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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Zelidar on July 28, 2023, 05:38:18 PM
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When accelerating under load - for example when climbing a slope with a passenger - there are between 3 and 4 resonance points which, for short moments, cause additional vibrations and a considerably louder noise. For my this is only annoying at low speed, > 10 & < 40 kph.
To compare I did a short trip with a 10,000 km old SR/F a few months ago and noticed the same sound behavior when accelerating, but much less loud. My SR/F now has 63,000 km and I think this is related with higher mileages and the use of a belt drive. I suspect this could also be noticeable on older Zero models.
Has anyone else noticed this? Can this be eliminated, or at least mitigated?
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Same thing on my DS and it does my head in, it mostly does it in the slow speed situations where I'd be riding around pedestrians so of course they turn around to see what the hell is making that god awful noise. I suspect it's also caused by the belt drive, I've tried aligning, tensioning, and cleaning it with a minor improvement but it's still not as quiet as when I first got the bike. It's one of the reason I want to switch to chain drive.
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Did you try going on a diet so it's not under such a tremendous load? :P
Aaron
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Not sure who you're referring to, but the funny thing is me and my DS together actually weigh less than an SR/f on its own.
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Same thing on my DS and it does my head in, it mostly does it in the slow speed situations where I'd be riding around pedestrians so of course they turn around to see what the hell is making that god awful noise.
Thank you for sharing your experience on this.
When I want to stay as quiet as possible, like in pedestrian zones, I slightly lower the torque as I hit those RPM resonance points, just long enough to accelerate past them. Overall, this is just an annoyance and I didn't notice any impact on performance.
Belts were used on ICE bikes long before Zero existed, but I guess it takes powerful electric bikes such are the Zero's to start noticing that kind of noise.
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Yes, I believe all Zero owners have experienced this to some degree. It drove me batty for the first few hundred miles on my SR/S until I discovered what it was. The belts have a resonant frequency, which can setup some nasty sounding vibrations. This is more pronounced at lower speeds, and tighter belt tensions. I don't think there is any way to eliminate it entirely, but best practices seem to be to run your belt on the lower end of the recommended range and ensure that the belt is riding in the middle of the motor and wheel pulleys. I even run my belt slightly below recommended tension and that helped the vibration noises immensely. I may end up going through a belt sooner, but I'll take that for reduced noise and load on the front motor bearing.
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... but best practices seem to be to run your belt on the lower end of the recommended range and ensure that the belt is riding in the middle of the motor and wheel pulleys. I even run my belt slightly below recommended tension and that helped the vibration noises immensely.
Thanks for those tips LeverCommaJohn. For the lack of a better solution I will do just that, on my next dealership trip I will have my third belt mounted and also a little less tight than is today. I will report here the results.
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To put this problem into perspective, the last two days I rode 660 km during about 19 hours. I had a blast. In comparison, I highly doubt that the totals of these annoying noises would be greater than 200 m and 5 mins. Overall I'm still glad to have a belt drive instead of a chain drive, good riddance to lubricating the chain and to those pesky black stains.
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They make guards that keep the gunk from flying off the chains. They also make a wax type lube that dries on the chain so it don't fling all over. Im using that now on my bike and so far, everything been pretty clean and quiet. How it works long run we'll see, but there are ways to keep chain spatter down, including not putting so much goop on it!
Aaron
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To put this problem into perspective, the last two days I rode 660 km during about 19 hours. I had a blast. In comparison, I highly doubt that the totals of these annoying noises would be greater than 200 m and 5 mins. Overall I'm still glad to have a belt drive instead of a chain drive, good riddance to lubricating the chain and to those pesky black stains.
My situation is the opposite, a lot of stop start riding at lower speeds. I was just reading the service manual and there's a section on belt noise and they actually suggest applying some dry silicone lube. I thought that lubing the belt was a no-no but I guess I'll give that a go.
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My situation is the opposite, a lot of stop start riding at lower speeds. I was just reading the service manual and there's a section on belt noise and they actually suggest applying some dry silicone lube. I thought that lubing the belt was a no-no but I guess I'll give that a go.
I would consider it a no-no. There was a guy here a few years back that thought it would be the thing to do. His belt broke shortly after.
I would let no more than water touch my belts.
BTW, there are hundreds of threads in this forum about Zero belts. For the most part, they last a very long time when nothing is done other than checking the alignment and play. Exceptions are they often break on potholes or when the wheel leaves the ground and the wheel speed increases before it hits the ground again.
I decelerate over bumps that I can see, such as train tracks and such.
-Don- Reno, NV
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TheRan you really should not put any lube on a drive belt. First it defeats the purpose of the belt, you don't want any slipping really, and secondly, without knowing exactly what is in the lube, it might be dangerous. The chemicals in the lube could interact with the belt and wear it out or worse cause it to somewhat melt or burn and if you burnish the riding area where it engages the wheel, now you got a real mess to have to clean up / clean off before putting a new belt on.
Don't they make belt dressing that is supposed to stop pulley squeaking? Not sure it'd work on a drive belt though.
Aaron
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I noticed some noises and buzzes at certain times on my FX.
Mostly it happens when riding around my neighborhood at slower speeds, sometimes it's the regen, sometimes it's just the perfect amount of throttle. What makes it stand out are the spokes in the wheels.
When it resonates just right it sounds like all the spokes are vibrating against each other in the rear wheel.
I keep my belt tension in the middle of the range.
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My situation is the opposite, a lot of stop start riding at lower speeds. I was just reading the service manual and there's a section on belt noise and they actually suggest applying some dry silicone lube. I thought that lubing the belt was a no-no but I guess I'll give that a go.
I would consider it a no-no. There was a guy here a few years back that thought it would be the thing to do. His belt broke shortly after.
-Don- Reno, NV
TheRan you really should not put any lube on a drive belt. First it defeats the purpose of the belt, you don't want any slipping really, and secondly, without knowing exactly what is in the lube, it might be dangerous. The chemicals in the lube could interact with the belt and wear it out or worse cause it to somewhat melt or burn and if you burnish the riding area where it engages the wheel, now you got a real mess to have to clean up / clean off before putting a new belt on.
Don't they make belt dressing that is supposed to stop pulley squeaking? Not sure it'd work on a drive belt though.
Aaron
The thing is this is coming straight from Zero, and they recommend dry silicone specifically. They say to use a very little amount and I can't imagine it causing any slipping, it's not a friction belt and for that to happen the tension would have to be extremely low for the teeth on the belt to ride up and over those on the pulley. They say it's mostly caused by friction between the side of the belt and the lips of the pulleys and to adjust the alignment before resorting to lube, applying it to the teeth of the belt is more an easier method to spread it over the pulleys. I've aligned my rear pulley and it's hard to see and tell but I think the belt still rubs on the motor pulley and that's much more difficult to sort out.
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The thing is this is coming straight from Zero, and they recommend dry silicone specifically.
Not only has Zero recommended it, but Gates (the manufacturer of the belts) as well. The dry silicone is a repellant that will prevent debris from getting between the belt and pulleys, thereby preventing damage to the belts. However, I didn't find that it helped with the noise at all, despite what others may claim.
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Oh, if the manu said it was ok then well, i guess it is! That's kind of weird that a toothed belt would resonate that badly, you'd think that the teeth coming in and out as it spins would change it's resonant frequency a bit. Not sure if this would help but,are there any aftermarket belts that may be made of something different that may not have that issue? To bad you can't put clackers on it like power lines, or a tensioner that just rides on top to disrupt any vibes that start setting up.
side of the belt and lips of the pulley. How tightly does the belt fit into the pulley, is there any side to side room at all? If not, I wonder what a pulley ever so slightly wider may do, so it's not forced onto the sides like that. also those pulleys I can see being mass produced, and essentially just cast /stamped out. If you could get a machinist to polish one up for you on the inner walls that might help too, or maybe you could do it, hell .. pulling this out my ass, Q tip and super fine lapping rubbing compound to smooth it up a bit. Since you don't want friction on the walls, it should help quite a bit.
How much do you feel like playing with it? :D
Aaron
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At this point we can only try "medications" but I get the feeling that if Zero had the resources of a company 10 times larger than them, they would fix it before it even occurs, by design: Setting up a team of engineers, gather vibration data and analyze the hell of that, then design the belt drive so that it never resonates over the belt's lifetime.
This is a costly undertaking that a small company cannot afford.
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Are they the only belt driven bike in town? If not, how do the other ones fare? IF so, then maybe they may want to look into WHY the others are not belt driven as well?
It wouldn't be that costly if they truly cared, but that 'problem' is just a cosmetic one really, and nothing to be overly worried about when they are facing recalls for this, that and the next thing burning up, burning out, or just burning.
There are plenty of other devices and machinery that are belt driven in industry, look at how they solved the problem and copy that. Companies steal each others ideas all the time!
Aaron
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Attached is a copy of what is written in the service manual.
You can check that it is exactly what is said in the Gates FAQ here, in the section "My drive is squeaking or making noise, what's the cause, and how do I fix it?": https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/resources/faqs
And they also recommend this product : CRC 05074 Heavy Duty Silicone Lubricant
I also think that these products should not damage the belt.
I have two Zero.
My 2016 FXS has a thin belt and makes a rather happy and pleasant whistle. It sometimes growls in the rain, but that is not really a problem.
On the contrary, my 2023 S has a larger belt and it grunts and makes a noise of pain, particularly at slow speed. It also makes a terrific noise when I ride at constant speed around 90 km/h (55 mph), that probably comes from a resonance. I have checked the belt tension (on the lower side of the range recommended by Zero), and the belt alignment seems perfect. I would really like to find a solution, since these noises spoil the riding pleasure!
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Are they the only belt driven bike in town? If not, how do the other ones fare? IF so, then maybe they may want to look into WHY the others are not belt driven as well?
AFAIK, Zero *IS* the only belt driven electric. HD famously uses (used?) belts on their bikes, but you sure aren't going to hear them over their engine. LOL
This is only an issue because our bikes are otherwise so deadly silent. Do we really complain about the sound of the brakes or suspension? The belt really shouldn't be any different. It's still SO much quieter than a chain or those gearboxes on the Livewire and Energicas.
*edit* It does appear that the S2 Del Mar uses a belt for final drive, but those are still unicorns and I haven't heard any reports from actual owners yet.
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Speaking of belt-drive motorcycles, my 1985 Kawasaki GPz305 had a rear drive rubber belt - made by the Japanese company "Bando". ::) It seemed to work OK, for the 14,000 miles that I owned the bike before selling it.
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Energicas started as race bikes and as such they can't risk a belt snapping on the track. Chains don't really snap so they stuck with them.
Both the Livewire 1 and S2 Del Mar use belts. The only reason the Livewire motor makes the sounds it does are the helical gear mounted to the motor shaft to compensate for the longitudinally mounted motor. Helical gears are quieter than straight-cut gears but they have a distinct sound that H-D tried to claim was some sort of carefully thought-out and precisely planned signature sound unique to the blah blah blah. Noep. Helical gear.
Zero's direct mounted belt is going to sound similar to any other mid drive belt bike, like a Tarform Luna.
Funny thing to note is all this is only really a low-speed thing. At high speeds all the electric motors sound really similar. Several weeks ago I was at Laguna Seca watching the Moto America Super Hooligans races in which there was both an Energica Ribelle and a Zero SR/F. I was there primarily to watch the Energica. As it completed a lap on the long straightaway it gave off that very distinctive high-pitched scream from the motor. After it disappeared a few of us started absentmindedly chatting but freaked out about 30 seconds later when we thought we heard the bike again and turned around in surprise to watch the SR/F go past. One could easily be mistaken for another at high speeds.
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I have a new 23 DSR and it's been super loud since the first mile, now at a little over 400 miles, it's exactly the same, I spent 4 hrs adjusting the belt for alignment and tension, it was about a mm off to the inside, now it's a mm off the shoulder of the sprocket, I forget the tension I'm running but it's half way between recommended specs, it's the only gripe I have with the bike and honestly, it's quite annoying.
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Just to add. I did have the chain kit installed at first, but went back to the belt because the chain is quite noisy. Makes any belt noises seem trivial. Of course any belt noises I get are mostly at lower speeds, the chain however is noisy all the time.
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We know Zero has made changes regarding the belt drive on the DSR/X:
<<< In order to avoid moving to chain drive, Zero increased the Gates belt width from 20mm to 25mm and used a higher strength core, resulting in a belt drive that was over twice as strong as on the SR/F and SR/S. The drive also makes use of Gates’ Mudport technology, which helps clear debris from the belt pulley and is critical for off-road riding. >>>
| Feature | Zero SR/SF | Zero DSR/X |
| Belt width | 20mm | 25mm |
| Wheel Pulley Teeth | 90T | 90T |
| Motor Pulley Teeth | 20T | 22T |
| Belt core strength | Standard | High strength |
| Mudport | No | Yes |
| Intended use | On-road | On- and off-road |
From my own short test drive (45 min) I noticed that the basic belt noise was slightly higher on the DSR/X, I put that on its larger size. I didn't notice any resonance, or other extra noise.
Any DSR/X owner/tester can speak from a longer experience? Did Zero address that concern?
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At the end of the day. How loud is the bike, belt noise and all, as compared to an ICE of similar size / hp?
Perhaps you are just noticing it more because everything else is so much more quieter that it has become the main noise instead of the mufflers??
Aaron
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I don't care about there being some noise and that's why I'm considering switching to a chain, I'm not after a completely silent bike. What does bother me is when it sound like there's something wrong with my bike and people turn around thinking there's some old beater car with a loose alternator belt coming past.
I found some silicone lube and tried that on the belt and it's made a big difference, it still has some of the higher pitched whine but the groaning at low speeds and the vibration that I'd feel through the footpegs is pretty much gone.
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Install a loud stereo system on the bike, play it loudly. There, offending, obnoxious noises go away, unless you are playing rap music that is.
Aaron
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This may or may not help, or even be the same issue, but I had a similar problem I resolved by rotating the rear sprocket.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11202.0
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This may or may not help, or even be the same issue, but I had a similar problem I resolved by rotating the rear sprocket.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11202.0
Another great feedback, best one I could hope. I didn't see that post of yours, many thanks.
Doing it fully correctly like NetPro did, that's currently out of my reach. Now I have something else to talk about for my next trip to my Zero dealer.
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Shy of an eminent bearing failure which you may or may not be able to even detect with the bike assembled or a poorly aligned belt (even less likely), a come-and-go vibration is likely an instability in the torque control PID loop. Or more simply, a gain is too high, probably proportional, but I'm really blind guessing without seeing a log of RPM versus Iq, Id, and torque demand.
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So happy to find this topic !
Here is my new topic on exactly the same subject : https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=13432.0
Here is the bad sound captured in video, is it the same ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaeadSbHQRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaeadSbHQRA)
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Ouch, my ears. She's gonna blow!