ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: most on October 15, 2024, 01:12:59 PM
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https://www.notiziecarpi.it/2024/10/14/energica-motor-company-verso-falllimento-45-dipendenti-tutelare/
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absolutely :'(
looks like we now own extremely expensive furniture...
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ugh
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Looks like game over for Energica. Fuck Ideanomics and that cocksucker Alf Poor.
What does the future hold for us now? I guess we will not have any parts or support, and since the software is proprietary, no way to diagnose or fix things?
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https://temponews.it/2024/10/15/energica-motor-company-di-soliera-aperto-il-fallimento/
IDK how the Italian laws operate. Here in Germany you can declare insolvency to get a first protection from creditors to be able to maybe get the company on track again.
So maybe it is not completey over RN.
The mechanical spare parts can be got on the free market. Only of the rear brake disc I don't know the Brembo spare part number yet.
But if the bike needs any electronic components, then we're fucked.
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Maybe a manufacturer like Piaggio purchases the remaining (proprietary) hard- and software out of the bankruptcy estate. This way, some parts may be available at least for a limited time to come.
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Why is Zero able to make a profit but Energica not? What did Energica do wong?
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Well, just look at the differences between Zero and Energica's products and therein lies the answer.
Cas :)
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Why is Zero able to make a profit but Energica not? What did Energica do wong?
Do we know that Zero is making a profit?
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Why is Zero able to make a profit but Energica not? What did Energica do wong?
Scale
Bad news for me, my bike has a fault and needs a part!
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Yeah, I just got my Experia back for a warranty repair a few days ago. I feel like I kind of dodged a bullet.
As for the future, I'm going to ride it till it breaks and then try to fix it and ride some more. It's a sunk cost so I'm going to get the most I can out of it.
There's a budding network of owners that will help support each other. Lobbying with Energica to release any source code to allow us to clear our own faults, and establishing a database of common parts with other models to keep us in turn signals, wheel bearings, and brake discs, etc...
Energica of New England will probably find a niche with Energica like they have with Motus (the premium American longitudinal V4 Sport Tourer) Supporting a long gone name plate. It's not a total shit sandwich yet.
Yet.
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Ouch - I should've sold my Eva Ribelle for 10K when someone offered it to me lol
Here's hoping someone with resources comes in to save them.
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Why is Zero able to make a profit but Energica not? What did Energica do wong?
Scale
Bad news for me, my bike has a fault and needs a part!
As far as I know, Zero had or still has a deep-pocketed long-term backer who was willing to soak up big losses for a long time to get it going, and unless something has changed I believe they’re still a long way from breaking even.
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Yeah, I just got my Experia back for a warranty repair a few days ago. I feel like I kind of dodged a bullet.
As for the future, I'm going to ride it till it breaks and then try to fix it and ride some more. It's a sunk cost so I'm going to get the most I can out of it.
There's a budding network of owners that will help support each other. Lobbying with Energica to release any source code to allow us to clear our own faults, and establishing a database of common parts with other models to keep us in turn signals, wheel bearings, and brake discs, etc...
Energica of New England will probably find a niche with Energica like they have with Motus (the premium American longitudinal V4 Sport Tourer) Supporting a long gone name plate. It's not a total shit sandwich yet.
Yet.
Agreed. EONE might be able to carve quite a niche for themselves among the several-thousand owners. I don’t know how much cash they have lying around, but if they can acquire the remaining stock of spare parts at liquidation prices and collect some know-how on software workarounds, they can become the one-stop shop for Energica owners worldwide. I might even be in the market for an Experia or EMCE SS9 in the next couple of years if used prices come down and there’s still strong unofficial support.
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It‘s funny and sad how stuff happens. I specifically did not buy a cheap Chinese make, because my dealer warned me about the Service Situation.
Now Modena is only a few Hours from here and its the Situation i wanted to avoid.
My Experia just came back from Service and got the latest Software. Lets hope she will just Roll for years to come.
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I have a 23 Ribelle RS with 600 miles if anyone wants to buy
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Anyone tried reaching out to Energica US to see if anyone answers the phone?
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https://temponews.it/2024/10/15/energica-motor-company-di-soliera-aperto-il-fallimento/
IDK how the Italian laws operate. Here in Germany you can declare insolvency to get a first protection from creditors to be able to maybe get the company on track again.
So maybe it is not completey over RN.
The mechanical spare parts can be got on the free market. Only of the rear brake disc I don't know the Brembo spare part number yet.
But if the bike needs any electronic components, then we're fucked.
Hi,
looks like the shop will be liquidated. Manufacturing facilities, patents, and intellectual property will be sold to pay at least the outstanding employees salaries and taxes.
See (in german) https://www.motorradonline.de/ratgeber/energica-insolvenz-und-liquidation-ende-elektro-pionier/
Would not expect that anything will survive, and i doubt that they have large stock of spare parts someone could buy and build a parts service on the legacy.
Agree that mechanical stuff can be repaired or replaced somehow with others parts, and many standard components seem to be used by other ICE bikes.
There may be some larger dealers with a decent customer base who'll try to keep some small level of service running, e.g. to flash latest firmware again to reset electronic errors, but if something dies in battery or electronics noone will be able to replace and we're fu****.
Let's keep the community running and try to support us with knowledge sharing on solutions where possible.
Greetings from Munich, Jens
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As for the future, I'm going to ride it till it breaks and then try to fix it and ride some more. It's a sunk cost so I'm going to get the most I can out of it.
Yeah, I was only looking to sell mine because I'm nearly as broke as Energica at this point but now I'm going to keep it, keep it going as long as I can, and probably have a go at a battery rebuild in a few years time.
I reached out to EEMC (UK Distributers) to commiserate and they said they'll be in touch with their customers once they have a clearer idea what's going on.
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In the news today it was reported that pre-owned EV vehicle sale prices have tanked due to dealers having too large of an inventory for the market and because Tesla and other manufactures have cut their new vehicle prices recently. Tesla was said to have cut their new model prices by one-third since 2022, driving down used vehicle sale prices. I wouldn't even want to think how much a used electric motorcycle is worth now, compared to its original price. Unless you get really lucky to find a buyer for your bike, it seems like the best you can do is to keep riding your Energica and hope nothing goes wrong with its battery, power train and other special parts that are not available in the aftermarket. What a sad situation.
It is really too bad that a big ICE manufacturer didn't swoop in and pick up Energica. I would have saved them a lot of money and effort when they finally eventually get around to making their own electric motorcycle.
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It’s definitely sad. I don’t see anyone else equaling the Experia (or even trying in that segment) for several years, especially if we’re indeed in a broader recession with less investment in R&D for the next couple of years. As I’ve pointed out in other threads, I think the industry is just in an awkward place for e-moto research. The companies who are interested are already running their own electric prototype programs or testing the waters with electric bikes, and the ones that aren’t, well, aren’t.
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It’s definitely sad. I don’t see anyone else equaling the Experia (or even trying in that segment) for several years, especially if we’re indeed in a broader recession with less investment in R&D for the next couple of years. As I’ve pointed out in other threads, I think the industry is just in an awkward place for e-moto research. The companies who are interested are already running their own electric prototype programs or testing the waters with electric bikes, and the ones that aren’t, well, aren’t.
I was thinking the same thing. The R&D is lacking with anyone but Zero who hasn't developed into CCS yet. I'm really sad about the whole thing and I want to see if there's any way I could get the usb harness, the diagnostic software, and the full service manuals as they don't have anything they need to really keep secret any more for competitive reasons.
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I always hoped, Ducati would buy Energica, but they are daddling in e-moto on their own and honestly I do not think we will see an E-Duc somewhere in the near future.
KTM would have been an excellent option as well, they bought several smaller manufacturers over the last years and by aquiring Energica they would instantly have access to working (!) EV know-how.
In my view it is obvious that Energica has no spare parts on stock somewhere. Since months the dealers had to pay upfront when placing an order and we know from folk in this forum that customers had to wait for months until delivery.
So, if some control unit like VCU, CM or else goes up in smoke, the bike is a brick. Or in case of a crash. Only solution would be to buy a working bike and slaughter it for the spare parts.
Here in Germany, an astounding number of used Energicas are now on offer. It seems, quite a large number of owners try to get rid of them.
As the situation currently is, I plan to ride my Ribelle as long as possible and then either quit riding or go fossil.
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Perhaps one should not ignore the chance of the Chinese / Indian manufacturers to buy Energica. It would be an opportunity for them to have real motorcycles in their portfolio alongside small scooters and e-bikes in one fell swoop and they now have the know-how...
For me it is like jotjotde says, drive until you can't drive any more. Unfortunately, from now on I have a bad feeling that if you break down you need to take it home and not to a dealer for repair, that woult it be for me with the hobby of motorcycling...
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Where do you See an astounding number?
I checked yesterday and found only the usual 10-20 offers.
I always hoped, Ducati would buy Energica, but they are daddling in e-moto on their own and honestly I do not think we will see an E-Duc somewhere in the near future.
KTM would have been an excellent option as well, they bought several smaller manufacturers over the last years and by aquiring Energica they would instantly have access to working (!) EV know-how.
In my view it is obvious that Energica has no spare parts on stock somewhere. Since months the dealers had to pay upfront when placing an order and we know from folk in this forum that customers had to wait for months until delivery.
So, if some control unit like VCU, CM or else goes up in smoke, the bike is a brick. Or in case of a crash. Only solution would be to buy a working bike and slaughter it for the spare parts.
Here in Germany, an astounding number of used Energicas are now on offer. It seems, quite a large number of owners try to get rid of them.
As the situation currently is, I plan to ride my Ribelle as long as possible and then either quit riding or go fossil.
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Where do you See an astounding number?
I checked yesterday and found only the usual 10-20 offers.
;D That number I do not regard as usual, considering that only 1 or 2 used bikes were on sale two years ago.
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Sorry, I meant only the usual 10-20 Energica offers from the different dealers, Not specifically for used ones.
For example atm there are 5 offers for Experias, all from dealers.
Lets see what happens to the market.
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The company isn't for sale, it's assets are. That'll be anything they have in the factory, supply contracts with still outstanding deliveries that are already paid for, the brand itself, patents, IP, etc ...
The company is done, it's gone, a revival of Energica would be more like Triumph. Triumph isn't Triumph, some guy bought the brand and IP and set up a fresh new company around it. This does mean that if someone with a real interest in making bikes were able to snap up enough of the liquidation we could see a revival via a whole new company without all the debts Energica will have racked up but there's a reason you don't see that happening all the time, it is *not* cheap to do.
As for releasing source code and stuff like that, sorry but that all falls under IP. Energica will have spend a lot of time working on that software, tweaking it, building up institutional knowledge of how electric motorbikes perform and what they need and that will all be baked into the software and described in their internal documentation. That stuff is probably the most valuable part of Energica since I expect you can't get it by just hiring in some car guys.
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The company isn't for sale, it's assets are. That'll be anything they have in the factory, supply contracts with still outstanding deliveries that are already paid for, the brand itself, patents, IP, etc ...
The company is done, it's gone, a revival of Energica would be more like Triumph. Triumph isn't Triumph, some guy bought the brand and IP and set up a fresh new company around it. This does mean that if someone with a real interest in making bikes were able to snap up enough of the liquidation we could see a revival via a whole new company without all the debts Energica will have racked up but there's a reason you don't see that happening all the time, it is *not* cheap to do.
As for releasing source code and stuff like that, sorry but that all falls under IP. Energica will have spend a lot of time working on that software, tweaking it, building up institutional knowledge of how electric motorbikes perform and what they need and that will all be baked into the software and described in their internal documentation. That stuff is probably the most valuable part of Energica since I expect you can't get it by just hiring in some car guys.
True. True.
Anyone with a bike can have any part reverse engineered (hacked) especially the software, if they were so inclined.
With the company gone, I would expect pirated software to emerge soon enough.
Reduced risk for the specialists when the company is no longer operational.
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It seems like Energica's designers and engineers should have opportunities for new employment if they don't mind relocating to other areas in the EU or maybe elsewhere.
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One of the reasons why other brands have not come up with EV bikes is related to image and brand identity. What Energia has established, is creating a positive, authentic image of a European EV motorcycle that is fast, good-looking, competitive and more or less accepted (or least mocked on) by OG bikers. That, together with their own EMCE Mavel motors is te best selling point for someone to keep the brand alive. Electronics, battery assembly, wiring harness is all common knowledge and can be consulted on. I really hope someone picks up the glove.
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In what may be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever done, I reached out to Stefano B. (US CEO) last night to see if there are any Experia’s available for purchase, and there are still ones in White & Black available stateside at a steep discount. I went for a white one.
I was waiting to see if there were any model updates at EICMA, but I guess not.
As a CE 04 owner who has suffered through the range anxiety of 1500mi trips with a small battery, I figure the Experia was my only shot at long distance touring with DC support for the next 2-3 years. Hopefully it will last that long without needing repairs.
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How steep are we talking?
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In what may be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever done, I reached out to Stefano B. (US CEO) last night to see if there are any Experia’s available for purchase, and there are still ones in White & Black available stateside at a steep discount. I went for a white one.
I was waiting to see if there were any model updates at EICMA, but I guess not.
As a CE 04 owner who has suffered through the range anxiety of 1500mi trips with a small battery, I figure the Experia was my only shot at long distance touring with DC support for the next 2-3 years. Hopefully it will last that long without needing repairs.
I applaud your courage! Should be fine. Overwhelmingly reliable machines.
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Just a curious thought for those people who have ordered and paid a deposit for a new bike but have not yet received them...what happens in this case..??
Also those of us who ordered and paid for center stands for our Experias but never received them...I suspect we've done our money.??
God help us, (on all of the Energica models), if one of the major components fails, motor, battery or one of the charge/motor controllers..?? What will happen in that case..??
If someone has an accident and needs replacement panels, parts etc...??
Smithy.
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Just a curious thought for those people who have ordered and paid a deposit for a new bike but have not yet received them...what happens in this case..??
Also those of us who ordered and paid for center stands for our Experias but never received them...I suspect we've done our money.??
Those people are now creditors of a company in liquidation. Usually, a court-nominated liquidator will try to sell the company's assets as best as possible and will distribute the money according to priority. First priority have the employees, they will get their outstanding salaries etc. After that is done, the liquidator's fees will be paid. The rest of the money (if there is any) will then given to the other creditors. Shareholders will come last.
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After thinking about it for the past two days now, I will
put up my Experia for sale, I will not Push it and desperately try to get rid of it. Rather I will keep riding it and see if someone is interested.
Luckily it was just fully serviced.
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not.
As a CE 04 owner who has suffered through the range anxiety of 1500mi trips with a small battery, I figure the Experia was my only shot at long distance touring with DC support for the next 2-3 years. Hopefully it will last that long without needing repairs.
My twin!
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Maybe a light at the end of the tunnel?
https://thepack.news/marchel-bulthuis-the-dutch-importer-of-energica-responds-to-the-current-situation/
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Maybe a light at the end of the tunnel?
https://thepack.news/marchel-bulthuis-the-dutch-importer-of-energica-responds-to-the-current-situation/
Unfortunately, he's wrong. Maybe Dutch bankruptcy is different enough that he got confused but here's the first sentence of Energica's official statement:
Energica Motor Company SpA, a manufacturer of high-performance electric motorcycles 75% controlled by the American fund Ideanomics Inc., announces that its Board of Directors meeting held on 14 October 2024 at 3:00 p.m. resolved to enter into a bankruptcy judicial liquidation pursuant to art. 121 et seq. of the insolvency law.
https://www.energicamotor.com/en/news/energica-press-release-14-october/
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Apparently in 2022 there was a change to the law putting a greater emphasis on Business continuation:
https://www.engage.hoganlovells.com/knowledgeservices/news/the-new-italian-insolvency-code-a-predicted-revolution
It’s very confusing since the term is still liquidation, but from my understanding liquidation (selling all Assets to Cover Debts) is indeed not the only possible procedure After this Change.
At least that is what I get from this part (refering to Art 121):
„ Beyond this, the idea behind the reform is to shift from a distress regulation system centred upon asset liquidation – a role held unchallenged for more than sixty years, and already partially mitigated with the 2005 and 2006 bankruptcy law reforms – by promoting crisis regulation procedures encouraging business continuation and recovery where feasible, and are based on an increased autonomy of the market players.“
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sound a bit more like the German system, where you have different possibilities...
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Ive reached out to them about financial support but have not heard a word about anything.
I have my bike in their shop, ... waiting to hear what it will cost to fix, and now I can't get anyone to answer any e mails about it.
Maybe the bankruptcy will allow them to wash their hands of the shit that happened, tighten shop quite a bit, and re emerge as a smaller, leaner company that has a fresh start.. somewhat and go from there.
Supposedly they had the deals pretty much signed for a shit ton of the experia's to be marketed. They HAD / HAVE to do something to get themselves away from ideanomics legally, so the cancer that it is, does not stay with them. Bankruptcy is the way to do that.
liquidate the old company, sell the assets to your wifes brother in law, and open up a new company, new start, doing the same ole thing. It's a common tactic in florida with contractors :(
This might not be the end of the world totally yet. This could be them just cleaning house, to GET the clean start. See,if we can start over from fresh, we KNOW how to market the bikes, we HAVE the orders, and we HAVE steady business with the bikes that are already out there!! BUT>>>>>>> If we have 20 million of debt strangling us because of ideanomics cuntfuckery we'll never be able toget out from under it and BE the company we need to.
How many times did big companies, GE, Chrysler, etc go tits up, and come out the otherside better off.
Maybe im being naieve but I want to think this is a new beginning possibly, not a horrible end. and YES of course I do, I got close to 100k invested in this shit already.
Why can't WE ALL who own these things, buy stock in the new company, and bring it up as an owner / investor thing. There are plenty of options here, they don't HAVE to have one huge investor, but have a bunch of smaller, float a bond. The most frustrating thing is not knowing a thing about whats going on, but if they ARE in bankruptcy trying to get out from the shit fuck, they can't talk, it's a poker game they are playing right now and they can't show their hand.
Lets hold out hope.
Aaron
Aaron
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How many times did big companies, GE, Chrysler, etc go tits up, and come out the otherside better off.
Maybe im being naieve ...........
Lets hold out hope.
Aaron
Aaron
fyi GE symbol is now GE aerospace. They spun off Wabteck in a manner stock holders got charded it in the income department. 8 to 1 reverse split. It kind of was broken up wasn't it? That is lately I don't think there was a before if there was another tits up episode it was way back. I don't think tits up is what happened unless that is what happens when you get kicked out of the dow 30.
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Their website is still alive <
https://www.energicamotor.com/us/
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because of ideanomics cuntfuckery
Aaron
I didn't know you knew how to speak aussie
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Ive reached out to them about financial support but have not heard a word about anything.
I have my bike in their shop, ... waiting to hear what it will cost to fix, and now I can't get anyone to answer any e mails about it.
Maybe the bankruptcy will allow them to wash their hands of the shit that happened, tighten shop quite a bit, and re emerge as a smaller, leaner company that has a fresh start.. somewhat and go from there.
Supposedly they had the deals pretty much signed for a shit ton of the experia's to be marketed. They HAD / HAVE to do something to get themselves away from ideanomics legally, so the cancer that it is, does not stay with them. Bankruptcy is the way to do that.
liquidate the old company, sell the assets to your wifes brother in law, and open up a new company, new start, doing the same ole thing. It's a common tactic in florida with contractors :(
This might not be the end of the world totally yet. This could be them just cleaning house, to GET the clean start. See,if we can start over from fresh, we KNOW how to market the bikes, we HAVE the orders, and we HAVE steady business with the bikes that are already out there!! BUT>>>>>>> If we have 20 million of debt strangling us because of ideanomics cuntfuckery we'll never be able toget out from under it and BE the company we need to.
How many times did big companies, GE, Chrysler, etc go tits up, and come out the otherside better off.
Maybe im being naieve but I want to think this is a new beginning possibly, not a horrible end. and YES of course I do, I got close to 100k invested in this shit already.
Why can't WE ALL who own these things, buy stock in the new company, and bring it up as an owner / investor thing. There are plenty of options here, they don't HAVE to have one huge investor, but have a bunch of smaller, float a bond. The most frustrating thing is not knowing a thing about whats going on, but if they ARE in bankruptcy trying to get out from the shit fuck, they can't talk, it's a poker game they are playing right now and they can't show their hand.
Lets hold out hope.
Aaron
Aaron
I’d love to see a group of owners get together and buy the IP from the liquidator, maybe even hire back most of the staff and keep the equipment going. I don’t know what it would take, but I’m guessing somewhere in the low tens of millions including funding development and expanding the manufacturing? I’m house-poor right now or I’d be interested in investing.
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This is a massive (but polite) fck you to ideanomics in the official Energica bankrupty press release
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I think it's pretty clear now that Ideanomics is the culprit, taking over the majority and then leaving Energica to fend for themselves without the promised capital infusion.
In the end, I understood, Energica had a full orderbook but no cash to continue.
Indeed it appears that the Italian insolvency law is now about the same as in Germany, i.e. a court-nominated lawyer will try to keep the business running by asking creditors to forego some of their money (haircut), trying to find an investor and even asking employees for salary cuts.
The bad news of course is, that an investor had not appeared the last two years and therefore this best case scenario is highly improbable. I never thought that I would hope, a Chinese company would take over an European one ::)
Liquidation and closure of business looks very likely. Someone will aquire the knowhow for small change without having to deal with a downbeaten company.
Between the lines I have understood that the employess have not been paid for some time, so hopefully they will get at least their owed money.
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There's a lot of lies and media bullshit going on, gee say i isn't so.
The company has not paid the employees but they have some sort of social security / unemployment thing that has taken over the payments, while it sucks, im sure just like US unemployment is a sorry joke, it's still a little something.
They also been throwing around Bankruptcy/ Liquidation / way too slack as well. What stil has NOT been made clear by anyone with the authority to say is. is this a. Screw you guys, im taking my toys and going home or.... There is no way forward with this idanomics cancer attached to s, we have to shed this skin, shed this boat anchor of a debt on our necks, and restart. Hopefully on their OWN, with an investor of course or 10,000 investors, there are many ways, but with THEM in control of their own destiny, not some scam company that spun up like solyndra, to rape the gree new deal type bullshit going on, and then riding off into the sunset with the cash.
They really can't , at this point forward tell you what their plan is either, A: they probably are not sure yet either, still in shock over this and B: as I said before it's a card game, so they have to keep their strategy a bit tight until judgement day.
I just wonder how I get my bike back from them now? They lock the doors up or what? Technically it's MY properrty already so Ill pay the shipping, slap a harness on it and lets go :D
Aaron
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There’s a conversation on the Electric Motorcycles Discord about putting together an owners group similar to the Fisker owners that bought the software rights to keep support going. Energica owners are relatively deep-pocketed and passionate, and at least a few thousand strong, exactly the profile of a group that might be successful at this type of thing. I’m sure Rob at Energica of New England would love to fab some parts and accessories if there was a group buy to ensure he would recoup his costs. We could even see things like corrected speedometers and top speed unlocks if an owners group could get the necessary software protocols open-sourced, or at least if there was no one to defend the IP from being cracked open.
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Well there's more to it than that.
Yes we can drool about being able to crack open the top end etc etc but what worries me is, all this shit is married to each other.
so your ECU goes out. ok.
so you find one on an aftermarket somewhere... ok
BUT it won't work because all the other parts talk to each other and are basically married to each other so if the esn / serial number don't match they won't work with it.
im more worried about when stuff DOES go bad, and even if there are parts available, without a programmer, and the key for their proprietary canbus comm protocal, call it a passcode, then the part does you little good.
heres another thing, they machined a LOT of the parts themselves in shop. while that's awesome and convenient, it's also more expense. Let's take the center stand that's been so elusive. such a simple fkn part and nobody seems to know how to get one? YOu mean to tell me that a machine shop ANYwhere can't slap a piece of fucking plate steel to a foot, drill a bolt hole and make a kickstand???
The italians have their pride and wanted everything to be first class and perfect, which is commendable, and it shows when you look at and ride the bike, but some of the stuff, that is NOT critical, like a kick stand or head light... etc can be outsourced. Hell they copied aprilla parts here, other peoples parts there, just get their stuff, put it on and keep YOUR stuff.
this IS doable and I can see the owners getting together to make something happen but if we do not get the software AND the programmers, it's not going to happen very easy at all.
Aaron
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All very true. Maybe it’s a little utopian, but I envision an owners group where monthly contributions can be used to make orders of parts like center stands from people like EoNE and members can buy necessary parts at cost from the club’s inventory when something goes wrong. If a programmer, engineer, or tinkerer is needed and the members vote on it, money from the war chest or a special assessment can be made to hire someone like Chris on a 6-month contract to make it happen. If you could get 500 owners to contribute $50 per month, I think it would be workable. Even 100 owners could make some of it happen.
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How steep are we talking?
Energica USA offered me a 40% discount, and it sounds like there are likely still more Experias available in black and white. I just e-mailed Stefano at the address mentioned in the latest Rider-E newsletter.
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which e mail would that be? there are a few listed on that letter, unless I missed it because I am getting a number of letters from Energica.
Thats not a bad discount.
Ilike the idea of hiring someone like chris but still, without the software, and from what I understand even they don't have it in the US. that's kept in Italy, so when they need to do something they have to communicate with the 'home' plant to get an unlock or software or the hardware to put it in over here or something. so unless we get the software and setups etc AND equipment, chris may not be very much help. Id LOVE if he could do that, but would he want to? Also, the logistics. ok where do we set him up at? then there's shipping the bikes back and forth, and he's probably going to need help, unless you fly him around the country where he spends a week here, a week there etc. That's a bit more than just hey chris you wanna do this?
As much as I hate to say this, lets give it a few weeks and hopefully we hear something definitive. We are re structuring, we are offering our intellectual rights up for sale, or they are being confiscated by our debitors...or whatever.
I know Ducatti been working on an electric bike, this could be a boon for them, all the hard work is done, they have a track proven motor AND bike, they could throw their frame around it and run with it, literally if they wanted. maybe buy thecode and tweak it a bit. or maybe buy the rights and offer toservice energica bikes at ducatti service centers.
I wonder how much it would cost me, to say I want the intel rights to the software, propriatery hardware, or a source for it, and a programmer. I have a few friends who own bike shops. If I could talk him into taking on Energica and being the one to work on their stuff?? I am sure Eone and New England would probably want to be part of it too. fuck, id dump a couple hundred into it if it was viable, of course itd have to go thru the accountant but.... not just piss because I spent all this money on their bikes but I honestly feel there IS a market for these, the biggest mistake I think they made is they never really markeded them in the US. I never seen commercials or anything and in fact stumbled on them kind of by accident TBH. I have some ties here, I could get contacts with a solar company, an electric company, the local news, city hall, we could possibly bring a home for them.
If we don't get into an all out nuclear war here in the next few months, I think this could be an entire new beginning for them, A fresh start that is the RIGHT start without being bought up by a shitbag who just needed an e / green name to bundle his scam together.
Aaron
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Maybe lightning can buy them out, that way he can actually have a bike that runs, has hit the public market and people are, quote, not afraid to ride because it's too fast ::)
Seriously though, when things DO start to go up for sale, Where does that happen, when, how etc. If we want to try to save this thing, or at least purchase the rights to the software and maybe the patent or something, mainly the software and a source for equipment, mainly the software and keys. where do we even begin to look for when the sale sign goes up?
IF we are going to do this, we need to be ready so when it does go up, we can hopefully get in there and get it before it gets killed.
Ducatti BMW etc may not be interested in any of it, because it's not 'theirs' the ego/snobbery thing BUT I could see them sure as shit snatch it up so they can kill it, never to show it's face again, so they don't have to worry about it being competition again in the future.
Maybe we should start a thread or something, a discord or something to get people together and see if we can get enough SERIOUS people together and come up with a plan so when it does come up, can we get it, who holds it, who handles the money, who owns it, bla bla. I can reah out to new england energica / AF1 racing and see if they have any plans or their thoughts on this. at least try to get some sort of ball rolling.
With luck, this is just the legal way of shedding Ideanomics and removing that cancerous wart from them, getting out from under the debt it racked up, and then coming back in fresh, and basically resuming where they left off, only with a clean slate this time and not trying to float in 20 mil of debt.
Id like to know where all this debt came from? They got their books full of orders, but no money to make the bikes. well shit, we could give them the money to put together say 50 bikes, sell them to these people, then turn right around pay the workers, buy the parts and flip another 55 and slowly get them back on their feet and self solvent again. Where did the money that WAS coming in from sales go to? did it go to the parent and never trickle down to the company to do this or what?
There will need to be some serious trimming of expenses possibly, or at least an honest adult or three in charge but the know how is there, the product is SOLID and PROVEN.
A full blown machine shop they have is expensive, the machinery alone can be 20 million dollars of assets. Maybe they sell off the machinery part, the lathes, the CNC,s stuff like that, that pays the debts, and then rent / lease machinery OR just sub out the jobs to other machine shops. The quality does not need to suffer, but it might save money in the short run since there is no 'designing' to be done, you already have the program, plug it in throw a billet in and let the machine do its thing. what im getting at is, they don't NEED to re invest in learning how to make this wheel again, or getting customers or learn how to ship, this that and all the other crap a NEW company would have to learn first time in. They already know this. This makes it very possible to get them back on their feet with experience already and a lot smaller of a budget. example CUT the r and d for a few years if need be, focus on making what you have, which is the ONLY real bike for the time being, focus on filling the orders for the experia, and for god sake focus on taking care of the customers you already have, because THOSE are the people who will keep you alive thru example and word of mouth to others.
I mean just the fact that they'd come out of a prett hard bankruptcy and then turn around and say one of our first priorities is taking care of out existing customers, would add a TON of street cred to them, and could potentially drive a lot of sales there way, especially with the proper marketing, which I can say for a FACT is something they NEVER EVER had in the USA. That had to hurt a TON right there!
Why can't they see that we are here for them we are willing and ready to help. But again, they have to clear this misfire in the breech before they can load up and take another shot, and that can be tricky.
More people need to be in prison for this shit, or better yet, give them cement boots. C'mon you are Itailian, go whack the fuckers who did this to you !!!
Aaron
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Fiirst off, sure hope Energica will rekindle in some way to sustain what they started, but timing is everything...for spares consideration.
Would love to get my hands on a bum 21.5kW battery module from the US service center and reverse engineer it to understand it before my bike needs attention.
The donor module can be fully operational or faulty in some way...doesn't matter.
How doe one participate in the asset liquidation by Energica USA?
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Musings ... wonder why Zero doesn't buy them out. Would save them having to develop all the liquid cooled high voltage tech and give them an instant 3 more models in the lineup.
Cas :)
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If Energica's assets are actually going to be liquidated to pay Ideanomics's debts in accordance with Italy's bankruptcy laws, I imagine that all decisions on what to do with their physical and intellectual assets would need to be decided by the court's official liquidator. I doubt he or she is going to look at anything but the bottom line to maximize the payout to all of the creditors.
Someone should start writing a book about Energica's development, production, sales and history before the best and most knowledgeable resources start fading away. Likely they would get a lot more of the scoop if they spoke Italian.
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Such terrible (but not unexpected) news. I'm just back from a wonderful and near flawless 800 mile ride. Maybe a new self help Thread in order, PostExperiaI. But that is what this forum has always been about, helping each other when no other help has been available. I'll be posting a cautionary tale shortly.
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Here is a long article regarding this subject published by Revzilla five days ago which just landed in my inbox earlier today: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/electric-motorcycle-manufacturer-energica-reported-on-the-verge-of-closure
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Interestingly, the German website is still active without any reference to the problems. However, if you look at the dealers, 14 are displayed, of which only 3 still have Energica on their homepage! The rest either Zero or no more electric motorcycles at all... I wonder if the dealers who now represent Zero had more information in advance...
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Fuck. My ss9+ has been bricked for over a month because of an "undefined error" pointing to the inverted. Can't even pull the logs myself to diagnose further because it's dealer only. Does anyone have an idea? I guess this is why energica hasn't been responding to anything...
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Anyone have a connection to Jay Leno? Roger Penske? I know Penske was a significant partner to the MAX BMW franchise.
This really sucks. The Experia got looks from everyone every time I charged up. People were fascinated with the bike, the looks, the capabilities, the story. What am I supposed to tell them now?
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Tell them it’s no a very rare motorcycle :)
Today I was also out and was asked while charging about the Experia.
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Tell them it’s no a very rare motorcycle :)
Experia has always been a rare motorcycle, I suspect there are less than 500 customer owned bikes world-wide.
Anybody have an idea as to the highest VIN..?? Mine is a "Launch Edition" and only #29, so quite an early one.
Smithy.
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Anybody have an idea as to the highest VIN..?? Mine is a "Launch Edition" and only #29, so quite an early one.
I just ordered mine from Energica and the VIN in the invoice ends with 306. Not sure if that number is how many they manufactured in 2024 or an all-time total.
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Anybody have an idea as to the highest VIN..?? Mine is a "Launch Edition" and only #29, so quite an early one.
I just ordered mine from Energica and the VIN in the invoice ends with 306. Not sure if that number is how many they manufactured in 2024 or an all-time total.
Will probably be an all time total...they have not changed since released, except a couple of colour/cosmetic changes. Mine was actually built in very late 2022...but I didn't actually pick it up from my dealer until 17th Feb 2023.
Smithy.
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Mine is also a Launch Edition, VIN ends on 113. I‘ve picked it up from a Dealer last year who used it for his show room.
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I sure would like to see some electric Guzzis and Aprilias. Perhaps Piaggio might take the opportunity here?
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From what I have been hearing from a lot of Aprilla dealers, they are having trouble getting parts shipped for them. I know a few in Florida finally said enough of this, were done with you and dropped their support for Aprilla. If aprilla is having these kinds of issues as well, I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of electric R and D out of them in the short term. Even if they bought Energica lock stock and barrel, they'd still have to tool up etc etc, that's a lot of buxxx. don't see an electric anytime soon TBH.
Aaron
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Experia has always been a rare motorcycle, I suspect there are less than 500 customer owned bikes world-wide.
Anybody have an idea as to the highest VIN..?? Mine is a "Launch Edition" and only #29, so quite an early one.
Smithy.
My for-sale Ribelle RS (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=13228.0) has a VIN ending in 621. Still accepting offers, thanks!
The NHTSA VIN Decoder (https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder/) reports that the VIN belongs to a 2023 model year bike, but is it likely that 620 other bikes were made just in 2023, or is that in total over all previous years? I wonder how many of those were fleet vehicles.
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2022 Ego RS VIN ends in the 130's. Just another Data point.
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You also have to remember, the USA is, for lack of a better word, kind of a second market, they sold a lot all over the world, each with their own unique vin numbers etc. Just because the US numbers may be a bit low does not mean they are not selling bikes, can anyone get any info on what the EU sales are, or a breakdown by country, what about Oz? India, Russia? any sales there, the UAE?
just curious
aaron
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Looked up our sales history on Energicas. We sold 31 new ones since early 2018. We were one of the very early dealers, and one of the largest ones. 2020-2022 were the hottest selling years. To put that in comparison, we sell almost that many Aprilias per month, every month.
EV sales really dropped after 2022. We gave up Zero this year as we went a year without a sale, and we couldn't get parts to properly support the others. We were a Zero dealer since 2012 and used to consistently sell a few per month, then sales came to a sudden halt.
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We were one of the very early dealers, and one of the largest ones. 2020-2022 were the hottest selling years.
Did they get in touch with you or EoNY or Tytler's? They needed a lot of money and I'd be disappointed to learn they didn't beat even the unlikliest bushes.
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Looked up our sales history on Energicas. We sold 31 new ones since early 2018. We were one of the very early dealers, and one of the largest ones. 2020-2022 were the hottest selling years. To put that in comparison, we sell almost that many Aprilias per month, every month.
EV sales really dropped after 2022. We gave up Zero this year as we went a year without a sale, and we couldn't get parts to properly support the others. We were a Zero dealer since 2012 and used to consistently sell a few per month, then sales came to a sudden halt.
That is a shame regarding your lack of Zero sales. :( About 8 years ago, my Zero dealer in Daly City, CA, (where I bought my 2012 and 2014 Zeros) got in trouble with her Yamaha franchise when she sold more Zeros than Yamahas one year. I was told that Yamaha pulled her franchise and after spending money on lawyers trying to get it back, she finally gave up her Yamaha business, which left her with Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Zero. However, it wasn't long before she got tired of all of the problems and hassle running a multi-line motorcycle dealership and threw in the towel, selling her building and property to a Dollar Store and then retired. The Zero business and several of her experienced Zero staff went to SF Moto in San Francisco around 2017, which is where I bought my 2018 Zero S.
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Most recently in the press:
Sales figures too low: The Italian electric motorcycle brand Energica filed for insolvency on October 14. This means that one of the best-known pioneering brands has become another victim of the lack of interest in electric motorcycles.
Energica's main American shareholder, the fund company Ideanomics Inc, holds 75% of the shares and has now pulled the plug. Energica had been building electric motorcycles since 2009 and founded the Energica Motor Company in Modena in 2014. It ran the FIM MotoE World Championship as part of the MotoGP with its vehicles for four years. High-performance series models such as the Ego sports bike and the EsseEsse 9 and Eva Ribelle naked bikes caused an international sensation, but the sales figures for the expensive e-bikes were always low and the financial situation was always critical. In 2021, the US fund company Ideanomics got on board and when the Experia touring bike appeared the following year, there was a glimmer of hope because sales had risen by 200 percent according to the manufacturer. However, the flash in the pan soon died out again and the desperate search for further investors was unsuccessful.
A court has opened bankruptcy proceedings against Energica. The future of service and spare parts supply for customers is still completely unclear.
Not at all promising :(
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Article in Italian magazine, interviewing Gianpiero Testoni about the situation.
https://www.dueruote.it/da-sapere/2024/10/22/energica-cosa-succede-ora.html (https://www.dueruote.it/da-sapere/2024/10/22/energica-cosa-succede-ora.html)
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Article in Italian magazine, interviewing Gianpiero Testoni about the situation.
https://www.dueruote.it/da-sapere/2024/10/22/energica-cosa-succede-ora.html (https://www.dueruote.it/da-sapere/2024/10/22/energica-cosa-succede-ora.html)
I don't suppose you could summarise any interesting tidbits for the poor anglophones among us?
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I don't suppose you could summarise any interesting tidbits for the poor anglophones among us?
Giampiero blamed Ideanomics for closing the tap on Energica, causing the bankruptcy. He also said that he's hopeful another investor will pick Energica up.
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...to be fair, he also mentions that they have already negotiated with various parties but ultimately no agreement was reached!
and here the official press release from 15th of October:
Energica Motor Company SpA, a manufacturer of high-performance electric motorcycles 75% controlled by the American fund Ideanomics Inc., announces that its Board of Directors meeting held on 14 October 2024 at 3:00 p.m. resolved to enter into a bankruptcy judicial liquidation pursuant to art. 121 et seq. of the insolvency law.
Officially founded in 2014 as Energica Motor Company Srl, and with a design phase that began in 2009, the company has established itself over 15 years as a benchmark for high-performance electric mobility, demonstrating resilience and innovation.
Thanks to its technical know-how, considered the company’s main asset, Energica has introduced four technological platforms to the market and has served as the Unique Manufacturer of the fourth MotoGP electric category, the FIM Enel MotoE World Cup, for four consecutive years. Despite the challenges posed by the global pandemic, Energica achieved record sales volumes and revenues with the launch of the Experia model.
Energica’s entrepreneurial vision has been supported and financed from the outset by its founding partners, who in 2016 decided to list the company in the AIM Italia sector (now Euronext Growth Milan), dedicated to innovative Italian SMEs, to secure the necessary capital for growth that they could no longer sustain alone. The company was listed with a capitalization of €37.3 million.
In 2021, with the investment from Ideanomics Inc., Energica launched the Experia model, achieving record sales volumes and revenues of €13 million, a 200% increase compared to 2021.
In March 2022, Ideanomics successfully completed a voluntary takeover bid, which allowed the shareholders to transform the company into a private entity, making it more free and flexible in managing financing and agile in its growth.
However, the subsequent crisis in the electric market and the decline in sector investments impacted Ideanomics, and consequently, compromised Energica’s investment capabilities.
The company has also faced challenges from the downturn in the automotive market and supply chain, being particularly affected as a small and medium-sized enterprise. The commitment to its objectives and mission has remained steadfast, as demonstrated by initiatives like the solidarity contract aimed at safeguarding workers and overcoming the difficult period.
Despite the efforts from the management in actively and extensively pursuing a search for new investors – always with the aim of preserving going concern in the best interest of creditors – it has
become clear in the last few hours that these alternative options are no more viable, thus leaving the company with no other choice than resolving for the opening of a bankruptcy judicial liquidation, thus allowing repayment of creditors to the extent possible from the proceeds of liquidation and according to pari passu rule and priority rankings.
Throughout its history, the company has consistently invested in its workforce, training staff in the most innovative skills in the electric mobility sector, without making any contract terminations in its 15 years of activity. The founding members have prioritized young talent, collaborating closely with schools and universities across the country and beyond. The average age of Energica employees has always ranged from 28 to 35 years.
Management has guaranteed salaries even during the most challenging periods, where necessary also thanks to the support of the Italian minority shareholders, always with a view to preserving business continuity and in the best interest of creditors and all stakeholders. In the last two years, some employees have voluntarily left the company; these professionals have since been absorbed by major players in the Motor Valley.
This press release is attributed to the founding members of Energica. It is noted that Ideanomics has chosen not to comment.
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An important takeout from that article is they’d already dropped drop 150 to 50 staff (over the same period people started complaining that spares were not forthcoming), but that those remaining 50 were hardcore loyalists with the skills to teach new employees should the organisation survive.
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Here's the automatic translation of the Italian article:
Energica, all is not lost
What will become of Energica after bankruptcy? All is not lost, as Giampiero Testoni, the long-time technical manager of the Modena-based company, explains. Much will depend on the interest of other companies in the technology developed in recent years
The automotive world, Sergio Marchionne liked to recall, is the most competitive of all. Motorcycle racing is perhaps a little less so, but if we move to the electric motorcycle segment, then it is brutal to say the least. The market is small and subject to sudden changes in the mood of the political world, which complicate the life of any company, let alone those that are struggling to establish themselves.
We had so far seen a flourishing of failures in the United States (the latest case, a few days ago, was Fuell, the latest company to come out of Eric Buell's ingenuity), where, moreover, the philosophy of start-ups is related to our saying "make it or break it" and we know that 90% of the time we end up taking the books to court. Except that the books of these companies consisted of a few pages, while the history of Energica is over 10 years long and full of successes: industrialized motorcycles, sold and appreciated, the adventure in MotoE, contracts with Public Administrations around the world to provide police forces, military and so on.
What will happen now? We talked about it with Giampaolo Testoni, who has been in charge of technical development since the beginning of Energica's adventure and whom we found combative as always.
Giampiero, it is not an easy time. Can you summarize what happened?
"What was said happened: we reached a point where we no longer had the funds to continue. We negotiated until a few days ago with an interested investor, but at the last minute he said no. At that point we filed for judicial liquidation."
At this point, what will happen?
"The liquidator will take matters into his own hands with the aim of selling everything, possibly together, and getting the company going again."
What's inside Energica today?
"There are still 50 employees, much less than the almost 150 touched two years ago but still a substantial number. They are largely the 'diehards' who have been with us from the first hour, enthusiastic and trained people able to restart the company and its technology immediately. This is the real value. Then of course we have patents, we have 60% of a warehouse capable of supporting production for the next two years, we have a good customer portfolio: France alone had already ordered 200 motorcycles for its state fleets."
With all these orders, couldn't we go on?
"60% is not enough to build motorcycles, not even 99% is enough because if you are missing just one of the more than 1,000 components that make up a motorcycle, you cannot complete and deliver the motorcycle. To start again, we have to pay the suppliers that we have not been able to pay in recent months."
That's because the American fund Ideanomics has turned off the taps, right?
"Yes, the fund already has its difficulties at home, it is paying for the difficult moment of electric and some wrong choices. We lacked the money we had agreed on in the development plan, but I still want to remember that Ideanomics was an excellent partner until it had problems: competent people, who know what it means to develop a hi-tech product and who do not just aim to earn within three months, as many stock market investors do. To do the 'delisting', bring Energica back from public to private, it invested 100 million dollars, and put more to support the business during Covid, with all the uncertainty that existed."
It seemed like the beginning of a transformation of Energica from a start-up to a real company.
"Definitely. We started with 3, when we reached 30 we already felt like a lot, but with them we have risen to 150 employees. We were able to industrialize the Experia, based on our second-generation platform. We have done the 'Energica Inside' project to bring our technology to other areas. We started the Electric Motor Valley, Reinova also came to settle here next to us."
Wouldn't you have grown as much with the Stock Exchange?
"No, as I said, the Stock Exchange is made up of investors who today choose you, tomorrow maybe logistics or the food industry. The Stock Exchange is volatile, maybe you even collect half a million or a million euros at a time, but with half a million euros you can make molds for a fairing... With that kind of resources you grow one step at a time, as we had always done. The capital for a new technology is needed all at once, it is Ideanomics that made us take the leap."
Unfortunately, now that you have done so, it is even more expensive to save the company.
"Of course, you have to believe in it. But you don't need a lot of money: as I said, Energica is not an empty box: between technology, orders, the value of the people we have trained in these 10 years, the company is ready to start again and the money it would take is certainly worth it."
Who could buy a company like Energica today?
"Everything is possible, I don't believe in financial investors. I believe in an industrial investor, one who understands the value of this company and what it has done. Someone who possibly makes it restart without taking it abroad, given that many from abroad are frightened by our bureaucracy, our unions, our rules and regulations... doing business in Italy is difficult, but on the other hand, for what we have done abroad, perhaps in the United States, we would have needed three times as many people and resources."
Any motorcycle giants still behind on electric?
"Yes, ideally. We have already spoken to someone, but for one reason or another the marriage did not take place. Either because of fears about Italy, or because of our premium positioning that some manufacturers in developing countries may be less interested in... I expect someone from abroad, in Italy there is the mentality of doing things at home. It is strange that in these 10 years no one has come forward to acquire us, even if only for the technology that you can put wherever you want, from electric cranes to street cleaners. Of course, the best thing would be a motorcycle company, because sooner or later it is clear that we will have to go electric. Just look at the statements of the Japanese manufacturers."
Is Italy in danger of being left behind?
"I don't know. We all know that Ducati is working on the electric motorcycle, the others are not clear. I can say that there is no doubt that we have done a lot to clear the high-performance electric motorcycle. For years, many have made amazing statements and have never materialized, and instead we were the only credible ones: the first to make real high performance, the first in MotoE, the first with Fast Charge, with interoperability with all the plants in the world including those of Tesla... things that not even Harley was able to do when she got into it."
Could a Chinese manufacturer arrive? On the electric car they are far ahead, but the bike is completely different.
"It could. And I don't know if it would be a victory or a defeat."
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In addition to that, the German motorcycle magazine MOTORRAD has led an interview with Livia. Printed in today's issue It discloses a little bit more information. Pay attention to the bold underlined larger line at the bottom!
Interview
"I want it to continue - even without me" Livia Cevolini (photo), co-founder of Energica in 2009 and long-time CEO, spoke to MOTORRAD two days after the bankruptcy about the reasons for the failure of the e-motorcycle manufacturer.
There is an eerie silence in the now abandoned Energica factory in Soliera near Modena. Livia Cevolini, visibly shaken but still trying to smile, welcomes us in the showroom, where the range of models is lined up: Ego, Eva, EsseEsse9 and Experia.
Are you sad? Or angry?
Both. Sad because Energica is extremely important to me because a lot of my energy and emotions are in the company.
Angry because we failed not because of the technology but because of the external conditions.
Energica is a small start-up and therefore dependent on the Market, trends and moods. We survived Corona, but then came the wars, the global crisis. In addition, the mood has turned against e-mobility, which is why investors are currently not investing any venture capital here. However, we would have needed fresh capital for the series production of Experia because our majority shareholder Ideanomics is itself in financial difficulties. There was no cash flow from them since more than a year.
Energica was initially a purely family business, but since 2021 it has been 75 percent owned by the US group Ideanomics. Was it wrong to sell?
No. We knew from the start that we did not have the means to finance larger series production. I still find Ideanomics' business model convincing: connecting and financing e-mobility companies worldwide until they get going and are self-sustaining. It went well at first. It was not foreseeable in 2021 that Ideanomics would get into difficulties.
Why did the insolvency come exactly now?
Because, unlike in the last few months, we were no longer in negotiations with a new investor. Then it is legally required to file for bankruptcy if you are already in crisis. For the past year, we have only been able to continue by juggling our resources. Especially it is bitter that the Experia, which we presented in 2022, was very well received.
We had 1100 orders, but we didn't even build half of them because we also need parts from suppliers and didn't have the money for that. If we had been able to build them all, we would have covered our costs in about six months - an annual production of 2000 motorcycles would have been enough to support ourselves. In a country like Germany we would probably have managed it, but in Italy there was no funding at all.
What will happen next?
The court in Modena will appoint an insolvency administrator. And I hope he or she quickly looks for and finds someone to take over Energica. An insolvent company costs significantly less than a running one, so I have some hope. We have patents, a highly developed e-technology like no one else in the motorcycle sector, four e-motorcycle platforms and even another fully developed motorcycle. I will definitely keep looking, I absolutely want Energica to continue - even without me.
What does the insolvency mean for dealers and customers?
The dealers are still there, around 100 worldwide. They are still the contact for our customers, of which there are around 2000. They will continue to be supplied with spare parts, at least as long as they are in stock. After that, either the insolvency administrator will decide whether more parts will be produced. Or, what I would much prefer, a new owner.
For all Europeans: Please consider to buy the magazine!
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@most
Much, much appreciated, thanks for posting
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I still find Ideanomics' business model convincing: connecting and financing e-mobility companies worldwide until they get going and are self-sustaining. It went well at first. It was not foreseeable in 2021 that Ideanomics would get into difficulties.
Does she really not understand that Ideanomics was and is a penny stock scam?
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I suspect she's being diplomatic given that she might have a chance of working with any revival that might come out of this, there does seem to be a general view that they actually thought Ideanomics had a well founded base though.
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She's being diplomatic. She knows they are cunts who robbed Energica blind and just used them to pull off their scam.
She can't say that though, or they would probably sue her for Defamation.
The rats are sinking and grabbing for whatever floatsm they can find. why hand them a lifeboat like public defamation to cling onto for buxx??
Energica says they will continue to supply parts as they are availble, but when you read the thing, they can't even get enough parts to put together new bikes because they owe everyone money, and those people are not going to throw more money at them until they pay what they owe or.... whatever. Hence the bankruptcy proceedings.
Bankruptcy is their way of trying to clean the platter, and restart fresh, to continue in a better way, with what they already have.
Given we are hearing comments like, git rid of me if you have to, just keep the company going, is a VERY STRONG indication that they mean business. They have a plan and really want to keep this thing going.
They make comments about Italy, and it's workers unions, and difficulties, and that in the US it'd probably take twice as many people to do what they are doing in Italy. I propose, they are probably correct because they are working in a communist run state in the US. Move to a better state, one that is actually friendly towards business', treat your people well, and you can do just as well in the US and not NEED double the people if you can manage to keep the Union cancer OUT of your work place!!
I really want to see them succeed but there are going to have to be some serious changes. One of them is cutting a LOT of the expenses. NOT living / working in a state that taxes you just for being alive basically... is a good start on that route. Which is why pretty much every other business that wants to succeed is moving OUT of Commiefornia.
Even if Trump gets elected as president.
Even with all the promises he's making on how he's going to fix thing.
some things... just can't be fixed. your best route is to pick up and leave them behind.
Also, their bikes ARE expensive, it's the technology, it is what it is. If they could move just enough of the production over here to say, see it's built in the USA as well, .. enough to qualify it for the federal rebate, THAT would also help, being able to tell potential customers, plus you get 4k back from the government, would sell bikes!
just some thoughts
Aaron
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I really hope you’re right about the nature of the bankruptcy. I do plan on buying an Experia in the next 3-5 years, and I really don’t see another manufacturer stepping up and making a vehicle in that segment to such a high standard for at least 7 years. If Energica liquidates I might pick a used one up sooner at a lower price, but I’d really prefer to save up longer for an improved model with parts and support. Give me 35 kW DC and 6 kW AC charging and I’ll be in hog heaven. For extra credit past an A+ grade, add a full-fat EMCE motor option with RS gearing, semi-active suspension, quick-adjustable windscreen (either electric or one-hand adjustable like the Triumph Tiger), and adaptive cruise control with blind-spot monitoring.
The only other way we’re getting an “Experia” is to wait until the cows come home for Zero to switch pack voltages for DCFC, or wait for Ducati to introduce an electric Multistrada. I don’t see the former happening before the e-moto and financial markets pick up again in a few years, and I don’t see the latter happening for a long time. Duc will probably start with a PanigalE and a StrEetfighter before they make a MultEstrada. When they finally do get around to it, they will be held to a very high bar if the Experia is still around and being improved upon. That would be good for the whole motorcycle industry, raising the bar for gas and electric bikes.
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Flynn, I think the best time to pick up an Experia is now. I see them now offered with a 30 % discount.
I had hopes for an E-Ducati but not anymore. Audi, the owner of Ducati, is part of the Volkswagen Group which is currently restructuring. Looking at the current mood about e-mobility, they will not invest into anything related to this. So, buying Energica or getting an e-Ducati on the market, this is not going to happen anytime soon.
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I agree it’s a good time to pick up a new Experia, but 70% of $22k is still way too rich for my blood right now. I’m house poor for the next couple years so I can maybe afford to splurge on a stick of gum. I’d rather Energica be rescued and continue development and I’ll pay full price for an upgraded model in 3-5 years. If they go under and owners figure out how to keep the bikes going with chewing gum and newspaper holding them together, maybe I’ll get one sooner at the “Fisker Ocean” discount rate, but that’s not what I’m hoping for.
My predictions for an electric Ducati are somewhere around 2030-32 for a “PanigalE” and/or “StrEetfighter” and 2033-35 for an electric Multistrada. I’d love to be proven wrong, but full Multistrada redesigns only happen every 6 years or so, and I don’t see them putting any kind of electric assist in the next one c2027-28. Can you imagine how silly Ducati would look with their usual +10 HP against a 2030 Experia RS with a solid-state pack and 2nd gen EMCE motor peaking at 200+ HP? Fingers crossed that the bankruptcy court allows that match-up to happen!
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Buying an Energica now is a gamble on the entire purchase price of the bike. If something goes wrong with the battery or associated electronics, you are out of options to get it fixed.
Considering how few Energica bikes are out there, there are way too many stories of bikes with issues to take the risk now, IMHO, unless you can afford to lose it all.
My first Rebelle went 90 miles before it died. Simply stopped dead on the road. Stefano replaced the entire bike within 2 weeks. If that happened now I would be out of luck.
I knew the risks of early tech adoption, and went for it. Now? No way. Risk to reward ratio is through the roof.
Get a Zero or a LiveWire. They are not horrible, and they at least have service and support options. The LiveWire one is a genuine comp to the Energica, maybe even better unless you are planning to ride track with it.
Or just get a great ICE bike. No shortage of those.
The state of electric hypersport bikes is on hold for now.
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Agreed,
I now own a very rare SS9 (I think the colors I chose have not been delivered to any other bike in Europe), at a zero to no resale value :-)
As for the battery, there is a tech shop here in Norway that claims they can repair or swap single cells in the battery. For the electronics, if things go bust, the bike is a brick....
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Agreed,
I now own a very rare SS9 (I think the colors I chose have not been delivered to any other bike in Europe), at a zero to no resale value :-)
As for the battery, there is a tech shop here in Norway that claims they can repair or swap single cells in the battery. For the electronics, if things go bust, the bike is a brick....
Hopefully, there will be some ambitious individuals in every region who start to stockpile bikes that are being sold cheap, or sold for junk due to inoperable status and will have used, but working components to keep the machines running for some time.
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EEMC have said before they're happy to break open Energica batteries and root around in their guts and I expect that depending on what the problem is they probably still are.
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are these batteries not sealed in resin like I think, zero ?
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I have no idea what's inside the box but resin sealing isn't common in EVs as far as I know.
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I think Zero is the only one that pots their batteries. Energicas can be repacked in theory, if you can get the new pack to talk to the controller and the rest of the electronics.
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Opening one of them up is a bit risky.
A. It's heavy as shit, hope you have a solid stand and a way to turn the thing up / down / sideways and around as you work on it. A cherry picker setup worked for me.
The pack is 300 volts, once you got hot inside, there is NOTHING protecting ANYTHING from you making a mistake and touching something wrong.
I'll tell you right now, if you DO arc flash that thing, it WILL be catastrophic. You'll damage at least one cell, to the point of auto self destruction, with no way to isolate it from the pack, save maybe getting a bolt cutters and cutting thru a bus that has how many hundreds of DC amps running thru it now.
At short circuit currents it will only take a few seconds tops for things to overheat, swell, vent and now it's a chain reaction as you have a sympathetic melt down.
Secondly, what exactly do you envision as being inside one of these packs? I have taken one apart. It isn't just a can full of battery cells. You have bus'. wiring out the ass, BMS boards,tie in boards, a bajillion nickle weld tabs. on and on and on. Then there are the communications boards, CAN bus, so on and so forth. It's a pretty complex device.
Do you really want to go gorilla footing around in it if you don't know exactly what you are doing.
I HAVE to warn you.
Opening that pack up is DEADLY. You come across that bus hand to hand you will die. 300 volts will lock you up and the rest is an old tale of carelessness and DC voltage.
Please be careful if you want to poke there.
At the end of the day it's a 20kw pack, either rebuild it for house storage at 48 vdc nom OR just get an inverter that runs at 300 volts, they are out there and not very expensive at all.
aaron
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I would have no hesitation to opening up one of these to document findings...insulated gloves and insulated tools is all that is really needed.
The 21.5kW variant shares the same form factor of (4) modules as the smaller 13.5kW variant...each pouch cell nests in a polyimide carrier...modules can be separated...within the modules cell tabs are bonded to bus bars likely by ultra-sonic welding but this is pure speculation based on other module designs I've seen...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-C7fNSX7/0/KwWMDSTmgqssrpq8D8tWK75rbHQSG9SQm4tccbrhQ/XL/i-C7fNSX7-XL.png)
Be cool to create / share video on this forum of step-by-step dissassembly / non-destructive reverse-engineering effort...raising hand for a donor pack if one can be made available.
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is there some kind of archive website with all technical schematics like this one ? could be useful, even more now.
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Energica patent is titled "Supply Unit"...CRP Group previous parent company before Idiotnomics is into additive manufacturing and a big contributor to this pack's design, e.g. pouch carriers I'm pretty sure are 3D printed using CRP proprietary technology.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9941556B2/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US9941556B2/en)
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I have thought that one thing that would be interesting down the road would be a solid state cell swap. If you can get the right form factor cells you should be able to do a straight drop-in replacement and as long as the software works off voltage it the existing management systems should cope without modification.
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Stonewolf, the solid state. It's interesting right now.
One manu I have been watching, are pulling a tesla on their product's ratings and stated capabilities.
Remember how the powerwall was promised with all this grandoise and then quietly the specs dropped, reduced and went down.
Seeing same thing now with the SS supercaps. Amp ratings are dropping, and cycle life went from an original claim of almost a million cycles, to now maybe 10k or so. Now that these things been on the market for a while and are seeing real genuine use, and real world data is coming in on them, initial claims are quietly being re adjusted to match reality.
With that being said, I don't see any weight reduction really, in fact is heavier. Price might come down over time, but for now is pretty high. The only real benefit right now is no chemicals, or corrosives. The supercaps are essentially cellophane / saran wrap and carbon rolled into a tight tootsie roll with electrodes on it. Besides for safety, there is no real 'gain' in capacity .vs. weight on them for the time being. I havent heard of much in the way of capacity milestones hitting anywhere, just a bit of safety. I don't expect to see anything breath taking coming out in the next 4 or 5 years really. At least not at our level, and THAT is the one thing that is going to have to happen really to make Electric vehicles really hit mainstream. If not capacity, some fast charge that can be done in like 5 or 10 minutes, but THAT is going to take multi megawatts per station if you don't want a line of cars a half mile long.... and THAT is gong to take a major infrastructure overhaul. Were a ways out on all of this no matter how it plays out.
Aaron
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From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.
Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.
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From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.
Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.
I read it but solid state and semi solid state seem to be getting used interchangeably lately. The latest cells in a Stark claim to be 242 kw/kg. A 2170 form factor.
Molicel INR-21700-P45B
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Wonder if Energica will notify current bike owners of the situation at what their plans are? Or just leave everybody hanging
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Wonder if Energica will notify current bike owners of the situation at what their plans are? Or just leave everybody hanging
The plan is to lay everyone off and sell all the things. Any "plans" for the future will be up to the new buyer or buyers.
We already have been left hanging. None of us will ever get the centerstand we bought and none of us will get the benefit of the battery warranty we paid for.
I don't need to wonder if I'm going to get an individual email from Energica.
I'm just going to ride my bike, man.
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From what I've seen supercaps are a dead end for main power storage in an automotive context. Solid state is basicly ready to go and is mainly being held back by fabrication limitations, there are a few companies making actual production cells in low volumes but they're not going out to retail, they're being shipped off to various firms that have an interest so they can prepare the products into which those cells will go when mass production ramps up. My understanding is that tooling is the holdup due to the precise environmental control required in the manufacturing process. Nevertheless those cells have full spec sheets, the details are out there if you're willing to do some research or have the contacts to ask.
Solid state will get you between 70 and 100% more gravimetric capacity and about 40% more volumetric capacity. If you could find cells in the right form factor you could get about a 30kWh battery in the same box as a Ribelle with something like a 20 to 30 kg weight drop. That'd give you a range over 80% of the battery roughly equivalent to running ICE hyper nakeds down to fuel light (Tuono V4s and MT-10s are only getting 130ish miles). The caveat being that doesn't apply on the motorway but the bread and butter use case for those bikes isn't on the motorway either.
I read it but solid state and semi solid state seem to be getting used interchangeably lately. The latest cells in a Stark claim to be 242 kw/kg. A 2170 form factor.
Molicel INR-21700-P45B
I'm refering only to pure solid state, semi-solid state seems to be a thing that's being used to shift consumer electronics atm.
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Maybe HPtuners will include 2 wheel vehicles, same principal.
https://www.hptuners.com/core-ev/?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CORE%20EV%20Announcement%20%28US%29%20%282024-11-05%29&_kx=OS0Pee3gqNF40WKOvmWwVYf-SjUqdIQ23srm6opfnmY.TBic7m
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It's the brain that all these connect to that makes it tricky. Not that it's terribly difficult to reverse engineer it, but it would be time consuming. Maybe it would be simplest to replace it with some cheap Chinese general purpose controller.
I doubt it honestly. Don't the parts all communicate with each other, making them non replaceable by generic components?
Reverse engineering firmware and specialized hardware is incredibly difficult, can you clarify where you got the notion that it isn't?
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To add to that, the bright Belgian coder Hans Capelle contributed a lot by trying to decipher the OBD messages and did not completely succeed. And this was only the plain and simple exercise to fully understand what Energica‘s OBD delivers.
Maybe after all re-engineering is a tiny bit more complex than cleaning & adjusting an old carburetor - and even that not everyone could do in those days…
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Yeah, I would have trusted Hans Capelle to really delve deep into the bike's software guts, but unfortunately he sold his EsseEsse last year.
Re-engineering of mechanics might seem easy. Re-engineering of software is mostly not doable, you need the code. One example: How you want to find out what the necessary conditions are to get the bike going? OK, there are some switches that need to be engaged or disengaged (kickstand, seat, brake) but what other parameters are checked before the GO light appears? How anyone can say without looking into the actual code?
I am owning my Ribelle for more than 2 years now and never got any direct e-mail from Energica. TBH their direct customer communication was always shitty.
Talked to my dealer yesterday. Currently Energica is totally incommunicado. No one answers e-mails or picks up the phone. Since some weeks my dealer has a brand new bike standing there which suddenly refused to start after some kilometers of successful running and they do not know what to do. Compared to e.g. car dealerships they did not get the full diagnostics capabilities necessary to really find all errors. The buyer gave back the bike under lemon law and now my dealer has the shitty end of the stick.
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My dealer has currently 3 of those; two Evo and one Experia. He is currently at the EICMA I am tensed about his report.
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So, when something is behind an encryption you can just read it like that correct?
Without the codes to be able to get past passwords, I don't think you'll be too successful.
Just because you may be able to read software, do you know fully how it works? What it does, what it needs to run, stuff like that.
If it was that easy to just hack into something and make one yourself, then it'd have been done many times over, over many years, with many different items.
Like hell I am going to pay apple 1200 for a shitty phone, I have a friend with a RS 232 port who says he can reverse engineer the code in it, ill make my own for a few hundred dollars !! ::) afterall, they are made in china so the parts are easy to get because of that now right?
Aaron
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The VCU, BMS, Charger and Traction Drive all communicate CAN bus.
Why not start here...
https://www.csselectronics.com/pages/can-bus-sniffer-reverse-engineering (https://www.csselectronics.com/pages/can-bus-sniffer-reverse-engineering)
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The specific algo is proprietary. Your computer talks via protocols, and general ethernet protocol... but it's all encrypted for privacy and protection right? Just because i have a network card does not mean I can read your communications, unless I work for the CIA or something.
Aaron
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The software/firmware is encrypted/uses proprietary code, but my understanding is they have release the software to the principal dealers to continue support customers without Energica involvement
Edited the with to without
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That is what I have heard. Where previously energica Italy had to remote in to a pc to inspect the bike, now the dealers can do so directly.
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I don't know anything about canbus BUT it makes no sense for it to be encrypted unless you're trying to do proprietary unlock keys and stuff. Most of the system should be unencrypted because it's all wired directly around the bike so the risk level is extremely low (access to hardware is basicly game over securitywise) and the overhead of encryption isn't needed. For external wireless connections you are right that encryption is entirely appropriate and desired but for wired connections between components on the bike it's just unnecessary.
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I don't know anything about canbus BUT it makes no sense for it to be encrypted unless you're trying to do proprietary unlock keys and stuff. Most of the system should be unencrypted because it's all wired directly around the bike so the risk level is extremely low (access to hardware is basicly game over securitywise) and the overhead of encryption isn't needed. For external wireless connections you are right that encryption is entirely appropriate and desired but for wired connections between components on the bike it's just unnecessary.
Correctly stated.
CAN Bus protocols are standardized but it's the messaging permissions that gain you entry, a safeguard but not encryption.
If Energica dealers have means to upload, save and reflash firmware then this is great news...can this be confirmed?
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A new owners association has been set up. Just in case you didn’t know about it. I hope you find this attached file press release helpful. Energica Owners Unite to Form the Energica Owners Association Amid Corporate Receivership
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be careful opening pdf's from sources you do not know
aaron
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Thank you for encouraging caution on the Internet hopefully that all members here at Internet savvy. PDF files are not normally a problem though. I will copy and paste the text below so that you can see what is contained and that it is genuine. The formatting has been removed but as you can see it's a good idea. I hope you find it helpful. Philip :o)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Energica Owners Unite to Form the Energica Owners Association Amid Corporate
Receivership
October 28, 2024 – In response to the recent announcement that Energica Motor Corporation is
entering receivership, Energica motorcycle owners around the world have come together to form
the Energica Owners Association (EOA). This new group is focused on representing the interests
of current and future Energica owners as the company’s assets face potential sale under an Italian
court’s direction.
The EOA’s mission is simple: To connect and empower Energica Owners worldwide, building a
community that helps owners navigate present-day challenges and advocates for the long-
term performance, reliability, and operability of our motorcycles.
As Energica owners, we are committed to preserving the legacy of our motorcycles and ensuring we
can continue to maintain, operate, and enjoy these revolutionary vehicles for years to come.
Key Advocacy Areas:
* Access to Parts: Maintain fair market access to parts for ongoing maintenance and repairs.
* Software Availability: Gain and keep access to critical diagnostic software, software
updates, and resources needed for ongoing upkeep and performance.
* Technical Knowledge: Gain and keep access to critical technical and service knowledge
and documentation required for ongoing maintenance.
* Technical Stability: Ensure availability to updates and patches to prevent system failures,
support changing charging standards, and prevent battery & performance degradation.
If Energica’s ongoing support cannot continue, the EOA will pursue non-commercial rights to all
technical knowledge and software (including source code) necessary to maintain and support
these motorcycles independently.
The EOA will work to support any sale of Energica’s assets that:
* Preserves access to parts, software, and documentation.
* Provides for service platforms needed for diagnostics and repairs.
* Protects the ability of owners to maintain and update their motorcycles independently.
The Energica Owners Association is committed to building strong, collaborative relationships with
Energica stakeholders and future asset holders. Our community believes these motorcycles
represent more than just a product; they symbolize innovation, freedom, and the promise of
sustainable electric mobility.
The Energica Owners Association is online at Energica Owners Association | Facebook
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Thanks a lot.
Is there a possibility to join for those being not in facebook ;)
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Flip, thank you for being decent.
yes you CAN imbed shit into a pdf that an unsuspecting person can click and get grief from.
Macro's and VBS scripts can be a real issue. Typically most people you would hope were intelligent enough to not fall for that stuff but well.. if there weren't stupid people out there, there wouldn't be scammers now would there.
As far as that group goes, it sounds like a great idea but if the company goes tits up. No more parts, no more support, no more upgrades, no more software etc. best one can hope for is to get the original code somehow so that between all of use, we can figure out how to keep our bikes running when they shit themselves, and we put what parts are left in them, and have to 're marry' everything.
Again, the Italian part of the company may dissolve, but from what I am lead to believe, the US part is still alive and well and wishes to keep going .... but has to wait for all the bullshit to play through the courts before they can actually really DO anything significant. This is what my insurance adjuster told me when he called me to discuss my bike and my 'situation'. so keeping fingers crossed all ends up well and we won't need to worry about all this. but still. it's be really good to have a group for support either way.
Aaron
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Hey Aaron,
I wouldn't know how to put poop into a PDF I am not that cleaver haha... So yes don't worry it's completely safe n poop free made by Rick Flashman a trusted owner.
I guess the whole idea of this project is that there are a number of us and if we all put our heads together we should be able to find some solutions as between us we probably share quite a large skill set.
Philip
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Thanks a lot.
Is there a possibility to join for those being not in facebook ;)
I'm not on FB either and would be great to join if possible.
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It's early days at the moment so for those that don't have Facebook there may be an opportunity to set up a website and a mailing list at some point in the future. I will propose that to the group and see what they say :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj1nqzOxRx4
From Rick Flashman on FB:
"Some potential good news. Seems the Italian government is extended salary payments for 37 core employees for the rest of 2024, with an option to extend to 2025. The government has also urged the court trustee to speed up the search for a single buyer as to not loose the ability to make it hard for the new buyer to restart production."
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Just when I’m ready to give up hope Pard comes along with some very tantalising tidbit. Bastard 😂
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Just when I’m ready to give up hope Pard comes along with some very tantalising tidbit. Bastard 😂
;D
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che bella notizia!
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I was talking to the UK distributor today to get a handle on service item availability (good) and they reckoned there's hope yet of the company coming back they seemed to understand that a bid was being made for it.
In funnier news because I can't make it over to them for a service I said I'd need to go to <local service partner> and they were like actually those guys are also bankrupt!
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There are numerous potential buyers, but they have to wait for all this crap to run it's course through the court system before they can do anything.
Energica is NOT DEAD YET, they have to wade the sewage to get out the other end clean so that a potential buyer CAN take over the company withoug getting straddled with the huge mess that was left by the previous owner / scumbags.
Aaron
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There are numerous potential buyers, but they have to wait for all this crap to run it's course through the court system before they can do anything.
Energica is NOT DEAD YET, they have to wade the sewage to get out the other end clean so that a potential buyer CAN take over the company withoug getting straddled with the huge mess that was left by the previous owner / scumbags.
Aaron
https://youtu.be/W4rR-OsTNCg?feature=shared
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Chris Paz, Service Manager at Energica, is posting on this forum and on the FB owners group. That is very good news!
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I patiently waited for news about Energica with solid state batteries. Fingers still crossed.
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Chris Paz, Service Manager at Energica
I saw that about Chris (Demoni?), the dude is almost trying single handedly to support the entire customer base
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The motorcycle industry as a whole is struggling right now. Gen Z thinks bikes are too dangerous. KTM is in trouble which is a shame, I owned a Husky 701 which was an amazing dual-sport.
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I patiently waited for news about Energica with solid state batteries. Fingers still crossed.
You'll be waiting a while methinks..! ;) Your fingers will get quite sore.
Smithy.
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Gen Z thinks bikes are too dangerous.
I believe they are in a position to know, seeing how they are the ones texting and live-streaming while blowing through stoplights at two or three times the speed limit.
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I believe they are in a position to know, seeing how they are the ones texting and live-streaming while blowing through stoplights at two or three times the speed limit.
Sadly, social media addiction affects older folks even worse. So before you go and yell out, 'those darn kids these days!', know that Gen-Xers were exposed to a lot of lead as children.
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Get off my grass, you dam kids! ;)
Well, I don't have that problem anymore. ::)
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I don't think Gen Z do think motorbikes are dangerous, I know a few Gen Z motorcyclists. Gen Z have been raised on digital experiences their entire lives and don't necessarily think about physical experiences especially when each successive cohort is now poorer than their predecessors while anything that's a physical experience keeps getting more expensive and difficult to access.
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No indeed. The problem Gen Z has is they have no fucking money having been systematically deprived of the means to ever have any, largely as a result of housing policy.
Cas :)
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In most parts of the world, being broke makes a person more likely to choose a motorcycle over a car. I think there’s just a culture in North America that you don’t ride for transportation. Even most riders I know will get in a car when they have to go somewhere. I don’t think it even occurs to them that the bike they ride for fun on the weekend could make that same trip and they don’t have to sit in traffic or pay exorbitant sums of money on things like insurance and parking.
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That used to be the case here in the UK but they're now all so big, and so hugely expensive, and the insurance is nuts (about the same as a car somehow), and the cost of just running the things is barely cheaper than a car (tyres and servicing are vastly more expensive than a car), that most riders are over 50 which is crazy. But we're the only buggers who can afford it. I went to a bike meet in summer down at West Bay and I was one of the youngest people there :|
Cas :)
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I agree - the 400-600cc bracket is where all the action should really be. And I notice that the Asian manufactures (CFMoto, Kove, RE, etc) have leapt in to dominate there with bikes that we can actually afford again that aren't actually that bad. Europe and to a lesser extent Japan have been caught off guard by the extraordinary value for money of these new bikes. So we might see the tide turning. Much as I love a fully-loaded GS, I sure would love one that was half the price without all the stupid electronic features. Or come to think of it, the stupid horsepower.
Cas :)
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There are also new riders to consider. My wife wants to get into riding, but she won’t even consider anything over about 300cc’s and she likes the classic 60’s look and standard riding position. That leaves her choices as Vespa, Royal Enfield… and that’s it!
The big OEMs have almost completely abandoned entry-level bikes, and then they scratch their heads wondering why so few people are getting into motorcycling. The Ninja 250 has become a 500, the Suzuki TU250X and Sym Wolf Classic 150 are discontinued, the Honda Nighthawk 250 is long gone, etc. These were all affordable, attractive, practical bikes that could be ridden on highways, were fun little city runabouts and backroad bikes, and anyone could learn on. You can still find decent 125 to 150cc bikes, but those are a lot more limited and a new rider can’t really grow into them the way they can grow into a 250 or 300.
I’m glad Zero is targeting this segment, although it’s still going to be a while before a capable electric can compete on price in this category, IMO.
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There are also new riders to consider. My wife wants to get into riding, but she won’t even consider anything over about 300cc’s and she likes the classic 60’s look and standard riding position. That leaves her choices as Vespa, Royal Enfield… and that’s it!
Sounds like SuperCub is a perfect fit for her. If you can convince her to go up to 350 you have better selection. But don't overlook the 100-300cc class. Those bikes can be great fun.
An electric bike in that class could be fun too. If Zero would take one of their new off-road bikes and make street version,,?
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I should have kept my 1957 Cushman Eagle
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I should have kept my 1957 Cushman Eagle
And I should have kept my 1958 Sears Roebuck Allstate (Puch) 125cc motorcycle - not. ;)
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No indeed. The problem Gen Z has is they have no fucking money having been systematically deprived of the means to ever have any, largely as a result of housing policy.
I don't believe you. What I see is that everyone all wants to live in the same places, and that results in competition for space, driving up prices. Someone has to win. It might as well be the smartest. That's best for everyone in the long run. In the limit, if you build ultra-dense housing you just end up with NYC -- still unaffordable. Anyone willing to live elsewhere will be fine, especially as remote work, on-line business and free delivery are on the rise. Not much has changed except for the level of entitlement and jealousy. Economic mobility is still there. When I was growing up, houses were out of the reach of kids.
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This is not the case in the UK.
Cas :)
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Just read that KTM is also in trouble. 250 million Euro deficit and they are going to reduce workforce by 1000 that are 20%.
I hoped they would take over Energica… That’s sad.😔
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I think the most likely return to operation is a management buyout with some non-industry angel investor backing it up.
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Just read that KTM is also in trouble. 250 million Euro deficit and they are going to reduce workforce by 1000 that are 20%.
I hoped they would take over Energica… That’s sad.😔
Be careful what you wish for! Just imagine trying to get a warranty replacement of an expensive powertrain component with KTM at the helm.
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here we go:
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ktm-to-enter-self-administration-amid-financial-struggles/10676751/
Giacomo
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Not that it matters much, but Energica's scammy parent Ideanomics has also filed for bankruptcy.
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It's so they can get out from the axe that is swinging at their heads.
They shit on a lot of people and now many of them are looking to get their money back / damages etc.
This is the duck and run tactic that every sleazy contractor (which basically is what they were acting as) does when they get caught and the shit hits the fan.
They got fined, delisted, SHOULD be in jail getting ass raped...but that 's just my opinion.
Aaron
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Polaris buys Victory and kills it.
Harley buys Buell and Alta and kills them.
Ideanomics buys Energica and kills it.
Enel X buys Juicebox and kills it.
Who is going to buy Pierer and kill the whole lot -- KTM, Husqvarna, Husaberg, GasGas, ...?
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I am convinced that KTM will not be sold, it's private owned by an Austrian, they are proud people.
But reorganising the company will be painful. Just a few days ago, KTM announced they will get rid of MV Agusta which was taken over just in March this year. They are building beautiful bikes, but in terms of sales they are so small - I am afraid, they are destined to be the next insolvency.
All in all, the whole automotive industry (2 and 4 wheels) is in turmoil, because bad management meets bad politics plus (relative) sales downturn.
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Sales have gone down because salaries have gone down.
Salaries have gone down because shareholders share of the business income has increased.
To maintain increased shareholders share companies have raised prices.
Sales have gone down even more because prices have increased.
Company goes bust after paying the highest profit in 70 years.
Company gets saved by the government to save jobs.
Salaries go down because the company just went bust.
I guess trickle down economy doesn't work.
Or... The actual spending power of the consumer has been steadily reduced as Government borrows and spends on endless wars and social experiments, diluting fiat currency along the way...
The creation of, and response to, the Covid fiasco also buggered the global economy and many industries, despite the short term bump motorcycle sales took during the lockdowns.
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If they had to have a govt bailout then they were NOT doing well PERIOD !! Giving huge bonus' to keep the workers happy, even if you are failing was NEVER a good idea, contrary to what the marxist / communist goon morons in the unions continue to regurgitate.
This bullshit with GM, as an example, too big to fail. Now they have shitty products, their electronics just plans suck, have for a good decade or more now, and there are no efforts to fix it because why? we lose another 3 billion the govt will just keep throwing more money at us, NO NEED TO BE BETTER !!! because there are no repercussions for being shitty. Without the govt titty to suck on, they would have had to get leaner, get better, to earn their customer base back and BE better, not just be fatter.
Economies work when the government keeps it's hands OUT of it and lets it take it's natural course.
Aaron