ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: CurtG on December 07, 2023, 11:46:57 PM
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This thread was originally titled "Firmware update destroyed my battery and Zero will not replace it".
My last post explains that Zero spent a lot of time on this and in the end a battery management board replacement fixed the problem that stranded me and the "destroyed" battery was really just a weak battery that had been degrading over time. I owe Zero an apology for calling the battery "destroyed". They did not charge me for any of this.
Original post:
All,
I am writing to warn potential buyers away from buying a Zero. Zero strongly encourages owners to keep all firmware up to date. Unfortunately, I followed this recommendation a few months ago. While riding home after the firmware update, the battery drained quickly and the bike stalled out while cruising. When the battery hit 8%, I stopped and begged a ride from a friend with a pickup. This happened at a place where the battery should have been about 75% full still. The batteries were both strong before this event.
With me and the motorcycle shop negotiating with Zero, they agreed to send a new battery management board for replacement, which the shop did. However, it appears the rest of the battery is wasted as it won't accept a charge. Zero won't replace the battery, so I am stuck with a crippled motorcycle or a very expensive battery replacement.
You may argue that the shop did something wrong during the update, but I would argue that the update process and code in the motorcycle should prevent things that would destroy the battery. In my mind this leaves Zero to blame. In any case, I will be donating the motorcycle and will have nothing more to do with Zero.
Model: 2015 FX
Mileage: Approximately 10,000 miles
-Curt
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A 2019 is still under warranty. Is this not worth fighting?
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My mistake. It is a 2015.
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When you say, "won't accept a charge" does that mean you've tried sources besides the onboard one? Like a Delta Q?
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I don't have the bike back yet (got the bad news this morning). The dealer said it won't take a charge; I think they are charging individually outside the bike, but I don't know for sure.
The dealer informed me that Zero will go no further.
Also don't know yet what the condition of the other battery is.
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A firmware update shouldn't be able to actually kill the battery in that scenario, if it would usually have been at around 75% there's no way it's going to somehow expend multiple kW/h extra. It's just reading a lower state of charge than it should be. The actual battery, the bits that store the energy and make up most of the cost, should be fine. Even the BMS should in theory be physically fine and unless the firmware is stored in read only memory could theoretically be recovered.
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I think I would tend to agree with you except the replacement BMS board is reporting inability to charge. The original BMS board failed to connect to the charger, as the dealer described to me.
One scenario I could see causing this is that the BMS balancing electronics (or code) could have been stuck on, causing some or all cells to drain. I don't know what scheme Zero uses in their batteries, but good (efficient) balancers use inductors or transformers and MOSFETs to divert current to or around particular cells without burning much power. Unfortunately, this does not mean it can't drain some cells completely in the event of a malfunction.
Given that the original BMS board was damaged, it seems possible that the balancing circuits could have shorted cells, especially if one or more MOSFETs failed.
Something that comes to mind is the possibility that the wrong code was loaded into the BMS or the load was incomplete; even in these case, the BMS should reject the code load.
This is all conjecture, of course; I may never know what actually happened.
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I just talked to the dealer about this and he told me that the debugging was all done remotely by Zero and that they did not identify a bad charger in the process. He didn't know whether his guys tried to charge with an external charger though.
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If you can get the contactor to close, you can charge the bike. Whether or not the BMS is in good shape to monitor the cells or enact a balance cycle is another deal. One step at a time, though.
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How do you force the contactor to close manually? I really appreciate you guys' help and I don't want to burden you too much since I have no experience working on Zero equipment (and don't have confidence in my abilities).
Since the BMS was just replaced, I assume it is in good working order and that the problem is in the bags of chemicals as Zero seems to have determined.
I guess I could disconnect the (hopefully) good battery and try to charge the remaining bad one - I should be able to hear the click if it does close. Are there any other relays in the system that could fool my ears?
I won't be able to do this until the weather improves enough that I can ride it home (I'm in Colorado).
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How do you force the contactor to close manually?
Simply turn the key on while charging. The OBC will normally close the contactor while charging even with the key out. But if they are using external charging, and not the OBC, the bike will NOT charge at all unless the bike key is on to close the contactor.
FWIW, I don't believe anything they did could ruin your battery.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The click of the contactor is unmistakable and impossible to miss in a quiet garage. It does seem unlikely it could dump so much charge quickly without the motor or controller overheating. There is hope!
I'd reiterate to others that one should never allow a dealer to update their firmware unless there is a clear, specific reason or major advantage, AND it's still under warranty. If a bike has been working perfectly for a period of years, an update is definitely NOT needed. Whether or not the update is the cause, it's an extra variable to confound things.
EVs are still experimental vehicles and it's a lot to get 8 years out of one. It's unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to warranty it indefinitely. I feel your loss, because I love mine, but it's at 7 years, and when it goes I'm not going to be too upset with Zero. But I do fault them for not being unable to diagnose major problems instantly and accurately from logs and diagnostic equipment. It's too dealer dependent. Someone like Auriga would do it well, but there's not enough of hims!
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I have mentioned this before, but my daughter's 2014 Zero S with Power Tank has never had any firmware updates since it left the factory and still runs as well and just about as far as my 2018 S with Power Tank, which has had every firmware update that Zero has ever offered for that model.
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If I understand your suggestion, I can plug in the on-board charger and should hear a click from the contactor on the "good" battery. If I then turn on the key, the contactor in the "bad" battery will be forced to close and I should hear that click. Otherwise either (1) the contactor is broken or (2) the "bad" contactor closed when I originally plugged in the charger but it was masked by the sound of the "good" contactor.
Is there a way to tell the difference between these two possibilities?
It occurs to me that I could do this with only the "bad" battery installed. Is that what you recommend?
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Ok we're getting some missing details added here. Didn't realize this was a modular FX. Each brick has its own BMS. Were both BMS units replaced? Can you key the bike on and have both contactors successfully close? If not, will they do it individually if you only have one module connected?
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Just one BMS was replaced. That battery is the one the dealer says won't take a charge now. Before the BMS replacement, he said it would not communicate.
When I get the bike back I will try keying it on, but I don't think I can tell by ear whether both contactors close since they seem to close simultaneously. Hopefully the "bad" battery will have enough left in it to operate the contactor when I remove the "good" battery.
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Just one BMS was replaced. That battery is the one the dealer says won't take a charge now. Before the BMS replacement, he said it would not communicate.
When I get the bike back I will try keying it on, but I don't think I can tell by ear whether both contactors close since they seem to close simultaneously. Hopefully the "bad" battery will have enough left in it to operate the contactor when I remove the "good" battery.
The double click can usually be heard, there is usually some difference. At least there is in my Zero SR with the Power Tank. And the timing between the two varies, sometimes more than a second difference, but usually a lot less, but still enough to notice.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah there's definitely an audible *ti-tink* of the two contactors clicking at nearly the same time. But it's easy enough to kick one battery out at a time and test as well. If only one clicks and operates the bike... well for now you've got half a battery at least and can use the bike to a degree.
If *both* batteries click then it is definitely possible to charge both. From there the question is, "is the BMS monitoring things like it should" which is hugely important.
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If it's a modular, why wouldn't you have tried charging it and running it with one battery at a time? Or did you and just not mention it?
Remember, you have to plug in the blank connector in place of the missing battery or it will NOT work.
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It's still at the dealer. I haven't had a day when it's safe to ride home (probably in 2 stages since the range is now half of what it was) yet; the roads are icy. I will try isolating the "bad" battery then. I'm very disappointed that Zero simply gave up and told me to buy a new battery; I expected more from them. I'm grateful to all the people offering advice here. It would be wonderful if you guys are right and the battery itself is salvageable.
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Darn, the dealer must be correct that one battery is just dead and a new BMS didn't help. Now I do wonder if a BMS firmware upgrade gone wrong could kill a battery. Maybe the battery got slowly drained too low. Maybe it could be resurrected using an external charger according to other threads on here.
Good luck! If you lived around here, I'd offer some help to get it back. Maybe something like this?:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276024611671?hash=item4044595357:g:ZKAAAOSw7lpj~j4v&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4N3Y24oPedPlnFfPnm1xEytiUf2jkEYh3ycPN%2BHPP8M0CpSzi27JKkhkPrnEwLkxyRTM2rUXR54K8f3DQ%2FlPqrwrqidzTAEL%2BRgjDGmbbRPlbMPyw1g1DcvfuBkZ2drAgEy2GshRiOnbcE%2FITELosGZpoLEbTgEAE%2Bhkp0xb5dsyzvQrft1JDpfBdex0A4cNDfLlGxRsONrqhiKwNsY%2FEJYBJ1Euc4EhZVPNFyxlpxHRVjZfIleMTKpBgXv4g5TjvMRCxl%2BatfKw%2F7Qx9c%2BvuI6xTR2sV18zjur6nO5Ont%2Be%7Ctkp%3ABFBM_O_9-Ypj
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A battery CAN be resurrected if you took it to zero. I have done it several times BUT the chemistry is crucial. LiPO's are going to be very touchy to refurb, and there is a BIG chance you have dendrites which will soon short the battery out and cause it to go woof on you. You can hook them to an external charger and slowly bring the voltage up to where a regular charger will 'see' it and go to work on it, and then give it a gentle charge until it's full.
How long it has been sitting at zero and age play a huge part on its reliability and safety afterwards too. If you like to tinker have at it, but to be totally honest, in my shed where I have 'those kind' of projects in a metal box is one thing, but under my ass running down the road... is another. if it does decide to go, it will do so quite thermally and with quite the display too !
Aaron
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There is absolutely no reason to assume the battery is below its standard 0% value. As a general rule, though, it's a very bad idea to try and bring a cell back that has dipped below 2.00vdc. On a Zero that would be a pack reading of 56vdc or below.
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+1 What Morgan said, if the battery is defective and you somehow managed to get it to zero volts. You are playing woth fire LITERALLY by trying to resurrect it and expect it to be viable / safe.
A LiPO is a nasty beast with a ton of power density. The Ferric chemistries you see in the home batteries, the solar storage, the solar walls, are a different world. They are much more forgiving when you abuse them, and a LOT L O T less likely to ignite when abused. Because of the way the LiPO's work, they create crystalline tendrils inside the cells that like to grow and short across the plates. Once that happens, you get a ton of heat as that cell that just shorted expends it's load thru that short. Things melt, things burn, this causes a HUGE short now.
They will hiss, and then flame, because one of the byproducts of that is Hydrogen gas, which you just heated to hundreds of degrees and are throwing sparks at it from an internally shorting battery. The rest of the batteries in the circuit will now want to dump their load into that dead cell since it's a strong current pathway, not to mention the 1700 degrees plus that thing will burn at once ignited, the heat transfers to the pouches next to it, they melt, they short, and they sympathetically deflagrate. Thermal runaway happens fast.
Please be VERY careful if you genuinely have to rezz a totally dead LiPo. Sometimes it isn't worth it
aaron
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While it still wouldn't be advisable to try and save it if it's gone too low, Zeros don't use lipo's
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What chemistry do they use? The ferro while MUCH safer does not have nearly the energy density of the Lip's though.
Aaron
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Lithium iron phosphate, or LiFePO. Zero has said that they purposely gave up energy density for durability.
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Thank you all for the advice. If the battery is indeed below 56V, I'll be safe and give up on it rather than try to resurrect it. However, if I find a bad contactor or something, I'll try to fix it.
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If it's at like 53 volts or 50 volts, you should be safe, go easy but if it's sitting at like 15 volts or zero then you trashed them pretty badly.
I had some Iron phos batteries that got sucked down to zero because the first run of them they hooked the internal heater up apparently on the power side of the bms, so on a cold day the fuckers sucked to zero, NOT happy about that, after much complaining and a few threats they sent me new batteries that were built properly this time. Told me to keep the old ones they were not going to pay to ship them back, opened them up rewired them PROPERLY and used a standard lead acid charger on them in recovery mode to slow charge them up to a voltage that the normal Lith charger would start on them, did a few full cycles on them and a good balance and they seen no worse for the wear.
LithPhospate is much less susceptable to thermal runaway and some of the issues the LiPo have, and can take quite a bit more abuse than the lipo's.
Determine for sure, what chemistry you have, and what the voltage really is on them, and we can go from there. PS if you have an old fashioned ie CHEAP battery charger for 12 volts that is NOT one of the digital pieces of crap, you may be able to use that. you'll need access to the battery cell hookups / bus.
Even if the battery runs at 56 volts, you can in theory break it into 12 volt sections for charging each 'segment' to resurrect them enough to the point the normal charger will recognize them.
More later, Lets see what you really have first.
Aaron
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According to this site: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery/Cells the 2015 FX uses NMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt).
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Well, it might be safe to play with if you have to revive it.
https://dragonflyenergy.com/types-of-lithium-batteries-guide/
https://www.grepow.com/blog/different-types-of-lithium-polymer-batteries.html
just some more general battery info
Aaron
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I got the bike back today from the dealer. The situation is much less dire than I had understood it to be. Unfortunately, all the information I have about the incident is third hand, but I think I have a better understanding of it now.
Since I got home without incident, the problem that stranded me after the firmware update seems to have been fixed when the battery management board was replaced.
The state of the "bad" battery as I understand it from the dealer is that it is charging, but that the bike cannot balance the two batteries with each other because the "bad" battery is so much weaker than the "good" battery. Apparently Zero told the dealer that the "bad" battery had been degrading for a while (as determined from the logs). The dealer indicated that the bike may be able to get some use out of the "bad" battery, but he did not know how much.
Tracking the battery usage on the way home from the dealer seems to indicate that the battery behavior is roughly comparable to the behavior before the firmware update.
The dealer also said that they had spent upwards of twenty hours with Zero working this all through. I did not owe the dealer anything when I picked up the bike. Hopefully the dealer is being reimbursed for their time.
To their credit, Zero did spend a lot of effort on this and it looks like the bike was returned in roughly the condition I left it in. They paid to have the battery management board replaced, which fixed the problem that stranded me. In the end, the "bad" battery was not "destroyed", but just weak.
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Well that's interesting, because the batteries are balanced separately because they each have their own BMS. You could run the bike on just one battery for five years and then go and buy a brand new second one and of course they would be in different states of wear. Zero designed the bike with this use case in mind (I'm pretty sure they've said the "buy small now, upgrade later" line before) so they bike should function fine with two mismatched batteries. You'll just get the performance of the weakest battery, i.e. if one of them has 80% the capacity of a new one then you'll get 80% of the capacity of two batteries even in the second one is 100%.
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That makes sense to me. Unfortunately, as I said, I get information third-hand and could be mis-understanding some things as well.
Funny (sad) aside: when I got home and connected my phone to download logs, it told me there is a new code update. I think I'll be ignoring these reminders.