ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 21, 2023, 08:14:28 PM
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Kawasaki has announced their two new "125cc-class" production electric motorcycles to be marketed in Europe. Here is the news, including full specifications - except for pricing: https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/new-model-preview/2024-kawasaki-ninja-e-1-and-z-e-1-announced-for-europe-44594830
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Garbage specs, honestly they need to be even cheaper than their 125 counterparts to sell and I can't see that happening.
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Holy shit I literally burst out laughing and had to take a break from reading ...
6.7hp pfwoar!
3kWh (with both batteries) but it still takes hours to charge.
The faster of the two can achieve the dizzying heights of ... 55mph! (Ok, there's a 15s boost mode up to ... 65!)
This is ... sabotage, this is deliberately bad, this is actually an attempt to make electric motorbikes look bad because who in their right mind puts out specs like that and calls it good?
To be fair to it the peak power is 12.1 but with such a big gap to continuous you are not gonna get that for long, possibly only for that boost mode. For reference my first bike was a 125 V-Twin from over 20 years ago that had the max A1 power (15hp) and could do 70-75 depending on conditions despite being a big jumped up wannabe adventure bike. I would say pitting it against one of these things would be like kicking puppies were it not for the substantial torque difference but I don't think anyone will care about that if you're not even able to hold 60mph. Like I've ridden my Ribelle in eco mode and topping out at 55 is not a happy place.
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I was just talking to someone else about this and I was like "the range might be alright since they're light and weedy ..."
72km
WHAT?
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You have to look at this from a Japaneese mindset.
We live on an island, it's packed, and the streets are super crowded most the times.
Having a small bike that is light, and can weed me thru traffic to get from one business meeting to the next, and is really cheap, is a GOOD thing.
From an American POV, yah this thing is a toy we'd get our kids at easter time, but from a smaller / densly populated area POV, which would be MANY countries, this thing fits into a large demographic.
Think of it is a commuter vehicle for urban / dense urban get around, NOT a precision sports machine like an Energica would be viewed as.
Aaron
Edit: Ive driven in the dense japanese traffic before, and trust me I would NOT want to be humping my Ribelle in that stop and go ! or in ANY stop and go in any city really. A nice light bike that you can pick up by the handle, George Jetson style and walk across the street with is much better :D
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It's not that the specs make it unusable, it's comparable to bikes from the likes of Super Soco, Sur-ron, Nui, and many other scooters that are available. The thing is those are barely cheaper than the petrol 125s and hard enough to justify as it is, these bikes from Kawasaki will no doubt be even more expensive. You're not going to convince any teenager to pick one over a Ninja/Z125 (or the alternatives from other brands) that can go much further and faster for the same price or less, or get the daily commuters to pick one over a 125 scooter that's just as if not more practical.
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And then there is the issue of what resale and trade-in value will be when you want to upgrade your ride. Of course this will depend upon the MSRP of the Kawasaki e-1's, but I wouldn't bet that they will be less expensive than their ICE 400cc versions, which have a long track record of reliability and happy owners.
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You won't convince the teenager to buy one, but the parents who are buying the kid a bike, THEY are the ones who'd probably pick this over said ninja etc because it looks and sounds safer.
Aaron
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I don't think parents think like that... if they are remotely put off by safety, the kid doesn't get a bike, end of story.
These bikes from Kawasaki basically compete with 50cc machines over here in Europe, but will likely be over twice as expensive and I doubt they'll find much of a market. I am wondering exactly how the powers occupying the loftier offices at Honda, Yamaha, etc. haven't noticed what Zero are doing and reckoning perhaps they could be doing that too but cheaper and/or better.
Cas :)
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If these things are anywhere close to the A1 spec FXE in price it'll be a really hard sell in comparison. One thing Zero did right is make their A1 compliance fit just within the rules, continuous power less than 11kW/15hp and anything else goes, including peak power over the limit and more torque than any 125 can dream of.
The thing about these is no enthusiast is gonna want one and in Europe the moment you go beyond scoots most of the market is enthusiasts. A1 bikes (as opposed to scoots in the same category) are mainly bought by kids and learners who want to get a bigger bike eventually and are working within the licencing regime until they're allowed. They're never gonna be swayed by a less horsepower, more torque argument because while it works for a Ribelle where you don't notice below the ton anyway they're gonna walk the moment you say "top speed 55" and hit them with the awful range and charging specs. You can't pitch these things at people who want to learn and experience the joys and adventure of motorcycling with specs like that.
As for the Japan argument, Japan isn't a tiny island, it's the size of Britain and Ireland combined, you can go touring just within Japan itself. The article also gives the impression these were designed for Europe but expected to be available in other markets, the specs and description give the impression that these were built for markets where motorcycles are still the personal motor vehicle and being brought to Europe as an afterthought (except the price will inevitably be wrong for those markets). It doesn't line up.
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I don't think parents think like that... if they are remotely put off by safety, the kid doesn't get a bike, end of story.
These bikes from Kawasaki basically compete with 50cc machines over here in Europe, but will likely be over twice as expensive and I doubt they'll find much of a market. I am wondering exactly how the powers occupying the loftier offices at Honda, Yamaha, etc. haven't noticed what Zero are doing and reckoning perhaps they could be doing that too but cheaper and/or better.
Cas :)
Exactly. These are 50cc-class equivalent bikes except for the visual design. Not 125, let along 400. Top speed is insufficient for suburban commuting, which requires 70-75mph cruising (not top speed).
These aren't really motorcycles, but scooters in motorcycle clothing.
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3024 - I know the traditional Japanese manufacturers are late; but this seems a little harsh ;)
Anyways, the electricity of the bike seems to be designed around the two swap-able batteries. Those batteries are determined by a consortium of motorcycle manufacturers and are supposed to be swapped between models. Size of the batteries is limited by maximum weight, so everybody can handle these and charge them in a condo or office.
No doubt, the output of these batteries will limit the maximum current and thus the bike's performance.
For the European Union, they could even comply this bike in the 50cc class "L1e", where the mean power limit is 4kW (5.44 PS) with a top speed limit of 45km/h (28mph).
None of the swap-battery-bikes will ever compete with A1-licence Zeros.
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3024 - I know the traditional Japanese manufacturers are late; but this seems a little harsh ;)
Anyways, the electricity of the bike seems to be designed around the two swap-able batteries. Those batteries are determined by a consortium of motorcycle manufacturers and are supposed to be swapped between models. Size of the batteries is limited by maximum weight, so everybody can handle these and charge them in a condo or office.
No doubt, the output of these batteries will limit the maximum current and thus the bike's performance.
For the European Union, they could even comply this bike in the 50cc class "L1e", where the mean power limit is 4kW (5.44 PS) with a top speed limit of 45km/h (28mph).
None of the swap-battery-bikes will ever compete with A1-licence Zeros.
That's exactly what I expect -- these will be L1e-category "bikes" (more like pedal-less mopeds). The consortium's batteries (all the Japanese Big 4, Piaggio and oddly KTM, IIRC) are intended for urban scooters (not stand-up scooters), primarily, and are also thought out to enable battery-swap automated kiosks for convenient scooter rental.
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Here's a review along with a price, £7800 (£7300 after a government incentive). I thought it was going to be more like £5k. £2800 more than a Super Soco TC Max, which is comparable to Kawasaki's top 125s in price, is never going to sell. I seriously can't imagine a single person buying one when anyone with that much to spend would surely think more logically. Hell you could easily get a lightly used 11kW Zero for that much. Also it's uncomfortable and cramped with poor suspension, tyres, and brakes. Probably the only good thing about it is a 4 year warranty with 5 years on the batteries.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/z-e-1/2024/
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Here's a review along with a price, £7800 (£7300 after a government incentive). I thought it was going to be more like £5k. £2800 more than a Super Soco TC Max, which is comparable to Kawasaki's top 125s in price, is never going to sell. I seriously can't imagine a single person buying one when anyone with that much to spend would surely think more logically. Hell you could easily get a lightly used 11kW Zero for that much. Also it's uncomfortable and cramped with poor suspension, tyres, and brakes. Probably the only good thing about it is a 4 year warranty with 5 years on the batteries.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/z-e-1/2024/
I agree. I think the 400cc twin ICE versions of these bikes sell for around $6-$7K USD (depending upon the model and if they have ABS or not) in the U.S. Those bikes have a top speed of over 100 mph, are very reliable and can be repaired at every Kawasaki dealership, most independent shops, and by many owners in their garage. I have a feeling that will not be the case with the EV versions.
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Here's a review along with a price, £7800 (£7300 after a government incentive). I thought it was going to be more like £5k. £2800 more than a Super Soco TC Max, which is comparable to Kawasaki's top 125s in price, is never going to sell. I seriously can't imagine a single person buying one when anyone with that much to spend would surely think more logically. Hell you could easily get a lightly used 11kW Zero for that much. Also it's uncomfortable and cramped with poor suspension, tyres, and brakes. Probably the only good thing about it is a 4 year warranty with 5 years on the batteries.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/z-e-1/2024/
Disappointing, I know it's a first try but it's a dismal one.
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Here's a review along with a price, £7800 (£7300 after a government incentive). I thought it was going to be more like £5k. £2800 more than a Super Soco TC Max, which is comparable to Kawasaki's top 125s in price, is never going to sell. I seriously can't imagine a single person buying one when anyone with that much to spend would surely think more logically. Hell you could easily get a lightly used 11kW Zero for that much. Also it's uncomfortable and cramped with poor suspension, tyres, and brakes. Probably the only good thing about it is a 4 year warranty with 5 years on the batteries.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/z-e-1/2024/
Disappointing, I know it's a first try but it's a dismal one.
First try? Kawasaki showed a BEV motorcycle concept back in 2013 (a variable rider-geometry 3-wheeler)
https://youtu.be/NFJPNBg0y0w (https://youtu.be/NFJPNBg0y0w)
and patents & trademarks as far back as 2015.
https://www.webbikeworld.com/kawasaki-plans-electric-motorcycle/ (https://www.webbikeworld.com/kawasaki-plans-electric-motorcycle/)
And as recently as 2 years ago, they were talking about a 400cc-equivalent faired street bike as their first model.
The current announcement is a complete joke in every respect.
You can get better specs on AliExpress.
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Well that was a disappointment. Even Kawasaki can't make a proper basic electric motorcycle. Lots of flash...no dash... Unless an emotorcycle has a minimium of about 8Kw (continuous) it is a town scooter not a motorcycle. 100kph is a minimium.
I guess I will keep waiting for a useable commuter.
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Ok, having thought about it I think they've made one critical mistake and it's killed everything on the bike.
It's the battery, all of their design choices have been built around accommodating this thing, voltage, power, weight, charging, everything flows from that choice and it's a monumentally bad one. They sacrificed everything that would make it desirable for a swappable battery with no infrastructure to support it that's incompatible with the existing charging infrastructure.
I dunno how they managed to make it so expensive on top of that while also cheaping out on its equipment. It's gonna bomb and they'll use that as a justification not to make any more.
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I'm assuming their plan is to eventually start making electric scooters, basically identical to this bike component wise but in a different shape. To do so and actually have them sell they need to cut the price in half, using scooter components will help a little bit with that but unless this thing is just stupidly expensive due to a low production volume then it's not going to happen. That then brings the question of why did they bother with this thing at all instead of going straight to scooters? All I can think of is it's all for the attention, any publicity is good publicity and they can say they're the first of the big four Japanese manufacturers to have an electric motorcycle (I think Honda already has their scooter, at least in Japan).
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I'm assuming their plan is to eventually start making electric scooters, basically identical to this bike component wise but in a different shape. To do so and actually have them sell they need to cut the price in half, using scooter components will help a little bit with that but unless this thing is just stupidly expensive due to a low production volume then it's not going to happen. That then brings the question of why did they bother with this thing at all instead of going straight to scooters? All I can think of is it's all for the attention, any publicity is good publicity and they can say they're the first of the big four Japanese manufacturers to have an electric motorcycle (I think Honda already has their scooter, at least in Japan).
Do Kawasaki even have a scooter chassis in production, as do all of the other Japanese manufacturers? If they do, I can't recall it. They seem to have chosen the 400cc ICE models because the chassis was already available and could just dump an EV power train into the chassis. If they don't have a scooter chassis already available and in production, it wouldn't be nearly as cheap to design and manufacture one from scratch as using their existing motorcycle chassis. It would appear as if Kawasaki is just testing the consumer waters and perhaps is marketing this model in order to keep Japanese and EU regulators happy and off their backs for a few years. ???
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I'm assuming their plan is to eventually start making electric scooters, basically identical to this bike component wise but in a different shape. To do so and actually have them sell they need to cut the price in half, using scooter components will help a little bit with that but unless this thing is just stupidly expensive due to a low production volume then it's not going to happen. That then brings the question of why did they bother with this thing at all instead of going straight to scooters? All I can think of is it's all for the attention, any publicity is good publicity and they can say they're the first of the big four Japanese manufacturers to have an electric motorcycle (I think Honda already has their scooter, at least in Japan).
Yamaha also already has a couple of models, in Taiwan (I think it's essentially a rebadged Gogoro -- it uses the same batteries & swap system), 50cc-equivalent .
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I'm assuming their plan is to eventually start making electric scooters, basically identical to this bike component wise but in a different shape. To do so and actually have them sell they need to cut the price in half, using scooter components will help a little bit with that but unless this thing is just stupidly expensive due to a low production volume then it's not going to happen. That then brings the question of why did they bother with this thing at all instead of going straight to scooters? All I can think of is it's all for the attention, any publicity is good publicity and they can say they're the first of the big four Japanese manufacturers to have an electric motorcycle (I think Honda already has their scooter, at least in Japan).
Do Kawasaki even have a scooter chassis in production, as do all of the other Japanese manufacturers? If they do, I can't recall it. They seem to have chosen the 400cc ICE models because the chassis was already available and could just dump an EV power train into the chassis. If they don't have a scooter chassis already available and in production, it wouldn't be nearly as cheap to design and manufacture one from scratch as using their existing motorcycle chassis. It would appear as if Kawasaki is just testing the consumer waters and perhaps is marketing this model in order to keep Japanese and EU regulators happy and off their backs for a few years. ???
At least w.r.t. the EU, having a model on offer doesn't help them if it doesn't sell.
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What happens when there is something in the road, a box, a toy, a flower pot etc and it gets wedged between those two front tires just right, or binds one of them and causes it to lurch this or that way on you while doing highway speeds?
Or what happens when the road is shitty and has one of those 2 inch we are laying new pavement grooves that you have to somehow try to get over and the front wheels decide to start playing the dixie doodle on that ledge?
Why would I want to wear out 2 tires instead of just one, so I can, I guess turn better around tight corners when they come up in the less than 1 percent of my travel?? :shrug:
I wonder how a death wobble would manifest in this, and how it would squelch itself? Or maybe this makes the bike immune to that?
Aaron
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I think the thought process goes something like this.
Executive: Make electric motorbike
Engineer: Ok
Executive: We spent money on swappable battery research, use that
Engineer: This is ill advised
Executive: Don't care, use swappable battery, this is our corporate strategy now
Engineer: Ok, but I did warn you
[later]
Engineer: We made it, it's not very good
Executive: Great, ship it
Engineer: But ...
Executive: I have a golf date, no time for arguments, just ship it
[the future]
Executive: Why is this bike bombing, nobody wants electrics!
Engineer: We did our best
Executive: Of course we did, I guess we'll abandon electrics, there's no money in them
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I think the thought process goes something like this.
Executive: Make electric motorbike
Engineer: Ok
Executive: We spent money on swappable battery research, use that
Engineer: This is ill advised
Executive: Don't care, use swappable battery, this is our corporate strategy now
Engineer: Ok, but I did warn you
[later]
Engineer: We made it, it's not very good
Executive: Great, ship it
Engineer: But ...
Executive: I have a golf date, no time for arguments, just ship it
[the future]
Executive: Why is this bike bombing, nobody wants electrics!
Engineer: We did our best
Executive: Of course we did, I guess we'll abandon electrics, there's no money in them
That sounds about right to me, except that the engineers will be blamed for the product that doesn't sell. The executives that made the decision never take the blame and will find someone in the lower chain of command to pin the donkey's tail on.
When I worked in a local city's engineering department and received a stupid idea to implement, I would always keep a written record of the order, when it was made and who made it. Once the word got around that I document everything, I was never bothered with another dump idea again. They would then drop the bomb on some other unsuspecting staff member when looking for someone to blame for a decision that the city management made.
My favorite story was a request from a city councilman during the late 1970's who had just returned from Venice and wanted to replace the city's downtown street (which had about a 5% slope on the roadway) with a canal and have gondolas travel up and down it. We tried to explain that was impossible because the water would only flow downhill, there was no source of water around to keep the river filled and no way for the gondolas to get back up the "canal". We were told that since we were engineers, just make it work. Fortunately, before we could come up with an idea to make it work (like a lock system), the idea faded away.
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I worked in a power plant. Same story. Engineer makes STUPID AF idea, and YOU the technician have to magically make it work.
You ask the engineer, what were you expecting this (subsystem), that (part) to do specifically? Would get an arrogant shitty reply back. Ok no help there. Step two...
Id fix the system, redesign it, E mail the entire chain, with my planned fixes, detailing the questionable competence of the person who submitted the original idea, and saying, do you want this shit to work or are we going to throw MORE millions of dollars into the toilet on stupid designs that do not work like we did with idea A, B, C in the past? (They HATE when you point out past ignorance in e mails because they can't hide from it or deflect as easily then).
Id end the letter with a 'suggestion' next time you want to design something, why don't you actually talk to a Technician FIRST, you know, the person with over 3 decades of real life experience with this stuff, AND the sorry SOB who is going to be tasked with actually making your kludge actually WORK. This will save us countless hours of back and forth, saving the company money (a plus) AND save un necessary embarrassment when all this crap has to go public because a project is not online on a target date due to poor design, and you have to mooch more money to RE design it properly this time.
Two days later, Id be called into my managers office, he'd smile at me and say, "Aaron you know what time it is" here's your counselling sheet for hurting his feelings, sign it and get back to work. We'd both laugh, and I never would have to deal with dweebster ever again. word got out after a while, if you want to 'fix' something or change it, talk to the techs who work there first.
Id bend over backwards to help a new engineer do a project, because I know the crap they are under to 'demonstrate performance' to keep their job past the probationary period, besides, it's so much easier when you both are on the same page! But when they'd come in with the, I have a degree, you don't so your inputs are not needed attitude. Ok boy, time to lance that ego you got there.
E mail is ALWAYS your friend when dealing with management who are slimy / shady / or just dirty snakes. Make sure you always BCC a copy to your home e mail as well, in case the company's servers 'accidentally' corrupt e mail files, in case something ends up in a lawsuit or something. More than once e mails saved my job from scum bag cowards in management positions.
Aaron
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The progression of this discussion reminds me of this….
https://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg?si=Rw-B-vEXTTQOTVHM
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Oh so you visited our planning department!
Sadly that looks like a normal conversation with just about any / every Z you come across and have to explain something that does not involve an emoji somewhere.
Aaron
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Here is a detailed review from Europe of the Kawasaki e-1: https://thepack.news/the-pack-tested-the-kawasaki-z-e-1-electric-motorbike-in-brussels/