ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DesignerDan on September 12, 2024, 08:49:50 PM
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It’s getting to be around that time of year again. Any last minute predictions or rumors about the 2025 line up?
My friend and I who both own the 2021 SR/S said that we need to see a massive battery upgrade this year for us to upgrade and not sell our bikes. They are only getting about 52 miles highway.
I remember back in 2013 Zero’s website said they estimate the battery to last 450k miles. Well almost a decade later, the 2021 batteries can’t even make it past 30k miles without degrading below 80% of their original capacity.
False Advertising. Simple as that.
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Yep my 2021 has been in the shop up in Tampa FL trying to get a new battery for over a month now and I still don't think zero approved it yet. If they don't I am not getting another zero. 25k miles and 3 years old and I'm barely getting 52 miles highway to go see my dad. I'll get home at like 2% and it's only going to get worse. To the point where I can even ride it to the next town.
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Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
I get 125 miles out of the new battery and it's been great ever since, with the caveat that they have nerfed 12kW charging (software to blame in this instance I think).
I too won't be looking to upgrade now until there's a 50% capacity increase, or a 100% charging rate increase, whichever comes sooner.
If they know what's good for them though they'll do something about that fecking belt drive.
Cas :)
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52 miles? That’s hideous. My 2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh squeaked out 77 miles, all but 3 of those highway. Granted, it turned itself off 3 times and I had to coast down the last hill unpowered, but it made it. I sold my SS9 13.4 because I could never count on more than 50-55 highway miles no matter what I did to the aerodynamics or gearing.
Zero does seem to have a significant range advantage for a given battery size over Energica. People have been reporting 100+ mile highway on the 17.3 SR/S, which is roughly what 21.5 kWh EVA Ribelles and SS9’s have been getting. Despite the company’s shenanigans with dud 14.4 packs, mismatched-voltage power tanks, and firmware with magic charging, I’d still consider a DSR/X if they ever add DCFC. One of these days, Zero is just going to have to rip the band-aid off and raise the pack voltage above 200 volts. The longer they wait, the more it’s going to hurt.
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52 miles? That’s hideous. My 2017 Zero SR 13.0 kWh squeaked out 77 miles, all but 3 of those highway. Granted, it turned itself off 3 times and I had to coast down the last hill unpowered, but it made it. I sold my SS9 13.4 because I could never count on more than 50-55 highway miles no matter what I did to the aerodynamics or gearing.
Zero does seem to have a significant range advantage for a given battery size over Energica. People have been reporting 100+ mile highway on the 17.3 SR/S, which is roughly what 21.5 kWh EVA Ribelles and SS9’s have been getting. Despite the company’s shenanigans with dud 14.4 packs, mismatched-voltage power tanks, and firmware with magic charging, I’d still consider a DSR/X if they ever add DCFC. One of these days, Zero is just going to have to rip the band-aid off and raise the pack voltage above 200 volts. The longer they wait, the more it’s going to hurt.
Since Zero can charge at 13.2 KW (with the extra charger) IMO, DCFC is NOT much of an issue as long as you can find the AC charge stations to support it.
On a very hot day, my Energicas will only charge at around 11KW max on a DCFC. 20 KW on a cooler day.
-Don- Reno, NV
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52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.
I would not expect a massive battery bump because they just had a massive battery bump with the BCB packs using the P73 cells. Unless they decide Farasis' new P84 cells are a good fit and meet their requirements I don't see a battery bump for a couple years. But hey I could be wrong. That would make it jump from a 146Ah pack to a 168Ah pack which would bump the 17.3 figure closer to 19.6kWh. Marketing numbers of course.
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52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.
I would not expect a massive battery bump because they just had a massive battery bump with the BCB packs using the P73 cells. Unless they decide Farasis' new P84 cells are a good fit and meet their requirements I don't see a battery bump for a couple years. But hey I could be wrong. That would make it jump from a 146Ah pack to a 168Ah pack which would bump the 17.3 figure closer to 19.6kWh. Marketing numbers of course.
The problem with this is I owned a 2013 S that crapped out after after 40k miles. Zero said it was a battery defect and replaced the battery with a 2015 ZF 12.6 under the battery replacement program. Then after another 40k miles, the battery crapped out again. Zero again blamed battery defects. I foolishly thought that the 2021 ZF 14.4 would actually work the way it’s supposed to and so I bought the SR/S and here we are again, starting to crap out at 30k miles and Zero yet again blames battery defects. I have zero (no pun intended) faith that their 2022+ ZF 17.3 will be any different.
When will Zero grow up and admit to their customers that they have no idea how to make a battery that preforms at the levels that they always claim?
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Well it's, *checks watch* 2024 and the corporate culture of today is pretty abysmal so.... never?
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Since Zero can charge at 13.2 KW (with the extra charger) IMO, DCFC is NOT much of an issue as long as you can find the AC charge stations to support it.
On a very hot day, my Energicas will only charge at around 11KW max on a DCFC. 20 KW on a cooler day.
-Don- Reno, NV
That was also my experience with charging my SS9. I saw 9 kW on hot days pretty regularly, and as low as 6 kW on rare occasions. But to me that just means they need better cooling for the pack. I don’t consider it an inherent flaw of DCFC over AC charging. I also never got anywhere near the rated amount on my ‘17 SR with 2.5 kW charge tank, 1.3 kW OBC, and 3.3 kW ElCon charger on hot days. Often the combined charging rate was around 4.4 kW. Not sure whether that was because the pack was getting too hot or the chargers themselves. I couldn’t touch the ElCon with my bare hands for a good 10 minutes after charging, so I suspect the latter.
20+ kW charging should really be considered a minimum goal, and the high-end electric OEMs should be striving for something more like 50 peak, 30+ kW average over the session. That would bring 20->80% charge sessions down to 20 mins or so, and would convince a lot more people to try electric motorcycles. Now granted, 50 kW peak might only be achievable with liquid cooling of the pack, but I think sustained 20 kW can be achieved by just making pack cooling a higher priority in the design. More airflow and heat transfer to parts like the AC charger that can dissipate it more easily and don’t get used during riding.
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Think of it less about kW output and more about C rating. I think 3C is the magic number to shoot for, and that will definitely require active cooling.
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Most manufacturers don't like to go much above the 1C rate. Even Energica with its massive 75 Amp charge, that's only pushing a bit over 1C. They do this for longevity purposes.
Active cooling, now you are adding a bit of a price hike to the bike, heavier, and more fluids to have to monitor /babysit. I wonder if anyone did any kind of research about how much it would cost to put an active cooling on a bike. A bike like energica could tie it in with their existing cooling system for the inverter/motor, but that'd be a bit of work there, those battery boxes are packed TIGHT!! I can't really see where they'd be any room for liquid to trickle thru. That's another problem, you can't just run water over the cells / pouches, everything has to be TIGHT, both watertight and joined, so there is nothing loose to vibrate in there.
supposedly there is new tech 'right around the corner' that will be a game changer..so far, crickets.
Aaron
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Even just a water jacket on the outside running over some of the cooling fins already existing on the battery pack (not all of them, you still want some air cooling when riding the bike) would be an improvement for charging where you're relying on convection instead of force airflow. The battery pack is already designed to fairly decently transfer heat from the cells to the housing. You could even DIY your own solution using some PC watercooling supplies and the biggest waterblocks you can find if there's a suitably flat areas on the casing to attach them. The thought had crossed my mind for doing the same with the air cooled motor on the gen 2 bikes but there's not much room between it and the swingarm.
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Get some usb powered or 12 volt powered computer fans and velcro them to the case, power is right there. I have a little box fan I shove up there when Iam fast charging .. at least until I build something a bit better /more airflow
aaron
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That was also my experience with charging my SS9. I saw 9 kW on hot days pretty regularly, and as low as 6 kW on rare occasions. But to me that just means they need better cooling for the pack. I don’t consider it an inherent flaw of DCFC over AC charging. I also never got anywhere near the rated amount on my ‘17 SR with 2.5 kW charge tank, 1.3 kW OBC, and 3.3 kW ElCon charger on hot days. Often the combined charging rate was around 4.4 kW. Not sure whether that was because the pack was getting too hot or the chargers themselves. I couldn’t touch the ElCon with my bare hands for a good 10 minutes after charging, so I suspect the latter.
20+ kW charging should really be considered a minimum goal, and the high-end electric OEMs should be striving for something more like 50 peak, 30+ kW average over the session. That would bring 20->80% charge sessions down to 20 mins or so, and would convince a lot more people to try electric motorcycles. Now granted, 50 kW peak might only be achievable with liquid cooling of the pack, but I think sustained 20 kW can be achieved by just making pack cooling a higher priority in the design. More airflow and heat transfer to parts like the AC charger that can dissipate it more easily and don’t get used during riding.
At least when temperatures are moderate, look at the wattage on the charge station, NOT on the bike. The voltage drops on the bike (load) side, reducing the wattage at the same current (the current is the same on each end of the cable, unlike the voltage). IOW, the AC voltage to the bike's charger (or the battery in the case of a DCFC) will be a hair less than the wattage supplied. Consider it normal with your 3.3 KW plus 1.3KW=4.4KW instead of 4.6KW.
To get the full wattage the charge station would have to raise its voltage a little so you can get the full charge voltage on the bike's charger (AC) input or at the battery (DCFC). Or have a MUCH thicker cable with less loss (which will increase both the current as well as the voltage at the load end).
IOW, you're just seeing the normal voltage drop of the charging cable.
The difference is negligible anyway. Seconds of difference in charge times.
But like you say, what would make a big difference is battery cooling. While they figured out how to do this in cars, motorcycles probably don't have the room--but Energica has cooling for the inverter, just not the battery. And the battery would be more difficult to cool because even 90° F (32.2C) is hot for an EV battery. Normal EV battery temps are from 26 to 35°C (68 to 86°F). The center of that range to try for will be 77¯F (30.5 °C).
Better yet will be if somebody invents a battery with as many KWHs for its size and weight that has a much wider temperature spec. and doesn't require heating and cooling. But since EV cars can deal with this in other ways, I doubt if there is much hurry to take care of such issues on electric motorcycles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The previous-gen Energicas charged over 2C, but that was with the old split-channel case that allowed airflow during riding to quickly cool the core of the pack off. That's part of the main reasons I still have a 2018 model. When Energica effectively doubled their pack capacity they also got rid of that cooling channel which doesn't impact the vast majority of owners, but to us multiple charge back-to-back riders it was a serious factor.
The pack with the best thermal management available right now I think has to be the LiveWire One. It's got those nice RAM scoops the funnel air to the core of the pack, the large fins acting as heat sinks, and every cell in contact with part of the battery case that has airflow. I really think they could have been a LOT more aggressive with their charging algorithm. It goes up to 1.5C at the bottom 0-->40% of the charge cycle, but then tapers off to boring numbers. But you can watch the pack cool off very quickly during the followup ride. I'm curious to see if and when they give the pack a refresh; I think it's time.
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The previous-gen Energicas charged over 2C, but that was with the old split-channel case that allowed airflow during riding to quickly cool the core of the pack off. That's part of the main reasons I still have a 2018 model. When Energica effectively doubled their pack capacity they also got rid of that cooling channel which doesn't impact the vast majority of owners, but to us multiple charge back-to-back riders it was a serious factor.
The pack with the best thermal management available right now I think has to be the LiveWire One. It's got those nice RAM scoops the funnel air to the core of the pack, the large fins acting as heat sinks, and every cell in contact with part of the battery case that has airflow. I really think they could have been a LOT more aggressive with their charging algorithm. It goes up to 1.5C at the bottom 0-->40% of the charge cycle, but then tapers off to boring numbers. But you can watch the pack cool off very quickly during the followup ride. I'm curious to see if and when they give the pack a refresh; I think it's time.
Yeah, my 2020 SS9- has the better cooling system. But TBH, I never noticed any difference when riding or charging. The battery temp light is yellow just as often, lowering the charge rate just as much as does my Experia.
While that L-W has a great battery system (for a motorcycle) it is my least favorite electric motorcycle of them all. No reverse, no Level two charging, no decent luggage available, etc.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm just talking purely from a pack's thermal-management standpoint. The LW1's pack was designed with a lot of thought, care, and planning.
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I'm just talking purely from a pack's thermal-management standpoint. The LW1's pack was designed with a lot of thought, care, and planning.
Agreed. But perhaps a little too much planning for reliability. IIRC, it charges rather slowly on a DCFC even at perfect temps. And is ridiculous to only have 1.4 KW (or whatever it is) for AC input charging.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I agree that they were too conservative on the algorithm. Just my opinion. But the pack does do 1.5C for nearly 40% of its charge session arguably making it the highest current production model C rate on today's market.
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For 2025 I don't expect much in terms of changes. What I would expect is a "mid-range" Zero motorcycle. Basically a new Gen2. FX has too small battery to be tempting for me and Gen3 is too big and heavy. There is also a gap in price between these that I'd like to see filled.
The main problem for me with Zero is their design philosophy. Their cypher store was IMHO a big failure. If the bike is equipped with heated grips I want to be able to use them. If it is more cost effective to equip all bikes with heated grips, rather than have it as an option, it should lower the price of bikes and make them more valuable in the future without me having to pay extra in the Cypher store. Same goes for "extra capacity", "faster charge" and most of the other "options" in the Cypher store.
It seems they are no longer a manufacturer that is design driven to provide advanced technical solutions to be a leader, but beancounter driven design that looks everywhere for some pennies at cost of quality and customer satisfaction. Sadly none of the other manufacturers seems to be any better.
Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
Do you have link to the acknowledgement, that I can show to the dealer to get my battery replaced?
Not that I have battery issues. My 2018 SR with 25000 miles is a daily rider and has easy 100 mile range with 60% highway use. But I would not say no to free replacement battery. :)
Reading the previous comments (many ride until battery is completely flat) it seems many are not aware how usage of batteries affects battery life (how long the battery will last, as opposed to how long the charge lasts). In short, a lithium-ion battery should be kept between 20% and 80% state of charge to maximize its lifespan. Previous owner of my bike gave me the attached graph, and I have tried as much as I can to keep state of charge between 20 and 80 percent. Only charge to 100% right before a ride. My bike has plenty of range from a six year old battery.
Excerpts from Zero owners manual.
"If the power pack is fully discharged, it must be charged within 24 hours to prevent damage to the power pack."
"your power pack will benefit from not being charged to 100% unnecessarily."
"CAUTION: Never store your motorcycle at a state of charge less than 30%"
Personally I'd make the BMS log all charging statuses and if (for example) charge goes below 30% show a notice on the dashboard. "Battery warranty will be void if battery is not charged to over 30% within X hours." Then I'd have a warranty status LED on the battery. It would show green when the battery is in warranty and red when misuse has damaged the battery.
supposedly there is new tech 'right around the corner' that will be a game changer..so far, crickets.
There is always a new tech right around the corner. ;D
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My prediction, as a long-time Zero customer, is that Zero will not make any big improvements to their 2025 lineup, other than to their bikes' colors and maybe graphics. Right now the general motorcycle market sucks, money is tight and financing a vehicle is expensive. Zero tends to be very conservative and they don't spend a penny that they don't have to. My guess is that most of their efforts will be focused on their manufacturing operations in the Philippians and improving their dealer and distribution networks around the world, especially in Southeast Asia. Although that would be a tough row to hoe being so close to China and its cheap and experienced EV manufacturers.
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Zero's main problem really is price. Or specifically value - their bikes aren't worth what they cost, and this is reflected in their eye-watering first year depreciation. So the Philippines manufacturing might help them shave a couple of grand off of the price there.
Unfortunately I don't have hard evidence of the 14.4 battery issue other than discussion between myself and my dealer, with the dealer telling me matter-of-factly that every single bike they sold between 2019-2022 has come back in and Zero has quietly acknowledged and replaced every single battery so far.
Cas :)
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…….
Unfortunately I don't have hard evidence of the 14.4 battery issue other than discussion between myself and my dealer, with the dealer telling me matter-of-factly that every single bike they sold between 2019-2022 has come back in and Zero has quietly acknowledged and replaced every single battery so far.
Cas :)
My 2016 DSR had its original battery replaced 7-7-21 with a new 14.4 & that was 33k trouble free miles ago (Note that some afterwards I started limiting my SOC levels (both high & low).
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Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
I get 125 miles out of the new battery and it's been great ever since, with the caveat that they have nerfed 12kW charging (software to blame in this instance I think).
I too won't be looking to upgrade now until there's a 50% capacity increase, or a 100% charging rate increase, whichever comes sooner.
If they know what's good for them though they'll do something about that fecking belt drive.
Cas :)
I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.
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They're full o' shit then. The point about magic charge is that the battery is actually operating at 50% capacity and will leave you stranded at the side of the road, and then while you wait for the AA to turn up it will have miraculously recharged itself.
Something something "voltage crimp".
Cas :)
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I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace the battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.
That is only a 10% loss of range between 15 & 25%. And that ten % returns. They need to see at least a 20.01% loss to replace the battery under warranty.
Nevertheless, your battery has a problem. Just that problem is not covered under warranty until it gets worse. And it probably will. It happened on my Zero DS but it was so bad they could not deny a warranty claim after some time, but I made sure it was before the end of the warranty before I brought the bike into the shop.
They get the battery info from the bike's log. They send that indo to Zero and they either approve or do not approve the replacement 100% based on that.
Mine was approved, yours was not because of the info on the bike's log. There is nothing to complain about. They are going by the written words of the warranty.
You just want it to get a lot worse before your five-year battery warranty expires. It was around three years old when mine showed obvious problems. Which got a lot worse over the next several months.
BTW, it worked out very well for me. They junked my 6.5 KWH battery and they installed a 7.2 KWH battery at no cost to me.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I contacted Zero regarding my 2020 DSR showing magic charge (from 15% to 25%) and they refused to replace the battery, they say it is over 80% capacity.
That is only a 10% loss of range between 15 & 25%. And that ten % returns. They need to see at least a 20.01% loss to replace the battery under warranty.
Nevertheless, your battery has a problem. Just that problem is not covered under warranty until it gets worse.
Just because the battery doesn't have a great enough reduction in capacity doesn't mean it's not covered by the warranty, that's not the only term to it. The battery is still defective.
Zero warrants that all factory manufactured 2021 Zero
Motorcycles are free from defects in material and workmanship
during the period of this Limited Warranty.
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Zero warrants that all factory manufactured 2021 ZeroMotorcycles are free from defects in material and workmanship
during the period of this Limited Warranty.
The problem there is they (Zero) gets to define what a "defect" is.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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If someone took them to court I don't think they would. A battery isn't supposed to do that, and they don't do it fresh from the factory.
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No, they'd lose in court, which is why they have wisely replaced all of them here in the UK without question.
A good thing they did or Zero would never sell another bike to me again, nor anyone I talked to.
Cas :)
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52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.
Doesn't that depend on how fast you're going? "Highway" covers a lot of ground, from 50-60mph to open expressways 80-90mph.
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Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
The exception doesn't make the rule, but to give them a little good press here I have 58k miles on a 2020 SRS with the original battery, and the capacity is still near new. I don't notice any difference at all except as I've said elsewhere, trying to keep at a constant pace of greater than 90mph will cause it to heat and slow after about 20 minutes.
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52 highway miles on an SR/S means there is a massive problem with your battery and you should probably go through the warranty process.
Doesn't that depend on how fast you're going? "Highway" covers a lot of ground, from 50-60mph to open expressways 80-90mph.
Last night I got less than 50 miles with the cruise control set to 68mph. I also have the magic charging problem which isn’t how it’s supposed to work.
Everyone expects a battery with a 100k mile / 5 year warranty to last either 100k miles or 5 years. The reality is after 30-40k miles it has to be replaced and then after another 30-40k miles it has to be replaced again and you didn’t even make it to 100k miles.
I participated in the Zero circle jerk for over a decade but enough is enough.
WHERE IS THE BATTERY THAT WE ALL PAID FOR!?
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Most people don't ride their Zeros enough to go over 50k miles. That being said I do know of owners successfully over 100k miles on their original packs. There's just not a ton of data for that level of pack use because the majority of Zero owners primarily use it as a 30-40 mile commuter and it doesn't rack up the miles much that way. And yeah, what you're going through sucks and you should try the warranty process. The new P73 cells appear to be much more stable. Good luck.
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Most people don't ride their Zeros enough to go over 50k miles. That being said I do know of owners successfully over 100k miles on their original packs. There's just not a ton of data for that level of pack use because the majority of Zero owners primarily use it as a 30-40 mile commuter and it doesn't rack up the miles much that way. And yeah, what you're going through sucks and you should try the warranty process. The new P73 cells appear to be much more stable. Good luck.
Which year did they start using the P73?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Whenever the 17.3 came out.
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Zero have acknowledged the fault with pre-22 bikes 14.4 batteries. Every single one of them is a dud. Get them replaced.
I asked about this in another thread, but you seem to have some background knowledge on this. Do you have any more info before I contact a dealer in the UK about my 2021 SR/F that gives an estimate of 68 miles on a full charge?
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I got my bike (ex demonstrator) from Davant Bikes down in Torquay, who are a proper Zero dealer. It was in and out of their workshop for months getting sorted under warranty for other issues, and eventually I realised that the battery was misbehaving after reading about it here and on Facebook. Here's what they said by email:
Sounds like what we call a battery crimp issue, its known and resolved by replacing the battery with a 2022+ BCB type, this will be 14.4kw unlocked to 15.6kw, and is a way better battery all around.
We will need your motorcycle back here for some data pull, this will include logs + other data stats, juts to prove to Zero that this motorcycle is now due a battery change.
Once a case has been opened, batteries are take a few months to be issued.
and while I was there talking to the tech he said that every single one they'd sold in 2019 and 2020 had been back for a warranty battery eventually and Zero were just getting on and doing it instead of kicking up a fuss.
Cas :)
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Just what I was after. Thanks.
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In addition to a battery that actually works, I would like to see Zero incorporate a lockable push button for the storage compartment. I made one myself I couldn’t imagine using my bike without it:
https://youtu.be/flno2wFReyc?si=QFkfwbbzfxZ5QHP-
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All Zero owners and others on their email list should have gotten news today of a big announcement at EICMA in 19 days from now on the 2025 models. Can't wait to hear what it is.
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CCS? NACS?
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That is news to me. I thought I was on their email list, but maybe no longer. ???
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Can't wait to hear what it is.
My money's on a "bold new colour scheme" - same as most years. :D
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Can't wait to hear what it is.
My money's on a "bold new colour scheme" - same as most years. :D
The way things are going right now in the economy and the high-end electric motorcycle market, maybe that is all that they can afford to do. ???
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Well they're saying they're raising the bar even higher than last year. I didn't get the email to check exactly what they announced last year but the big things I remember were the gen 3 DS and DSR as well as the S, scrapping the gen 2 models. So this year there has to be a new model or two, or some pretty significant changes. I'm wondering if the FX and FXE will finally get an overhaul using the newer battery cells and perhaps an improved motor, and maybe even better charging. I wouldn't put any money on them moving to DC charging however they're seriously falling behind compared to all the other upper tier brands.
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CCS? NACS?
Unless they go DCFC, is NACS really necessary at this point? You can't use Tesla Superchargers unless you have DCFC. You can use Tesla destination chargers with an adapter. And if they go NACS without going DCFC then in the USA you would need to carry an adapter if you wanted to use any of the thousands of J1772 level 2 plugs out in the wild.
Can't wait to hear what it is.
My money's on a "bold new colour scheme" - same as most years. :D
Obviously it has to be much more than that.
Can't wait to hear what it is.
My money's on a "bold new colour scheme" - same as most years. :D
The way things are going right now in the economy and the high-end electric motorcycle market, maybe that is all that they can afford to do. ???
People complain about Zero being high end but just yesterday I was looking at a US dealer website that still showed Energica and realized that the least expensive Energica had an MSRP of about $23,000. That is the US MSRP of the most expensive Zero.
Well they're saying they're raising the bar even higher than last year. I didn't get the email to check exactly what they announced last year but the big things I remember were the gen 3 DS and DSR as well as the S, scrapping the gen 2 models. So this year there has to be a new model or two, or some pretty significant changes. I'm wondering if the FX and FXE will finally get an overhaul using the newer battery cells and perhaps an improved motor, and maybe even better charging. I wouldn't put any money on them moving to DC charging however they're seriously falling behind compared to all the other upper tier brands.
Perhaps a lower end model built in Asia. It certainly would be welcome in the market.
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I highly doubt that, the whole "made in the USA" is a big thing for them. And they couldn't really go much more low end while saving enough money and still be able to sell it. The biggest way to save money is cutting battery capacity and people already complain about range and they got rid of the 3.6kW/h modular models and 7.2kW/h S and DS. While everyone likes to complain about the price of electric bikes they also want more from companies, not less. More power, more range, faster charging. That leaves the low end relegated to the newcomers like Super Soco, Surron, Maeving and RGNT, VMOTO, etc.
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I highly doubt that, the whole "made in the USA" is a big thing for them. And they couldn't really go much more low end while saving enough money and still be able to sell it. The biggest way to save money is cutting battery capacity and people already complain about range and they got rid of the 3.6kW/h modular models and 7.2kW/h S and DS. While everyone likes to complain about the price of electric bikes they also want more from companies, not less. More power, more range, faster charging. That leaves the low end relegated to the newcomers like Super Soco, Surron, Maeving and RGNT, VMOTO, etc.
If Ryvid can sell a "California built" street legal motorcycle for $6k MSRP and CSC can sell the R1XE for $8500 (now discounted to $7000 but out of stock), then Zero should be able to have something made in Asia for around $7000 to $8000.
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They probably could, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something they'd do. I can't imagine them bringing out a new bike and it's their first one in over a decade not to have an American flag and "Made in California" written on it, and even less range than an FXE. It would be like if Harley came out with a Chinese made 300cc single cylinder, they could and it would be competitive with the like of the MT-03 and Duke 390 but it's not what they do and no one would buy it, because it's not what you go to Harley for.
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They probably could, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something they'd do. I can't imagine them bringing out a new bike and it's their first one in over a decade not to have an American flag and "Made in California" written on it, and even less range than an FXE. It would be like if Harley came out with a Chinese made 300cc single cylinder, they could and it would be competitive with the like of the MT-03 and Duke 390 but it's not what they do and no one would buy it, because it's not what you go to Harley for.
Or if H-D came out with Indian-manufactured 500cc and 750cc V-twins and tried to sell them in the U.S. Which they did do. And where are those bikes now? ::) Now that Energica is apparently out of the expensive performance market, my guess is that Zero will double-down on that segment and keep building whatever makes the more profit for them. As always, the higher the price, the more profit per unit, which is what you need to stay in business when sales are relatively minimal.
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It’s a little early for another Farasis cell density bump, but if they upped the top bikes to ~19 kWh nominal and a new 4+ kWh power tank*, they could advertise similar range to the Experia. If they could include a Tesla Destination Charger jack and bump the premium charge rate to 9 kW or so, then you could have excellent range and decent charging speed without a charge tank. The charger would have to throttle itself to 6.6 kW when connected to a J-plug in the US to avoid tripping breakers, though.
I don’t expect them to announce any such things for a while, mind you, it would just be nice if that’s the kind of thing they had in mind.
*They would have to solve the issue of increased cell height that MVetter pointed out somewhere on this forum.
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It’s a little early for another Farasis cell density bump, but if they upped the top bikes to ~19 kWh nominal and a new 4+ kWh power tank*, they could advertise similar range to the Experia. If they could include a Tesla Destination Charger jack and bump the premium charge rate to 9 kW or so, then you could have excellent range and decent charging speed without a charge tank. The charger would have to throttle itself to 6.6 kW when connected to a J-plug in the US to avoid tripping breakers, though.
I don’t expect them to announce any such things for a while, mind you, it would just be nice if that’s the kind of thing they had in mind.
*They would have to solve the issue of increased cell height that MVetter pointed out somewhere on this forum.
So far, I have found AC input charging to be more useful than DCFC. I ride my Zero DSR/x more than my Experia because of that. But it depends on where am going. IMO, better charging is more important than range. Reduce the range but give me 20 KW DCFC and 12 KW AC charging in the same bike and that will be the perfect electric motorcycle for me.
-Don- Cinder Hills, Coconino Forest, AZ (RV trip with my Zero DS--and can charge here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/319626), just a few miles away)
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I highly doubt that, the whole "made in the USA" is a big thing for them.
They're made in the Philippines now though aren't they?
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So far, I have found AC input charging to be more useful than DCFC. I ride my Zero DSR/x more than my Experia because of that. But it depends on where am going. IMO, better charging is more important than range. Reduce the range but give me 20 KW DCFC and 12 KW AC charging in the same bike and that will be the perfect electric motorcycle for me.
-Don- Cinder Hills, Coconino Forest, AZ (RV trip with my Zero DS--and can charge here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/319626), just a few miles away)
I wish we could combine the benefits of L2 AC and DCFC. When I gave up my SS9, I was often frustrated by DC charge stations that were on the fritz with the remaining ones occupied or that wouldn’t talk to my bike. When I had my Zero, Chargepoint AC stations were always very reliable and often very cheap or free, but the thing that AC lacks is a handshake to tell a vehicle not to exceed a given number of amps, so it’s hard to get a high charge rate and not trip the breaker. I could never consistently maintain the advertised charge rate on either one, especially DC on my Energica.
I think there does come a point when you have so much range you don’t need fast charging because you want to take a nice long lunch break and give your body a rest. Anything over 200 miles and I would appreciate being forced to stop for a good long while. I fuel up and keep riding on my FJR because I just want to get there, but it would actually be nice if I didn’t have that option.
Out of curiosity, what kind of range have you been getting with that DSR/X? I know the early guesstimates were somewhere around 85 miles highway with the 17.3 pack, but I also know that Zero’s can significantly exceed their typical mileage if ridden carefully.
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I highly doubt that, the whole "made in the USA" is a big thing for them.
They're made in the Philippines now though aren't they?
The FX series are still made in Scotts Valley, CA at the headquarters. You can tell by the VIN of new ones posted for sale on Cycle Trader. If the VIN starts with 538 then it is a US built bike. If the VIN starts with PAG, then it is built in the Philippines by IMI. Virtually every major motorcycle manufacturer has bikes built somewhere in Asia these days. Even all the Japanese companies don't just build their bikes in Japan anymore.
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I wish we could combine the benefits of L2 AC and DCFC. When I gave up my SS9, I was often frustrated by DC charge stations that were on the fritz with the remaining ones occupied or that wouldn’t talk to my bike. When I had my Zero, Chargepoint AC stations were always very reliable and often very cheap or free, but the thing that AC lacks is a handshake to tell a vehicle not to exceed a given number of amps, so it’s hard to get a high charge rate and not trip the breaker. I could never consistently maintain the advertised charge rate on either one, especially DC on my Energica.
I think there does come a point when you have so much range you don’t need fast charging because you want to take a nice long lunch break and give your body a rest. Anything over 200 miles and I would appreciate being forced to stop for a good long while. I fuel up and keep riding on my FJR because I just want to get there, but it would actually be nice if I didn’t have that option.
Out of curiosity, what kind of range have you been getting with that DSR/X? I know the early guesstimates were somewhere around 85 miles highway with the 17.3 pack, but I also know that Zero’s can significantly exceed their typical mileage if ridden carefully.
There is a "handshake" on J-1772. It's called the pilot signal. Also is on Tesla Destination (AC) charge stations. What the pilot signal does (originates in the AC charge station) is to tell the vehicle's EV charger to lower its power to whatever the charge station can handle. So I do not understand why you would ever have such an issue on a stock bike. Me, OTOH, when I charge using external chargers on my 2017 Zeros, it ignores the pilot signal so I adjust my power manually. I find I can usually go just a little above the rated capacity of the machine before there is an issue.
On any of my bikes, I average 7.0 miles per useable KWH of the battery, I think the Experia does a little better than this, I assume better aerodynamics.
On the Zero DSR/X, I average 1 mile per SOC%. Mixed riding, but mostly freeway. So if I charge to 110%, I get 110 miles of range. Perahaps 160 miles on the Experia. Both have enough range, IMO.
-Don- Flagstaff, AZ
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Thanks Don!
I stand corrected on the pilot signal. My ‘17 SR with the 3.3 kW ElCon external charger could trip breakers if I wasn’t careful. Good to know that is not a concern for factory chargers.
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Thanks Don!
I stand corrected on the pilot signal. My ‘17 SR with the 3.3 kW ElCon external charger could trip breakers if I wasn’t careful. Good to know that is not a concern for factory chargers.
I have a way to use my Elcons only, remove the key and not use the OBC. That means I can always subtract 1.4 KW from my charging total. If you're interested in doing the same, read the thread starting with my message here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)
-Don- (in the forest north of Flagstaff, AZ)
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CCS? NACS?
Unless they go DCFC, is NACS really necessary at this point? You can't use Tesla Superchargers unless you have DCFC. You can use Tesla destination chargers with an adapter. And if they go NACS without going DCFC then in the USA you would need to carry an adapter if you wanted to use any of the thousands of J1772 level 2 plugs out in the wild.
When I said "NACS" I MEANT DCFC. I know I can use a destination charger with a TeslaTap, that's old news.
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https://imgur.com/a/XRsOco0
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Interesting, so it looks like maybe three different sizes of bikes. I was thinking the right one may be another DS variant and the left an FX, but the tyres on both look to be about the same level of skinny. Maybe an off-road only and on road version with mirrors. My guess for the middle one is an S/SR/SR/f with FXE like styling.
EDIT: On viewing the actual page the background cycles through a few different images, one that caught my eye shows a drive chain on a spoked wheel. So that gives credence to there being an off-road bike. Also looks to be someone wearing a dirt helmet with some 100% goggles. It looks like there may also be a close up of the top headlight bulb of the left and right bikes, either that or an SR/F headlight that they threw in there for fun.
EDIT2: So I managed to get the URL for the video so I could go through it frame by frame, one of which gives some specs. Seems like the model name may be XR, 223 pounds (101kg), possibly 65hp. So, almost the power of the R models while weighing like 30kg less than an FX. Not far off a Stark Varg either which is 60/80hp and 118kg.
https://download-video.akamaized.net/v3-1/playback/896d3d02-a828-43fd-8491-9f4bd0c31c03/22a9f7e4?__token__=st=1729896509~exp=1729910909~acl=%2Fv3-1%2Fplayback%2F896d3d02-a828-43fd-8491-9f4bd0c31c03%2F22a9f7e4%2A~hmac=5e5ae4b8cc60bb4f3f7223fdb7c7b3bca210dbef2b8e3d05da549cbed6bae860&r=dXMtZWFzdDE%3D
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There's now a bit more of the bikes visible on the Zero site. The covers have been drawn back a bit more in the latest photo.
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Got a bit more info visible in the background now and it's a lot less exciting than I originally thought. First up we have another model name, the XE. What I thought was going to be 65hp is actually 65km (40 miles), presumably that's going to be range so not great. Below that we have 7.5kW and I don't see a H after it (plus it would make more sense for it to be 7.2kW/h) so that's a little under 10hp. The top speed for the XR ends in an 8 (maybe a 3) and the top speed for the XE starts with a 5, so the XE is obviously going to be a sub 60mph bike (the speed in km ends with a 5 so it's either going to be 85 or 53mph, or 95 or 59mph).
I was thinking the X bikes would be the off-road ones and they're leaving out the middle one for some reason, but those are grom tier minibike specs. I can't imagine them bringing out dirt bikes that are even worse than an FX.
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I can imagine Zero getting in on the action to compete with Sur-Ron and similar. That's a pretty big market. Not much interest to us road bike riders though.
Cas :)
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Got a bit more info visible in the background now and it's a lot less exciting than I originally thought. First up we have another model name, the XE. What I thought was going to be 65hp is actually 65km (40 miles), presumably that's going to be range so not great. Below that we have 7.5kW and I don't see a H after it (plus it would make more sense for it to be 7.2kW/h) so that's a little under 10hp. The top speed for the XR ends in an 8 (maybe a 3) and the top speed for the XE starts with a 5, so the XE is obviously going to be a sub 60mph bike (the speed in km ends with a 5 so it's either going to be 85 or 53mph, or 95 or 59mph).
I was thinking the X bikes would be the off-road ones and they're leaving out the middle one for some reason, but those are grom tier minibike specs. I can't imagine them bringing out dirt bikes that are even worse than an FX.
Why not? That’s where the sales are in this market. Unless they’re going to rip off the 116v band-aid, they’ve got nowhere to go in the high end, nothing that will entice existing owners to upgrade to another $18k bike. They must have decided that now is the time to use their premium brand name to sell cheaper <=125cc equivalents, and I don’t blame them.
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I just don't see them getting prices low enough to compete with the likes of Surron, Talaria, E-ride, etc. nor see many people picking them over those manufacturers. Most people that own them are teens or young adults and probably never even heard of Zero because they have no interest in road legal bikes.
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I just don't see them getting prices low enough to compete with the likes of Surron, Talaria, E-ride, etc. nor see many people picking them over those manufacturers. Most people that own them are teens or young adults and probably never even heard of Zero because they have no interest in road legal bikes.
That’s true, but they do have the access to companies like Showa that only “real” manufacturers get. Remember when they first started out and had to use FastAce suspension. They also have a dealer network. Someone might pay $5999 for a Zero “Surron” over a $4,500 Talaria if they feel like they will get better components and support. I have often thought about getting a little 80cc-equivalent electric runabout that the wife can also use, but what always stops me is the thought of spending four-digits on something and possibly being left in the lurch. I’d rather go electric, but I end up looking at used 150cc Vespas instead. Now, ultimately I’m not the right buyer to pay that kind of money for something with so little capability, but I do think there’s at least some market potential.
EDIT: Just saw that the XE and XB were announced today at $6.5k and $4k. Not the runabout I was looking for, more like a dedicated dirt bike. Would suit me fine if I could get it plated, but my 5’2” wife would never be able to get her feet down.
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OK, an oooold post. I own a 2014 ZERO S. Internal charger shorted out. Use the external quick charger. Need to get this fixed so I can sell the Nike. Am trying to secure financing on a RYVID ANTHEM for this Summer.
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I picked up my used charger on Ebay for under $500, they're not very hard to fit either. It's not exactly a cheap fix but would significantly increase the value of your bike.