you need to understand is that Energica can't be flipped in six months and isn't a purely virtual offering promising a free money fountain with some buzzwords. Investors have been captured by bullshit and are no longer capable of spotting a scam and the money simply does not exist for real products anymore.
It doesn't cost 4 million to rescue Energica, it'll be closer to 50 to survive (keep the company going to build enough Experias to break even) and 100 to thrive (develop new products). That's still small beans but 100 million for a ten year RoI in a market full of very loud antis is poison.
Very good point. Investors are looking for a path to accelerated sales growth, and a path to profitability (or exit) , and that is a serious challenging case to make considering normal ROI needs.
Would take an investor with money to burn, who is driven by passion for the product more than the ROI.
They do exist. Many investors buy losing propositions in terms of ROI for intagible returns.
Could still happen.
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I live in the SF Bay Area and all I ever hear about is investors looking to dump their money into AI startups. I have no doubt that investing in electric motorcycles is at the very bottom of their list of things to do. :(
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Site is back up.
Sort of.
https://www.energicamotor.com/
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Site is back up.
Sort of.
https://www.energicamotor.com/
Well more or less "nice" that they now gave an update from their site on the auction....! Let's hope for the best!
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What you need to understand is that Energica can't be flipped in six months and isn't a purely virtual offering promising a free money fountain with some buzzwords. Investors have been captured by bullshit and are no longer capable of spotting a scam and the money simply does not exist for real products anymore.
It doesn't cost 4 million to rescue Energica, it'll be closer to 50 to survive (keep the company going to build enough Experias to break even) and 100 to thrive (develop new products). That's still small beans but 100 million for a ten year RoI in a market full of very loud antis is poison.
That’s about what I would have expected. So if you figure there might be 100 deep-pocketed Energica owners who are able and willing to pitch in a la Fisker’s owners, and $50mm to at least stabilize the operation, that’s 500 grand each. Deep pockets or no, people are going to need to see momentum and a firm business plan to invest that kind of cash. Now, if the Italian government, existing investors or management, and other interests kick in, it might start to seem a lot more achievable. Idle speculation: I wonder if Jordan Peele would be interested. He loved his SS9 so much, he made it a character in the movie Nope.
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Jay Leno has a few as well in his garage, but seriously, to succeed they will have to earn their way, not mooch off celebs.
Also don't forget, you mention the money needed to keep it going over the years but also, there will be money coming in from product as well as they sell their bikes, it's not just investor infusion that will be fueling them.
Moving out of Ca would probably save them a ton of cash as well, that state is the least business friendly one in the nation with taxes and general gimme dat when it comes to business'. Ca offered incentives to 'go green' business there but when it came time to fund that promise, it's being stalled again and again in their congress.
Earning cash is critical, so is spending less, and spending what you do, wisely.
One thing that has always surprised me is, their lack of advertisement in the USA. While I can understand it to an extent, they want quality leads, and word of mouth etc, without people knowing about it, it's really hard to sell a product. Every time I go to the track, there's always a number of people who are like wow, never heard of them before. That's sad really, especially when you look at what the bike can do.
Aaron
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No startup OEM is cash positive for 15-20 years, so if that’s the criteria for a rescue, then there’s no reason to hope for good news. We might as well just start wondering when Zero will adopt CCS or when Ducati will bring their 21L technology to production.
I know CA is not the easiest place to do business, but South SF is basically 4 people in a garage. Most of the US sales are within driving distance of that office, which simplifies everything from troubleshooting oddball issues to dealer support. I find it hard to imagine that moving somewhere else would make sense, no matter how low the tax rate or how much less byzantine the regulatory framework.
I honestly don’t think Energica needs to make any sweeping changes. Sure, they’re probably not going to turn a profit any time soon, but neither did Tesla from 2004 to 2019. They have a halo brand (even if it’s not yet a household name), they have some of the highest expertise in lightweight, high performance electric power in the world, and they have a strong order book. I know times are lean, but how is that not worth $50-100 million to someone?
Look, I’m not saying I necessarily expect the rescue to happen, I’m just saying that it’s a small investment to protect a pool of expertise that would be very expensive and uncertain to recreate later. If it doesn’t happen, it will be a waste of resources and a shame.
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Just saw that MV Agusta separated themselves again from KTM with a Russian oligarch‘s family now holding the majority again.
Here‘s an interesting interview with one of the guys, it’s rumored that they poured nearly 100 million Euros into MV.
https://www.motorcycle.com/features/mv-agusta-owner-timur-sardarov-interview.html
Shouldn’t someone from Energica call them an politely ask for a bid? 😅
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Or better yet, BMW are rumoured to be sniffing around KTM. If they have KTM kind of cash lying around, maybe they could make a side bet on energica? Anyone got Markus Flasch's phone number?
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Wish HD would buy Energica. Corner the market on cutting edge electric motorcycles worldwide.
100K for a street legal race bagger? Why not expand the elctric line?
https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-reviews/harley-davidson-cvo-road-glide-rr-first-ride/
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Wish HD would buy Energica. Corner the market on cutting edge electric motorcycles worldwide.
HD did buy the beloved Alta and then killed it. That was very sad. But maybe the Energica motorcycles are much closer to their core market than Alta was, and the customer base would be large enough to actually make money.
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HD wouldn't touch energica, they already have their livewire business and it is losing money at a prodigious rate. It's easy to understand why, I went to a Harley dealer and they had no interest in selling livewires. The one they had was hidden in a corner behind a pile of leaking second hand cruisers. My enduring impression of a Harley dealership was the smell of burnt oil and unburnt fuel.
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Harleys are bling and garbage. They are designed to break. Well you better Plan on a valve job at 20k a top end overhaul at 30k, this at 40k, that at 20k etc etc. not to mention well this is the base mode, if you want more power, you have to add this package. oh but the lower end won't handle it, so you better aftermarket have them beef up the rings and this and that too or it'll fly apart and leak even more oil all over everything. This is a lot by design too, kind of a, well let's sell it to them, then keep getting their money trying to keep it running properly.
Harley owners go in knowing they will have to rebuild the cludge and overhaul it time and time again, and are happy with that.. umm ok.
Buy a Triumph as an example, take care of it and it'll last 200k miles, no engine rebuilds, or overhauls needed every 40k! WTF, Harley.
Just because you pay a ton for it does not mean it's quality stuff.
Energica's are more in line with Ducatti and the likes, premium quality performance, not just shiny objects to get the simpletons attention.
I don't see the worldviews being compatible TBH. It's a different class of people, not saying caste, just type of people. Harley can barely keep their own company running in a profit, they wouldn't do much better with Energica im afraid.
Aaron
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Good points.
True, livewire is not doing well, but they are still in business, while Energica is not. I expect they are watching the auction closely, because if somone would buy Energica and have the funds to keep it going, that would hurt LiveWire significantly in terms of future sales. LiveWire only benefits from a dead Energica.
They could buy it and shelf it just to get rid of the competition risk. Must not fear it being purchased by anyone.
I could live with a dumbed down energica with no rider aids at all and a simple throttle curve like a remote control toy.
Better than a dead bike. May have to go that route if all options for repair are exhausted.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1EW1qDdr5p/
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Let's see what happens come april when the auction is over. Hopefully this is the last round and they are bought by someone.
As I said before, even if the motorcycle part is sluggish, the tech on the motor and the control of it, THAT is money right there.
Put it on heavy machinery, a fork lift as an example, Maybe little tow motors to haul planes around, I know a guy at the track I talk to, who is in the aero industry working on a battery powered plane, guess what one of their prototypes is using as a motor? Boats, Barges, Imagine a tug boat with nothing but motors and batteries, and a massive prop to produce HUGE propulsion, that thing could push a bridge across the river let alone a boat!! With the instant torque of electric, it'd be very good at what it does. Just a few examples of the potential for any owner who does end up with the tech. They wouldn't have to push it as a 'green' thing either, and have to listen to the but you need diesel to recharge it nonsense, push it as a power .vs. instant torque safety thing, you get winds picking up or a line breaks and that boat starts drifting into danger, we got INSTANT massive power to grab it and control it type thing. There would be a hell of a lot less maintenance on it too. If for some reason id did catastrophically fail, let it burn, it sinks, fire gone. House the batteries in a steel case or something so you just crane the mess to shore and dispose of it. Just thinking out loud.
aaron
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HD wouldn't touch energica, they already have their livewire business and it is losing money at a prodigious rate. It's easy to understand why, I went to a Harley dealer and they had no interest in selling livewires. The one they had was hidden in a corner behind a pile of leaking second hand cruisers. My enduring impression of a Harley dealership was the smell of burnt oil and unburnt fuel.
That is just what H-D dealers used to do with Buell models. >:(
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Wish HD would buy Energica. Corner the market on cutting edge electric motorcycles worldwide.
HD did buy the beloved Alta and then killed it. That was very sad. But maybe the Energica motorcycles are much closer to their core market than Alta was, and the customer base would be large enough to actually make money.
And that is what Polaris did with Brammo. They bought it and then a couple of years later, killed it. Electric motorcycles are just not seen as good investments for the major manufacturers. Also, don't hold your breath until BMW shows up with a real highway-legal electric motorcycle. Toss in the current world economy, add in a potential trade war this year, and the future of the electric motorcycle industry is not looking bright. :(
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Piaggio just posted record profit margins, maybe they could scratch around under the couch and help a fellow Italian out.
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I'm not sure LW benefits from a dead Energica... I think at this stage of the development of the EV motorcycle market, it needs more entrants, more development, more choice, and more exposure to consumers. The more bikes and manufacturers are out there making decent products the more normalised it will get. And hopefully the fiercer the competition. I think one reason Zero are so incredibly slow at development is that there really isn't anything competing with them in their market segments still.
Cas :)
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The trade war might not be as bad as you think. Remember, they are going to have an Energica USA. If the bike is final assembly in the USA, it might qualify as US built, be eligible for whatever incentives might still be around AND still avoid the tarriffs to a large extend because it's built in usa.
Not going to get into the logistics of the work arounds, which everyone already KNOWS and uses to this tarriff but they could easily send over a 'some assembly required' finish it here and it's an energica USA bike. NOT having tarriffs on it, would by comparison make it more price compatible with a bike that is say.... built entirely in the phillippines.
Not sure how long the tarriffs will last, but with that, they COULD last forever, because think about it, a tarriff is a TAX... and the government keeps the money from TAX, and in this case, the government can blame the OTHER GUY for the tax, instead of it's self. It's THEIR fault there's a tax so the outrage is NOT at the govt for taking which at the end, is YOUR money.
Time will tell.
Aaron
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Did any of you happen to calculate how much you can ride your Energica for the cost of single gallon of gasoline? It turns out that these bikes are crazy efficient where even a 50 CC moped seems like a gas guzzler. On the street for the price of a single gallon (California) I could buy enough electricity to ride 450 to 500 miles. Let that sink in, ONE gallon. I get about 90 Wh per mile (street) normal riding with 0.11 cents per KWH electric cost and from then on you can do the rest of calcualtions.
Regular people can't even imagine how incredible these machines are and how much they are actually worth in the long run and I haven't even mentioned maintenance cost as compared to any other premium Italian brand.....
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I did indeed do the calculations, and it would have needed close to 160,000km for the energica to pay off over a something like a tracer 9 gt. Full power electric bikes do not make straight up financial sense because the purchase price is over double a similarly specced petrol.
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Now factor in the cost of valve adjustments, oil/filter, air filters, clutch replacement, fuel filters and spark plug replacements. In this respect, Zero is more efficient as everything is passively air-cooled whereas Energica does require some oil changes as the motor and battery are liquid cooled...
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The battery is not liquid cooled.
The motor also is not liquid cooled. (EMCE might be)
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The oil changes on an energica are minimal, like a few ounces .vs. 5 quarts or 8 quarts for a bigger truck as an example.
The fluid for the inverter / motor is umm a pint maybe? You don't really have to change it either, just top it off IMO, unlike an ICE it's not picking up combustion materials or chemicals from the water used. Being a closed system your losses should be next to zero, as there are no overflow buckets to seep it out of etc etc.
My use, ehh, i can use from 100 to 230 watts per mile depending if I am on highway, which if ofter and how long, sometimes 20 to 30 miles one way daily. Still, the price over gas and when you get stuck in a traffic jam not having a bike's radiator just pouring heat into you, is wonderful.
when calculating your electric price, don't forget, they ALL add taxes and stuff on it, base costs, this and that tax, fee, levy, entitlement ... whatever they want to call it. just divide your final bill by the kw you used to get a more real price per kw number. now do that for a year and then average it out to get an overall average REAL price per kw hour. I guarantee it's NOT the 8c kw/hr 11c/kwhr they claim it is.
Aaron
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For the most of us the bike is a hobby. So in my view calculating the cost is a bit like calculating how cost efficient your spouse/partner/kids/pets are 8)
As with all statistics, I can always draw up numbers that tell me what I want to hear.
That already starts with the ICE bike I am comparing my Ribelle to. I can use a Streetfighter V4 for 30000 or a Speed Triple RS for 18000 bucks.
Compared to a four wheeled EV (usually some brick-design SUV) my Ribelle uses only half of the kWh/km those consume. Hey look, I am a tree hugger ;D
BTW, from MY22 on, motor (EMCE) and inverter are liquid-cooled.
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For me, riding is a work horse (one reason I have a Zero rather than Energica, it's a bit lower maintenance). If I ride that Zero into the ground, over 10 years and 50,000 miles, it will have cost me ~60p / mile (77c / mile), factoring in tyres, insurance, servicing, belts, tax, electricity, and the odd bit of protective clothing (which doesn't last forever and costs a fortune). Or to put it another way, £30,000.
What is interesting is that when I use the same calculations for my Ionic 5, but doing about twice the mileage (100k miles which is accurate for my use), it costs 66p/mile. A mere 10% difference!!
Intrigued I also put the figures in for my wife's hybrid RAV4 ... also 66p/mile, despite the fact it uses petrol. And I have to point out this is based on my EVs being charged at home at the special off-peak electricity rate every night (8p/kWh).
I don't think fuel costs are really a thing that sells EVs... the difference in cost of the actual fuel is wiped out by other rather larger factors.
Cas :)
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My Experia is my workhorse. It does all my commuting and traveling. I have 26,000 miles on it so far.
It replaced my KTM1190 Adv so I have a solid maintenance schedule to compare the two.
Considering I paid 10,000 for the KTM in 2018 (I was the second owner) as the baseline for the purchase price for the comparison. If I had kept the KTM on stead of getting the Experia in July 2023, it would take 7 years for the two decisions to reach cost parity. Including the regular maintenance schedule of each with approximately 1000 miles per month of usage.
I initially put a lot more miles on the Experia when I first got it, trying to get a Saddle Sore 1000, but now the useage has settled into a routine.
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The battery is not liquid cooled.
The motor also is not liquid cooled. (EMCE might be)
Well, technically both EMCE and Pre-EMCE Motors are liquid cooled.
Pre-EMCE is cooled by Oil, EMCE is implemented into the normal Inverter cooling system.
I have Pre-EMCE, so oil change every 10k km.
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Ah yes, you are correct.
The oil of the pre-EMCE motor is only circulated through the motor and never to any radiator, so I didn't really count that (even though it's an important design feature).
I read somewhere that on early bikes (might only have been the race bikes) the oil was actually cooled by a radiator (or indirectly with a heat exchanger to the water loop, idk). But they found that's not even needed so it was made into a closed system.
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Regarding the Energica auction. The trustee posted on the Portale delle Vendite Publiche website - translation to English - "No offers received by the deadline of 03/19/2025, 4:00 p.m., as required by the competitive tender notice." What happens next?
https://pvp.giustizia.it/pvp/it/detail_annuncio.page?idAnnuncio=4334419&fbclid=IwY2xjawJJXzJleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHROsZ7bx99WC2Kcccl-l8E6uJUNFcP6KgJbLWWUPi3en8mPDZ9vcU6Ngng_aem_zcuLiSonf8i13YOkWrsc1A
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Next, the liquidator will again lower the asking price & the next round begins. Purpose of the liquidation is to sell the inventory & IP to the highest bidder - and with the cash this will generate the liquidator will satisfy the creditors best possible. :-\
If that 3rd round is again not successful, there will be another round. And another… until cash is being created to satisfy the creditors best possible. It is also possible that the liquidator will switch to a different selling model and sells Energica not as a whole lot but in pieces.
We shall see in the days and weeks to come…
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It can't go on forever, sooner or later they have to either get an owner or call it quits.
Even if someone does pick it up for an absolute steal of a deal, if they don't have the money to 'fix it' and keep it going into the future, ... and these next 2 to 3 years are going to be very bumpy restarting it, it's just kicking the can down the road.
It's probably going to take 20 million to get it really going well again. Restarting everything, new contracts, getting new inventory, selling bikes. YES there is a nice long list of people still waiting for bikes, but once that is filled, then what? YES there are other 'sub entities', the motor has many other uses, and there is some other tech and proprietary stuff I won't mention here, they could license out elsewhere to help them along.
It was mentioned before, what if the customer base pooled together to buy the company?
I would like to see, rock bottom, what is the absolute bare minimum it takes a month to run the place, payroll, electric, rent, etc etc. Can they churn out product fast enough to keep that going.
on a bright side, there ARE bikes out there that been shall we say 'in need' for a while now, so when they do re open there will be a bit of a flash influx from dealers doing repairs, annuals, and stuff like that. They might have to schlep a bit on warranty stuff, which while regrettable, would not be uncommon, but it could be enough to jump start them until they are ramped with bikes again.
The experia is a nice bike and I do see a lot of potential for it, if they can bring the price down a tad. Maybe if they could sell directly that'd save a lot on dealer markup, but then comes the, well what when something energica specific fucks up? They'd need some sort of remote tech or deals somehow to do Energica Only work. I can't see too many dealers saying, oh we'll fix bikes for them, we just won't sell them. Im assuming it's a bit of an investment on the dealers end to learn all the stuff and the initial outlay for some specialty equip, the programmer etc etc.
Most stuff a regular dealer can fix. the guy who works on my bike is a race bike shop, and unless it's like a programming thing, Eric can handle it.
maybe if Energica also put a kind of referral program, if you refer someone and they buy a bike you get a 500 dollar or 1000 dollar credit on energica stuff, can be used towards a new bike, equipment for yours, maintenance or repairs to yours, or eventual upgrade.
there are things they could do to cut costs a bit, and help out in the short term, just need to find an owner with a bit of cash to keep them going for a bit longer.
Dear god... I know ive been a prick all my life, but for once, do me a big one, let me win ehh....30 million in a lottery. 10 goes to taxes and the rest of the 20 i can buy the company and get us going solid finally.....
It's worth a shot
Aaron
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They could bring Experia's price down by building a couple thousand units in one go to exploit economy of scale. The new owner might also take the view that many of the fixed costs basicly contribute 0 to the costs in restarted pricing given that someone else took the hit on it. That's kind of a one-time deal for that bike and not a sustainable practice though and they might also decide that whatever their purchase cost for the company would have to become the fixed cost in the R&D costs stead.
Also I think you're lowballing it at 30 million.
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but thats the problem stonewolf, thats what they want to do and they already have orders for lots of them but can't get the parts because the orig owner would not pay the bills and the suppliers said no more!!
that's the aggrivating thing they HAD a solid business plan and it was working, they got shafted by some con artists.
lowballing at 30 million. can you please explain why? this is not a shot at you just genuinely interested in your perception. Remember there will be other revenue coming in as well during this build up time it's not just a dead drop of cash.... hopefully
aaron
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The last figure we had for how much funding it needed per year was €12 million so you need to assume you've gotta have €12m times the number of years it's gonna take to break even. The CEO has also said you'd need to make 2000 Experias to "break even" and while I'm not sure if she meant per year or in amortisation terms let's assume you're gonna use your big cash to just up front purchase materials for 2000 Experias to get that sweet economy of scale and manufacture them at 500-1000 per annum, if it costs you €20000 to make one then it costs you €40m to make 2000, a bunch of which is helpfully gonna be cut out of your €12m per annum but then you need to assume you're gonna pull in equivalent sales numbers to justify that production volume. Add in all the other costs of running a company, warehousing all those parts and materials, and bootstrapping the company back up out of the dirt and I think you're conservatively looking at €50m. And that's just to keep the company alive long enough to break even.
The fact that you're getting money back in as bikes go out the door is great but you don't get to rely on it because you cannot sit still, you need to build 2000 more Experias after that *and* design a new bike, *and* build that new bike at scale ...
So I reckon to keep the company alive you probably need to give it 50 million Euro up front so it has the security of being able to just do what it needs to do and then on top of that if you want it to really thrive you've probably gotta give it another €50m to get those new projects off the ground asap so that it doesn't get left behind by potential competitors, avoid reputational damage by supporting existing clients, keep building Ego platform, etc...
All of this is pretty back of the envelope stuff without access to the real numbers, maybe 20 or 30 million is enough to scrape the company back together and get some bikes out the door but there's a gulf between that and actually succeeding in making the business sustainable.
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The likely problem with potential investors in Energica is their feeling about the potential market for electric motorcycles right now. My thought is that it is not very good at this time.
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I'm hoping that Energica USA is recognized in the liquidation process and gets dibs on spare parts and IP for the effort to sustain service and parts replacement for bikes already manufactured...it's the logical entity to do this....talking worldwide support...low overhead w/ pride to keep it alive and future proof something good.
The IP doesn't support new sales IMO unless one lives in a particular Italian valley...then the technology moves too fast to recognize ROI...Energica owners collectively should petition the court and encourage it to do the obvious.
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stonewolf another thing to add to that list. people are going to wreck bikes, break things, wear out things, so they are also going to have to maintain that marketplace as well in the spare parts / rebuild-repair side as well.
one of the biggest issues I believe also will be, they've been in business what 10 years now? making new models all along the way, that means every year or so, shit changes so it's not just one closet of bike parts, they are going to have to have parts for ALL those years back, and then the fun fun fun of making all that shit talk and play nice with each other. There's a tribal knowledge there as well, that if they bust it up, could be a significant issue as well meaning people have to learn / relearn how to make all these different parts from all these different years and revisions, all work with each other. The current team has been there from the beginning, they see a problem and go oh yeah, I know what that is, here, do this, and kick that. If some of those people are forced out, there goes that knowledge. Now the remaining people without that first hand experience will have to figure things out all over again. Ive seen it countless times in the past.
aaron
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Yup, that's what I meant by avoiding reputational damage by supporting existing customers. It's not just fulfilling orders, it's making sure there's a parts supply chain for older bikes so you don't give people the impression they're on their own if they buy something from you. My bike's been bricked since about the same time the company went bust so it's an issue I'm keenly aware of.