ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on August 08, 2024, 07:18:45 PM
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Honda and Yamaha collaborate to market electric city "motorcycles". But don't get too excited. They are way below what you want to ride - or at least buy: https://www.mcnews.com.au/honda-to-supply-yamaha-with-electric-motorcycle-models/
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That's not a motorcycle that's a scooter at best. interesting though that they'd go that route especially considering how flooded the market kind of is already with all the chinese knockoffs and other cheap crap
Aaron
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You won't see it outside of Japan, same as all the other scooters using that battery pack. That's the main appeal of the thing, something you can easily swap out at a public station instead of waiting for the thing to charge.
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That might be the solution for cars too in the long run or semi's. Have battery packs that basically clamp onto them, or drop in like a fork truck. it needs a refill, pull in, un shackle, drop old battery, swap with a charged one and you are on your way in 5 or 10 minutes. That may also help with the issue of the batteries and the cost. You really don't own a battery, you rent one, kind of like when you get satellite TV you don't own the box,you rent it, type thing.
Aaron
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I still don't quite get the antipathy towards just charging up a battery...
Cas :)
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I still don't quite get the antipathy towards just charging up a battery...
Cas :)
Could you elaborate? As in why have swap stations and a standard battery the antipathy is directed towards? Antipathy is a deep dislike. Probably none of the active posters experience smog from 50cc class two stroke scooters or even 4 stroke ones. Or live where much more of the petroleum products are imported than USA.
I did find this text in a linked article from the one in post 1
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium expands to 21 members
Last year we reported that Yamaha, Honda, Pierer Group and Piaggio were entering battery consortium, for a universal swappable battery system, in a move to create an industry standard (link).
The member list has now expanded to include: AVL, Ciklo, Fivebikes, Forsee Power, Hioki, Honda, Hyba, JAMA, Kawasaki, KTM, KYMCO, Niu, Piaggio, Polaris, Roki, Samsung, Sinbon, Sumitomo Electric, Suzuki, Swobbee, Vitesco, VeNetWork (Atex, Fantic, Motori Minarelli), Yamaha.
Besides Samsung who is in the cell or battery business as opposed to motor vehicles?
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I still don't quite get the antipathy towards just charging up a battery...
Cas :)
I certainly get the financial advantage to the company that leases its replaceable battery to you. And it might be useful in a city where most of the scooter riding customers live in apartments that don't offer outside charging facilities and/or don't want to (or are prohibited to) carry a heavy battery into their apartment to recharge it.
(I heard recently that San Francisco just adopted a fire code regulation prohibiting charging lithium-ion batteries in apartments, although I believe that regulation was primarily aimed at owners of small-wheel standup scooters that are popular in that city.)
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The living with no parking thing is for real, yes. I don't even have off-road parking myself at home ... I'm one of those people that trails a metre of cable over the pavement to charge :P
Charging big lithium batteries in apartments though ... eek. I mean ... they really genuinely are dangerous. If you get one from a swap station too, you've no idea of its provenance - whether it's been deep discharged and got dendrites, whether it's been dropped off a table onto a corner or been involved in an accident, etc. and you can bet because of the expense of the things nobody will own up to it when they hastily and discreetly return it to the swap station for another one.
I wouldn't want to live on the top floor of a block of flats knowing there were 50 large capacity lithium batteries underneath me somewhere ready to burst into flames at any moment.
Cas :)
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You're basically explaining the advantages of having a public swap station. No need to be lugging the battery up flights of stairs and charging indoors, it charges out in the open with no one really nearby for an extended period of time. The station will probably also have a more complex system for testing and monitoring the health of the batteries and perhaps from time to time a qualified person will visit and not only inspect the physical condition of the station but also that of the batteries and replace any that need to be. Just imagine how less safe it would be if people could refuel with petrol at home compared to at a public station, few people would take good care of their home pumps and you know it would be much more of a fire risk when they're spraying it willy nilly and lighting up a barbecue next to it.
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The reason I even brought up the idea of a swap station was because of speed. People want to cry because it takes 30 minutes to charge their battery, well if it could be swapped in 10 or 15 minutes, then that whole argument is moot, but of course then they'll find something else to demonize and whine about.
What about a batteries history? Easy, just like carfax, each battery has a serial number, when you goto swap there's a list of who had it, how hard they ran it, how deep it was discharged, how many times it was re charged, this is stupid easy to do, with a FULL history of the battery available. If YOU the customer were inclined you could look at the batterie's history, and go ooh, this one is only lasting about 200 miles between charges (it's older or whatever, it don't matter) I want THAT one instead because it's got 300 miles between charges, and im on a long trip and I want fewer stops.
Of course like everything else, this could also be capitalized too. Ok, we got 4 batteries available, battery 1 is a bit older and is not lasting very long, so we'll let you rent it for 10 dollars. Battery 3, is very new, so that one is 14 dollars. type thing. OR just charge people by the mile, rent the battery 3 cents a mile you put on it... the options are endless, but again, the swapping was implied for speed of turn around.
aaron
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Hmm... I wonder about how the electronics works when trying to deal with multiple batteries at different states of charge, age, temperature, etc.
(Obvs, one carryable/swappable battery isn't going to get anyone very far, so bigger bikes are going to want, what ... four or five?)
Cas :)
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Battery swapping works for small mobility stuff like scoots. It was absolutely all the rage in the car world ten years ago and then it fizzled completely because liquid cooled batteries can charge pretty fast actually, DC rapid charging infrastructure is hugely easy and cheap to build compared to car battery swap stations, and battery swapping involves the absolute worst thing any modern business could possibly contemplate ... holding inventory.
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Indeed... think how expensive a swap station is compared to a 22kW AC charger...
Cas :)
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Indeed... think how expensive a swap station is compared to a 22kW AC charger...
Cas :)
Well the station has to incorporate a whole load of chargers into it so that it can have charged inventory available ...
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How long does it take to charge the car? 20 minutes? 30 minutes? maybe 40? In the world of Z's hopelessly glued to their phones, where 30 seconds is TLDR, if it can be swapped in 10 minutes, that's the way to go, it's faster, period.
Battery's can be stacked, can be put up on shelves. The electronics, you read a chip and there's your info, it's not rocket science. Most battery BMS systems record this info already, and if not, it's really easy to do, a first year EE student could whip up a script in about 10 minutes to do this, probably even in the 10 minutes saved by swapping instead of charging.
Aaron
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Gogoro has been successfully using the swapping model in Taiwan for years, and has been slowly bringing it to other places. We investigated something similar at Scoot, and I thought it would have been a game-changer for the profitability of shared electric mopeds. A typical 30-50 MPH scooter carries 2 of the batteries, which weigh 15 lbs each and provide a range of at least 40 miles. It takes about 90 seconds to swap both batteries for an experienced user, including swiping a payment card. Very handy in places that ban or restrict ICE scooters, for apartment dwellers, and places with high gas prices.
It doesn’t really work for cars and full-sized motorbikes due to the weight and shape of the batteries. You need a station wtih fully articulating arms to do the swap given the myriad shapes, and the speed and expense wouldn’t compare favorably to DCFC. <50 MPH scooters and e-bikes are where the market is at.
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So, those same scooters where the owners are probably only doing a 20 mile round trip every day, and could just take the battery out of the bike when they get home and charge it up? Hmm
Cas :)
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Gogoro has been successfully using the swapping model in Taiwan for years, and has been slowly bringing it to other places. We investigated something similar at Scoot, and I thought it would have been a game-changer for the profitability of shared electric mopeds. A typical 30-50 MPH scooter carries 2 of the batteries, which weigh 15 lbs each and provide a range of at least 40 miles. It takes about 90 seconds to swap both batteries for an experienced user, including swiping a payment card. Very handy in places that ban or restrict ICE scooters, for apartment dwellers, and places with high gas prices.
It doesn’t really work for cars and full-sized motorbikes due to the weight and shape of the batteries. You need a station wtih fully articulating arms to do the swap given the myriad shapes, and the speed and expense wouldn’t compare favorably to DCFC. <50 MPH scooters and e-bikes are where the market is at.
I am skeptical about the 30-50 mph, 30 pounds of battery and at least 40 miles of range. My KTM with hard street tires 60 pound battery 30-50 mostly mph, more sensible road sprocket choice, would be 40 miles max as it was close to the power derating level of charge at 36 mi. I suspect the dc-dc converter and other stuff is in my battery looking at cut away pictures of it. Any idea of what besides cells is in the Gogoro swapable battery units and the multi brand standard. Hopefully there are multiple standard sizes and shapes on the drawing board.
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So, those same scooters where the owners are probably only doing a 20 mile round trip every day, and could just take the battery out of the bike when they get home and charge it up? Hmm
Cas :)
That is what I find one has to decide what to do when the battery is partially depleted. The charger is not silent by any means depending on the cost and wait at a swap station or potential wait a decision is in order.
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I am skeptical about the 30-50 mph, 30 pounds of battery and at least 40 miles of range. My KTM with hard street tires 60 pound battery 30-50 mostly mph, more sensible road sprocket choice, would be 40 miles max as it was close to the power derating level of charge at 36 mi. I suspect the dc-dc converter and other stuff is in my battery looking at cut away pictures of it. Any idea of what besides cells is in the Gogoro swapable battery units and the multi brand standard. Hopefully there are multiple standard sizes and shapes on the drawing board.
You do have to take these range claims with a big grain of salt, of course, and I was just quoting from faulty memory so don't take my 40 miles as a manufacturer claim. I just looked up the actual specs, and I was somewhat off: Gogoro uses 9.5 kg / 21 lbs batteries with 1.7 kWh capacity, and supposedly 2.5 kWh for the newer "solid state" batteries.
Scoot used Genze 2.0 scooters with a 1.6 kWh battery that weighed about 35 lbs and we reliably got 20-24 miles of actual range in San Francisco. The Genze battery was pretty heavy for its capacity, so I would expect most e-mopeds to get more range than that for a similar battery weight. Revel used Niu scooters that had 2 x 25 lbs batteries and were good for 50 miles of actual range in SF, can't remember their kWh capacity. On their website, Gogoro advertises 79 km range at 30 km/h for their 1-battery Viva model, and 170 km range at the same speed for their 2-battery Series 2. In the small print, it shows that this is at 0% grade, 63 kg rider, and "fair" wind conditions. I wouldn't expect anything close to that as a rider under any conditions, but I don't think 40-50 miles for the 2-battery model is unreasonable as long as most of that riding is 35 MPH or less.