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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: DonTom on September 08, 2023, 03:58:26 AM
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Since I own both, I will try to compare them, but in most ways, they do not compare all that well but I will try here anyway.
We all here know the biggest differences, such as the CCS charging on the Experia, faster AC charging on the DSR/X and the chain drive on the Experia and the belt on the DSR/X so I won't cover the obvious differences, such as more power in the Experia. I am not the best to ask about that type of performance as I have not yet even selected the sport mode (or Canyon mode) in either bike. In fact, I am often in the eco mode. My entire trip of 205 miles (330 km) yesterday, even when on the freeway, was in eco mode. But I often use the standard / urban modes.
But some things I can compare. Mostly little things.
The Experia is full of little bugs. Untrue or very delayed messages on the screen and even an occasional fault error in reverse that kills the motor. Messages such as "you may now disconnect the charging cable" or "bike is off, turn on to continue" as I am going down the freeway. And the very common "FOB not in range" message.
I have not seen a single bug of any type with the Zero DSR/X. No issues at all of any type.
The price of each bike is closer than you may think. For an example, I added 3K$ of options to the DSR/X that came with the Experia LE. Save for the centerstand which I was able to buy for the DSR/X but I have been waiting for more than a year for the centerstand for the Experia.
DSR/X is quieter than the Experia. Chain noise on the Experia, especially when behind it (my riding buddies told me). The belt noise is not as bad on the Zero DSR/X but you can still hear it nice and clear.
Both bikes handle great, IMO. I cannot say one is better than the other. But again, since I am a rather slow rider, especially in curves, I am not the best to ask how they handle at higher speeds.
You do not want to try to use the cruise control at night on either bike. Switches are not lit up, as dark as can be, and right next to the kill switch on each bike.
The DSR/X has no Coast and Accel on the cruise control. The Experia does. But it is very simple and easy to set a new cruise speed on the DSR/X.
I find the menus easier to use on the DSR/X, but we still have to get used to it. Much of the menu is only available when the kill switch is activated (ie, motor off). And even reverse and slow forward parking modes require the kill switch to be on to select. Switch it back off (to motor on) to the get reverse and slow forward. Even the trip odometers require the bike's kill switch to view.
But the Experia reverse and slow forward are easier to use than on the DSR/X. Simply hold in the "run" button for a few seconds. Nothing to select on any menu.
We can see the trip odometer on the main screen on the Experia while riding, but not on the DSR/X.
A little more luggage capacity on the Experia. 22lbs weight limit on all the bags and travel trunk on either bike. But the Experia says the max speed with the bags and TT is 130 KM/80 MPH. The DSR/X is 120 km/ 75 mph.
My full-size XL helmet (I have an extra-large head for all my brains--or is it rocks? ;) )fits easily in either travel trunk.
But the DSR/X has a lot more space for things when the luggage is not being carried. As long as the extra charger or power tank is NOT installed in that space.
The DSR/X has two helmet locks under the seat. Seat has to be removed with the key to use them, takes ten seconds to remove & put back on, not a big deal. The Experia has no stock helmet locks. At least none that I yet discovered.
The Experia has a small section on each that can open for small items without opening the entire lid of any of its luggage. The DSR/X does not.
The Experia has more range than the Zero DSR/X charged to 110%. DSR/X is good for around 110 freeway miles when charged to a SOC of 110% . This can only be selected when starting a new charge. It will default back to 100% max charge. IOW, it will let us go past the normal useable capacity and a little into its max capacity. Should not be used too often. Figure one freeway mile per SOC%, which is handy. I do NOT keep the range left on the display. It is useless, IMO. I have the SOC % digital readout in the large numbers right above the battery bar which makes it easy to view. I am glad I don't need to have the lying "range left" on the display with the DSR/X. I do not like to look at such lies. Perhaps it could be useful if on level ground with no wind for a return trip, but too hilly and windy for useful info where I usually ride to. In reality, the DSR/X is just slightly better than 1 mile per soc, but in most cases can get that one mile per SOC%, MUCH more accurate than the stupid range guess-o-meter.
The Experia is good for around 150 average freeway miles. This is a realistic range to expect.
I like the watt hours per mile display on the DSR/X. That can tell you what speed to go for the best range. Very handy, IMO. The lower number means you're getting better range.
The Experia has a KWH per 100 miles on the next screen, hold "mode" one time to the right. Not the screen I normally use, but perhaps should.
Which bike do I like best? It's a tossup, I enjoy them both a lot.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I will add to this thread as I think about other things or discover new things.
The DSR/X has a hill hold that is handy at times, but only works in the run mode. If the sidestand is down, it disables the hill hold. It gives warnings on the screen when the hill hold is engaged or disengaged. It is easily engaged by putting a lot of pressure on either brake, the front or rear, when stopped. It disengages when you do just about anything, such as press in on either brake again or try to take off.
The Experia has no hill hold. But I have a bullet brake on the Experia that can be used as a hill hold. And that works as a parking brake as well. But you must remember to put in the front brake to disengage it.
On the DSR/X, I simply carry a little thingy to hold in the front brake in when I want to park it. I keep a small one in the charge door, along with a Chargepoint card. So both are unlocked and very easy to get to when needed. No need for a Bullet Brake on the Zero DSR/X as long as the front brake can be held in.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thanks for the comparison! When you say 'freeway' miles, what speeds are you going?
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Thanks for the comparison review. I was waiting for someone to compare the two. Since the Energica cases are just Givi Trekkers, any possibility of fitting them to the DSR/X? I loved the Trekkers when I had a Stelvio, the ability to flip open the “top” lid on the side cases was extremely convenient compared to traditional cases which require the whole clamshell to be opened up.
When reading individual reviews, I definitely get the impression the Experia is primarily an on-road tourer where as the DSR/X does have some light off-road capability. Is that accurate?
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Thanks for the comparison! When you say 'freeway' miles, what speeds are you going?
The normal speed of the USA freeway traffic in most cases, perhaps an average of just below 70 mph or 110 kph.
Of course, it is not possible to be all that accurate, but it is the range I expect when on the freeways.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Thanks for the comparison review. I was waiting for someone to compare the two. Since the Energica cases are just Givi Trekkers, any possibility of fitting them to the DSR/X? I loved the Trekkers when I had a Stelvio, the ability to flip open the “top” lid on the side cases was extremely convenient compared to traditional cases which require the whole clamshell to be opened up.
When reading individual reviews, I definitely get the impression the Experia is primarily an on-road tourer where as the DSR/X does have some light off-road capability. Is that accurate?
I would say the DSR/X is for the same type of use as the Stelvio. I traded in my 2016 Stelvio on the DSR/X. I didn't really want to, but 11 motorcycles are about all I have room for with my EV cars in the garages as well.
IOW, not really for off road, but fine for most unpaved roads.
Yeah, the Experia is more like the Zero SR, more for the pavement.
Lately, I find myself riding the DSR/X the most. Main reason is new J1772 charge stations are getting a lot more common and a lot more reliable than CCS.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Thanks for the comparison! When you say 'freeway' miles, what speeds are you going?
The normal speed of the USA freeway traffic in most cases, perhaps an average of just below 70 mph or 110 kph.
First time I've ever heard that from an American. Usually they tell me that absolutely everyone does at least 10 over the limit and that's why electric and small bikes aren't suitable, you need something that will comfortably sit at at least 90 just to be safe.
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First time I've ever heard that from an American. Usually they tell me that absolutely everyone does at least 10 over the limit and that's why electric and small bikes aren't suitable, you need something that will comfortably sit at at least 90 just to be safe.
Many do go more than 10 MPH over the speed limit. Especially motorcycles. But I normally stay around the speed limits if not below when there is no traffic behind me.
Another minor difference is in the stock windshields. The Experia has very little adjustment range. To adjust pull out on it, can easily be done while riding, but do not expect to notice any difference in that two or so inches of its full adjustment. The DSR/X has a lot more range of adjustment, but that is not saying much. But at least there is a noticeable difference. The knobs on the Zero DSR/X to adjust the windshield I find a little more difficult to do while riding, but it can still be done. But I would not try to adjust it in heavy traffic.
-Don- (now charging up for free here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/15562))
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Don I like your comparison of the two bikes and I would think you may be the only person that owns both.
I have had my DSR/X for two months and have already put 3,500 miles on it. This is my first electric motorcycle and I am really enjoying it. After 55 years of riding a lot of miles all over the world I have retired to shorter more relaxed day rides.
I have not had any issues with the bike so far. I think I have discovered all the features of the bike and the phone app. I like how you can customize the dash to show the information that is important to you as a rider. I have the four customizable dashboard set to show battery % because it is easier to see than the small green battery at the bottom, range guess o meter, range left, and ambient temperature. I have determined the ambient temperature is about 5 degrees higher than actual.
I have used the app to design a couple of custom ride modes. This is a work in progress. I have created one that I am fine tuning to my liking. I to as you have been riding primarily in ECO mode. So I start from those settings. I increased the max speed to 85 mph, gave it a little more power and torque, and reduced the regenerative braking to zero so it would coast. Didn’t like that so I am working my way back up 10% at a time to find the sweet spot for me.
As far as range goes I am not seeing the same range as you but as we all know a lot of things can affect that. Since I got the bike the temperature has been between 95 and 102 degrees . The terrain here is mostly flat with a few small rolling hills so not much regen is happening . I have been seeing about 120 miles of range riding country back roads, and about 100 miles or one mile per % at a constant 55 mph. On the interstate at a constant 70 mph I am getting about 85 miles of range. This is all starting at a 100% charge. I have changed it to 110% a couple of times when making a longer trip but most days I don’t do that.
I don’t have any side cases but do have a Shad top box. It’s a little larger than the one Zero sells and it holds everything I need. I did install a small Givi wind deflector to the top lip of the stock windshield and like it. I will be adding the rapid charger as soon as it gets to my dealer.
Bottom line I really like the bike.
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Don I like your comparison of the two bikes and I would think you may be the only person that owns both.
I have had my DSR/X for two months and have already put 3,500 miles on it. This is my first electric motorcycle and I am really enjoying it. After 55 years of riding a lot of miles all over the world I have retired to shorter more relaxed day rides.
I have not had any issues with the bike so far. I think I have discovered all the features of the bike and the phone app. I like how you can customize the dash to show the information that is important to you as a rider. I have the four customizable dashboard set to show battery % because it is easier to see than the small green battery at the bottom, range guess o meter, range left, and ambient temperature. I have determined the ambient temperature is about 5 degrees higher than actual.
I have used the app to design a couple of custom ride modes. This is a work in progress. I have created one that I am fine tuning to my liking. I to as you have been riding primarily in ECO mode. So I start from those settings. I increased the max speed to 85 mph, gave it a little more power and torque, and reduced the regenerative braking to zero so it would coast. Didn’t like that so I am working my way back up 10% at a time to find the sweet spot for me.
As far as range goes I am not seeing the same range as you but as we all know a lot of things can affect that. Since I got the bike the temperature has been between 95 and 102 degrees . The terrain here is mostly flat with a few small rolling hills so not much regen is happening . I have been seeing about 120 miles of range riding country back roads, and about 100 miles or one mile per % at a constant 55 mph. On the interstate at a constant 70 mph I am getting about 85 miles of range. This is all starting at a 100% charge. I have changed it to 110% a couple of times when making a longer trip but most days I don’t do that.
I don’t have any side cases but do have a Shad top box. It’s a little larger than the one Zero sells and it holds everything I need. I did install a small Givi wind deflector to the top lip of the stock windshield and like it. I will be adding the rapid charger as soon as it gets to my dealer.
Bottom line I really like the bike.
Same here, I find my DSR/x addicting to ride. I have been riding it every day lately, ignoring my ten other bikes. But I will get on the Experia soon and start riding it when I get back to Reno.
On my DSR/X display, I have the SOC% right above the battery indicator for the same reasons as you. A lot easier to see. On top of that, I have the ambient temperature. To the upper right of the screen, I have the battery temperature. Below that, I have the WH/MI. I find the range meter totally useless, and I do not want to even look at it. The Wh/Mi gives important information on your range as you're riding. IOW, a reading of "80" will give double the range of a "160" reading in real time. That in itself explains how useless the range guessometer is. "Range" cannot do anything in real time and often gives opposite info on a return trip. If you go downhill for many miles and it shows you have 50 miles left, do you think you can go uphill for 50 miles to get back home? Not a chance. While SOC % isn't perfect for a return trip either, it will be a lot closer than the range estimate.
Yeah, there is no way to get an accurate range, but one mile per SOC has been my average with a lot of freeways driving, but not all of it. And even on the freeways there can be various speeds. Especially when I need to slow down for all the road construction that has been going on around here.
IIRC, The Expira's top speed in ECO is 60 MPH (~100 kpm) which makes it useless on the freeway. Same with my SS9. OTOH, the DSR/X does 70.0 MPH (113 kmh) in ECO (will show as 73 MPH on the display) and that works for me. And instant cruise control at 70 MPH. Just go WOT at almost any time on the CA freeways that have a 65 MPH speed limit. Cops normally won't bust people for 5 MPH over the posted speed limit. So IMO, ECO mode is more useful on the DSR/x.
I have not set any custom speeds yet on either bike. But I have on my 2017 Zero DS and SR, so someday when I am bored, I will check into setting custom modes. I am normally in ECO or Standard (Urban on the Experia) modes and that works well enough for me. I am not all that picky. But it is more important to switch modes on the Energicas when getting on the freeways. 60 MPH max can even be dangerous at times. To need to release the throttle to change modes when a car is tailgating. I once forgot to switch modes before getting on the freeway and exactly that happened to me one time.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Today, I took a 300-mile ride on my Energica Experia. I first went to Lake Lahontan, NV and from there to Bridgeport, CA to have my favorite Baja Fish Tacos at the Burger Barn (https://www.yelp.com/biz/the-burger-barn-bridgeport).
While having my late lunch, I charged up here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/191333). Battery was warm (in the yellow at the start of the charge), and only charged at around 15 to 16 KW on my Experia.
I was thinking if I had the Zero DSR/X there, with the extra charger, I could charge it at 13.2 KW at a couple of different places for free that are just a couple of blocks away. So then no big difference in charging speed between the Experia and the DSR/X.
Not a big deal, but it cost me more than five bucks for the CCS charge. I would not notice the difference if I was charging at 13.2KW which can be done on the 80-amp AC charge station here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/546564), a block away from where I was using the CCS. And free to use.
The bike prices do compare. Add the extra AC charger to the Zero DSR/X for 3K$ & several hundred more to install at the dealer, add the bags and travel trunk, you now added around 7K$ to the price of the DSR/X to match the charging and bags of the Experia. But AC charging is MUCH more reliable than CCS and there are more of them. So that is also something to consider.
Now here is a small thing, that is also usually NBD, but I like better on the DSR/X. On the DSR/X, the Eco mode is very useful, and is good for 75 mph on the freeway and even has reasonable acceleration. I have done entire trips in the eco mode on the DSR/X.
I would never do that on the Experia.
The Experica in the Eco mode is dangerous to use, IMO. It will only go 53 MPH max (as shown on my GPS) , very weak acceleration. Get on the freeway with it (say you forget to select a better mode) and then to select a faster mode, you have to figure out the menu, release the throttle to get it to change. This can be very dangerous when a car is already on your tail.
I realize this is usually NBD, but I find the menus easier to use on the DSR/X than the Experia. And I find the menus on my SS9 to be easier to use than the Experia as well.
And the DSR/X has no bugs. The Experia has several. Mostly the false or very delayed messages on the screen.
I assume the Experia is much faster than the Zero DSR/X in the sport mode. I still have not had either of the bikes in the sport mode and I am not going to try to compare that. I assume either would be scary fast, at least to me.
The very short range of the widescreen on the Experia is so small, you will notice no difference at all when all the way up or all the way down. No need to waste your time to adjust it. There is some noticeable difference with the DSR/X windscreen. Still not a big difference, but probably don't want much more than that on an electric bike to reduce the range when fully up anyway.
I still enjoy both bikes a lot, but I think I am finding more things I like better with the DSR/X. But the extra range of the Experia is a biggie.
I have decided to not buy the extra DSR/X charger, as I like the extra room for storage on the bike and I am at countless charge stations that cannot even do the full 6.6 KW as it is. But Bridgeport should be good for a lot more than the 13.2 KW AC charge.
So still, I would make the decision between the two bikes based on charging and range.
The Experia has better range for sure, and that is also something to consider. The Experia is good for at least fifty more miles than the DSR/X even when charged up to 110%.
I used that 2nd screen today on the Experia. All the info is way too small. Difficult to read at a fast glance, but very good info is there if you can read it before you crash into something.
The info. on the screen of the DSR/X is much larger and easier to read, but there is not nearly as much info. Not even the trip odometers (two of them) can be shown on the screen of the DSR/X, but is on the main Experia screen.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Really interesting comparisons... very lucky to have someone daft enough to own both to listen to on the subject :D
One or the other of these is likely to be my next bike.
I do wonder why Zero aren't filling out their battery pack with another two modules to give it the range it needs to compete with the Experia. Stuck out the side a bit like a boxer twin. It would even fill out that strangely slim middle of the DSRX and give it a bit more of that presence that the GS Adv has.
Cas :)
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Thanks, Don. I always appreciate your writeups on our bikes.
FYI, you can put the trip odo in one of the display quadrants- it's a bit further down in the menu.
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Thanks, Don. I always appreciate your writeups on our bikes.
FYI, you can put the trip odo in one of the display quadrants- it's a bit further down in the menu.
OIC, thanks, I just now did such in place of the ambient temp after seeing your message. I figure battery temp is all I really need to know. I wish the DSR/X had more room on the screen for a couple of more items on the main display.
I was hoping it could display the trip odometer just above the odometer in about the same size. It's not something I normally look at during a trip, but after to see how far the ride was. Yesterday's ride on my Experia was exactly 296.0 miles by the trip odometer.
What I have displayed now on the DSR/X:
upper left=trip oddometer upper right=Batt temperature.
bottom left= SOC% bottom right=instant WH per mile
I am glad I do not have to look at range left on the display. On the Experia, it's on every screen and no way to get rid of it.
But I like the way the range is shown on my Chevy Bolt. It shows max range, expected average range and minimum range all at the same time. They need to improve that on all motorcycles that show "range left" even on the ICE bikes.
While Tesla only shows one range, I think it is mostly based on SOC than the current driving conditions. It's within reason.
The problem with motorcycle range left is that on all bikes I have seen, it is based on the last few miles ridden, which is stupid, IMAO. If you used close to 50% you may not have enough juice to get home without a recharge if you were riding in the direction of the wind at first--or mostly downhill or whatever.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don
Another great update and review of the bikes.
You are correct about selecting the range and changing that works for each of us. I really wanted the Experia but ended up buying the DSR/X because there are no DC chargers where I ride most of the time and even with the longer range of the Experia it was not enough for me to get home or to one of the very few DC chargers in my state. There is ac level 2 charging where I ride and the slow ac charging of the Experia made it clear for me I needed the DSR/X. I hope Zero ships my rapid charger soon. Some of my riding is from 80 to 100 miles between charging locations. This leaves me waiting two hours for a recharge and cutting that time is important to me.
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Unfortunately your concerns are very valid Oilcan. I really wish they'd put a 6k charger (ie double up the one they got !!) on their bikes. Im pretty sure the room is up in there for them to do so. It's NOT so much for the people who are charging at home, they got all night, the 3k is fine but for those such as yourself, who have to put 100 miles or 64 miles in my case onto the bike and may only have a few hours to do it in, and not have the luxury of 'all afternoon' or the entire work day to leave the bike charging.
Even places that do have charging stations at work, if you leave your car there all day, you ARE going to eventually be pissing off the other people who want to charge, but can't, because you are there, and they know this and many start charging you hourly fees as well. This kind of negates the bennies of an E bike.
Pretty much every 240 volt circuit is typically breakered at 30 amps, it's NO big deal really. Asking for 6k charging capability so we can get the people in and out, is not a huge ask, but would be huge for the positive impact it could have on e charging overall.
Just my opinion on it.
Aaron
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Another thing here is there are 80 amp level 2 charging options where I charge so with the rapid charger a can charge at the full 12.6 kw. As well as 48 amp charging options at 11 kw. If Energica did have a 6 kw ac onboard charger that would make it acceptable.
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Really interesting comparisons... very lucky to have someone daft enough to own both to listen to on the subject :D
One or the other of these is likely to be my next bike.
I do wonder why Zero aren't filling out their battery pack with another two modules to give it the range it needs to compete with the Experia. Stuck out the side a bit like a boxer twin. It would even fill out that strangely slim middle of the DSRX and give it a bit more of that presence that the GS Adv has.
Cas :)
You can match the range of the Experia range with the DSR/X. But that will require the top-heavy power tank and then you cannot have the charge tank. But one thing is very nice about the DSR/X, many options. Pay for what you want the most.
IMO, range will be less and less important as more charge stations pop up. So I would go for the extra 6.6 KW charging before I would go with the extra range. But you do have that choice with the Zero DSR/X.
I find the 6.6 kW charging to be enough for me, the way I ride. I like electrics mainly for my solo rides where I can take many breaks. Many short charging stops, the only long one will be for a lunch break or something like that.
I always bring a laptop computer with me, and I usually get online from the charge stops. I would rather be doing that under a shady tree in the mountains than here at home!
But the nice thing about the Experia, on one full charge it can usually go with a group of ICE bikes without needing to recharge during the trip. But the same can be said for the DSR/X if one chooses the power tank option.
But I find for my solo rides and for many of my trips, I just like to have that extra storage space. So I decided against both, the power as well as the charge tank and to keep my DSR/X just as it is right now.
Many others will decide differently, of course. Most of it is based on riding locations.
For those who do not know, the DSR/X has a lot of storage space as a plain bike, when neither the power or charge tank is added. One of the side panels can be removed and things that you may need but not often can go there. It requires to unscrew a couple of screws. And the main tank area has even more space, and quite a bit of it, where the screwdriver for the side panel is kept, which comes with the bike. I keep my tire repair stuff in the side panel--all of it except for the battery so it can be easily kept charged. I keep the tire pump battery and a lot of other stuff in the locked tank area that is easier to get into. Just use the key.
The Experia also has some space in the "tank" area, but it is mostly filled up with the stock battery, leaving little room left for other things. To get to that space, the bike must be on and press the left bottom rear button for a few seconds. This is also the back out of the menu button when pressed but not held in.
But add the charge tank or power tank to the DSR/X and there goes all of that extra space the DSR/X. But it is nice to have all these options.
So with options it is important to know the AC charge speed OR (not and) range of the DSR/X can come very close to matching the Experia on its range or CCS charge speed. But only a few AC charge stations can handle the 13.2 KW, where the CCS on the Experia will always do just a little faster charging. I have seen it charge as high as 24 KW, but below 20 is more common, depending mostly on battery temperature. And drops down from there as the battery gets more charged and warmer.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Speaking of charge stations, I heard a report on KCBS yesterday that California says that it has completed the installation of 10K charging stations ahead of its goal. The report said that they were typically installed in "under-served" communities and at locations subject to air pollution. The report didn't say, but I assume they are all L2 outlets.
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Speaking of charge stations, I heard a report on KCBS yesterday that California says that it has completed the installation of 10K charging stations ahead of its goal. The report said that they were typically installed in "under-served" communities and at locations subject to air pollution. The report didn't say, but I assume they are all L2 outlets.
Yep, in CA places such as Georgetown (https://www.plugshare.com/location/346912), North San Juan (https://www.plugshare.com/location/482582), and even Bridgeport (https://www.plugshare.com/location/423893) had no Level Two charge stations until this year.
And I am seeing the opposite happening with L3 DC chargers. They break and nobody repairs them. It was better three years ago than today. Three years ago, I could take my SS9- past places such as Hawthorne, (https://www.plugshare.com/location/144823) NV or Incline Village (https://www.plugshare.com/location/86014), NV and other places where the only CCS has been broken for more than a year.
This is something to consider between the two bikes. However, when Tesla superchargers all become compatible with CCS that can be a major game changer to most areas. Places such as Susanville, CA only have Tesla fast charging and no other fast charging.. Same with several other places. And I have yet to see even one that did not work.
At incline village, the only CCS (which does not work) is a few feet from the ten Telsa Superchargers (https://www.plugshare.com/location/209418)that always work. However, Tesla has only been putting the Magic Dock in places NOT at all needed so far. Perhaps to be extra careful, so there is working CCS nearby if the Tesla Supercharger does NOT work for any non-Teslas.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Another thing here is there are 80 amp level 2 charging options where I charge so with the rapid charger a can charge at the full 12.6 kw. As well as 48 amp charging options at 11 kw. If Energica did have a 6 kw ac onboard charger that would make it acceptable.
The DSR/X charger is 6.6KW. So with two, you're at 13.2 KW which is getting close to the CCS charge times as it is also often in the teens on the Experia.
Yeah, the Experia would be the perfect bike if they could also squeeze a 6.6 KW charger in there. But with all that battery in it, it is probably not yet quite possible to have the room for both. But we know changes are coming.
But with Tesla Superchargers opening up to non-Telsas, it will greatly reduce the need for any AC charging while on the road with the Energicas. The AC charging will normally only then be used at home. Also, it will make the range less important.
The real problem is the best time to buy an electric motorcycle will be after we're all dead! So how long do we wait?
-Don- Reno, NV
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L2 chargers are cheap, they can be had for a few hundred dollars.
L3 chargers now, the modules are generally 10 KW and up each. When one goes bad, its a good grand to 1500 or more dollars to swap it out I am seeing. This is probably why you are not seeing many of them being repaired. The OP is seeing that electric vehicle charging is not the gold mine / cash cow they promised them when they sold them the charger and they are not going to throw more good money after bad money and fix the thing.
Im afraid that besides tesla and a few huge corps that have the money to lay out, and know how to play the game to get the government grants which are set up so that only a very select few people actually qualify for them, (which is total fucking bullshit) you are not going to see a hell of a lot of them yet. Seriously, all things considered, there's just no money in them yet.
The best we can hope for is that the tesla thing opens up here for everyone very soon and all these super chargers, we can buy our magic wands and ccs -> tesla tap and use them. Otherwise the price to charge is going to be quite high if you are not doing it at home.
Aaron
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Today, I thought about which of the two bikes I would buy between the DSR/X and the Experia if I could only buy one or the other.
After today's ride, my mine is made up.
I would choose the Zero DSR/X (sorry, Demoni, if you're reading this.)!
Especially after what happened to me here today. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/284768) The Experia has too many bugs and it's now to the point I do not trust the bike.
Today, when at South Lake Tahoe, I decided to have lunch. There are Changepoints right there, but I was already quite charged up near 80% SOC from my last chargestop here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/305386). So I decided to use the J-plug so I would have time for lunch. Well, I ended up having the time for three or more lunches.
When I got back to the bike, the charge was only in the high 80's SOC, so I decided to stop the charge and ride on, but the bike would NOT let me turn it on to release the charge cable! When I pressed the "mode" button, it said bike must be on to continue, which is normal. I try to turn on the bike (it's keyless, but I don't think that has anything to do with this issue). I hear a click coming down the bike somewhere, but the bike would NOT turn on. So here I am stuck with a bike charging. The bike would not ask for a pin number, would not turn on using the FOB as passive nor with the fob out of range. Locked on the same screen. The screen itself did NOT look normal. The green line across the screen is from the NEXT page of the menu showing on the main page where it should not. It's the graph for KWHs used per 100 miles, showing on the main screen instead of the 2nd screen which I cannot even get to with the bike off. Here is what the screen looked like then (see attached):
So then I am wondering what will happen when the bike stops charging at 100% SOC. I was thinking that if I still have this problem after the charge stops, I cannot even call a tow truck because the charge cable will not release from the bike. I will have to break something first to get the bike free. So I am not sure what will happen.
I wait a long time, about an hour and I am at 99% SOC. 30 minutes later, the bike is still at 99% SOC and still charging at 1.1 KW and balancing the cells and is taking forever. Almost like I am stuck at 99% SOC, but I know a big slow down up there is normal, but this is longer than I expected.
There is no way that I know of to stop the charging at the Chargepoint J-AC charge station. And I am not sure if that would release the cable from the bike or not even if I could. So I just wait and wait and do a lot of walking around and such.
Finally, the bike gets to 100% SOC and the charging shuts off. Then all is normal; I can turn the bike on. So far, so good.
So I ride back home to Reno.
I am on a lonely road by Washoe Lake, so I select the cruise control. "Undefined fault" and the motor dies. I had to come to a stop and shut off the bike to get it to run again.
Some think it's because of the kill switch being touched.
But . . .
I did a little experiment on the same road. I rode at the same speed and deliberately hit the kill switch. Motor dies. No errors of any type and I can restart the bike without turning it off, still riding, by just a little pressure on the front brake level and the start button (opposite side of kill switch) Completely different symptoms, proving this fault has nothing to do with hitting the kill switch (besides the fact I am sure that I didn't). I have also had this "undefined fault" when in reverse a few times.
I have found no bugs at all on the Zero DSR/X. Has any of the DSR/X owners here found any bugs?
I will ask the opposite for the Experia owners. Have any here NOT had any bugs?
I ask that way because I won't get endless replies!
And the fact that AC charging is getting more common, and MUCH more reliable than CCS, as more CCS chargers break and are never repaired, I see even more reasons to choose the DSR/X over the Experia.
IMO, the DSR/X has more than enough range as is, and reasonable charge times, and either can be made even better, just not both.
I am finding it is easier these days to plan a route with AC charge stations than with CCS. CCS was better three years ago when more of them worked.
I cannot choose for others, but I would certainly take the DSR/X over the Experia now that I have a lot more miles on each.
But I assume these bugs can be worked out by Energica. But will that just mean different bugs next time? Seems to me that Zero did their FW right, as I have not yet seen any bugs with my DSR/X.
And I wonder what my next Experia bug will be.
-Don- Reno, NV
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WOW sorry to hear this. I have put 4500 miles on my DSR/X since mid July and the software has been solid without any failures. I did see a warning pop up the other day when I turned on the key and put up the side stand and turned on the kill switch before the screen had booted up. It said something about throttle position. I turned the key off and back on and gave it time to boot up and the warning was gone. There are no faults logged in the system.
The bike is great for me and I absolutely love riding it. It looks like I made the right choice. By the way I placed an order for the Experia just after the order board opened but canceled it in late February due to production delays. Still waiting an electric motorcycle I decided to give the Zero a try. So far so good.
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To be fair the Zero firmware has been riddled with bugs for the last 2 years and it only seems to be working ok finally now. Mostly. I have had the situation quite recently on my SR/F at home where it wouldn't release the charging cable when I turned the bike on. I turned it on and off a few times and eventually sorted itself out but it was still a bit of a brow-furrowing moment trying to just on the thing to go to work.
Cas :)
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Don,
Thanks for your great writeup on both models.
Very disconcerting about the bugs, especially the latest one!
I now have about 1100 miles on my Experia, and the only "bugs" have been at times needing to press the start button twice to initialize (and this only happens infrequently), and once on my first ride home, holding the "back" button in the two seconds and having the storage compartment pop open. (It now no longer does that, not until I am stopped with the kickstand down, when I then gain access to my garage door opener.) I only infrequently get the "key out of range" message while riding.
I chose the Experia because of the range, having been in the not-too-distant past a three-tank-a-day rider. That, and the bags, and the near-equivalent price to a g/s Adventure with bags. What I was wiling to accept was that I was getting a hand-made and IMHO very good looking machine, that was in its first year of production - "bleeding edge" if you will. The Zero did not meet my requirements, although I have enjoyed riding a friend of mine's.
I recently went on a ride that took me 180 miles from home, and I arrived with 25 miles range left. 120v charge at my destination, and 240v charge when I got back home. No need to charge mid-trip, although I have used both CCS and AC charging (Chargepoint) without a problem so far. Being an electrical imbecile, I was not happy to read on the forum that the range figure is nearly uselses - but I am learning quickly so I don't strand myself.
The final reason I chose the Experia is that I wanted to ride and not maintain, having restored and customized a number of motorcycles. I hope that does not change!
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To be fair the Zero firmware has been riddled with bugs for the last 2 years and it only seems to be working ok finally now. Mostly. I have had the situation quite recently on my SR/F at home where it wouldn't release the charging cable when I turned the bike on. I turned it on and off a few times and eventually sorted itself out but it was still a bit of a brow-furrowing moment trying to just on the thing to go to work.
Cas :)
Yes, I am aware of the bugs on Zero's other slightly older models, Magic Charging and a few other things. But so far, the DSR/X has been bug free and a fun bike to ride.
I also realize that first year model bikes usually have many issues. So I assume Energica will fix these bugs over the years, but I am comparing the two models as they are today.
IIRC, with the DSR/x, the charge cable can be released at any time. Just press the release button on the charge plug and charging stops. Since there is no super high current, high voltage DC charging, they do not have to make so sure the cable is locked in.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Being an electrical imbecile, I was not happy to read on the forum that the range figure is nearly uselses - but I am learning quickly so I don't strand myself.
Yeah, notice how my Experia says it has 253 miles left. 30 minutes later, when I was going down Hwy 50 to Carson City, it said I had 330 miles range left. A few minutes and miles later (less than ten miles later) on I-580 towards Reno it said less than 100 miles left. Totally useless. But this, AFAIK, is the same on all motorcycles that show range left. Even the ICE bikes. For some reason they base these estimates on the current conditions over a few miles. This is an especially stupid way to do it for this area of high winds and endless hills. IMO, an average based on SOC would be much better and be a lot closer to being accurate.
Or the way my Chevy Bolt does it, have three ranges shown for expected average, min and max range. I am not sure how Tesla does it, but my range is normally 3 times my SOC%, but not always. But somehow it is close to acceptable, unlike any motorcycles I have seen as they are all totally useless range estimates. Expect anything except for what it shows.
However, I assume they would be accurate on a perfectly level road with no wind. How often is that? Around here, never.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have found that my DSR/X is getting approximately the range Zero is advertising on the website. I have not really paid a lot of attention to the charging speed because most times I just plug it in when I get home and walk away. Today after a ride I thought I would check the charging speed against the advertised speed on the website. It says it should change from 0% to 95% in 2.0 hours with the standard 6.6 kw charger. I didn’t run it down to 0% but after my 106 mile ride I was down to 9%.
It was about 90 degrees when I started the charging and it was charging at 6.3 kw. My voltage here is about 230 and is probably why it wasn’t at the advertised 6.6 kw.
At the one hour mark the bike was at 55% and the charging rate was down to 4.9 kw.
At the one and a half hour mark the bike was at 73% and holding steady at the 4.9 kw rate.
At an hour and fifty five minutes it was at 90% and charging at 4.8 kw.
At the two hour mark it was at 92% and still charging at 4.8 kw.
It reached the 95% mark in two hours and six minutes. But it continued to change another five minutes as the cells balanced and the charging was tapering down until it shutdown at rate of 1.5 kw.
So all in 9% to 95 % in two hours and eleven minutes on a 90 degree day. I expect the quoted time on the website is at a cooler temperature. I think the advertised specs are pretty close to real world.
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I have found that my DSR/X is getting approximately the range Zero is advertising on the website.
My only complaint with the Zero DSR/x is the lousy instructions for the centerstand installation and them not telling me the locks and reflectors would be shipped separately from the bags and trunk.
But I would really have to nitpick to find a problem with the DSR/x itself.
I just wish I could say the same for my Experia. I still think the Experia could be a great bike--after they fix the bugs in their firmware. And all of these bugs are intermittent, they only happen once in a while. That could make it more difficult to resolve. I hope Experia has an FW update in the works. It certainly needs it.
BTW, if I were Energica I would deal with the fob out of range message by having no message possible after the bike is first started. Just use the pin, if somehow fob is lost in route (very unlikely, IMO) but perhaps not brick the bike until entered six times incorrectly, instead of the current three times. I have used the pin often and it always worked for me on the very first try.
That's better than having a message we all know to ignore.
-Don- Reno, NV
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A newbie here!…..thanks for the awesome posts! Very helpful….
To bring the comparison in another area, one of the reasons for me being interested in moving to an electric bike (after a long wait to get them matured) is the sound (not a fan of loud noise, give me the music instead).
In a recent motorcycle magazine article (MOTOPLUS) there was a comparison test between these two bikes. One of the many things compared was the noise. It was said that the DSR/X was very quiet (not much motor noise) and the Experia was a screamer (when e.g. accelerating hard).
Not talking about belt/chain difference now. The testers said that the Experia was similar to the sound of the Ducati Streetfighter V4 S (ICE) when opening the throttle hard.
This really surprised me…is this really true?
FYI: see attached a dB(A)-test of 8 motorbikes (including these 2 electrics). Font is a bit weird as pic was taken using Google Translate, translating Dutch text to English.
Hayo
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A newbie here!…..thanks for the awesome posts! Very helpful….
To bring the comparison in another area, one of the reasons for me being interested in moving to an electric bike (after a long wait to get them matured) is the sound (not a fan of loud noise, give me the music instead).
In a recent motorcycle magazine article (MOTOPLUS) there was a comparison test between these two bikes. One of the many things compared was the noise. It was said that the DSR/X was very quiet (not much motor noise) and the Experia was a screamer (when e.g. accelerating hard).
Not talking about belt/chain difference now. The testers said that the Experia was similar to the sound of the Ducati Streetfighter V4 S (ICE) when opening the throttle hard.
This really surprised me…is this really true?
FYI: see attached a dB(A)-test of 8 motorbikes (including these 2 electrics). Font is a bit weird as pic was taken using Google Translate, translating Dutch text to English.
Hayo
I do NOT find the noise to be objectionable on the Experia. Not a big issue to me. But riders behind me say it is quite loud. IAC, I would rate it as being true, but not a big deal. Zero has no gearbox as well as no chain, unlike the Experia which has both. Experia has more power and torque, and more power and torque usually means a bit more noise. However, the Zero DSR/x has more than enough power, IMO.
If the noise makes a big difference to you, you will want the DSR/x more than the Experia. But the noise on the Experia to the rider is not bad. It is worse behind it, from what others have told me, who were riding behind me.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ok, that's interesting. Noise for others or self...something to think about, who wins? :o
The other thing I noticed in the summary report of the comparison (I have attached the rating for each compared item) is that the bikes apparently differ quite a bit in a few points. If you can give your view, that would be great....you're such a help with having both bikes. I have the q's below highlighted in the pic.
1. the cornering stability. Any truth in the test difference?
2: breaking downhill. It appears that the rider loses confidence after a number of strong breaks due to less effective breaking (the need for a squeeze): DSR/X
3. Ground clearance. Just wonder if you ever noticed that.
4. Wind and weather protection. Which would have the capability of less turbulence (head protected, not clean wind). Say for a 6.1 rider? I am using a barn-door on the GS now but that won't be available for these bikes I think?
It worth to mention that this test was done in the Alps and testing the bikes on their specific capability to do the heavy twisties up and down the mountain passes. I guess an exceptional burden on the bikes, not something on the menu of a day-today rider :)....for example, they said the DSR/X got eventually an overheated motor and forced the rider to slow down by making less power available to rider.
thanks for any input!
Hayo
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The review Don is doing on this thread is great real world information. I can only address one of your questions about the DSR/X and that is wind protection and head buffeting. Zero does offer the barn door option windshield but I don’t have it. I am a 5’7” rider and the stock windshield does a good job with smooth air flow, however I was getting just a little too much wind noise and noticed I could lower my head just a little and it would reduce the wind noise. I purchased a small 7” Givi wind deflector that attaches to the top of the windshield and it did the trick. Very smooth airflow and I love it. The upper body wind protection is very good. You do get more wind on your lower legs than you do on a GS. I have only ridden it in a light shower for a few miles and it seems about average protection.
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A newbie here!…..thanks for the awesome posts! Very helpful….
To bring the comparison in another area, one of the reasons for me being interested in moving to an electric bike (after a long wait to get them matured) is the sound (not a fan of loud noise, give me the music instead).
In a recent motorcycle magazine article (MOTOPLUS) there was a comparison test between these two bikes. One of the many things compared was the noise. It was said that the DSR/X was very quiet (not much motor noise) and the Experia was a screamer (when e.g. accelerating hard).
Not talking about belt/chain difference now. The testers said that the Experia was similar to the sound of the Ducati Streetfighter V4 S (ICE) when opening the throttle hard.
This really surprised me…is this really true?
FYI: see attached a dB(A)-test of 8 motorbikes (including these 2 electrics). Font is a bit weird as pic was taken using Google Translate, translating Dutch text to English.
Hayo
The sound on my 2020 Experia SS9 13.4 seemed nowhere near as loud as my previous 2011 Ducati Multistrada 1200, which I would in turn expect to be quieter than a Streetfighter of any engine configuration. I only rode an Experia briefly, but it didn’t strike me as any louder than my SS9. The sound is noticeable, but not at all like even the quietest ICE bikes, especially at slower in-town speeds where Energicas are very quiet. When I was considering trading my Zero SR for an Energica, I worried about the sound since I also don’t like to make a lot of noise and draw attention, but it was never an issue for me and I doubt it would be for you either.
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It worth to mention that this test was done in the Alps and testing the bikes on their specific capability to do the heavy twisties up and down the mountain passes. I guess an exceptional burden on the bikes, not something on the menu of a day-today rider :) ....for example, they said the DSR/X got eventually an overheated motor and forced the rider to slow down by making less power available to rider.
thanks for any input!
Hayo
The main one I disagree with is the wind protection. I felt it was better on the DSR/x. I was blown around a lot the other day when I was in Carson City, NV on my Experia. But I really cannot ride both bikes at the same time to do a fair comparison. And as I mentioned before the Experia only has around 1.5" (38mm) of windshield adjustment. The Zero DSR/x has around 3.5" (89mm) of adjustment, more than double that of the Experia. Perhaps the DSR/x gets a little more wind to resist than the Experia and perhaps that makes a difference. BTW, I am also 6'1". I find either bike comfy enough for between charge stops. I probably have not yet had the DSR/x in as much wind as I had the other day. But I can say I was NOT impressed by the way the Experia handles in the wind. It's nothing like riding my Triumph Trophy SE (ICE bike) , which I find to have the very best wind protection of all of my 11 bikes. I often don't realize how windy it is until I stop when riding the TTSE. Surprisingly, I do not find the wind protection to be all that great on my 1,000 lbs Harley. Anyway, now back to the DSR/x and Experia.
I mostly ride like a little old lady, which is good for range on the electrics, but I doubt if I would ever overheat either motor and I especially doubt if I could ever overheat the brake. Most of my stopping is by the regen, which I always have set up high for going downhill. I use the throttle to adjust for regen. I only fully release the throttle when I want to stop.
For ground clearance, with nobody on the bike, the DSR/x has several more inches. I assume that is the same difference when ridden. That is not surprising as the Experia has a gigantic battery, which is probably the biggest plus on the side of the Experia. They have to put the large battery somewhere and if it were up higher, it would make the bike more top heavy. But I would expect the DSR/x to be better in the dirt, but so far, I have not had either bike off the pavement for more than a few feet.
Most things with motorcycles are trade-offs anyway. Make something better by making something else worse.
For cornering stability, I would say both bikes handle well, feel great while riding (at least until the big shifting wind gusts come) but you really need to ask a much faster rider than I am to do a better comparison WRT anything at speed. I normally stay close to the speed limits (even less if nobody is behind me). On electrics, if charge stops are needed, you get places faster by riding slower.
But IMO, there is a lot more to judge with motorcycles than performance. Such as all the bugs that need fixing in the Experia FW, where the DSR/x had all the bugs worked out before they put the bike on the market. I have yet to find any bug at all of any type with my DSR/x. I get the feeling the Experia was rushed out, as it was already much later than expected to be delivered. I still have no idea why the bike promised in September of 2022 didn't get to most of us me until Feb of 2023. Where they trying to get more of the bugs out? But my big complaint there was not it being late, but that I heard nothing at all from anybody until Jan 2023 when I first heard I will get my bike in Feb., and did.
I would be nice if these bikes would show a FW version number, but I hear it is not shown in any of the user menus.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Very useful info!
@Oilcan, good to hear there is a b-door available for the Zero. It made me look at their website and the special section with all accessories tells all, great!
@Flynnstig82r, no idea where they got the Streetfighter sound compare from (I guess the dBa meter, duh). The only thing that was mentioned was that it was full open-throttle launch from a hairpin and keep going hard uphill until the next pin.
Me, looking for the i-dunno-emoticon.
@Don, the software glitches you mentioned really pulled my enthusiasm down TBH. Especially the stuck charger! Assume you reported it. And strange that you have never been notified of software version updates. It’s not a good thing because I as a potential buyer now know that there isn’t full disclosure on trying to improve, which might affect their sales. It’s just a customer-service type of thing, as you already mentioned (e.g. late delivery w/o info etc).
BTW, now you talked about regen. I always wanted to have regen that brings (my e-car) to a full stop (doesn’t do it)…Don, from your writing I understand they both come to a full stop (if regen was set to high). That’s a good thing IMO: one-handed riding!
FYI: last pic from the magazine. these two bikes' performance comparison and I added 2 strong naked ones on the side - for fun. I guess as known, the pull is at least as good as these strong classified ICEs, looking at the figures.
H….
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@Don, the software glitches you mentioned really pulled my enthusiasm down TBH. Especially the stuck charger! Assume you reported it. And strange that you have never been notified of software version updates. It’s not a good thing because I as a potential buyer now know that there isn’t full disclosure on trying to improve, which might affect their sales. It’s just a customer-service type of thing, as you already mentioned (e.g. late delivery w/o info etc).
BTW, now you talked about regen. I always wanted to have regen that brings (my e-car) to a full stop (doesn’t do it)…Don, from your writing I understand they both come to a full stop (if regen was set to high). That’s a good thing IMO: one-handed riding!
What is your E-car? I own a 2017 Tesla, AWD, LR, and a 2022 Chevy Bolt. Both can come to a stop on regen, but you have to time it right as well as select one-pedal driving in some, such as Tesla. I like the way my Bolt does it better. Has a regen control on the steering wheel that I can use instead of the brake.
Back to the Experia vs. DSR/X:
I have been doing some riding in the dark lately, so I will comment on that.
The high beam is MUCH better on my Experia. Lights up the entire road nicely. Very poor on my DSR/X. Does almost nothing. But I think it is way out of adjustment, which a new bike shouldn't be. It looks like the high beam shoots way up, not even close to the road, making it useless. I wish to hear from other DSR/X owners here on that one, if you have ridden yours at night when very dark. It is so bad on my DSR/x, that there is no reason to even try to use it. I hope it's just mine and can be adjusted correctly.
Back to the cruise controls, but at night. I find it is easy to use at night on the DSR/x and I used it a lot tonight coming back from a 200-mile ride into the CA mountains. While the kill switch is close, just above cruise control button, it is easy to feel and even if you hit the kill switch you will hit it on the "run" side that is already in anyway. Makes it easy to use in the dark. But it is still best to look at it first when light and remember it for night riding. I found it easy to find and use in the dark without even worrying about hitting the kill switch, after I took a good look at it before it got dark.
The cruise control on the Experia is in a very stupid location. It is just above the kill side of the kill switch. I would NOT recommend trying to use it at all when it is dark. But if you can feel for the middle button with gloves on, it is possible. I would rather not even try to use it in the dark on the Experia.
-Don- Reno, NV
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@Don, the software glitches you mentioned really pulled my enthusiasm down TBH. Especially the stuck charger!
Hard to say for sure, but that could be a one-time only glitch. I am just glad it released at the very end of the charge at 100% SOC. I have no idea what I would have done if it still would not release then. IAC, it cut my trip short. I went straight back home after that, with the cruise control "undefined fault" on the way back home. I find those two glitches intolerable.
I don't find the delayed or false messages on the screen to be a big deal. Those didn't kill the motor or anything other than the false (or very delayed) message.
But the charge cable being stuck and the "undefined fault" when trying to use the cruise control (and once in a while when in reverse) is quite a bit different.
Assume you reported it.
Nope, I only mentioned it here. If there is somewhere I should report it, I don't know where, but I will after I find out here or wherever.
-Don- Reno, NV
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@Don, the software glitches you mentioned really pulled my enthusiasm down TBH. Especially the stuck charger!
Hard to say for sure, but that could be a one-time only glitch. I am just glad it released at the very end of the charge at 100% SOC. I have no idea what I would have done if it still would not release then. IAC, it cut my trip short. I went straight back home after that, with the cruise control "undefined fault" on the way back home. I find those two glitches intolerable.
There is no such thing as a one-time only glitch in software! If it happened once, it will happen again. That's what software is especially good at doing.
Cas :)
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@Flynnstig82r, no idea where they got the Streetfighter sound compare from (I guess the dBa meter, duh). The only thing that was mentioned was that it was full open-throttle launch from a hairpin and keep going hard uphill until the next pin.
Me, looking for the i-dunno-emoticon.
I think the main difference is that a loud ICE bike is loud all the time. You can't start it up in a quiet neighborhood in the early hours without pissing everyone off. A "loud" e-motorcycle like the Energicas, OTOH, is only loud when it's already going double or triple the speed limit of a quiet street. The sound meter may read similar results, but only one bike is perceived as obnoxious. Noise levels shouldn't factor into your decision about whether to buy Energica or another brand of e-motorcycle.
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There is no such thing as a one-time only glitch in software! If it happened once, it will happen again. That's what software is especially good at doing.
Cas :)
Well, I hope the next time is shows up is more than 20 years from now.
-Don- Charging up here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/124842)
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I just recalled something else (a rather small thing) I like better on the DSR/x than the Experia. it has a 12-volt outlet, nothing to modify. It can be used as USB with a $1.25 adapter, so I have a choice for 12VDC or USB. But I power my GPS and TPMS with one of these thingies. (https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Garmin-Vehicle-Charging-Dashcam/dp/B07RYND2TR?pd_rd_w=xlU2q&content-id=amzn1.sym.d7105005-1122-4ebb-804b-fda01cf6b56f&pf_rd_p=d7105005-1122-4ebb-804b-fda01cf6b56f&pf_rd_r=9T8ZQFDBD64AYZRTVT0P&pd_rd_wg=MuhqF&pd_rd_r=4ecd00ec-4961-4289-b384-64915dc482be&pd_rd_i=B07RYND2TR&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_d_grid_rp_0_55_i)
The Experia has USB only, so if you want 12 volts, you need to modify the bike a little. While they do make USB to 12V converters, (https://www.amazon.com/SinLoon-USB-Cigarette-Lighter-Adapter/dp/B0BWF2WM1J/ref=sr_1_1?crid=B6HATLPGVFBA&keywords=usb%2Bto%2B12v%2Bdc%2Bcable%2Bon%2Bcigarette%2Badapter&qid=1695591568&sprefix=usb%2Bto%2B12v%2Bdc%2Bcable%2Bon%2Bcigarette%2Badapter%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-1&th=1)they are only good for very low current making them rather useless for almost anything that requires 12V.
I also just noticed while charging my SDR/x here, (https://www.plugshare.com/location/124842) it has a 12V connector on the left side of the battery that is not being used. Perhaps a connector for 12V heated clothing? I have not yet checked the owner's manual. I just now discovered it.
BTW, this sure is a nice place to charge. They not only let non-customers charge (without even asking) I was told I can use the lobby here, while I am waiting to charge. And that is where I am right now.
-Don-
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I went on a nice 211-mile (340 km) ride on the DSR/x today.
And today, I discovered something important while charging here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/350518)in Truckee,CA. By accident.
I always use one of my Chargepoint RFID cards to activate Chargepoint AC charge stations as well as their DC chargers.
While I was fooling around with my laptop computer as I always do at charge stops, I decided to check into my Chargepoint account to see if I could get the information from today's charge while I was a quarter mile away from where the bike was charging. From a picnic table under a bunch of shady trees. I never even looked at the website since the day I ordered my RFID cards-until today.
I discovered by accident I was being stupid with my Energica in South Lake Tahoe the other day when the charge cable was stuck to the Experia. I mentioned I could not find a way to stop the AC charge station from the charge station itself, which was true.
I used the ChargePoint program on my computer to see if I could see the information where I was charging today in Truckee (above link). This is the exact same type of charge station that gave me trouble in South Lake Tahoe the other day where I could not stop the charge on my Experia.
The Chargepoint website showed my charge there in Truckee with a big fat window that said "Stop the Charge."
So I tried it there in Truckee today. It stopped the charge instantly. That was all I had to do the other day in South Lake Tahoe with my Energica when the cable was stuck.
So perhaps that bug is not as serious as I thought. I can start with the card and stop the AC charge station with the computer or tablet which I always have with me while riding.
That sure is nice to know. This will make me more comfortable charging the Experia with AC from now on. At least from J-1772 Chargepoints.
-Don- Reno, NV
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One more thing about the sound: I am just hoping that when at normal highway speed, I don’t have to listen to motor sound, but instead music (assuming there is no wind noise (good screen) and road noise is obviously unavoidable). As such the question for sound …. an important reason for my switch to e.
Don, you could try the Chargpoint app on your mobile phone to start and stop the charging?
P.s. on your question about one-pedal driving. My (old) Tesla model S 85D, does not have that option unfortunately.
Hayo.
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One more thing about the sound: I am just hoping that when at normal highway speed, I don’t have to listen to motor sound, but instead music (assuming there is no wind noise (good screen) and road noise is obviously unavoidable). As such the question for sound …. an important reason for my switch to e.
Don, you could try the ChargePoint app on your mobile phone to start and stop the charging?
P.s. on your question about one-pedal driving. My (old) Tesla model S 85D, does not have that option unfortunately.
Hayo.
If you want extra quiet, you want the Zeros. AFAIK, they are the quietest bikes of all. But it won't help much with road noise and that includes trying to listen to the radio (no matter what method you use) when on freeways.
Yeah, I do have the ChargePoint app on my Smartphone. But I only use the Smartphone (for anything at all including the cellphone) when I have no choice. It's normally off and takes forever to boot up. It is a new 5G and they seem to be even a lot slower to boot up than the older stuff. I normally only use it to active some Electrify America chargers. And if the credit card readers work, I will use a credit card instead. BTW, many credit card readers no longer work on CCS fast chargers because they are trying to use 3G--a system that no longer exists.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Great write up Don, I really enjoy your comparisons and I'm surprised, after a lot of hate for the DSR/X vs Energica, that the DSR/X is getting a lot of love. I personally love the time I got to demo the DSR/X.
I will say, in California I rarely see free level 2 chargers unless it's a destination charger for customers. At least on PlugShare they are fairly rare here in the Bay Area.
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Great write up Don, I really enjoy your comparisons and I'm surprised, after a lot of hate for the DSR/X vs Energica, that the DSR/X is getting a lot of love. I personally love the time I got to demo the DSR/X.
I will say, in California I rarely see free level 2 chargers unless it's a destination charger for customers. At least on PlugShare they are fairly rare here in the Bay Area.
Yeah, free ones are rather scarce in CA, but the norm for Nevada. But exceptions for both.
There are several places I have charged for free in CA, even the free fast charger at the Donner Summit rest stops. But now both of them have been broken for around a year. And I doubt if they will ever be reapaired.
But free AC charging is still a little common in some places in CA, many at train stations such as here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/7224) And also, here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/15562) And the Health Center here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/476972) And many other places, even if rare in the SF Bay area. Expensive property there, so not much of anything is for free in that area.
But even some of my favorite CA charge stops, such as in Truckee, CA (https://www.plugshare.com/location/350518) and Markleeville, CA (https://www.plugshare.com/location/252833)are for free. Even Bridgeport, CA (https://www.plugshare.com/location/546564)where gasoline is near 7 bucks per gallon.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have found several free CCS/CHaDeMo chargers at rest stops in Trinity National Forest on I5 and Eureka Way. They are Chargepoint branded chargers but they didnt charge anything to my account when I used them
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I have found several free CCS/CHaDeMo chargers at rest stops in Trinity National Forest on I5 and Eureka Way. They are Chargepoint branded chargers but they didnt charge anything to my account when I used them
Chargepoint prices are usually set by the property owner. In that case, the State of CA is paying the bill.
Here, the free ChargePoints (https://www.plugshare.com/location/305386) are paid for by the city of Garnerville, NV.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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How do they compare at low speeds especially near zero mph? Is Either more top heavy or drop prone? Seat height difference that might matter to short leg riders?
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How do they compare at low speeds especially near zero mph? Is Either more top heavy or drop prone? Seat height difference that might matter to short leg riders?
I cannot say I have noticed any difference between them with either, but I will take a closer look at each and ride each below 5 MPH sometime after I come back from my RV trip, which starts tomorrow. It kinda started today from Auburn, but I am stopping over at my house here in Reno for one night.
With my 2017 Zero DS on the rear of the RV.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I need to update this old thread. But now more like my "2023 Experia Vs. my 2025 Experia". My 2025 Experia has NO bugs at all, unlike my 2023 Experia. I now have put enough miles on my 2025 Experia to reach this conclusion and my 2025 Experia is quickly becoming my favorite bike of my dozen motorcycles.
My 2023 Experia often dies with an "undefined fault" when I use reverse or the cruise control. Once in a great while even at other times when I am not doing anything at all other than riding, but that has only happened a few times since I owned it. But between the "undefined fault" in reverse and with the cruise control, I normally ride with the "need service" (or whatever Energica calls it) light on.
It dies close to 50% of the time in reverse or when the cruise control is first activated. I cannot make my 2025 fail in such ways no matter how many times I try.
When my 2023 was new, I got caught up in a summer flash flood in Truckee CA that was even forcing cars to stop and wait it out. I-80 turned into a river for a few minutes. I didn't know that could happen in a place such as Truckee, but needless to say my new (then) Experia got soaked. Perhaps this is related to the "undefined faults". Just do not know. But even after a couple of very warm summers, it has not improved.
I make sure I only attempt to use the cruise control on the 2023 when there is very little or no traffic. On the 2025, no need to think about it.
I just now need to remember which bike I am on before using the cruise control in traffic.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I was getting undefined faults every now and again. it was a very specific condition, but when it would happen the bike would die unexpectedly. Keying it on and off fixed it. And the fault did not persist when it would boot up. It was always a low speed thing and more of an annoyance than anything, but the folks in South SF diagnosed it when I went in for a service call by downloading the bike logs.
I learned there are two Power Supply Units. an A-Spec and a B-spec. I get the impression that the A-Spec is older. My bike had the A-spec. They replaced it with a B-spec and I have tried to get the fault to happen since without success.
Maybe bring it to South City and get the service done. They'll extinguish the little wrench icon and maybe they can tell something from the bike logs that will lead to a diagnosis and fix.
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I learned there are two Power Supply Units. an A-Spec and a B-spec. I get the impression that the A-Spec is older. My bike had the A-spec. They replaced it with a B-spec and I have tried to get the fault to happen since without success.
Where is that power supply located? My 2023 was ordered on the very first day possible so it is an early model, vin ending in 00016. Perhaps it's the same issue on my 2023.
BTW, I used to live within walking distance of the SSF shop, so I know right where it is, but I have not been in that area for years. I hate even driving a car to the west bay area. More so when on a bike! But if I need to, I will if I get tired of the bugs.
Shop wasn't there when I lived in SSF (nine years ago) and at that time I never even heard of Energica. I don't know when they started.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Mine is #0094 so you probably got one of the older ones too.
Maybe @Demoni can chime in with a description or location for the PSU. I don't see it in the service manual, but then the manual calls the horn the "Acoustic Signaling Device" so......maybe I just don't know what the Italian to English translation is. lol
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I dunno about Experia BUT on Ego platform it's inside the inspection plate on the front of the battery box and Experia is designed by the same people.