ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: RZ on March 27, 2024, 01:39:57 AM
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Until recently I have been moving closer to purchasing an SR/S. I'm now feeling that for me, the DSR/X might be the better option
although I do not intend to take the bike off road.
Any DSR/X owners on here? I'm interested in any feedback - good and bad.
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I had the same decision to make last year. I've been riding BMWs R1200GSs since the 1990s and like the similarities to the Zero, like upright seating position, maneuverability, stability, torque, 19-inch front tire, two-up comfort, wind protection (got the taller windshield), hand protectors, luggage, etc. I also like the wider drive belt. Had mine for a year, almost 5000 miles, no problems.
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I too have both an R1250GS and a DSR/X. If where I want to travel is within range of the DSR/X, that is the bike I am taking virtually every time. Quite often I am 2up with my wife. The DSR/X is an easier bike to ride 2up due to the lack of gears and clutch.
I think at this point the DSR/X is Zero's best bike. It certainly is their most comfortable. And the deals that can be had in the USA on 2023 models make buying one a no-brainer. Many dealers are selling them for the same price as they sold the DSR just a few years back. It is way more bike than the 2nd generation DSR.
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Until recently I have been moving closer to purchasing an SR/S. I'm now feeling that for me, the DSR/X might be the better option
although I do not intend to take the bike off road.
Any DSR/X owners on here? I'm interested in any feedback - good and bad.
Yes. My 2023 Zero DSR/X is my favorite bike for most of my rides out of my 11 listed below. But perhaps I will like the Experia better after the FW updates, it just has too many bugs as is. But it will be updated soon.
The Experia has DCFC and more range. But the Zero DSR/X has no bugs and countless places I can charge it for free, and I find the 6.6 kW is fast enough for me. I decided against the extra charger as I often need the extra storage space. I also find it has enough range for me. And if you really want to go far, you can charge the DSR/X to 110% SOC. But not to be used too often, if you want the battery to last.
IMO, the Zero DSR/X is the best bike Zero ever made.
And unlike the Experia, you can get the centerstand in a reasonable time.
On mine, I have the crash bars and all the hard luggage as well.
See my thread here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12796.0)
-Don- Reno, NV
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And unlike the Experia, you can get the centerstand in a reasonable time.
In France, I ordered the centerstand at the same time as the bike 1.5 years ago. I've had the bike for 1 year but still no centerstand
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Given the complaints about the centerstand, geez, how hard is it to contract even a local company to make one to slap on there?
You have the specs, find a machine shop and have them churn some out. Or a fab shop, it can't be rocket science for something so simple, or is there some regulatory BS that's holding them back?
Given how exemplary Energica otherwise is with their customer service and warranty work, etc, it's just surprising to see this relatively small issue, still, such an issue.
Aaron
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Here is a recent review of the DSR-X. The presenter mentions that Zero has just dropped the price of the bike by $5K and it is now selling for an MSRP of $20K. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADDV6qtuKdo
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Here is a recent review of the DSR-X. The presenter mentions that Zero has just dropped the price of the bike by $5K and it is now selling for an MSRP of $20K.
The video showed why you do NOT want miles of range to be shown on the screen. Why only motorcycles do this so stupidly, I will never understand. EV cars don't do it so stupidly as motorcycles. My Tesla range in miles is about three times the SOC% and that works well enough. On the DRS/X just use your percent soc as miles of range and that will be a lot closer than a screen that says you have 150 miles of range left (downhill) to say you have 10 miles range left in five more miles or so as you go up the next hill.
One thing I like about the DSR/X is I do NOT have to have the stupid range left on the screen. And the SOC% is close enough to one mile per %.
-Don- Reno, NV
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So, the price drop is on new left over 2023 bikes? I see the video is 1 day old. I don't know about you guys but the fees beyond msrp tend to be minimal for new left over bikes as least the smaller ones I pay attention to.
Does the guy know what he is talking about around minute 2:30 fully adjustable fork and shock top end stuff. I am not a top end street (adventure here) bike expert, but a top end dirt bike will have fully adjustable meaning high speed and low speed seperate compression adjusters on the shock. Even then there is often more top of the line so to speak here as opposed to there.
It says 6.6kw integrated charger on the zero site. Seems his 20-minute charge should have got him more miles he did not speak in terms of kwh he put into the bike in the 20 minutes.
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So, the price drop is on new left over 2023 bikes? I see the video is 1 day old. I don't know about you guys but the fees beyond msrp tend to be minimal for new left over bikes as least the smaller ones I pay attention to.
I think that dealers tend to offer big discounts off MSRP and then tack on larger than normal fees. The out the door price on my DSR/X was about $17,750. Sales tax, freight, dealer prep, doc/admin fees were $3750 of that $17,750. Still a hell of a lot cheaper than the original $24,995 MSRP though.
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That's about the price they should be charging before they start flash sales and discount incentives...
Cas :)
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Unless you're worried about seat height, you can't go wrong with an ADV or "Adventure Touring" bike. Outside of a racetrack they can do anything other bikes can, within the limits of the law and prudent moto-behavior. Plus they're comfortable, have a commanding view of traffic and terrain from the cockpit and the ground clearance to hop a curb, take stairs, or run down a fire road.
I sold my 1190 Adventure to get an Experia. It was buggy at first but now I'm pretty happy with it. There are still some quirks though. My wife Rides a Zero DSR and honestly, Zero's longevity in the electric moto space is evident. As Don said the new Zero's are solid machines.
The only thing that tipped the scale to the Experia for me was that Zeros cant take DC Charging. The DSR/X would fill my use case well, but I road trip frequently and relying on AC charging only won't get me to the places I want to go in the time I want to get there.
I don't know where you're located but here's a DSR/X in Santa Fe for less then $15,000
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2023-Zero-DSR%2FX+ZF17.3-5023700756
I know you can set up searches in Cycle Trader with email alerts when you get a match. There's at least one person that got an Experia at a significant discount that way when they were still new and all of us on the waiting list were waiting for the call. Put the model and price parameters you can be comfy with and wait till it pops up on the secondary market.
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Unless you're worried about seat height, you can't go wrong with an ADV or "Adventure Touring" bike. Outside of a racetrack they can do anything other bikes can, within the limits of the law and prudent moto-behavior. Plus they're comfortable, have a commanding view of traffic and terrain from the cockpit and the ground clearance to hop a curb, take stairs, or run down a fire road.
I sold my 1190 Adventure to get an Experia. It was buggy at first but now I'm pretty happy with it. There are still some quirks though. My wife Rides a Zero DSR and honestly, Zero's longevity in the electric moto space is evident. As Don said the new Zero's are solid machines.
The only thing that tipped the scale to the Experia for me was that Zeros cant take DC Charging. The DSR/X would fill my use case well, but I road trip frequently and relying on AC charging only won't get me to the places I want to go in the time I want to get there.
I don't know where you're located but here's a DSR/X in Santa Fe for less then $15,000
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2023-Zero-DSR%2FX+ZF17.3-5023700756 (https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2023-Zero-DSR%2FX+ZF17.3-5023700756)
I know you can set up searches in Cycle Trader with email alerts when you get a match. There's at least one person that got an Experia at a significant discount that way when they were still new and all of us on the waiting list were waiting for the call. Put the model and price parameters you can be comfy with and wait till it pops up on the secondary market.
You can get up to 13.2 KWH charging in the DSR/X with the extra charger. But not all charge stations can handle that. But I find the 6.6 KW charger to be fast enough and even that exceeds the capacity of many J-1772 stations that I use.
With some planning, such as a long lunch break, I can cover a lot of miles with the DSR/X even with the 6.6KW charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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You can get up to 13.2 KWH charging in the DSR/X with the extra charger. But not all charge stations can handle that. But I find the 6.6 KW charger to be fast enough and even that exceeds the capacity of many J-1772 stations that I use.
With some planning, such as a long lunch break, I can cover a lot of miles with the DSR/X even with the 6.6KW charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
I frequently do 350 to 450 miles a day when I'm road tripping and I only want to ride during daylight hours. Even with the advanced charge rate on the Zero there just aren't enough AC chargers that can push that kind of current around the places I want to go. Maybe when there is a DJ Industries dual j-plug application for the DSR/X....it will meet my needs.
But right now I try to buy bikes that come stock with everything I need. My days of buying a bike that's close but then turning to the aftermarket to get it where I really want are over. I don't even put aftermarket mufflers or shocks on bikes anymore. Nor do I buy multiple bikes to have a commuter, a road tripper, a track bike,...etc.
I examine my use case, figure out what meets my needs, and buy it or continue riding the "good enough" that I have while I wait till it comes out..... and then buy it.
I was really happy with the 1190 but wanted electric after seeing how my wife lived with her Zero.
As soon as Zero comes out with a DSR/X type bike that can take DC charging I'll probably get it as it will probably have more and better capabilities than my Experia and be a more "finished" machine. But right now, this Experia is the bee's frickin knees. :)
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That's one thing I wish Energica could do is bump up their AC charging. Throw 2 chargers in there, though it'd be tight I think it is doable with a little finagling. Maybe do a Master / slave thing with them, so one controls the charge and the other just pumps into the battery until a set point say half a volt under ideal, then it tapers off and by that time, your balancing charge is within the capacity of one, so the master takes over. Call one a smart charger because it talks CCS, the other a dumb charger because it just turns on via a relay when the charging mode kicks in or something.
Ideally you could do a 20 to 80 in about 2 hours on A/C. Not too terribly bad, but would lessen the 'oh geez this is slow' factor quite a bit when stuck AC charging, and it'd still be within a 30 amp circuit which is very common for 240 VAC.
Aaron
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AC charging is Dead and Dying. There is no R&D going into making smaller chargers and there are no incentives to build more 6kw AC chargers when government grants can be had to put in 150-350 kw DC chargers.
Maybe the aftermarket can come up with a topcase or something that has a J-1772 input (or two?) and a 6kw - 12kw CCS output.
I'm fully on board with bikes that can DCFC having slow AC charging. That is the perfect use case for electric motorcycles. If Energica can find room for anything, let it be active cooling! So I can DCFC over and over again at full charge speed.
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AC charging is Dead and Dying.
Out here, it is much the opposite. AC stations are cheap and easy to install. The DCFC in this area break and nobody ever fixes them.
Casinos, Ski resorts, restaurants, motels (such as Willow Springs Lodge in North San Juan, CA and Chalet View Lodge in Portola, CA that are open to non-guests) often have J-1772 or Tesla Destination chargers. Also places such as Virgina City, NV many city halls, such as Sparks, NV And places such as Fallon, NV where the J-1772 but the DCFC has been broken for years. Also, libraries such as the two in Georgetown, CA.
And a lot of plug-in Hybrids can only use J-1772.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I’ve been on both sides of the AC/DC debate. When I had my SS9 13.4, I would only stop at an L2 long enough to get to a DC charger, since 3 vs 6 kW makes little difference compared to 23 kW DC. On the other hand, it would have been nice to get more range while stopping at a cafe or restaurant, and I might have taken scenic routes with AC chargers if I didn’t have to wait so long. It would also have been nice to have 6 kW on routes where there’s no DC, like the PCH from Monterey to Santa Barbara which only had a single AC charging location at a hospitality site in-between last time I checked.
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... since 3 vs 6 kW makes little difference compared to 23 kW DC.
Here I must respectfully disagree, respectfully because I have only have AC charging experience regarding motorcycles, but I do know that AC charging stations are considerably more spread out than DC charging stations, mostly because DC stations start at 40 k$ while AC stations top at about 4 k$.
I have over 73'000 km on my SR/F and I only did about 20% of that while commuting. On long rides a charging stop at 6 kW takes me between 20 and 40 minutes, which ideally fits having a break, snacking & drinking, talking a walk around. With 3 kW that would have been at least 40 to over an hour, thus not tolerable for me in most cases.
By the way, I am in the process of selling my SR/F, so that I can buy a DSR/X.
https://www.motoscout24.ch/en/d/11405586 (https://www.motoscout24.ch/en/d/11405586)
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If I was at an AC station with my SS9, it was an unplanned range-anxiety stop, and I only stopped long enough to add 10 or 15% to make it to a DC charger. That’s what I meant by 3 vs 6 kW didn’t really matter for my typical rides.
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If I was at an AC station with my SS9, it was an unplanned range-anxiety stop, and I only stopped long enough to add 10 or 15% to make it to a DC charger. That’s what I meant by 3 vs 6 kW didn’t really matter for my typical rides.
With the added charger, you can get 13.2 KW charging on the Zero DSR/X where supported. Many of the places I charge up at cannot even do the full 6.6 KW, but I find it is fast enough for me. I enjoy long breaks, often under a shady tree or whatever, using my computer to post messages like this or a lunch stop or whatever. If I am out on the bike, I am in no hurry to get anywhere fast. I also don't want to give up the extra storage space for the extra charger.
But I find the 3KW charging to be too slow, in most cases, and then the only time I use AC stations is when home, or like you say, to get enough juice to make it to a DCFC.
I find with my Energicas, to get the full 24KW is rather rare. Often the battery is too hot to charge at 24 KW or whatever it can really do when temps are perfect.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I had the rapid charger installed on myDSR/X the first week of February and so far I am happy I did. Where I ride I am able to find 48 amp 10 to 11 kw chargers. While it’s not as fast as the Energica with DC charging it’s close. I can charge from 5% to 100% in just over an hour and before it was over two hours. That’s a big difference on a 250 + day ride. I does cost a lot of money and may not be necessary for some people.
I purchased my bike in July 2023 and have just under 10,000 trouble free miles so far. I am very happy with the DSR/X
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AC charging is Dead and Dying. There is no R&D going into making smaller chargers and there are no incentives to build more 6kw AC chargers when government grants can be had to put in 150-350 kw DC chargers.
Except that no one is installing DC charging in their garage. So decent speed AC charging is still important. This is one reason why Livewire's decision to only do very slow AC and normal DC never really made sense to me. Note that on their new bike, they included level 2 AC charging.
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I see your points on the AC charging but would have to say they are not dead and dying but are very much alive, and easily obtainable.
DC you need a special charger, which is expensive as hell, and then have to wire in a special circuit generally to run it. OFt times you need a transformer and a dedicated line, which adds several more thousands to the price of the project.
An AC charger, you can get 12 KW in essence, right off your already in place mains, with an already established Nema 14-50 plug.
Yes OF COURSE DC is much faster, much more convenient, but what about when it's NOT there?
This is more where I am looking. Even without the 50 amp branch circuit, even a 30 amp Nema circuit can get you 6KW of charging, which is very handy, and I believe you can pull it off on 8 to 10 gauge wire, which still, is on the cheaper end of the price per foot spectrum should you DO find yourself having to run a new leg.,
What if, pretty much every restaurant you pulled into, the phone store, the UPS store, the Dunkin Doughnuts, The Zippypinhead's burger slop joint, the DMV, the train station, etc etc, every place you pull, has a charging station that's 30 to 50 amps? Or at least has a plug (very cheap to install) so YOU can bring your OWN charger and plug it in and charge your vehicle? An AC charger, a 32 amp one can be bought for a few hundred dollars tops. That'll give you up to 7kw anywhere you go, and if you make a dongle adapter, even when you got nothing but a shitty little 115vac, you can pull 12 amps for 1.4 KW, spend an hour drinking a coffee and a donut, that 1.5 kw will get you to the next charger, a real charger etc type of thing.
The smallest AC charger is oh wow I want to say 99 dollars.
The smallest DC charger I seen starts at about 600 dollars, but is not on the market yet, and ones that are a few thousand dollars.
6kw ac charging available, makes a trip very doable with a LITTLE planning.
2kw makes a trip TEDIOUS even with a LOT of planning.
Just saying, while it is not a perfect solution it would make life tons easier and really be a huge plus towards pushing people to buy the bike.
Asking someone to install a 200 dollar wall socket on the side of their building, grand or not grant, is a hell of a lot easier than asking them to install a 4000 dollar charging station.
just my 2 wattss worth.
Aaron
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AC charging is growing quite well. Many small businesses are adding them to attract customers. All the major hotels are adding them, in fact Hilton purchased 20,000 48 amp / 11 kw universal wall chargers from Tesla to install at most North American locations. Where I live there are 10 times more locations with AC charging than DC charging. The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica. Also the DC chargers tend to be located just off the interstate and I prefer to ride the back roads or near small towns.
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AC charging is growing quite well. Many small businesses are adding them to attract customers. All the major hotels are adding them, in fact Hilton purchased 20,000 48 amp / 11 kw universal wall chargers from Tesla to install at most North American locations. Where I live there are 10 times more locations with AC charging than DC charging. The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica. Also the DC chargers tend to be located just off the interstate and I prefer to ride the back roads or near small towns.
Do you know if Hilton is planning on letting non-customers use them? Some motel/hotels do and some do and some not.
One that welcomes non-customers, even lets non-customers use their lobby and will tell you such, is the Chalet View Lodge here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/124842) So sometimes I go inside and use my computer from a nice comfy chair and table. They have three Tesla-Destination charge stations, no J-1772, so a Tesla-Tap is a must. I have yet to see all of them in use. It's a great location for electric motorcycle rides in the CA mtns.
Another couple of great locations for AC input charging in CA for Mtn electric motorcycle rides are here in Georgetown (https://www.plugshare.com/location/346912)and in North San Juan. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/482582) Also Truckee, CA (https://www.plugshare.com/location/350518).
For NV, Virgina City. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/119255)
Also, all of above are free to use except for the one in North San Juan. You will see a photo of many of my electric motorcycles at all those locations on Plugshare.
The ONLY one close to any type of DCFC in above is Truckee, CA. And expensive to use, instead of free.
If somebody wants to try to build the perfect bike, they need both DCFC and at least 6KW AC for charging, even if that requires a smaller battery and less range for the larger charger. Range is not as important when you have more choices for charging.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don’t know what the official Hilton policy will be but they may not be free and therefore public. These universal wall chargers have the magic dock with J1772 and NACS. They also have the ability for the provider to charge a fee. There are four of these above 30 miles from my home that I use on occasion at a hotel and conference center. They charge $0.15 per kWh. If you check your Tesla app under charge your none Tesla you will see them being installed from coast to coast. These have been going in at a rapid pace for about six months.
Most hotels in the south where I live don’t mind none guests charging for free for the time being. I do expect that to change with new equipment installed that allow them to collect money.
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I don’t know what the official Hilton policy will be but they may not be free and therefore public. These universal wall chargers have the magic dock with J1772 and NACS. They also have the ability for the provider to charge a fee. There are four of these above 30 miles from my home that I use on occasion at a hotel and conference center. They charge $0.15 per kWh. If you check your Tesla app under charge your none Tesla you will see them being installed from coast to coast. These have been going in at a rapid pace for about six months.
Most hotels in the south where I live don’t mind none guests charging for free for the time being. I do expect that to change with new equipment installed that allow them to collect money.
There are a few places that are not free and are only open to customers and vice versa.
Examples here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/131580)and here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/472247) of where they even charge their paying customers extra for charging up. And nobody else is allowed to use. Same with the KOA campgrounds which recently installed J-plugs.
However, that is all with AC charge stations. I find all hotels and such with DCFC allow anybody to use. Perhaps because they cost more to have and they want to make some of their money back on the DCFCers. And people do not hog those all day and all night long, so there is time for others to use.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The availability of charging is why I purchased a Zero and not an Energica.
I did the same thing in France
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There is also a nonprofit organization called Adapt A Charger funding Level 2 charging at parks , museums, and other public locations coast to coast.
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All I'm saying is that the industry isn't moving in any direction for us. That is the pressure we can exert, electric motorcyclists with our less than 20KWH battery packs, aren't going to drive any trends for the general public.
Cars. Catering to the needs of cars is what people will be doing. Cars want 100kwh battery packs and 350kw plus charging speeds. 6kw to a vehicle with a 100kwh battery is soo, slow. It really amounts to premium parking and a reason why an electric vehicle owner would choose one location over another.
Don't get disappointed at AC charging speeds. AC is not for fast charging. AC is for attracting you to spend hours at a location to spend money. AC is for letting your bike sit in the garage overnight to be ready for tomorrow's commute.
If you want more than 3kw AC charging, then start hacking it up with Diginow and all the other home brew aftermarket options that Zero owners have be working on since 2010. Wanting faster AC charging on a bike that can take DCFC is like wanting to put a turbo on a supercharger because you want more top end power. Like, welcome to being an early adopter
I Know I'm lucky as I live in California. I never have trouble getting to where I want to go because DC charging is everywhere and my bike can take CCS. But looking at the the tea leaves of the future, you'll have an easier time trying to get your legislators to facilitate more DC chargers than you will getting makers of DC capable bikes supporting faster AC charging. Even vaporware makers, except Damon, (advertised as having up to 12kw AC charging as well as facilitating higher rates with DCFC), are spec'ing out their bikes with ~3.3 kw capability on AC level 2. (Verge TS, Evoke 6061).
It's just the state of the industry with DC capable bikes right now.
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12 kW AC might be similar or a little better than Energica’s DC in miles-per-minute of charging since my SS9 usually charged somewhere in the 9-18 kW range due to overheating and Zero’s are quite a bit more efficient in Wh/mi on the highway in my experience. Energica really needs to implement better battery cooling if they want DC charging to be a decisive advantage, IMO.
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Was that you on the Veloce at Mt. Tam yesterday for the Easter Sunrise?
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No, that bike went to motorcycle heaven in 2020.
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12 kW AC might be similar or a little better than Energica’s DC in miles-per-minute of charging since my SS9 usually charged somewhere in the 9-18 kW range due to overheating and Zero’s are quite a bit more efficient in Wh/mi on the highway in my experience. Energica really needs to implement better battery cooling if they want DC charging to be a decisive advantage, IMO.
I have not seen this to be an issue, even when I got the battery into the yellow heat wise. 12 KW ac is only about 30 amps DC, yes you can push 35 amps when the battery is low, when it's in it's 80s and up, you are only getting about 30 amps thru to the battery. Remember, the AC charging, there is additional heat being put into the bike in general because the rectification is happening ON the bike. DC charging you can put up to 75 A in the bike it lets you dial up to, even when heating up, i've seen it still take over 40 w/o significant curtailing due to heat.
I would love to see liquid cooling, but of course that will add weight, more stuff to go wrong, and of course cost, and it'd have to be on when the battery is charging. Surrounding the battery cells with liquid is a whole new ballgame, each cell MUST be waterproof now, a substantial cost increase. Yes each cell in theory IS sealed up, and one might consider waterproof, but when put into a system that will be under pressure, the pump forcing the liquid roundy roundy, that's an entirely different sealing system on the battery's now. No more just taping the ends shut type of thing.
Overall that's kind of a conundrum we are in here. They are not going to put more charging stations up until there are more cars demanding them, yet people are not going to buy the electric cars until there are stations to support them, however tesla is doing pretty well at propagating all over. I think that is going to be a major turning point there, when his stations eventually are open to most / all vehicles and they can say, yes support IS there, not just for one model either.
Aaron
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I only saw high charging speeds across multiple charges on cold winter days. The rest of the time it was more like 12-14, dipping down to 9 on 100+ deg days, and as low as 6 on a particularly miserable crawl across the central valley in summer.
I do understand that AC can also slow down due to heat. My Zero SR 13.0 only ever gave me ~5.2 kW out of 7.1 kW between the OBC, 2.5 kW charge tank, and 3.3 kW ElCon charger. It would dip down to 4.4 on hot days and I couldn't touch the ElCon with my bare hands for quite a while after it was done.
Liquid cooled cells might be a bridge too far right now, but I still feel that Energica could implement better cooling if they made it a priority, even if it's just additional fans and airflow, or using additional metal mass as a heatsink. The motor and AC charger on the Experia are both liquid cooled, why not have them absorb heat from the battery during charging and shed the heat when underway?