ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: PWM on July 24, 2023, 09:36:02 AM
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Thought this would never happen....limp mode activates only after 1% SOC so the cells are indeed balanced BUT she never displayed better than 97% full after balance and once there, charges at 0-amps for well over an hour consistently. The 4-amp balance charge does activate once the pack is depleted below 95% and "re-plugging" once at 97% has no effect.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XzMFFth/0/f20ca6b0/L/i-XzMFFth-L.jpg (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XzMFFth/0/f20ca6b0/L/i-XzMFFth-L.jpg)
Taking this measure is blamed on 10% intermittent duty usage @ 50-80% SOC conditions, balanced every other charge - VCU loses sense of what "100%" is hence a page from Eva days of old to re-calibrate.
The 80/20 Hwy/Town mix mileage @ 130 meets all expectations for healthy pack. The power delivery was impressive down to 10% then all of sudden the green, yellow, red load indicators start working first time since new which helped to regulate throttle input, neat feature...she's charging now @ 3KW L2.
Firmware V37. I bought her to commute but since moving she lacks range, comfort and handling attributes compared to a trusted R1250RT...
Keeping fingers crossed because she's such a hoot to ride.
The following is encouraging...like was said at 97% SOC this is new normal...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HgWXvgk/0/5f275613/L/i-HgWXvgk-L.jpg (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HgWXvgk/0/5f275613/L/i-HgWXvgk-L.jpg)
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PWM, I find that sometimes charging gets goofy, and have seen it, for lack of a better word, stall at times.
it seems that it causes most the problems when the bike is turned OFF, you plug in the charger, and then it I guess you could call it, turns on to charge... but is not really on all the way. Sometimes the charge is there and it won't end, and it won't unlock the charger, you can't interrupt it, etc. What I have had to do is hold the power button down for like 20 seconds sometimes to force it to turn off, then push to turn back on, and it gets back into a 'normal' .. the way it should work, charging mode then and finishes the charge.
just for S and G's turn the bike ON first, then plug it in and initiate a charge and see if it fixes that. let is set 20 minutes or so, see if it does something for you. Also completely unplug the CCS plug too so it's powered down from the wall, and then turn it back on. No they are not supposed to have any sort of 'memory' in them but you never know nowadays with all the fucking spyware everywhere so just to be sure everything IS totally reset.
I had my bike hang at 98 percent once and this fixed it right up.
Aaron
EDIT: Let me also add. Although i do not KNOW for a FACT this caused / causes your problem, 'these' problems but power quality tends to be a HUGE thing with all these smart electronics. If you get any glitches, surges, blips etc, it can make things act wonky. I see stupid shit with my neat gadgety washing machine and dryer sometimes too when power flickers or the lights dim during a storm etc etc. Unplug for a minute to let everything drain down and reset tends to fix all these little bugs and woes.
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My Eva is a CCS virgin so no will not do anything silly like that...besides as it was said, balance is everything and these bikes only do so in L1/L2 charge mode.
VCU counts coulombs and to do so accurately it needs a reference and a teach point. The (2) that qualify are deep-limp-mode and 0% SOC.
The following proves it...the process serves as a stress test that won't be repeated for years.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NCWT2ZS/0/91775240/L/i-NCWT2ZS-L.jpg (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NCWT2ZS/0/91775240/L/i-NCWT2ZS-L.jpg)
It's now on 0-amps at 99% so conclusion is 1% loss under std 3yr warranty as measured.
Off to a 20% ride before work tomorrow...
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You are still at FW version 37?
Consider updating (current version is 42 which has been already revised once).
If I remember correctly, this 42 corrected several issues and non-full-charging was one of them.
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You are still at FW version 37?
Consider updating (current version is 42 which has been already revised once).
If I remember correctly, this 42 corrected several issues and non-full-charging was one of them.
Do appreciate the suggestion but waiting for the Fob Alert nuisance to be corrected. Of all the updates made, speedo correction, PIN entry cannot think of any core functionality changes so nothing gained by updating at this time. My Eva is rock solid w/ poor illumination for night riding will have to sit at 87% SOC until next weekend.
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My Eva is a CCS virgin so no will not do anything silly like that...besides as it was said, balance is everything and these bikes only do so in L1/L2 charge mode.
First I heard that! When I CCS charge my Energicas, at around 80% SOC it says "cell balancing" right on my screen.
It's best to balance at home because on the road it takes too long when the SOC is way up and most of us do not want to wait all day for a full charge unless we really need it to make it to the next charge station.
At home, we normally do not care how long it takes to charge to full so that is a good time to let it balance. But shouldn't charge to full too often, just once in a while to help with the balance. I put my Energicas in the LPR mode if I will not be using them for a while.
-Don- Reno, NV
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From Ribelle owners manual...
"Charging the batteries in DC mode does not balance the cells of the battery pack. The battery pack may only be balanced by charging fully to 100% charge in AC mode"
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From Ribelle owners manual...
"Charging the batteries in DC mode does not balance the cells of the battery pack. The battery pack may only be balanced by charging fully to 100% charge in AC mode"
Yes, that is my understanding as well. It is in black and white. The charging up to 80% is enabled to proceed more quickly without balancing action going on which by definition slows down the charge to balance the lower voltage cells up to the higher voltage cells. I often don't see the "Balancing" message until 85%. I suspect the balancing message is just a prompt, and not actually triggered by the balancing process being in effect.
They could have designed a software that would balance charge from any point, but that was not the choice made.
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Yes, that is my understanding as well. It is in black and white. The charging up to 80% is enabled to proceed more quickly without balancing action going on which by definition slows down the charge to balance the lower voltage cells up to the higher voltage cells. I often don't see the "Balancing" message until 85%. I suspect the balancing message is just a prompt, and not actually triggered by the balancing process being in effect.
They could have designed a software that would balance charge from any point, but that was not the choice made.
Do you see the balancing message when you CCS charge like I do on my Energicas? The charge rate slows down a lot above 85% SOC even when CCS is used.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yes, that is my understanding as well. It is in black and white. The charging up to 80% is enabled to proceed more quickly without balancing action going on which by definition slows down the charge to balance the lower voltage cells up to the higher voltage cells. I often don't see the "Balancing" message until 85%. I suspect the balancing message is just a prompt, and not actually triggered by the balancing process being in effect.
They could have designed a software that would balance charge from any point, but that was not the choice made.
Do you see the balancing message when you CCS charge like I do on my Energicas? The charge rate slows down a lot above 85% SOC even when CCS is used.
-Don- Reno, NV
I only level one or level 2 charge at home. I have yet to use a CCS charging station so I have no experience with that process. If the system switches from DC to AC above 80% that would explain the slowdown in rate of charge as the balance charge procedure begins.
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I only level one or level 2 charge at home. I have yet to use a CCS charging station so I have no experience with that process. If the system switches from DC to AC above 80% that would explain the slowdown in rate of charge as the balance charge procedure begins.
That doesn't make any sense. Batteries can only be charged with DC. When you charge with AC from your J-1772 or whatever, the charger inside the bike converts it to DC. If you charge with CCS, it is DC direct to the battery, bike's charger is not then being used.
But I hear there is an automatic switching from constant current to constant voltage near the end of the charge. Could that be what you're confused with?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I only level one or level 2 charge at home. I have yet to use a CCS charging station so I have no experience with that process. If the system switches from DC to AC above 80% that would explain the slowdown in rate of charge as the balance charge procedure begins.
That doesn't make any sense. Batteries can only be charged with DC. When you charge with AC from your J-1772 or whatever, the charger inside the bike converts it to DC. If you charge with CCS, it is DC direct to the battery, bike's charger is not then being used.
But I hear there is an automatic switching from constant current to constant voltage near the end of the charge. Could that be what you're confused with?
-Don- Reno, NV
True, the actual charge to the battery gets converted to DC even if charging from AC. I am speculating that the charging software in the Energica does not ever enter balance mode when the source of charge is DC. It seems to activate balancing only when the source of charge is AC.
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True, the actual charge to the battery gets converted to DC even if charging from AC. I am speculating that the charging software in the Energica does not ever enter balance mode when the source of charge is DC. It seems to activate balancing only when the source of charge is AC.
How would the battery even know where its DC is coming from? I would think the only difference would be the charge rate.
I also wonder if the Ribelle is somehow different. I don't think my owner's manuals say it only balances when charged on AC.
Hopefully, Demoni pops in here to explain.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Found this. Not about the Energica but explains why balancing is only accomplished with an AC charge source.
https://www.mgevs.com/threads/mg-zs-ev-battery-charging-and-balancing.10002/post-168870
Just a point of clarification about balance charging. Balance charging only occurs when the normal AC charge (ie on Granny Charger or Type 2 charging from either a home wall charger or public charging post) and cannot be done after reaching 100% on a public DC Rapid Charger. The reason is that a balance charge is a slow low power charge and is delivered over a completely different set of wiring connecting each cell in the battery pack to the Battery Management System (otherwise known as the BMS). One of the functions of the BMS is to look at the charge of each Cell in the Battery Pack and finetune the charge on each cell so that the pack as a whole performs optimally. This fine-tuning may take as little as 20 minutes but if there have been a lot of charge/discharge cycles whether as overnight AC charges or Rapid DC chargers since the last Balance charge, then the individual cell voltages will be more varied from one to another. This is because when normally charged or driven the batteries are connected in series that is one after the other with the positive of one to the negative of its neighbour, like batteries in a flashlight. This way the individual 4 or so volts get added together to form the EV's 400-450 volt High Voltage Traction Battery. In an ideal world, every battery cell would be identical and when charged with a High Voltage they would all charge up equally. In the real world every cell is unique and when charged some will charge a little better and others a little less well but by only tiny fractions of a volt. But as the EV is driven and is discharged and then charged these minute differences accumulate. So next time the battery is fully charged to the set 100% the BMS stops the high voltage charging of the pack end to end and using the thin wires connected between each cell the BMS first senses the voltages of each cell and then using the preprogrammed algorithm delivers small adjustments of charge at low voltage. This is why after a 7 kW AC charge over several hours the charge will drop from 7,000 watts to only 200-300 watts during the balance charge. This Balance or Equalisation Charge will trickle charge normally for 20 to 30 minutes if done once every week or so but if the cells are way out of balance it will go on either until all the cells are within limits or 3 to 6 hours before time out (depending on the BMS and pack size).
One final point on charging. There are broadly two main types of Lithium Ion battery cells being used in EVs today and MG is using both types namely the Lithium Nickle Manganese Cobolt known as "Li-Ion" or "Li-NMC" and the "Lithium-Iron-Phosphate" cell chemistry also called "Li-FePO4" or "LFP" for short. There are many reasons why one battery chemistry should be chosen over another but suffice to say that in a given volume you get a greater Electrical Energy Capacity ie kWH with Li-Ion but LFP is less expensive, more stable (doesn't catch fire) and doesn't use controversial Cobolt.
51 kWh MG4 Standard Range and MG ZS Facelift Standard for example have LFP and their Long Range brothers and sisters have Li-Ion. You'd notice the practical difference on the CHarging Screen of the Infotainment system. The Li-Ion cars have the ability to set an 80% charge limit for daily use and a 100% charge limit for the full range if you have a longer trip or you want to do a balance charge. This is because Li-Ion degrades more quickly if charged to 100% and kept at a high state of charge. With LFP EVs, you cannot set 80% limit because LFP chemistry is stable at 100% state of charge (SOC), and doing so is beneficial to the long-term cell health.
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Regarding high-side balance, the weak cells with less capacity are the ones that charge the fastest and are subjected to iterative short discharge / charge cycles while the strong ones top up. The same weak cells are the ones that invoke limp mode when pack is in a severe depleated SOC. The weak cells start off as weak from the factory and remain the weakest of the bunch for life. In my case having limp mode activate after bike hit 1% SOC is very comforting to know that cells are generally all healthy and exposure to the deep discharge was the only way to know hence why it won't be repeated for a long time regardless of what the display shows for full charge.
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" cannot be done after reaching 100% on a public DC Rapid Charger. "
Of course not. The CCS charger will shut off right at 100% SOC. But ny screen says it is balancing well before 100% even during a CCS charge. At least on my 2020 SS9-. I cannot remember if my Experia does the same. I will check during my next CCS charge with it.
-Don- Reno, NV
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...
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From the Manual
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From the Manual
My 2020 SS9- manual:
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But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.
I wonder why the difference.
The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.
I wonder why the difference.
The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.
-Don- Auburn, CA
The BMS is likely the same in all the bikes, despite the screen indication. Try and get confirmation from Energica about this. I will do the same.
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Well since we are hopefully getting Energica involved.
WHY isn't the balancing a passive thing, ie the Wheatstone bridge type thingy that is very efficient and compact to slide pretty much anywhere, especially as it only needs to slide a few amps max? If it is, then the balancing takes place pretty much all the time then no?
How is the Energica's pack laid out (if you are allowed to say) is it 6 x 48 volt modules? if so then this setup would be very easy with COTS parts that are very cost effective.
Just curious is all.
Aaron
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WHY isn't the balancing a passive thing.
How is the Energica's pack laid out (if you are allowed to say) is it 6 x 48 volt modules?
Just curious is all.
Aaron
Ballancing is passive, its just a shunt load like a resistor that gets switched across a cell group so cells will not overcharge while the rest top up, that's why it happens at the end of charge, the balance system is likely hardware driven not computer controlled given the characteristics, certainly initiated by VCU...
Pack configuration is somewhat easy to figure out...230VDC @ 21500kWhrs
3.7V per cell so 230/3.7 = 60cells to a module x2 = 180 cells * 30Ahr = 5400kWhr per module so two in parallel with another (2) in parallel is the pack configuration. The BMS manages 180 cells because of the parallel modules. Cells charge to 4.2V but that's not the value used to compute capacity. I'm thinking the cells are 32Amp/hr each - math is rough but close enough.
There's a patent drawing on the 13.5K Energica pack, it's public info patent covers the cooling method which is effetive and worthy to look at to get a better iunderstanding of the 21.5kW pack configuration and it's a good reference for general construction...when it's found it will be posted on this thread.
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https://patents.justia.com/patent/9941556 (https://patents.justia.com/patent/9941556)
A pdf copy has illustrations not sure where / how to link to it's on a different computer.
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Pack configuration is somewhat easy to figure out...230VDC @ 21500kWhrs
3.7V per cell so 230/3.7 = 60cells to a module x2 = 180 cells * 30Ahr = 5400kWhr per module so two in parallel with another (2) in parallel is the pack configuration. The BMS manages 180 cells because of the parallel modules. Cells charge to 4.2V but that's not the value used to compute capacity. I'm thinking the cells are 32Amp/hr each - math is rough but close enough.
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Sorry for the baffle with bullshit session blaming it on groggy state of mind to realize pack voltage is all wrong but who's really paying attention...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XbLjvPh/0/14cee10e/M/i-XbLjvPh-M.jpg (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XbLjvPh/0/14cee10e/M/i-XbLjvPh-M.jpg)
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But my Experia manual does say it only balances in the AC mode (on page 134), unlike my SS9- that says it is balancing right on the screen during a DC fast charge.
I wonder why the difference.
The battery is different, but I do not understand why one can balance in during a fast charge and the other cannot.
-Don- Auburn, CA
@Demoni explained how the balancing process works in this thread:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12781.0
"The balancing process starts when the first cell chain reaches the preset max voltage. What % SOC the battery will start balancing depend on the delta between the highest and lowest cell voltages. The bike will show a SOC of 100% once the cell voltage delta is within the set range."
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@Demoni explained how the balancing process works in this thread:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12781.0 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12781.0)
"The balancing process starts when the first cell chain reaches the preset max voltage. What % SOC the battery will start balancing depend on the delta between the highest and lowest cell voltages. The bike will show a SOC of 100% once the cell voltage delta is within the set range."
Thanks, but I already read that message.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I confirm you can balance (reaching 100% SOC) charge an Energica battery using CCS. We have a 6kW DC unit in the shop that I often use to charge our bikes.
However DC chargers you will encounter in the wild have circuits optimized to provide high current output and may not be able step down their charge rates for cell balancing. Public stations will often time out when a vehicle requests 0A.
Not to mention the very nature of DC charging is to add energy to your vehicle fast and continue your trip, leaving a bike plugged in for many hours is counter intuitive.
I am unfamiliar with the protocols used for Chademo it is possible that standard does not allow for balancing. This could explain the blanket statement in the manual.
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My charger will go down to 1 amp and will balance the battery. What I have found a few times though is, it happens fast, so am kind of curious how much real balancing has really happened, and another quirk seems to be it will end the charge saying 100 percent charged then later that day, you turn the bike on and it's at like 98 or 99 percent. Makes me think the balancing may have kept on going after the charger turned off at 100 percent, (which it may have assumed as soon as cell voltage hit the peak, then dropped again as the cells shuffled current 'tween each other to balance'), when you look again later, the slightly reduced voltage, because the cells now are balanced, makes it read 99 percent.
Maybe it's a heat thing too, charging cells are warmer, and hotter cells will typically have higher voltage readings, and when they cool back down, the voltage sags a bit, which of course could trigger a less than 100 percent reading as well.
This also may be indicative that an AC balance is much preferred over DC because it's slow and easy and the batteries are more at room temp and their final voltages will be more realistic to an honest charge state and not biased because of the charging heat added to the pack.
Aaron
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I confirm you can balance (reaching 100% SOC) charge an Energica battery using CCS. We have a 6kW DC unit in the shop that I often use to charge our bikes.
However DC chargers you will encounter in the wild have circuits optimized to provide high current output and may not be able step down their charge rates for cell balancing. Public stations will often time out when a vehicle requests 0A.
Not to mention the very nature of DC charging is to add energy to your vehicle fast and continue your trip, leaving a bike plugged in for many hours is counter intuitive.
I am unfamiliar with the protocols used for Chademo it is possible that standard does not allow for balancing. This could explain the blanket statement in the manual.
Very helpful information. Thank you. The manual had me thinking otherwise.