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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: mdjak1 on November 08, 2023, 12:41:53 AM
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Latest email from Zero announced the S, DS, and DSR are now all on the latest platform. Smallest battery size is 14.4 for the S and DS. 15.6 for the DSR. Upgraded motor for the DSR.
https://zeromotorcycles.com/
https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-dsr
https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-ds
https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-s
Main downside, the gen 2 models were lighter. So nothing inbetween the FX/FXE models and the S, DS, SR, DSR models.
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It looks like they retired the 2022-3-style SR in favor of the new S? From the specs, the new S model looks the same as the 2022-3 SR except for the 14.4 Kw battery. There isn't any mention of the new S being Cypher Store "upgradeable" into an SR/F. Perhaps they're just dropping the unlockable content idea completely...
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S and DS are pretty interesting for $15k and $16k. S has more practical usability than the Livewire S2 Del Mar but not as sleek or well-handling from early reports, and the DS should offer better dirt-biased ADV performance than the Experia at a much lower price if the suspension setup is similarly-capable as the DSR/X.
The DSR is too close in price to the full DSR/X to be compelling, IMO, but the downgrades also seem fairly mild compared to the X so maybe some people will go for it. It has the same problem as the SR, SR/F, and SR/S for me, which is that the $20k+ price puts it in range of Energica's US pricing for its CCS-equipped 21.5 and 22.5 kWh models.
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It looks like they retired the 2022-3-style SR in favor of the new S? From the specs, the new S model looks the same as the 2022-3 SR except for the 14.4 Kw battery. There isn't any mention of the new S being Cypher Store "upgradeable" into an SR/F. Perhaps they're just dropping the unlockable content idea completely...
I hadn't even noticed that the SR is gone (for the United States) . So they go from S with 14.4 battery and 75-7 motor to SR/F with 17.3 battery and 75-10 motor. Odd that they still have a DSR with a 15.6 battery and 75-10X motor.
And what is the difference between the 75-10 (on the street models) and 75-10X on the DSR and DSRX?
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The DSR is too close in price to the full DSR/X to be compelling, IMO, but the downgrades also seem fairly mild compared to the X so maybe some people will go for it. It has the same problem as the SR, SR/F, and SR/S for me, which is that the $20k+ price puts it in range of Energica's US pricing for its CCS-equipped 21.5 and 22.5 kWh models.
Looking at the UK site the DS is £16.2k and the DSR is £17k, so basically no point in the DS unless you're stuck on an A1 licence. The DSR/X is £21k. The old DS made sense compared to the DSR as it could be much lighter with the 7.2 battery and I'm pretty sure it was a decent amount cheaper, like £2k at least. I certainly wouldn't replace my old DS with a new one. An S as a second longer range bike though might have been tempting, but again an older S is lighter and a lot cheaper and with the money saved slap a charge thank on it and charge twice as fast.
One curious thing I do notice in the specs of the Euro S and DS, the sustained speed is now down to 65mph (I think it was 70 before, maybe 75). That would definitely rule either of them out for me, the main reason I'd want either is for those longer journeys which would be on motorways and I wouldn't want to be on a bike that couldn't even hold the speed limit (nor pay £16k for the pleasure).
And what is the difference between the 75-10 (on the street models) and 75-10X on the DSR and DSRX?
I thought it may have been down to the wider belt, with a wider pulley and perhaps a longer shaft, however the DS has the wider belt but a non-X motor. It looks like it may be their designation for the "torque optimised" motors.
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Comparing the DS with the DSR and DSR/X from the figures Zero Motorcycles published on their website.
DS = 239 kg
Charger = 3 kW
Power = 45 kW
Torque = 132 Nm
DSR = 242 kg
Charger = 3.3 kW
Power = 52 kW
Torque = 170 Nm
DSR/X = 247 kg
Charger = 6.6 kW
Power = 75 kW
Torque = 229 Nm
The additional 6 kg going from DSR to DSR/X must come from the additional 3 kW charging unit, Just like was already the case between SR/F and SR/F Premium. But I cannot yet explain the 3 kg increase going from DS to DSR.
The rest of the differences are all configured by software, in my opinion, and they all have the same 75-10X motor as last year. The micro torque jump going from 225 to 229 nM might simply be the result from software or electronic optimization, just like they did with the 10% increase in charging power last year.
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The DS doesn't have the X motor, it's not even a 10 but a 7 which means it's 7cm wide instead of 10cm so that's going to account for some of the weight loss. I don't know if the chargers are the same on the DS and DSR and the latter just has that extra 0.3kW unlocked, but if not the former may have a slightly lighter one. Also the DS is only a 14.4 instead of the 15.6, again I don't know if they're physically different batteries or it's just software limitations. For some reason the cypher store page on the site no longer allows you to choose a model to see which options are available for it.
Also for the weight difference between the DSR and DSR/X, the latter also has spoked instead of cast wheels which presumably are a little heavier. The ABS system on the DSR/X is also more advanced so may contain different components with more weight.
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Not so sure about that theory.
The weight for the SR/F equipped with the 75/10 motor is 227kg,
The weight for the SR also equipped with the 75/10 motor is 223kg,
and the weight for the S with a 75/7 motor is 223kg too .....
For all the models, the battery is labeled + so, it is probably a 17.3 down stepped to 15.3 and 14.4 through software.
I wonder if the 3kW charger is a 6kW also down stepped by software means ...
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Here is Motorcycle.com's take on the new Zero lineup: https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/zero-motorcycles-unveils-revamped-2024-product-line-44596357
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Here is another article regarding the 2024 Zero lineup. Those EU prices sure don't look all that inexpensive to me: https://thepack.news/zero-motorcycles-unveils-2024-new-models-at-eicma-in-milan/
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Price is still their #1 problem. Producing neutered machines based on identical hardware for less money just tells me that they're actually gouging people for the top end machines.
Cas :)
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Price is still their #1 problem. Producing neutered machines based on identical hardware for less money just tells me that they're actually gouging people for the top end machines.
Cas :)
It does seem that way. :(
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Anyone know if there are changes/differences between the 2023 DSR/X and the 2024 DSR/X? There are still some pretty decent deals on the 2023 models lingering on dealer's floors.
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Anyone know if there are changes/differences between the 2023 DSR/X and the 2024 DSR/X? There are still some pretty decent deals on the 2023 models lingering on dealer's floors.
From what I can tell, it's the same. Not sure if we are allowed to link, but looks like a Zero dealer in Orange, CA has a demo bike at a great price: https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/mcd/d/orange-super-sale-2023-zero-motorcycles/7675331213.html
No affiliation with them and never worked with them, but seems like a solid price.
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Anyone know if there are changes/differences between the 2023 DSR/X and the 2024 DSR/X? There are still some pretty decent deals on the 2023 models lingering on dealer's floors.
From what I can tell, it's the same. Not sure if we are allowed to link, but looks like a Zero dealer in Orange, CA has a demo bike at a great price: https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/mcd/d/orange-super-sale-2023-zero-motorcycles/7675331213.html
No affiliation with them and never worked with them, but seems like a solid price.
So it seems that is the difference between the 75-10 and the 75-10X. I found the 2023 specs on the wayback machine for the DSR/X and it has the same 75-10X motor as the 2024.
The 2023 DSR/X bikes seem to primarily have cast alloy wheels. The 2024 DSR/X is shown having spoked tubeless wheels.
There is no mention of the "Mudport Wheel Sprocket" for the 2023 that is mentioned on the 2024.
I think they also added LED turn and hazard indicators on the 2024. The 2023 manual shows replacement bulbs for the turn signals.
Beyond those items, I didn't find any other differences.
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I think they also added LED turn and hazard indicators on the 2024. The 2023 manual shows replacement bulbs for the turn signals.
Where did you see that? Using the "Model Builder" the past few minutes on their website, LED turn signals are still a $85.00 option in the US and twice that money (€169.00 !?) in Europe. This is just ridiculous ...
https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-dsrx
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So it seems that is the difference between the 75-10 and the 75-10X. I found the 2023 specs on the wayback machine for the DSR/X and it has the same 75-10X motor as the 2024.
The 2023 DSR/X bikes seem to primarily have cast alloy wheels. The 2024 DSR/X is shown having spoked tubeless wheels.
There is no mention of the "Mudport Wheel Sprocket" for the 2023 that is mentioned on the 2024.
I think they also added LED turn and hazard indicators on the 2024. The 2023 manual shows replacement bulbs for the turn signals.
Beyond those items, I didn't find any other differences.
I think they both still come stock with cast alloy wheels, if you use the configuration tool, it looks like it's an option to add them.
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I think they also added LED turn and hazard indicators on the 2024. The 2023 manual shows replacement bulbs for the turn signals.
Where did you see that? Using the "Model Builder" the past few minutes on their website, LED turn signals are still a $85.00 option in the US and twice that money (€169.00 !?) in Europe. This is just ridiculous ...
https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-dsrx
That is in the accessories page and is probably a leftover error from 2023.
The website description shows this in the FACE/HEADLIGHT section:
Light the way
See the road ahead like never before and ensure it always sees you with the custom-made full LED headlight and LED taillight with opalescent light-pipe for unrivaled lateral visibility. The 2024 DSR/X also comes with LED turn and hazard indicators fully standard so you can be confident your intentions are broadcast as far as possible in any low light situations.
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So it seems that is the difference between the 75-10 and the 75-10X. I found the 2023 specs on the wayback machine for the DSR/X and it has the same 75-10X motor as the 2024.
The 2023 DSR/X bikes seem to primarily have cast alloy wheels. The 2024 DSR/X is shown having spoked tubeless wheels.
There is no mention of the "Mudport Wheel Sprocket" for the 2023 that is mentioned on the 2024.
I think they also added LED turn and hazard indicators on the 2024. The 2023 manual shows replacement bulbs for the turn signals.
Beyond those items, I didn't find any other differences.
I think they both still come stock with cast alloy wheels, if you use the configuration tool, it looks like it's an option to add them.
I don't see any option on the USA version of the website showing the spoke wheels as an option for the 2024 DSR/X. All the photos of the 2024 DSR/X show spoke wheels. No option for cast wheels either. And the website reads:
Rubber side down
The DSR/X can navigate virtually any obstacle in its way thanks to its incredibly light and durable spoked wheels, 19” up front and 17” in the rear. These come wrapped in Pirelli Scorpion Trail II tires for uniformly excellent performance on all surface types. However, the indomitable Pirelli Scorpion Rally STR tires are available for those riders who want to upgrade their DSR/X into a fully trail-rated off-road monster.
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I don't see any option on the USA version of the website showing the spoke wheels as an option for the 2024 DSR/X. All the photos of the 2024 DSR/X show spoke wheels. No option for cast wheels either. And the website reads:
Rubber side down
The DSR/X can navigate virtually any obstacle in its way thanks to its incredibly light and durable spoked wheels, 19” up front and 17” in the rear. These come wrapped in Pirelli Scorpion Trail II tires for uniformly excellent performance on all surface types. However, the indomitable Pirelli Scorpion Rally STR tires are available for those riders who want to upgrade their DSR/X into a fully trail-rated off-road monster.
Their configuration tool isn't great, when you go to 'Design' you can use your scroll wheel to scroll down. The wire wheel option is in that section.
(https://i.imgur.com/yBDysPT.png)
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I don't see any option on the USA version of the website showing the spoke wheels as an option for the 2024 DSR/X. All the photos of the 2024 DSR/X show spoke wheels. No option for cast wheels either. And the website reads:
Rubber side down
The DSR/X can navigate virtually any obstacle in its way thanks to its incredibly light and durable spoked wheels, 19” up front and 17” in the rear. These come wrapped in Pirelli Scorpion Trail II tires for uniformly excellent performance on all surface types. However, the indomitable Pirelli Scorpion Rally STR tires are available for those riders who want to upgrade their DSR/X into a fully trail-rated off-road monster.
Their configuration tool isn't great, when you go to 'Design' you can use your scroll wheel to scroll down. The wire wheel option is in that section.
(https://i.imgur.com/yBDysPT.png)
Pretty sure that is a remnant from the 2023 model configuration or they intend for it to be for the DS/DSR. The website clearly says wire wheels on the DSR/X.
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Pretty sure that is a remnant from the 2023 model configuration or they intend for it to be for the DS/DSR. The website clearly says wire wheels on the DSR/X.
I hope you're correct, gives a bit more justification to the price tag.
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Pretty sure that is a remnant from the 2023 model configuration or they intend for it to be for the DS/DSR. The website clearly says wire wheels on the DSR/X.
I hope you're correct, gives a bit more justification to the price tag.
$3,000 more for the 2X faster charging, slightly higher kWh, higher power controller and spoke wheels. The difference should be more than enough to convince buyers to step up to the DSR/X compared to a DSR.
The bigger price difference is the DS to DSR. That is $4000. The DSR is only 10% faster charging, slightly higher kWh, larger motor with higher power controller. But both have cast wheels. The DS is probably the better buy of the two.
I wouldn't be surprised if Zero drops the DSR in 2025 in the USA like they dropped the SR for 2024. And the S at $14,995 is a really good buy for 2024 too.
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That pricing is basically whack in the opposite direction to here in the UK. The DSR is the equivalent of less than $1k more than the DS, while the DSR/X is nearly $5k more than the DSR. I'd say the upgrades are worth maybe half of that.
EDIT: Also you yanks get a bit more power and speed from your DS so that makes an even better value.
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you know... the charger gives you 15 amps, at least on the ribelle. that's 15A at whatever voltage you are putting in.
for 100 dollars, maybe less if you get an old one off e bay, get a rheostat and crank the bitch up to 270 volts or whatever your charger can max out at for input. That'll throw some extra kw your direction!
Aaron
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Price is still their #1 problem. Producing neutered machines based on identical hardware for less money just tells me that they're actually gouging people for the top end machines.
Cas :)
Charging is their #1 problem, from my point of view.
- Energica is 20-80% in 40 minutes
- Zero is 1.4 hours (95% charged) with the rapid charger
Zero say the charging time is linear, so lets ratio that: 95%/80% = 1.18, so ...
- Zero is 1.4/1.18 = 1.19 hours (80% charged) = 71 minutes
The difference between sitting for a coffee and cupcake for 40 minutes compared to 71 minutes is huge.
Even if they gave away the rapid charger for free it's still a fail.
Re-arranging the pricing deckchairs won't fix that.
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Price is still their #1 problem. Producing neutered machines based on identical hardware for less money just tells me that they're actually gouging people for the top end machines.
Cas :)
Charging is their #1 problem, from my point of view.
- Energica is 20-80% in 40 minutes
- Zero is 1.4 hours (95% charged) with the rapid charger
Zero say the charging time is linear, so lets ratio that: 95%/80% = 1.18, so ...
- Zero is 1.4/1.18 = 1.19 hours (80% charged) = 71 minutes
The difference between sitting for a coffee and cupcake for 40 minutes compared to 71 minutes is huge.
Even if they gave away the rapid charger for free it's still a fail.
Re-arranging the pricing deckchairs won't fix that.
Being realistic I don't think many people are actually charging their bikes while out on the road, there are more people being put off by the price than the slower charging. For those that do charge when out riding it's 1.1 hours to 95%, which they won't actually be doing so in reality it should be under an hour which isn't that bad every now and then. Or if they're willing to wait like 20 minutes or so then they can add a decent amount of range to what they'd otherwise get from a 100% charge.
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I've got the fast charger, and I've done 15,000 miles in the last two and a half years or so (ok only 2 really as it was broken for 6 months), and I've used the fast charging in anger on about 10 trips. 95% of my mileage is comfortably inside my 100-ish mile round trip radius, and this is probably the case for a large number of potential buyers who would be otherwise well-served by the platform, were it not for the fact it costs about 50% more than anyone sane is willing to pay for one.
Cas :)
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That pricing is basically whack in the opposite direction to here in the UK. The DSR is the equivalent of less than $1k more than the DS, while the DSR/X is nearly $5k more than the DSR. I'd say the upgrades are worth maybe half of that.
EDIT: Also you yanks get a bit more power and speed from your DS so that makes an even better value.
Wow! I just looked at the UK prices. Only £800.00 MSRP to go from an A1 license legal DS to the much more powerful and larger battery DSR. In the UK the DSR is a better purchase than the DS (unless you must have an A1 bike). Even in Germany the price increase from a DS to a DSR is only €1000. Kind of strange that in the USA the price bump from DS to DSR is $4000.
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The 2024 FX/FXE seem to be mentioned but largely glossed over on every review site. I suppose that's because little has changed including the 7.2 kWh capacity. However, Zero now claims 102 miles in the city vs. 91 miles for previous years. I wonder if the battery is different, or some other efficiency gained, or if the benchmark changed.
I always thought I'd want to upgrade my '16 FX once the range exceeded 100 miles. However, I only use it in the suburbs and get 50-60 miles over 2 hours. I realized I don't really care to ride it more than 2 hours anyway. After 5 years, the novelty sort of wore off.