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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JJ2525 on November 15, 2023, 09:22:37 AM
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Just picked up a lightly used S, haven't ridden a Zero in years but excited to be back in the game. I have a few questions about charging...
1) I plugged the bike in at 46%, the dash timer said 3 hours to full, I came back in 3 hours, it had added 50 minutes, I came back after 50 minutes, and there were now 12 left. Anything to be concerned about here with the charging timer not being accurate?
2) Is the charging cord (specifically the end that goes into the bike) supposed to get like, really hot? I've charged it twice and each time that end is incredibly warm.
3) Is there any definitive guidance on which end to plug in/unplug first? I've plugged the bike end first, then disconnected the wall plug first when unplugging (and there's been a big spark at the wall). Does this really not matter?
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-The charge timer is very basic, there's no averaging over time (well, maybe like ten seconds) so any variance in charging current will significant alter the estimated time to completion. You can monitor this in the app and see it go from as high as 1500W to as low as like 1000W. It will tend to stay at the high side the majority of the time and only briefly drop so if you want a rough idea of how fast you'll charge then just assume a constant 1400W or something like that. Then there are also factors that can cause the charge current to drop over time such as heat, so you could start off high but then it tails off closer to the end. And finally once it's hit 100% it will carry on going for a little bit to balance the cells, I don't remember if this is included in the time estimate.
-If you're in a 110/120V country then the plug getting hot is "normal". The C13/14 connector is only designed for 10A but you'll be putting like 13A through it, somehow in America they're rated at 15A like the geographical location magically makes them able to handle more current.
-I would plug the bike in first. If you don't have switched outlets (another yay for America) then they should be designed to handle being plugged in with a load. If it does end up causing some damage over time then an outlet is cheaper and easier to replace than the charge port on the bike.
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The spark at the wall is definitely a very bad thing, stop doing that. I leave my charger connected 24/7 and just connect the bike when needed. Always plug the outlet in first, bike second. The J1772 connector is NOT energized when it's not being used, and has intelligent management to make sure it will never spark. The button/lever on it tells it to stop charging when pressed, and there is no power at all on the connector until the bike sends a signal to start providing power.
I have a 2023 SR/S and the timer seems accurate when using an L2 charger, I have never watched it on L1.
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Very hot is a very BAD thing. You are either burning stuff up or are getting ready to. The heat will travel both ways too, down the wire AND into whatever the wire is attached to, and it will eventually BTFU.
Big spark typically on something like that = big inductive kick which also = VERY BAD !!! Along with that big kick is a big voltage spike, that has to be absorbed somewhere.
If you must, the plug, should have like a disconnect lever/ handle on it, it has a micro switch in it. Pressing that momentarily should send a signal to the controller that the plug is getting ready to be removed, or 'general fault' and that should cause it to cut the current itself without breaking any connections. (although it's probably breaking the connection internally by opening a small relay, which means that flash is now on the relay fingers), (can pretty much guarantee it's not programmed to open on the zero pass), anyways. This should turn off the current flow so you can safely remove the plug without causing an arc like that, which can potentially damage things.
Id worry more about the heat at the plug, seriously that is BAD. You might want to cut the amp's down a bit until you get a new plug head on or figure out why it's so hot.
Aaron
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Thanks all for the replies. I'm a little unclear because TheRan, you said to plug the bike in first and SwampNut, you said to do the wall first.
I'm just using the stock Zero charging cable with this extension cord - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QPMPMLN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details - should I get a different extension cord? Should I get a new charging cable? If so can someone direct me to the most appropriate one to buy?
I don't know anything about electricity, cutting amperage etc. and I am charging at a shared outlet not in my home, but am a bit concerned as my previous Zero didn't have the issue with the timer not being accurate or the heat.
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The opinion about plugging in the bike first appears to be based on an invalid assumption that the J-1772 connector is energized at all times and will arc. That is not the case. You can stick your fingers in those pins and nothing happens. EV chargers need to negotiate power with the EV before they will even supply any power at all. And all EVs ramp their power up, it's not just a click-on kind of thing. You can google the SAE J spec if you want to confirm what I'm saying.
What is the brand and model of your charge cord? Zero has shipped at least three; some seem to have a current limiter, I think.
The timer may need time to learn, not sure. I'd be concerned if it stayed inaccurate long term.
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You guys are assuming he has a gen 3 bike, he has an S so unless the brand new models are already on the used market then he's gen 2.
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Yes this is a 2021 S model, I am not charging via J-1772, just regular 110v wall outlet.
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That's why I'm asking about the specific cord and specifying the connector. I've seen an old S charging in public, but it had a Charge Tank option. I don't know if that's the only way they get a J connector.
"Charging on a regular outlet" can happen with a J connector. That's how I charge.
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The extension cord I am using is https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QPMPMLN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
The actual charging cable says YUNG LI 15 A 125 V SJTOW 14AWG
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The C13/C14 charging inlet of Zero bikes seems under-rated. Even on my FX which charges at only 650W, the receptacle on the bike gets too hot to touch. The S is charging at nearly double that. I'm surprised that the burning hot inlets have not been a bigger problem for Zero warranties.
When you plug in the bike, it doesn't matter electrically whether you plug in the wall or bike first. However, wall outlets are not generally intended for a large number of plug cycles and may get loose over time, so the bike should be favored. Try to get a good, solid placement before the contactor clicks. There is a delay of a second or two before the contactor closes and current starts flowing.
When you unplug the bike after it is FINISHED CHARGING, again it does not matter because no current is flowing. But again, there is no reason to unplug at the wall. But if the bike is still drawing current, you're going to get a damaging arc at either the motorcycle or the wall. This is probably not good for the Green Watt charger either. They are notorious for burning out internally, so it's not worth risking.
Personally, if forced to unplug while current is flowing (which is rare), I'll pick the wall every time. Replacing an outlet is something I can deal with more easily, whereas a new charge port is much more expensive and much harder to replace. Another option is to use a 1500W-rated smart switch at the wall.
I spray my Zero plug receptacle with WD-40 once a year to keep the electrical resistance of the contacts as low as possible. WD-40 is good for this. I've known that since I was a kid and used to debounce TRS-80 keyboards with it. If any charring occurs on the metal contacts, then the resistance starts to increase, and even a tiny amount of resistance will dissipate large amounts of power, causing more charring. That snowballs until it finally melts things.
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Wire yourself a 240-volt receptacle, use that for most of your charging, and the C13 receptacle just does fine. The 7-amp draw you get at 240 is well within the 10-amp rating of the C13 receptacle. If you want reliable charging on 120 volts, you'll want to make yourself a 12 AWG charging cable. Technically, a 16 AWG is allllmost adequate for the charging amps at 120 volts (about 13 continuous duty where 16 AWG is technically good for 12 continuous), but due to the overtaxing of the C13 connector, you want the extra copper in the cable to conduct heat away. Shy of a bad connection, you won't have a problem overheating the C13 on 120 volts if your charging cable is 12 AWG. Many, many people do just fine with smaller cords like 16 and 14 AWG, but you can find a few failures here and there ... and stories like yours.
On a related note, and I think someone in a previous post hit on this, heat generation will be exacerbated by a poor connection. So if the terminals are worn or corroded, you'll want to address that as well.
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1) I plugged the bike in at 46%, the dash timer said 3 hours to full, I came back in 3 hours, it had added 50 minutes, I came back after 50 minutes, and there were now 12 left. Anything to be concerned about here with the charging timer not being accurate?
The time is calculated from the charge rate at the current time. So as the charge rate drops, it takes more time than previous claimed on the meter. IOW, it is 100% accurate for what it is doing at the time, but as the charge rate drops it takes more time at the current charge rate. It is expected unless the charge current does not change and it does change, especially near the end of the charge.
Always expect it to take longer than the time shown.
However, if it changes to be extra longer than normal, it means your charging power is dropping faster than normal.
-Don- Mission, TX
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WD-40 might not be the best thing to spray down into the electrical contact area. It's not the same stuff it was years ago, and can be a dirt magnet. It dries up and turns into a sticky mess, with all the dirt/dust and crap it managed to attract in the meantime.
If stuff is dirty / corroded (very bad situation) or just tarnished, get some good contact cleaner and a little pencil eraser or brush. Id have a small vacuum too, you don't want to scrub crap off and drop it into the electronics now do you? Give it a good spray and rub and clean the contacts up.
Charging time, it might need to learn - but also, you don't know how the bike was treated before you got it, or how long it sat. You may have had a battery or string way out of whack, and it needed a lot of time to try to re balance it. It won't know this until it actually gets to the point where the battery is at the balancing phase, ie typically the top 5 percent or so of the charge. Charging times tend to be calculated by how many amps are being drawn at the moment, and will constantly change as the charging profile changes. This is just like the 'estimated range left', reading, and should be treated the same, as just a recommendation, an edumucated guess, and not set in stone.
Once you've gotten a couple of good solid charges under your belt, it should get a bit more accurate hopefully.
Aaron
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Balancing is a very good point. Although new, I've had mine hit 99% and stall for a bit, obviously balancing. Usually after the type of ride that could end with blue and red lights.
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Sounds like it’s time to changeout the bikes charge socket.
Here’s my changeout story.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10514.0
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This topic comes up every so often, but it's okay because some things need repeating -
When I first got my "S" the previous owner was charging the bike with a 16 gauge computer cord. After a very short time charging, it was too hot to touch. I replaced the 16 with a 14 gauge cord, and it was still hotter than I thought it should be, so I replaced it with a 7 foot 12 gauge cord. A network switch turns it on and off, and after six hours the cord is only warm to the touch. It's scheduled to charge from midnight to six in the morning, cuz I get an EV discount. If it's above 30 % at midnight, six hours is a full charge. If it needs longer to charge it can pick it up the next night. It all seems to balance out. I also keep an extra 10 foot 12 gauge charging cord with the bike just in case I need a few electrons to get back home. Just like a 20 amp outlet holds the plug much tighter, a 12 gauge cord is quite firm on the bikes charging pins. A tight connection equals less heat. Here’s a link for the cool cord that will solve your hot problem.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078V9K14V?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1