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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 15, 2024, 03:33:02 AM
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The USPS shows off it new local electric delivery truck as detailed this article.
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Page 2.
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Wikipedia has a lot more detail regarding the different variants of this truck:
Drivetrain
There are four planned variants: either an internal combustion engine or battery-electric powertrain, both of which will have options for either two- or four-wheel drive.[5] The 2WD ICE model will have 4,112 purchased parts; the 4WD ICE model has 3,995 parts in common with the 2WD ICE model, while BEV variants have 3,297 and 3,196 parts in common with the 2WD ICE for the 2WD and 4WD BEV models, respectively.[1]
Either powertrain option can be built for future orders, and models with an ICE can be converted to battery-electric if required.[54] Ford has been announced as the drivetrain subsystem supplier, including engines, traction motors, and transmissions.[88] Ford Component Sales also will provide Oshkosh with key parts for suspensions and other components, including cabin interiors.[89] The earlier Oshkosh prototype evaluated during testing was based on the Ford Transit van.[84][85]
The ICE will be a Ford EcoBoost 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder gasoline engine.[1] At CES 2022, the video display accompanying the NGDV display showed specifications for the EcoBoost and 8-speed automatic transmission that will be used in the ICE-drivetrain variant. The EcoBoost has a peak output of 250 hp (190 kW) at 5,500 RPM and 275 lb?ft (373 N?m) at 3,000 RPM, but this was de-rated to 206 lb?ft (279 N?m) for reliability.[1]
The electric variant has a Bosch-sourced eAxle drive unit[90] and a 94 kW-hr lithium-ion battery using nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry.[2]:?Table 3-1.3? The eAxle drive unit is a traction motor with an integrated reduction gearbox and inverter. The permanent magnet AC traction motor has a peak output of 150 kW (200 hp) and a continuous output of 70 kW (94 hp); power is supplied to the wheels through the gearbox with an 11.8:1 ratio. The inverter uses silicon IGBT circuitry.[90]
Fuel economy and range
The internal combustion engine (ICE) variant has an estimated fuel efficiency of 14.7 mpg?US (16.0 L/100 km), decreasing to 8.6 mpg?US (27 L/100 km) when the air conditioning is on.[91][2]:?Table 3-1.2? For comparison, the earlier LLV (built 1987–94) and FFV (2000–01) have an average observed fuel consumption of 8.2 and 6.9 mpg?US (29 and 34 L/100 km), respectively.[2]:?Table G-1? The minuscule improvement in fuel economy was criticized by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in February 2022.[63]
The BEV variant has an estimated range of 70 mi (110 km) and a computed consumption of 1.34 kW?h/mi (25.2 mpg?e).[2]:?Table 3-1.3? Although using the air conditioner was not expected to affect the range, using the heater was expected to reduce range by up to half.[2]:?3–2,?3–3? Based on the typical distance driven, it was assumed that only 20% of the battery state of charge would be used each day for most NGDVs; analysis of USPS mail carrier routes demonstrated the all-electric variant's range could accommodate 95% of all routes.[2]:?3–2,?3–3?
Dimensions and capacities
A prototype shown at CES 2022 was 9.5 ft (2.9 m) tall, 19.6 ft (6.0 m) long, and 7 ft (2.1 m) wide.[5] The rear cargo opening measures 49.5 in (1,260 mm) wide and 72.5 in (1,840 mm) tall.[1]
The gross vehicle weight rating of the NGDV with an ICE, including payload, is 8,501 lb (3,856 kg),[2]:?Table 3-1.2? just one pound over the EPA's threshold to be considered a heavy-duty truck, allowing it to avoid more stringent pollution emissions and efficiency standards for light-duty trucks.[91] The estimated curb weight of the NGDV is 5,560 lb (2,520 kg) for the version with a conventional ICE and 6,670 lb (3,030 kg) for the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) variant. The payload of the vehicles also varies slightly, either 2,941 lb (1,334 kg) for the ICE or 2,207 lb (1,001 kg) for the BEV.[2]:?Tables 3-1.2 and 3-1.3?
Safety features
The NGDV is equipped with a second sliding curbside door that allows the mail carrier to enter the cargo area directly, allowing them to avoid having to stand in the street while loading and unloading the vehicle. As another measure for safety, the NGDV has an automatic parking brake that engages when the vehicle is shifted to park, when the driver leaves the seat, or when the ignition is shut off; it disengages when the vehicle is started and then shifted to drive or reverse, and the vehicle ignition is operable only when the transmission is in park or neutral.[17] The front and rear bumpers are equipped with proximity sensors that start beeping intermittently when objects are detected within 8 ft (2.4 m), and switch to continuous alarming when objects are within 6 in (150 mm).[17]
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So aircon barely affects range but heating halves it ...
Does America not know aircon can also be used for heating?
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I cannot fathom the stupidity of that giant nearly-vertical windshield.
100 or so years ago we, as a people, didn't really have a firm grasp on aerodynamics. One of my dad's first loves is airplanes, and he would read about them obsessively. He especially loved anything quirky or unusual. I remember once he showed me a particular plane that had a unique problem in that it couldn't go any faster than 50mph. Why? The windshield was completely vertical. It was a literal wall running into the wind. Had they just given it an, oh 30 degree slant it would have made all the difference in the world.
THERE IS NO REASON TO MAKE A WALL RUNNING INTO THE WIND. Whoever designed that portion of the car needs to be taken out back and shot.
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Morgan, in honor of your dad’s works I propose the nickname of WindHammer for this monstrosity.
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I suspect aero's are of minimal importance at the typical speeds they travel at. Speaking of traveling speeds why so poor mpg for the ICE version?
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I suspect aero's are of minimal importance at the typical speeds they travel at. Speaking of traveling speeds why so poor mpg for the ICE version?
If they're doing anything above 30mph it will have a measurable impact. Also, aside from being a bad idea, it's just hideous. It looks like me trying to draw a car at age 5.
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Yeah, my reply to you was going to be it's also fucking ugly. Is it a converted ICE truck? I don't see why it would need to have such a long hood if it was designed to be electric from the start.
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Not to mention that huge ass fucking windshield is going to be like a sun oven on the person sitting inside that thing.
As for the comment about AC being used to heat too. You mean heat pumps??? Burp. shush you,stop interjecting common sense.
I can see cost probably being the issue. A heat pump, that small, modified for DC, will cost a few grand after the unions get done with it. Now a piece of nichrome wire to turn red hot in front of a fan,a few dollars. Efficiency be damned. They'll buy the driver a 40 dollar coat and call it break even, then call it a gift so they can tax him on it at the end of the year.
Aaron
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The USPS local delivery trucks in my city have to drive about 8 miles at freeway speeds to get to my subdivision, where they do drive very slowly a few hundred yards at a time. Right now what they do is to park at one spot on a street, hand deliver mail to each mail box, first one side of a street and then walk across the street to deliver mail to the other side. Once they complete that short route, they drive further up the block to start the process all over again. That is perfect for an EV.
One thing that is going to cost a bundle, and take some time, is installing enough L2 stations at each post office to recharge the local fleet of postal trucks each night. I assume they will have to do that before the EV trucks will be able to operate within that service area. There are a lot of post offices in the U.S. that will need some electrical work before the new delivery vehicles arrive.
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Not to mention that huge ass fucking windshield is going to be like a sun oven on the person sitting inside that thing.
As for the comment about AC being used to heat too. You mean heat pumps??? Burp. shush you,stop interjecting common sense.
I can see cost probably being the issue. A heat pump, that small, modified for DC, will cost a few grand after the unions get done with it. Now a piece of nichrome wire to turn red hot in front of a fan,a few dollars. Efficiency be damned. They'll buy the driver a 40 dollar coat and call it break even, then call it a gift so they can tax him on it at the end of the year.
Aaron
The difference between aircon that cools and aircon that cools and also heats is a valve and some electronics so common it's probably more expensive to use a control board that doesn't support it.
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Pretty daft heating the whole cab if it's going to cane range like that ... give it heated seats and a steering wheel. Vastly more efficient and basically just as effective at maintaining comfort. (Do this myself in the car).
Cas :)
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Yeah heated seats and wheel are a much better idea. Heat the cabin and you just get that heat pouring out every time the doors are opened, which is a lot with a delivery vehicle. A lot of them even seem to drive around with the door open. Also if the partition to the rear compartment is open then you're vastly increasing the volume of air that needs to be heated.
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Not to mention that huge ass fucking windshield is going to be like a sun oven on the person sitting inside that thing.
Aaron
The difference between aircon that cools and aircon that cools and also heats is a valve and some electronics so common it's probably more expensive to use a control board that doesn't support it.
Absolutely correct but to be efficient takes a bit more work and design. Given a mail truck is going to be open most the time anyways, hand in and out window xxx times a day, it's pretty meaningless to have a mediocre heater in there. Your heat pump when it's 30 degrees out is not going to be very efficient with keeping the inside warm with the window open. Yes heatpumps operate both ways but when it gets to the extremes, unless the thing is very well engineered, like a Mitsubishi system for example, once you get below freezing, the efficiency of the thing drops to like 40 percent if you are lucky. for ability to do the job they are better off just heating up a piece of wire, quick and easy.
Another option but would add buxx to the price, does it have cooling for the inverter motor? If so, once those start producing, run that thru a loop for heat for the cabin, use a 3 way valve thats pilot operated.... again complexity, just put current thru a piece of wire, job done.
TheRan you mention a lot of them drive around with the door open. If you are referring to Big Brown, that is because many of those trucks have no AC in them, only a shitty fan which don't work most the time so thats the only way the driver can get some fresh air / cooling in there. In fact that was one of the major gripes they had in their impending strike earlier in the year, or was it last year, was AC for the delivery trucks because it was killing the drivers, especially in the warmer climates.
Aaron
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Our neighborhood may be a better locale for the EV. The distribution center is centrally located less than five miles from the farthest mailbox. The fastest they will go is 30 MPH for a mile. The rest of the time they will probably never get over 20 MPH. They will be servicing thousands of houses. They will need air conditioning a week or two a year at the most. The only time they would get out of their truck is to deliver a large package. We are probably an outlier for most of the country.
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The standard USPS jeep is the thing that needs to be electrified. Those travel an average of 25-35 miles per day at most, so a smaller battery with something like 25kWh (100 miles) would be ideal to run for 2 to 3 days. A 50A circuit could charge 5 vehicles/night. (If they also had 400W solar panels on the roof, that would cover maybe 5 to 10 miles/day.)
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Curt, I agree with most of what you said.
The panels, ehh not so much. The time the things would need to be charging, daytime, the trucks are NOT there charging, they are out in the field. You'd need batteries and all that other stuff, a lot of extra buxx. Like the idea and thinking though.
Range, if the truck is only travelling 25 mph or so, that range might potentially be an extra 50 percent or more. These things really don't sip a lot of juice at lower speeds, and if you put a strong regen on it, with all that stop and go, it'd be a lot more efficient.
Aaron
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Speaking of delivery trucks, I heard this morning on the CBS radio national news that a semi-truck carrying lithium batteries has overturned near the LA shipping port and has caught on fire, spreading toxic fumes across the access road to the port, shutting it down. Not a good look for truckers shipping lithium batteries. This is the third time that I have heard of a truck carrying lithium batteries tipping over and catching on fire on a freeway. What would cause a truck to tip over on a major highway? There is something weird going on. ??? If this keeps up, trucking companies are going to not accept jobs hauling lithium batteries and if they do it will not be covered by their liability insurance.
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Well, if they can't manage lithium, would you trust them with a truck full of petrol?
Cas :)
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Well, if they can't manage lithium, would you trust them with a truck full of petrol?
Cas :)
Not if is rolls over on to its side and then catches on fire. ::) That has happened many times before and if it is a gasoline tanker truck can really do some damage to a roadway and especially a freeway overpass.
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What would cause a truck to tip over on a major highway?
Loose freight can easily cause a truck to tip over on a major highway.
Well, if you are just tossing lithium batteries in the truck without securing them well, you deserve what you get. :(
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Well, if you are just tossing lithium batteries in the truck without securing them well, you deserve what you get. :(
Even if you secure them well, they're like a 1000 pounds each, so if you stack them high enough the truck might get real top heavy. It does seem like might benefit from some kind of steel/titanium "crash cage" around the corners and edges though, also in case of car crashes.
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Lith batteries are NOT just rattling around in the back of the truck! THe way the HAVE to package these things just to ship them!. Boxes inside boxes, cushioning all around them. Solid cages for the bigger batteries, they pack them like they pack turbine parts for generators and stuff. VERY carefuly. A roll over, so the box tips over, this should NOT compromise the load. Even if it was not tied down and rolled across the deck of the truck the box would take the brunt not the contents.
No, something else is going wrong here. Just like the gas pipeline explosions all over the country that nobody hears about. Just like the oil refinery fires all over the country that make the news cycle for about an hour. Just like the power plant sabotage events that are happening ALL the time, that nobody hears about. Just like the food manucacturing plants and chicken farms, burning down one right after the other that nobody hears about, etc etc.
But hey, America's got it's weed and wifi man, everythings cool.
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I'm imagining a stack of large battery packs like the ones in my Bolt EV. They weigh 1000 lb each and are protected by pathetic thin sheet metal. They can be damaged by hitting a speed bump too fast. If a truck with a stack of those rolls over, all bets are off.
Just today I got an explosion when I dropped a 12-pack of Pepsi.
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I saw an article in my newspaper a couple of weeks ago that the contractor building the USPS EV delivery trucks is way behind schedule delivering them. The article said that they had only delivered less than 100 to the Postal Service so far and are manufacturing just 1 vehicle a day, instead the 80 a day that had been planned. So much for that ambitious plan. Naturally, the slow production was blamed on parts supply problems. Another expensive government EV boondoggle going nowhere fast. ::)
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I guarantee it's all union shops too, and you KNOW those dirt bags are not putting in a good days work. You won't get them to speed up any either. This is all by design though, because NOW to meet demands they are all going to have to work overtime at 1.5 x normal pay. It's a win win for everyone except the taxpayer.
Aaron
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I can't take anymore of these scab attacks from Aaron. I grew up in a union family and my father and his co-workers were not scum. The people restoring power after storms and floods are not dirtbags. The firefighters and police protecting us are not dirtbags.
Aaron, your knowledge of the EV world is truly enlightening to me. You add a lot to this forum. Knock off the anti-union rants and stick to EVs.
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Ive put up with Union shops for years as well. When you see people purposely stonewalling and stalling on the job, all for a fatter pay check, it gets old real fast.
We don't work on straight time.... straight from the union president's mouth. endorsed by the stewards.
you want to know why overseas is killing us in auto manufacturing, because UNION jobs just cost too much for too little.
but I guess when you blow a dog whistle, the dog howls every time. Tell me it's NOT a union shop?
Aaron
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It's not a Union Shop.
While the trucks are built by Oshkosh Defense, a UAW Shop in it's Wisconsin namesake city, they fill some contracts elsewhere. The USPS EV Trucks are made in the Oshkosh Defense plant in Spartanburg, SC that is not unionized.
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This is probably no big surprise. The USPS electric trucks contract is likely to be canceled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEHuVa_CG4Q
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they might actually work in this use case but as usual the contract is probably corrupt as hell.
shame that somrthing that might actually work, gets shut down due to malfeasance
aaron
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3:24 defective trucks. Since this is electric vehicles if someone finds a video about the defects in the 70 something she says have been delivered I will watch it.
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qaah the door isnt perfectly aligned
this dont fit perfectly
the paint is not perfectly blue
they can call literally anything a defect electric or not
aaron
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to be honest having worked in defense and seeing the contract game this is about par.
contractor A B and C bid on a job.
A lowballs it a bit gets the job. about half way thru says sorry we cant finish in time bla bla bla
now the contract gets handed to B at their original bid price plus 10 percent it they can get it done.
SURE no problem. B then sub contracts out A's workforce to work for them for 'continuity' and pays A hefty$$ for the workers.
A gets a black mark on their record for the failure for the non completion. which is suppose to hurt them in future bids.
3 months later another ship goes into the maintenance cycle and its B's turn in the barrel, with C saving the day. Now B has a black mark, few more months, C takes the hot seat and A saved the day.
now they all have a black mark meaning it don't mean shit. they are the only players in the game, its them or no fixie shippy.
most of them have almost nobody as a full time employee, the labor force just walks over to the building of who has the current contract.
you take the corruption or you get nothing. vinny's deal can't be refused. if your navy is in drydock it's not much of a navy is it?
I would assume the post office and many services are the same way.
welcome to government contracting. have a nice day.
aaron
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My thought is that it wasn't such a good idea to ask a major military equipment manufacturer to build a commercial electric vehicle when they had no experience doing so. Just because you can build mine-resistant military trucks doesn't mean you also have the expertise to build a USPS-driver-resistant electric delivery vehicle. ???
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agree richard.
the old vehicles were like refitted jeeps, this one looks more like a smaller delivery. why not ask them first or rivian who is also a love child of theirs.
we need an armored personnel carrier, but without the armor, and for only one person.... can you do that? NNNNnnnnno.... for 3 billion dollaes NooooooWWWW were talking...
aaron