ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Merlin on June 28, 2023, 07:25:19 PM
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Seeking opinions.
Have owned many motorcycles since adolescence starting with dirt bikes. Over the years, have owned dirt bikes up to XR650 and street bikes up to CB1000s. I am old(er) now (mid 60s) and less adventuresome. Want to get a bike for casual street and dirt road riding. Size wise, I am 71” tall x 150 lbs.
One of the of the bikes I am considering is a Zero DS. I have level 2 charging in my garage. The other bike I am considering is a Honda CB500X. Thoughts?
I would be interested in hearing from folks who have owned Zero bikes, especially a DS. Have you been happy with your Zeros compared to nonelectric bikes you owned.
Also from riders who might live in the Austin and San Antonio, TX area, any opinions on AF1 Racing and/or Mission City as dealers.
Thanks very much!
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Hey Merlin,
I own a 2022 DS and I'm really happy with going the electric route. I mostly use my bike for commuting and it is an excellent commuter, great in the city and still some guts to keep up on the highway. As far as for dirt riding I can't lend much of an opinion but depending on how close the trails are to you I would consider the DSR as it will have more legs to get you to and from the trials while still giving you enough juice to get some mud on the tires.
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If you're considering the DS you might also consider the FX. AF1 is a solid dealer; I haven't heard people say bad things about them. You're probably in very good hands with them.
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Hey Merlin,
I own a 2022 DS and I'm really happy with going the electric route. I mostly use my bike for commuting and it is an excellent commuter, great in the city and still some guts to keep up on the highway. As far as for dirt riding I can't lend much of an opinion but depending on how close the trails are to you I would consider the DSR as it will have more legs to get you to and from the trials while still giving you enough juice to get some mud on the tires.
Super helpful. Thank you.
I have some off road opportunities within a few miles of me. In addition, I was looking for a bike that could go into the back of my pickup or onto the hitch rack. The DS, FX and CB500X can all go onto the hitch rack.
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If you're considering the DS you might also consider the FX. AF1 is a solid dealer; I haven't heard people say bad things about them. You're probably in very good hands with them.
Thanks very much.
I am considering the FX. The seat height is quite a bit higher and my inseam is not long enough to flat foot
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Merlin, I am an Energica fan myself, but one thing to consider, the E bikes are heavy, especially the ones with some balls behind them. Batteries are not light and a motor that power dense is not a tin can either. Into a back of a pickup w/o help might be a dangerous feat if you were to tip it halfway up a ramp. Id stick with a trailer or another type of hitching system.
Another option to keep an open mind on is, history. How many times is a bike being recalled over battery issues, this, that and other serious things like that. Yes Yes I know ANYone can have problems, but some seem to be having a lot more problems than others are.
Id take a serious look thru this forum, and other places online and see what a bike / a manufacturers general past history is like. If a bike is constantly in the shop or needing it's battery changed out because of a defect for the nth teenth time... do you want to deal with that really? For me at least, reliability is a BIG issue.
Aaron
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My inseam is 30" and with some off road boots and enough sag set I can flat foot my DS. While the FX's seat is 1.5" higher I imagine I could manage that as well, it's a narrower seat and with more suspension travel on the rear it'll have more sag. For off road riding you'll probably want to replace the tyres on the DS, the stock ones are a little disappointing. Also you're like an inch taller than me and I have I think 1 inch bar risers and even then I find myself wanting more when standing, so you might want to get risers as well as switch to some taller bars.
Other than those two niggles I think it works pretty well off road, fairly light if you get the 7.2 model, more than enough torque, super easy to ride slowly especially compared to a gas bike. It's also nice being quiet and not disturbing anyone else and being able to stop and take in the scenery without having to faff about putting the bike in neutral or even killing the engine.
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Neither the DS and FX have any rein in on their traction - they're very easy to highside and lowside - unlike the CB500 which you can merrily thrash the wheels off without fear. Bear that in mind. (I've got a CB500 too... well, Mrs. Prince has... I use it when I have to do 350 miles in a day, which happens about twice a year)
Cas :)
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Seeking opinions.
Have owned many motorcycles since adolescence starting with dirt bikes. Over the years, have owned dirt bikes up to XR650 and street bikes up to CB1000s. I am old(er) now (mid 60s) and less adventuresome. Want to get a bike for casual street and dirt road riding. Size wise, I am 71” tall x 150 lbs.
One of the of the bikes I am considering is a Zero DS. I have level 2 charging in my garage. The other bike I am considering is a Honda CB500X. Thoughts?
I would be interested in hearing from folks who have owned Zero bikes, especially a DS. Have you been happy with your Zeros compared to nonelectric bikes you owned.
Also from riders who might live in the Austin and San Antonio, TX area, any opinions on AF1 Racing and/or Mission City as dealers.
Thanks very much!
You could have a problem in the Texas heat with the Zero DS. If the battery gets too hot, it will not let you charge. Last year, I got stuck in Carson City, NV for hours because it was 104° F and after a 50-mile ride in the heat. But you should be okay if you only want it for local things. But that was what I thought when I bought my Zero DS, but now I take many road trips with it these days.
The DS will charge at a level one rate with 240 VAC unless you have off-market chargers for it. I use two Elcons, 2.5KW each and I charge my DS at around 6.4 KW on the road on J-plugs. At home, I use a Tesla Wall Connector and Tesla-Tap to charge it.
I would say the DS is a great reliable bike, but far from perfect in temp extremes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Merlin, I am an Energica fan myself, but one thing to consider, the E bikes are heavy, especially the ones with some balls behind them. Batteries are not light and a motor that power dense is not a tin can either. Into a back of a pickup w/o help might be a dangerous feat if you were to tip it halfway up a ramp. Id stick with a trailer or another type of hitching system.
Another option to keep an open mind on is, history. How many times is a bike being recalled over battery issues, this, that and other serious things like that. Yes Yes I know ANYone can have problems, but some seem to be having a lot more problems than others are.
Id take a serious look thru this forum, and other places online and see what a bike / a manufacturers general past history is like. If a bike is constantly in the shop or needing it's battery changed out because of a defect for the nth teenth time... do you want to deal with that really? For me at least, reliability is a BIG issue.
Aaron
Aaron, thank you for your thoughts across multiple considerations. Much appreciated.
For me too, reliability is a HUGE issue.
I think everyone with a home should have some type of trailer. It's a much safer way to move items. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees. A short, single axis trailer (e.g. motorcycle trailer, jet ski trailer, small cargo trailer) is hard to back up.
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Merlin, I am an Energica fan myself, but one thing to consider, the E bikes are heavy, especially the ones with some balls behind them. Batteries are not light and a motor that power dense is not a tin can either. Into a back of a pickup w/o help might be a dangerous feat if you were to tip it halfway up a ramp. Id stick with a trailer or another type of hitching system.
Another option to keep an open mind on is, history. How many times is a bike being recalled over battery issues, this, that and other serious things like that. Yes Yes I know ANYone can have problems, but some seem to be having a lot more problems than others are.
Id take a serious look thru this forum, and other places online and see what a bike / a manufacturers general past history is like. If a bike is constantly in the shop or needing it's battery changed out because of a defect for the nth teenth time... do you want to deal with that really? For me at least, reliability is a BIG issue.
Aaron
Aaron, thank you for your thoughts across multiple considerations. Much appreciated.
For me too, reliability is a HUGE issue.
I think everyone with a home should have some type of trailer. It's a much safer way to move items. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees. A short, single axis trailer (e.g. motorcycle trailer, jet ski trailer, small cargo trailer) is hard to back up.
I am a former Zero SR/F owner and now driving an Energica. That should speak for itself. Zero appeared to me as either incompetent or customer-unfriendly.
Having a good dealership is surely nice, but won't help you if the issue is with Zero as a company. For instance, if you get a faulty battery, your dealer is helpless if Zero is no supplying a new one (as in my case). For two months they were not able to deliver a new one so I gave back the bike to my dealer under 'lemon law'. In another biker forum I read about a Zero owner having to wait 7 months for a new battery.
Secondly, is a drive belt the right choice for rough conditions? From my (limited) experience with mountainbiking I would prefer a chain.
If you trailer your bike anyway, why not considering a KTM Freeride E-XC?
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I should probably chime in here with the opposite experience of Zero - they've gone out of their way to keep me on the road and fix stuff. My bike has had its front discs, dash, and both chargers, fixed under warranty*, and now the battery too although there's a 3 month wait for it but fortunately it still rides fine for me even with the battery issue ("Magic Charging"). They lent me an SR/F for the whole summer last year while mine was off the road being fiddled with, which I realise is a bit unusual but then here I am, defending them and saying they've done me well enough to properly consider buying another Zero when the time comes, so it's worked...
Cas :)
* After the warranty replacement discs also warped I realised the problem was the OEM discs were never going to work out and I fitted EMC discs instead at my expense, though they paid for the fitment under the terms of the guarantee.
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I got the Admit Jet Armor a few weeks ago. I'm very impressed with it. 5kWh battery (CATL cells) 20kW motor with reverse and a 4 speed tranny. 730 lb-ft of crazy torque. Absolutely insane in 1st gear, I think it might do 3 loops before hitting the ground, lol! They have a lighting kit for a $125 adder. Texas is likely an easy street legal process. 85 mph. My 1st ride I went 20 miles at an avg. speed of 22 and made a 3000' elevation climb and used 50% battery. I also got into some tight spots and REALLY appreciated the reverse, that is so sweet! The build quality is shockingly high quality.
For the money of $4,700 to my door, I'm not aware of what can beat it.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2023-AdmitJet-Armor-20000W-72V-Max_1600060784412.html
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Thank you, Don. My use would be local and I normally don't ride when it's really hot.
Do you have the Charge Tank? Probably don't want the Change Tank in any case because I won't be using the DS for road trips. The Charge Tank doesn't seem to be available at the moment in any case.
I will definitely get at least one Quick Charger. All the 120V circuits in my house are 20A and I have multiple 120V circuits for the garage.
Also have a 240V 60A (breaker size) circuit with a 15-40 receptacle in my garage. Also have a Level 2 charger with a J1772 tap that plugs into that receptacle. Researching potential ways to charge the DS with this charger without having to buy the Charge Tank.
Thanks again.
[/quote]You could have a problem in the Texas heat with the Zero DS. If the battery gets too hot, it will not let you charge. Last year, I got stuck in Carson City, NV for hours because it was 104° F and after a 50-mile ride in the heat. But you should be okay if you only want it for local things. But that was what I thought when I bought my Zero DS, but now I take many road trips with it these days.
The DS will charge at a level one rate with 240 VAC unless you have off-market chargers for it. I use two Elcons, 2.5KW each and I charge my DS at around 6.4 KW on the road on J-plugs. At home, I use a Tesla Wall Connector and Tesla-Tap to charge it.
I would say the DS is a great reliable bike, but far from perfect in temp extremes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thank you, Don. My use would be local and I normally don't ride when it's really hot.
Do you have the Charge Tank? Probably don't want the Change Tank in any case because I won't be using the DS for road trips. The Charge Tank doesn't seem to be available at the moment in any case.
I will definitely get at least one Quick Charger. All the 120V circuits in my house are 20A and I have multiple 120V circuits for the garage.
Also have a 240V 60A (breaker size) circuit with a 15-40 receptacle in my garage. Also have a Level 2 charger with a J1772 tap that plugs into that receptacle. Researching potential ways to charge the DS with this charger without having to buy the Charge Tank.
Thanks again.
No, I do not have the Charge Tank. I use two 2.5KW external chargers, made by Elcon wired into the motor controller battery terminals. With the OBC, I can charge my 2017 Zero DS at 6.4 KW.
It's probably best to charge at 240 VAC, the OBC is more efficient with 240 VAC (less heat inside the charger could make it last longer) but it will not charge any faster than when on 120 VAC if you use the stuff Zero recommends. You can but a decent adapter for your J-1772. See here. (https://tucsonev.com/) The J-1772 adapter made there is much better than the one available from Zero.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thank you for all the thoughts and opinions. Very helpful and much appreciated.
Quick question on charging: I have a Level 2 EV charger in my garage with a J1772 connector. This charger is plugged into a 240VAC 50A circuit via a 14-50R plug. The charger is rated up to 40 amps.
Would the following work for charging the DS: The J1772 connector from the EV charger would plug into a Tuscon EV PEV adapter. The 3 x 5-15R plugs would then connect to the following:
Zero OBC
Zero Quick Charge 1
Zero Quick Charger 2
Would the above also work with just the OBC and one Zero Quick Charger?
Thanks again.
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It should work.
One quirky thing that might be an issue but Id have to see it to say yes or no.
The 3 x 15 amps coming off the 50 amp. the 50 amp is 240 volt, the 15's Im assuming is 115 volt, coming off either side of the 240 to Neutral.
With that, when hooking them all together to basically parallel charge the battery, if they are not on isolated circuiits, and one of them is coming off the other side of the 240 v as the other ones, the ripple phase (i think that's what you call it) could cause issues with circulating current / charging amps etc. thru the chargers.
yes an oddball problem, probably unlikely to happen but just something to keep in mind.
Aaron
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Perhaps I'm being dense, but seeing as the "charger" isn't hardwired why use it at all? Just build a 14-50R to 3x whatever the American mains plug is called and swap to that whenever you want to charge the bike. Or you could streamline it even further and go 14-50R to 3x IEC C14 to go straight into the bike and quick chargers.
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Thank you for all the thoughts and opinions. Very helpful and much appreciated.
Quick question on charging: I have a Level 2 EV charger in my garage with a J1772 connector. This charger is plugged into a 240VAC 50A circuit via a 14-50R plug. The charger is rated up to 40 amps.
Would the following work for charging the DS: The J1772 connector from the EV charger would plug into a Tuscon EV PEV adapter. The 3 x 5-15R plugs would then connect to the following:
- Zero OBC
Zero Quick Charge 1
Zero Quick Charger 2
Would the above also work with just the OBC and one Zero Quick Charger?
Thanks again.
Yes, it will all work fine from 240 VAC. With the Zero stuff, the current draw goes down as the voltage is increased, so you draw less current with the 240 VAC but the charge rate stays as if you were using 120 VAC. With the above, you will charge at around 3 KW.
BTW, I do something like that here, quite often, to charge my 2017 Zeros at home. The only difference here is I use a Tesla Wall Connector and a Tesla-Tap to convert to the J-1772 standard. You will not have to bother with the Tesla-Tap as you're starting with a real J-1772.
On the road, I use the Elcons that will give me twice the power at 240 VAC. i always leave the DeltaQ's (Zero external chargers) at home.
At home, I can use both at the same time and charge my Zero SR (with the pwr tank) at as much as 12 KW. But I normally only charge it at 3 KW when at home. On the road, it is too much stuff to carry, So I charge my SR at just under 8 KW during trips. And sometimes I have to disconnect the OBC because I can overload the charge station because my stuff ignores the pilot signal that would normally reduce the power. So I have to adjust manually. Many J-1772 stations can only handle around 7.2 KW (30 amps @ 240 VAC). But their capacity varies from 3KW to 16,800 watts (12.5 amps to 70 amps) at different locations.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Perhaps I'm being dense, but seeing as the "charger" isn't hardwired why use it at all? Just build a 14-50R to 3x whatever the American mains plug is called and swap to that whenever you want to charge the bike. Or you could streamline it even further and go 14-50R to 3x IEC C14 to go straight into the bike and quick chargers.
Thanks for that idea! I agree that a cable would need to be built.
I have one of these though the voltage for the four 5-15R receptacles is 120 and not 240. https://www.amazon.com/MECMO-Distribution-Adapter-Household-Generator/dp/B0BQVR5CML?ref_=ast_sto_dp
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Thanks for that idea! I agree that a cable would need to be built.
I carry both, but the J-1772 adapter is still needed for road trips. Yeah, for 240 VAC you will have to make it yourself. I made several, but they get very little use.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Perhaps I'm being dense, but seeing as the "charger" isn't hardwired why use it at all? Just build a 14-50R to 3x whatever the American mains plug is called and swap to that whenever you want to charge the bike. Or you could streamline it even further and go 14-50R to 3x IEC C14 to go straight into the bike and quick chargers.
Thanks for that idea! I agree that a cable would need to be built.
I have one of these though the voltage for the four 5-15R receptacles is 120 and not 240. https://www.amazon.com/MECMO-Distribution-Adapter-Household-Generator/dp/B0BQVR5CML?ref_=ast_sto_dp
Merlin, what I did is, the basic charger, the J-1772 has a 14-50? is it, the 4 prong 50 amp basically dryer plug. From there, if you are handy with a screwdriver and essentially wire strippers, get yourself some 10 Ga wire and make pig tails to change the plugs. Just a female of the main charger on one end, and then on the other end, all the different male sizes. The overall pigtails you make is maybe a foot long if that, very small. I have 4 of them which I keep with my charger on the bike. That way, no matter where I am at, if they got a plug, any plug, I just pigtail to match THEIR outlet, and plug my charger into it. if you are at a friends house, restaurant, wherever, hey, can I borrow your dryer outlet for a few? can I borrow your AC outlet?, Let me borrow your tig / welder outlet?, water heater outlet? ANYwhere there is a plug, you just grab that one foot long (but twistable into a loop cause it IS wire, and easier to store), adapter, match your charger's plug and away you go!
I used 10 ga because while 12 ga can handle it, the 10 gives a bit more leeway, especially if people may walk on it, it's setting in the hot sun etc, and it's not THAT much more thicker. I ended up actually making about a 40 ft extension cord. My one friend lives in an apartment and I run it around the corner, into the window and into the laundry room to grab an outlet to charge :D If you goto someone's house, yes you can probably find 115 volt (usa) right at the front door or right in the driveway, but if you want a decent charge rate at 240, the ext cord helps get to where THAT plug is at.
It all fits nicely into one bag, and leaves room in the bag still for other stuff. If you are going on trips, yes one should plan their stops to accommodate fuel needs but it's also fun to be able to grab a juice up 'anywhere along the way' too! If you are wanting to do multi chargers, whatever your situation is, you can easily adapt and make it very portable as needed.
Aaron
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Perhaps I'm being dense, but seeing as the "charger" isn't hardwired why use it at all? Just build a 14-50R to 3x whatever the American mains plug is called and swap to that whenever you want to charge the bike. Or you could streamline it even further and go 14-50R to 3x IEC C14 to go straight into the bike and quick chargers.
Thanks for that idea! I agree that a cable would need to be built.
I have one of these though the voltage for the four 5-15R receptacles is 120 and not 240. https://www.amazon.com/MECMO-Distribution-Adapter-Household-Generator/dp/B0BQVR5CML?ref_=ast_sto_dp (https://www.amazon.com/MECMO-Distribution-Adapter-Household-Generator/dp/B0BQVR5CML?ref_=ast_sto_dp)
You should be able to modify that above thingy for 240 VAC. A separate 120 VAC hot wire goes to each 120 VAC outlet. Remove the neutral line wire (usually white) on the opposite side--it is not needed at all. Put one of the hot wires there (usually black) there and you will have 240 VAC on each outlet. Leave the ground prong (usually green) as is. Also keep the connection between what was the neutrals on the outlets.
Not really designed for such, but if you can get into that outlet to make such a change it will work and then you will have two 240VAC outlets that will accept 120 VAC plugs. Just make sure you NEVER plug in a 120 VAC only item into it.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My wife is a bit shorter than you (5'6" and a few pounds lighter, but I'm a gentleman so I'm not going to say exactly how much), she has a 2020 DSR with the Charge Tank.
she has about 22,000 miles on it so far. 90 percent of the time she uses it for commuting. While we have a couple of level 2 chargers on the property she never needs them. We have a regular 120V household outlet with an "Alexa" compatible switch. This is what she uses to charge unless we go on a road trip or something. She usually charges every other day. The smart switch makes it easy to start charging after the rates go to Off-Peak around midnight. "Alexa, turn on The Zero at 2AM". Then when we leave for work around 0700 she has ~90%.
She has never come home needing to recharge in less than overnight. There have been times when she forgot to tell Alexa to charge it and needed put it on the level 2 while she gets ready and eats breakfast.
If we go on longer rides, a 200-250 mile day is her limit. At the pace we ride together she can get 90-100 miles from a full charge. We usually plan a lunch stop of an hour or so, around the 80 mile mark. Then a top off stop to stretch our legs, if needed, that is just enough to get to the hotel/back home. (very rarely is that a full charge to 100%). For multi day trips I got a 25 feet long 14AWG cord from a computer supply shop that makes it pretty easy to find an outlet to plug into at the hotel so we get up in the morning with a full charge for the next leg. Here in Northern California, level 2 J-plugs arent too hard to find. At 3.3 to 6.6 kilowatts they are never busy. Since we're eating lunch anyway a 90 minute stop isn't a deal breaker.
She has no trouble on maintained fire roads and the like. The 19 inch front tire makes the off-pavement handling pretty easy. If you're looking to ride without needing a support vehicle, like if you want to ride to the dirtroad/campsite and then ride the dirt roads, and you're not riding like Travis Pastrana or in much of a hurry....... I think a DS or DSR would be fine. I highly recommend the Charge Tank if you ever want to do more than 100 miles at a stretch. You could probably even save some money by picking up a used bike without it and installing a charge tank yourself or getting it installed by the dealer.
Her ownership experience has also been drama free, but that may be because we have never had to take it to the dealership. It's needed one new set of tires and a brake fluid change... and thats it. I did the brake fluid myself and the tires were just a matter of taking the wheels off and dropping them off at Cycle Gear. The only issue she's had is the plastic front fender has sun-faded way faster than the other plastic parts on the bike. It hasn't bothered her enough to replace it.