ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: Specter on December 29, 2023, 09:43:24 AM
-
Was talking to a friend today about electric bikes and explaining how a hard regen setting can really pump some power back to the battery. Ive seen 24 kw or so of regen going back on some faster / longer regen's. with that. How does that wear on the chain. I mean, before e bikes, chains really only bore stress in one direction really, or one vector. Ok bigger bikes had some engine braking but that wasn't as severe as some of the regen settings can put on a chain, or for as long either Id assume.
Are chains manufactured to take the stress in BOTH directions equally, or is their 'strong force bearing vector' just really in one direction?
If the chain is getting worn /stretched, is the slap slam of really loading them up with 30 to 40 hp equivalent power just wallowing them out all that much faster.
In normal braking, the brakes are taking the brunt of the force, in a regen braking, the chain is taking the brunt really, it's transmitting the force from the wheel to the generator which is keeping the steady stress on it, unlike an engine which is idling down.
Just wondering how much faster a chain is going to wear with strong regen .vs. no regen or a non regenerative type bike overall. Given it's not a super tight circuit with the chain, the backlash /slap could be pretty significant from power to regen shift.
Has any study's been done on this at all?
Just curious.
aaron
-
Wear will be neglidgible, 24kw or about 32hp is nothing compared to the 100+kw which potentially goes into it from the other direction. I suspect it's the torque which would do more damage to a chain.
There are bikes out there these days with in excess of 200+hp, but nowhere near the torque of an Energica.
The chain doesn't know what direction it's going and can be fitted either way.
Smithy.
-
It might be different with an old style chain with a circlip fastening the master link, but won't make any difference with chains with a pressed-on master link. Those are not directional, so the chain should work just as well in either direction.
-
Wear will be neglidgible, 24kw or about 32hp is nothing compared to the 100+kw which potentially goes into it from the other direction. I suspect it's the torque which would do more damage to a chain.
There are bikes out there these days with in excess of 200+hp, but nowhere near the torque of an Energica.
The chain doesn't know what direction it's going and can be fitted either way.
Smithy.
Although it does not know which direction it is going, it still just goes in that one direction over and over, except with maybe a little reverse, until you get regen or heavy engine braking which now is pulling it back, essentially in the other direction very strongly. All the wear, or perhaps I should say stretching is mostly in the one direction and pieces tend to stretch fit into each other nicely in that wear model. Now keep thowing a backing force, a backlash on it, where you loosen all those nicely fitting parts and smash them the other way into each other.
Just curious if it's causing significant extra wear or negligible really. Speaking of torque, the backlash and slap when transversing a driving force to a driven one must be pretty significant as well.
Maybe energica should do a front wheel drive bike, put the weight up front and front wheel regen, that'll save even more energy :) or an all wheel drive bike. left chain drives the back, right drives the front. Wouldn't have to worry about the wheels ever getting out of sync, they are lock trained now, bye bye death wobble! </sarc.off> Maybe Damon can snag the idea to keep his bikes stable at the what 260 mph they are capable of :)
-
If you pull on a chain it doesn't matter which end that force is being applied from. Say you had a chain attached to the tow hooks of two trucks facing in opposite directions, it doesn't matter which truck puts their brake on and which tries driving away the force on the chain is identical in every way. The only difference with a chain and sprocket setup is that the opposite side of the sprocket teeth and the pins in the chain are being loaded (the rollers rotate so it all evens out), but that's not going to increase the wear over not using regen in any way that matters unless for some reason your regen was greater than your forward torque.
-
A reverse force on the chain has never been an issue with motorcycles. Regen can almost apply as much reverse force on a chain as downshifting does (on a petrol bike) and am I pretty sure nobody (well, very few) worries about and their chain life and downshifting. Engine and transmission wear are the greater concern there.
-
Modern (quality) motorcycle chains are extremely strong, most are rated at 5-8klbs tensile strength. They are so strong that the Energica used in MotoE ran 520 pitch chains vs the 525 size used on production bikes. A 520 chain is lighter and still had more than enough strength to handle the bikes torque.
Chains on ICE bikes experience the same reverse loading when you release the throttle due to engine breaking. Bikes with smaller pistons (lower displacement or many cylinders) will apply less load to the chain off throttle. Big displacement twins can actually apply enough engine breaking to lock up the rear wheel when you close the throttle or down shift.
Under drive the chain rollers will put load on the left face of the front and rear sprocket teeth. Under regen that load will be supported by the right side faces of the teeth.
Over time this load results in wear on the sprocket teeth and the chain rollers. The left side of the sprocket teeth will experience more wear since they are under load more often and see higher peak loading.
This uneven wear on the sprocket teeth is why the chain noise sounds different when a bike is under regen.
-
For anyone who is interested in the details of chains and chain drives.
A motorbike chain consists of rollers, bushings, pins, seals and the links. In comparison, bicycle chains come without seals and without bushings.
There is lube between pins and bushings which is (theoretically) sealed by the x- or o-rings and is not replaceable.
The lube between bushings and rollers is what you renew by appyling lube spray, drip oil or whatever.
(Refer to https://womanrider.com/2019/03/motorcycle-chains-101/ )
In an ideal world there is no relative movement between the roller and the sprocket surfaces. The rotation movement is between roller and bushing and pin.
(See attached sketch, the diameter d1 is the same for sprocket and roller.)
In real world, due to the lube deterioration (breakdown of molecules due to load and temperature as well as ingress of e.g. moisture) the surfaces begin to wear and the chain is lengthening.
(Please note: The chains are made for high load and thus the lengthening is not due to the applied stress.)
This lengthening in turn leads to a relative movement between rollers and sprocket which causes abrasion, furthering the wear.
(In this article this is described quite nicely https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/174/1/012049/pdf )
The unavoidable presence of dirt (usually consisting mainly of highly abrasive silicium dioxide) is increasing the wear of the surfaces. Thus over time the sprocket teeths are abraded on the loaded side, resulting in the famous shark teets apperance.
-
Thank you for the info.
My chain is making a lot of noise lately and ive done the maintenance on it and had the dealer as well when I had the bike in for some warranty fixes and the annual since it was there. Mayb im just paranoid but I can hear it rattling and almost like a grinding noise from the motor side when it's in heavier regen. Not sure if thats normal, especially now that it's COLD out and everything is grumpy or what, but didn't seem that loud before and am concerned, and not sure if I need to be or not. I DO also ride my bike kind of hard as well, so it's not being pampered in the HP zone either. Just wondering if I wore out the chain already at 9k or is this normal?
Ill keep an eye on things and see
Aaron
-
I assume you hear the rattling at low speeds (at higher speeds other noises become prominent). In my experience this is a sign that the chain needs to be tightened, maybe just a 1/8 turn of the hexagon screws will do the trick.
9 k is surely not much, but thinking about my disastrous experience with the 'low maintenance' Regina HPE which ended after only 10 k, it might be that your chain is near the end of its lifetime.
As already discussed in other posts here, the longevity of a chain depends on several factors. I've often read you like to push your bike 8), so death of your chain at 9 k does not appear impossible.
If you want to be sure, get one of these chain gauges for less than 20$. Then you know for sure what is going on.
-
My front sprocket was REALLY done at 11k and I am very good about routine maintenance. It began making very loud clacking noises even when adjusted in spec.
Remember you need a specific socket to remove the front sprocket that most dealers (including Energica dealers) don't have! Even Tytler's cycle in WI, the one doing all the racing, didn't have it.
-
So where did you get your sproket at Dryer?
jono, agreed, that generally signals the chain is loose and you hear it dragging over the cover down there, however in this case it's not so much a dragging sound, and the chain, TBH if anything is probably a bit tight this time, I DID adjust it, it was loose again before. It sounds more like it's coming from the front sproket area, I don't want to say, it sounds like bearings, god I hope not.
One thing I have noticed is if you chain is too tight you get a lot of I guess you could call it, motor noise on it, and looser quieted it down, until it starts dragging. Ive been romping around town this week so Ill check it again tomorrow, give it a real good cleaning and see what we got. i'll have to get a chain gauge just to have, seems like a handy tool.
The chain is supposed to be 30 cm play in it, normally about 500 ish miles or so mine is about 33 to 34 and Ill adjust it in, with a flat or two on the nut, this time is was pushing about 38, I could hear it was really sloppy. This is what is making me wonder, if it's getting towards it's end because it's wearing more??? Maybe this is normal wear, I honestly don't know. Besides for that, about how far 'down the adjuster' does one generally end up at before the chain is considered ready to replace?
Aaron
-
I picked up all my sprockets from sprocketcenter.com.
-
thanks and what about the socket that you say is hard to get?
What exactly IS it so others can go find it
thanks
Aaron
-
@ Aaron:
The demise of a chain accelerates towards the end, the same as with ball bearings etc.
That can be explained e.g. by the loss of available surface on which the load can be distributed - when it gets smaller, the load per surface area rises, causing more damage which in turn leads to higher/quicker wear.
I think you are right, keeping the chain rather above the 30 mm play to be on the safe side. So 33 to 34 seems totally OK to me and should by itself not be a cause for increased wear of the chain.
For removal of the sprocket you need a grooved nut key (translation of the German 'Nutmutternschlüssel') KM5. See the attached pictures. Cost should be in the range of 15 USD.
Sprocket is a PBR 2078 with 15 teeth (Ribelle RS). Alternative would be a AFAM 61801-15 or JT-Sprocket JTF704
Rear sprocket is AFAM 92630 with 44 teeth (the same for all Ribelles). Alternative could be Superlite RSX SKU#92630RX.
@Dryer667:
Your sprocket looks quite worn with clear beginning of the shark teeth. Really only 10 k?
Mine looked much better after 22 k.
Did you ride in rainy/wet conditions often?
-
Both in my SS9 and the Ribelle, I have regularly changed front sprockets, varying from 10k km to 15k km. This was for ride comfort (rattling noises, squeak/click on initial acceleration) and to prolongue chain life in general.
The initial force of the Ribelle RS in sport mode is out of this world compared to my old SS9. My RS was a demo till 7k km, so at 10k, I really wanted to change the front sprocket.
Sprocket sizes and tool types indeed as already described here. I do want to mention that the job of changing does need some attention: Loosening the nut needs a good breaker bar and the torque for mounting is 190Nm. For rear sprocket I mounted a black Sitta 44t 525 for Marchesini wheels.
-
My high-power liter bikes had as much compression braking as regen, maybe more. I'm planning to ride one side by side with my SR/S soon to be sure. My previous sport bike, a CBR1100XX, would slow down HARD at 10k RPM with the throttle closed.
-
Both in my SS9 and the Ribelle, I have regularly changed front sprockets, varying from 10k km to 15k km. This was for ride comfort (rattling noises, squeak/click on initial acceleration) and to prolongue chain life in general.
I changed my Experia front sprocket very early, at less than 1000km .....but it was to fit a 16t instead of the OEM 15t to help correct the silly speedo error. I changed out the OEM chain and sprockets at ~12700km, sprockets were still in good condition but I found the chain had a couple of tight links, so replaced it with a DID ZVMX 520 gold chain and aluminium rear sprocket....much better.
Smithy.
-
Looking thru the different sprocket configs available.
It looks like you can add a few teeth to the front sprocket, and knock several teeth off the rear sprocket. With the HP and Torque this bike has, I doubt you'll see much performance degradation, but if one were to really get radical and knock say 4 or 5 teeth out of the rear, I bet you could get close to EGO top end on the Ribelle, although the speedo would be off, I use gps anyways so, no biggie.
wonder if this would work?
Also wondering, if the total tooth count between front and rear was kept the same, would the chain length stay the same too or need to be adjusted as well?
Aaron
-
Looking thru the different sprocket configs available.
It looks like you can add a few teeth to the front sprocket, and knock several teeth off the rear sprocket. With the HP and Torque this bike has, I doubt you'll see much performance degradation, but if one were to really get radical and knock say 4 or 5 teeth out of the rear, I bet you could get close to EGO top end on the Ribelle, although the speedo would be off, I use gps anyways so, no biggie.
wonder if this would work?
Also wondering, if the total tooth count between front and rear was kept the same, would the chain length stay the same too or need to be adjusted as well?
Aaron
A few teeth on the front & rear sprockets will have a dramatic effect on the speedo reading. I found just one tooth extra on the front from 15t to 16t changed the speedo ~7-8kmh, it's now reading spot on. I'm still running the stock 52t on the rear as well.
Smithy.
-
Specter - the nut is a KM5 nut and needs the same socket as jotjotde specified. Unfortunately the cost is going to be over $100USD for reasons I cant explain. The only sockets I could find came from Europe and weren't cheap. https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p210006/SKF-TMFS5-Lock-Nut-Socket-for-KM5-KMK5-KMF5/product_info.html
jotjotde - I did some super long road trips in some pretty rough conditions but cleaned and maintained very regularly. On one of my trips (Salt Lake City to LA and back) I had a day where I was riding through snow and slush for 200 miles so I have put my bike through a lot.
-
At amazon.de you get the groove nut key KM5 for about 25 €. This is surely not the best quality, but for the occasional use it should be good.
If you are interested, here is the link.
https://www.amazon.de/BGS-8327-5-Nutmutternschl%C3%BCssel-Zapfen-liegend/dp/B084GP849S/ref=pd_vtp_d_sccl_2_5/260-8446105-1023446?pd_rd_w=2YPpk&content-id=amzn1.sym.58bc6d2f-2533-4b11-8c9c-a330359ee496&pf_rd_p=58bc6d2f-2533-4b11-8c9c-a330359ee496&pf_rd_r=J1523QJKT0K1RWVW2NF2&pd_rd_wg=qcGxi&pd_rd_r=b3f95f17-cc4b-47ba-9dfb-ed19680ee59f&pd_rd_i=B084GP849S&psc=1
@Dryer667: According to my experience from cycling chain and sprockets really suffer in wet conditions. Inside the water spray coming from the tyres there is always fine/superfine stuff suspended which actually acts as a grinding medium. That quickly removes any lubrication and wears down chain and sprockets.
-
Specter - the nut is a KM5 nut and needs the same socket as jotjotde specified. Unfortunately the cost is going to be over $100USD for reasons I cant explain. The only sockets I could find came from Europe and weren't cheap. https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p210006/SKF-TMFS5-Lock-Nut-Socket-for-KM5-KMK5-KMF5/product_info.html
AF1 racing, which I believe is an Energica dealer, they had the socket for like 32 dollars I think it was. It's currently out of stock but was very reasonably priced, i got one on order.
https://www.af1racing.com/ENS002237-Energica-Hexagon-Socket
-
the AF1 "hexagon socket" above is listed for swingarm removal and a couple other places, not the countershaft.
The "sprocket socket" is over 200USD and backordered: https://www.af1racing.com/ENS001870-Energica-Sprocket-Socket
I spent some time looking around and it seems like there's a bunch of 4wd components and other ones listed in inch sizes for anywhere from 25-50 USD, but I'm not confident in the (un)listed measurements to buy any.
There's a french ebay seller that has the right KM5 sockets for ~25euro but their US store only has the external tooth version.
-
whoops, my bad. Thanks for the catch. I didn't see that one you listed when I looked earlier but got one on order as well.
Now to get all the stuff to come in
aaron
-
I originally made a "sprocket socket" from an old deep socket I had laying around....using a hack saw & file...works fine.
I've since bought one of these...Just shy of 30 Euros...or about $33 USD.
https://www.bgs-shop.de/en/BGS/Sockets/Special-Sockets/Rivet-Nut-Inserts/Groove-Nut-Socket-external-tooth-KM5.html
Also works fine.
The Experia uses 520 chain and sprockets so I'm using an Aprillia RSV/Tuono 520 front sprocket as they're often much cheaper than using OEM Energica sprocket. Rear sprocket is a Vortex Aluminium item, a little more difficult to get though.
Smithy.
-
Well, after checking again, yah, I need a new chain. This one has very tight spots in some areas and sloppy in others and you can hear it grumbling in places as it goes around the front sprocket. Ill have to pamper it until I get the new chain / sprockets in and the tool to put them on then.
Good news, my Corsa Cliente is arriving hopefully on Monday and Ill have something dedicated for the track now!
Aaron
-
Good news, my Corsa Cliente is arriving hopefully on Monday and Ill have something dedicated for the track now! Aaron
Photos when it arrives please....not many of these out in the wild.
Smithy.
-
Will do, its supposed to be here monday sometime but lets see what happens with weather and all.
Aaron
ps shit ill have to wait a full week to get to the track with it, dammit. well i might take a quick romp down a back road, to blow the carbon out of the pipes, . that long trip you know :D :D
-
Aaron, please give feedback about how the change of the front sprocket went.
It is my understanding that the tightening torque is somewhere in the region of 160-190 Nm :o :o :o
Applying such torque with the rear wheel blocked with something will probably a pain in the butt.
-
jojo its going to be a little while. Still trying to find the tool. I know where it is at but have to go thru a dealer and getting one that will reply to my e mails is another story it seems :(
Aaron
-
Hi Aaron,
Any news about changing the front sprocket? Mine starts to look a bit worn now and I would like to know if I could change it by myself.
-
Hi Aaron,
Any news about changing the front sprocket? Mine starts to look a bit worn now and I would like to know if I could change it by myself.
Easy to do, only takes 15 mins if you have the special socket, a new lock washer should be fitted as well. I fitted a 16t to the front of my Experia vs the stock 15t...I only did it to get the speedo reading closer to what it should be....It's very accurate now, within +/- 1kmh according to my GPS.
Smithy.
-
After their .43 software update, the speedo should be reading correctly without having to mess with the sprocket / back gear teeth.
I did not replace the front one, after looking at it, it was fine. My chain got trashed, I got silt in it which tore the living shit out of it, so I just ordered a new chain .vs. the sprockets as well.
You need a special tool to change the front. If you have access to a machine shop it's very easy to make one, otherwise I found that Energica of New England has some maybe, AND they also have one they will let you rent if you need to change your sprocket.
I did a very thorough cleaning of my chain the first time but after running it on the track a few times, I found that it has a tick tick tick to it so decided its time to replace.
Aaron
-
After their .43 software update, the speedo should be reading correctly without having to mess with the sprocket / back gear teeth.
I did not replace the front one, after looking at it, it was fine. My chain got trashed, I got silt in it which tore the living shit out of it, so I just ordered a new chain .vs. the sprockets as well.
You need a special tool to change the front. If you have access to a machine shop it's very easy to make one, otherwise I found that Energica of New England has some maybe, AND they also have one they will let you rent if you need to change your sprocket.
I did a very thorough cleaning of my chain the first time but after running it on the track a few times, I found that it has a tick tick tick to it so decided its time to replace.
Aaron
No changes were made to the speedo on my Experia after the .43 update....my speedo is reading the same as it was before and after the .43 update.
I always change the chain & sprockets as a set, they always wear after many km's....even when we can't see it. I fitted a 16t Aprillia Tuono front sprocket and a Vortex 52t Aluminium rear sprocket coupled with a DID ZVMX 520 gold chain.
Smithy.
-
@smithy & spector
Thx for your reply! What about the torque for the sprocket nut? I've read about a whopping 189 Nm for a Ducati Panigale, that makes me a bit concerned.
-
"I always change the chain & sprockets as a set, they always wear after many km's....even when we can't see it. I fitted a 16t Aprillia Tuono front sprocket and a Vortex 52t Aluminium rear sprocket coupled with a DID ZVMX 520 gold chain.
Smithy."
Beautiful components. Love the lightweight Vortex sprockets. Curious to see how the aluminum handles the wear from all that torque put down by the Energica. Please report back how it wears.
-
@smithy & spector
Thx for your reply! What about the torque for the sprocket nut? I've read about a whopping 189 Nm for a Ducati Panigale, that makes me a bit concerned.
I didn't use 189nm...I just used 110nm for the Experia...
Smithy.
-
Beautiful components. Love the lightweight Vortex sprockets. Curious to see how the aluminum handles the wear from all that torque put down by the Energica. Please report back how it wears.
The Experia OEM rear sprocket is also aluminium so I don't see the Vortex aluminium item being an issue. I have ~7k km on the new chainset so far with no visible signs of extra wear, I do maintain/clean/lube it well though...the original sprockets & chain had 12,690km on them when I changed the set out...the OEM Regina chain was showing a couple of tight links but there was no major wear on anything that I could see, sprockets were still in good/normal condition. I'm not a fan of Regina chains and much prefer the DID ZVMX range of chains.
Bike now has just shy of 20,000km on it now and is performing to expectations. I do all my own maintenance and carry out all the service bulletins/recalls myself, I have not had any major issues to speak of.
Smithy.
-
^^^ Awesome!
-
I understand what you are saying about the sprokets wearing and I did check mine carefully. I didn't clean the chain as often as I should have, and given the environment I live in, I need to clean it even more, probably every 100 miles or so, I was pushing it sometimes 400 to 500 miles between cleanings, just giving it a squirt of lube instead of a deep cleaning because it 'looked' ok. That was my bad. I am also a person who likes to put their bike to work, I ride it hard, and take it on the track as well as street running. It gets its workout.
Maybe I didn't need to change it quite yet but it makes me feel better that I did, plus I compared my original sprocket to a brand new one and the wear was negligible, no dragon or bubba teeth on it. The chain and sprocket is supposed to last what? 15 to 20 K miles? I wasn't even half that yet, so am comfortable just doing the chain, however do have a new set already on hand of everything for the next change out.
TBH I have an entire wheel and sprocket change out, for when I DO take it to the track, instead of fricking around trying to remove tires from rims, reinstalling, balancing bla bla. I just change out the entire wheel, front and back. it's a 20 minute job .vs. an hour and 20. If I get in a jam, I can change stuff out with parts on hand.
As for Torque values, I have to look, I have it written on my tool box notebook, I don't have them memorized. I have also head some people say that when it comes to the rear axle, torqueing them to the specs the OEM states, can mushroom them after time, that going a bit light won't harm, in fact might be a better idea.
One thing I do notice. The holes for the chain guard to bolt down, they get crunchies in them real easy, have to keep them very clean or you'll be chasing threads. I heard someone say they used stainless or titanium screws? While that will keep the screws from getting shitty which they DO, on that note, do you want the swingarm to be your sacrificial surface .vs. a 10 cent screw? Just some food for thought.
Aaron
-
I understand what you are saying about the sprokets wearing and I did check mine carefully. I didn't clean the chain as often as I should have, and given the environment I live in, I need to clean it even more, probably every 100 miles or so, I was pushing it sometimes 400 to 500 miles between cleanings, just giving it a squirt of lube instead of a deep cleaning because it 'looked' ok. That was my bad. I am also a person who likes to put their bike to work, I ride it hard, and take it on the track as well as street running. It gets its workout.
Maybe I didn't need to change it quite yet but it makes me feel better that I did, plus I compared my original sprocket to a brand new one and the wear was negligible, no dragon or bubba teeth on it. The chain and sprocket is supposed to last what? 15 to 20 K miles? I wasn't even half that yet, so am comfortable just doing the chain, however do have a new set already on hand of everything for the next change out.
TBH I have an entire wheel and sprocket change out, for when I DO take it to the track, instead of fricking around trying to remove tires from rims, reinstalling, balancing bla bla. I just change out the entire wheel, front and back. it's a 20 minute job .vs. an hour and 20. If I get in a jam, I can change stuff out with parts on hand.
As for Torque values, I have to look, I have it written on my tool box notebook, I don't have them memorized. I have also head some people say that when it comes to the rear axle, torqueing them to the specs the OEM states, can mushroom them after time, that going a bit light won't harm, in fact might be a better idea.
One thing I do notice. The holes for the chain guard to bolt down, they get crunchies in them real easy, have to keep them very clean or you'll be chasing threads. I heard someone say they used stainless or titanium screws? While that will keep the screws from getting shitty which they DO, on that note, do you want the swingarm to be your sacrificial surface .vs. a 10 cent screw? Just some food for thought.
Aaron
Agree with everything you've said mate..!
Smithy.