ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: programmerOnWheels on April 19, 2023, 08:38:28 PM
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Hi Everyone!
I have a 2010 S and I already invested a lot of work and I would love to have it running again.
Problem:
- No power, wheel not spinning even to turn the throttle
My mechanic already replaced:
- Battery (2 years ago) with Nissan Leaf Battery elements
- old Throttle with new Throttle Magura linear potentiometer (1.5 years ago)
- Kickstand (1.5 years ago)
- Controller (was recently replaced) with another Alltrax Controller
After the contorller replacement, the tires were also replaced and I drove the last 3 days. Unfortunately today after lunch, I got no speed when I turn the throttle..
I did:
- reset battery by sliding down to OFF for 15 sec but also for 30sec, multiple times
- kickstand up and down multiple times
- kill switch near the throttle multiple times on and off
- key turn on and off mutliple times
- put a magnet at the kickstand sensor just to be sure.
Fuse center location was also checked, all good.
Firstly, the warning Indicator LED was blinking red, even to kickstand was up. So I started with the solutions I know and after the Battery Sliding down for 15 seconds and back onto ON, no red blinking anymore when the kickstand was up and I should have been able to drive, but no.
Unfortunately, since the battery replacement with Nissan Leaf modules, there are no BMS sounds anymore, not even the OK Beep at the beginning.
Even though I have no sounds, it's normal temperature with 12°C and it was not raining. My battery is charged at 80%. So there should be no environmental issue.
So my next step would be to read the logs by building a cable to access the MBB: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/How_to_build_a_cable_to_access_the_MBB
I already read many similar stories like:
- driving for a couple of meters, then losing power
- driving in rain, loosing power or
- driving full speed or hill up, then losing power
and therefore I told my mechanic to please replaced the controller. But now my mechanic due to the age of my motorcyle is done with it and I'm also slowly giving up. The sad thing is, i know it can drive and it works. But the Throttle-Disable is activated, even to it should not be activated.
Has anybody of you already built that cable? I can solder and I hope the parts I ordered (local IT shop + amazon for OBD 2) will be labeled correctly.
Has anybody any idea what could still be an issue? The only thing that was not replaced is the motor.
I got the "Alltrax Flowchart" from Zero motorcycles and according to that everything works:
- Key switch on
- Battery switch totally on TOP, I cannot put it more up
- Kill switch is on
- Kickstand is up
I cannot imagine that the throttle needs to be replaced a second time, the next I can do and check according to Alltrax FlowChart is "Disconnect Throttle from main harness. Check resistance closed and open. Closed = 0 ohms Open = 5k ohm"
Any idea? any similar experiences?
Thank you very much for your time and reading my post!
Best wishes
programmerOnWheels
The controller was just replaced and I was able the last days to drive.
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A few years ago, I bought the OBD2-to-USB cable. Didn't have to solder anything.
I did have to download the Putty program to my laptop.
I'm curious why you don't have BMS beeping any more. I replaced my battery with Nissan Leaf batteries last week and it beeps as always.
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Hi Alan
Thank you for your reply.
Oh I didn't think of that, thank you very much!
My mechanic did it and told me afterwards no beep anymore. Maybe he did something wrong? I don't even have the OK-Beep anymore. He told me the MBB cannot communicate with the battery anymore, because now it's not the original battery anymore.
Did you replace it yourself?
But now I'm giving up slowly... Sometimes it works for a week and then suddenly it stops. And because there are no beeps, no Idea. But also my mechanic in switzerland (the only one) doesn't want to work on it anymore so I need to give up :(
Best wishes
programmerOnWheels
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Did you install a pre charge resistor before the Alltrax?
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Hi Amicb
How does that look like? Do you have a picture?
Then I can check!
Best wishes
programmerOnWheels
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Programmer,
Can you see the Altrax controller at the bottom of your motorcycle? It should have a green LED light when everything is turned on and ready to drive.
If the light is green, then that means everything is OK going into the controller and the problem is either the controller itself or something from the controller, such as the electric motor or the motor's speed sensor.
If the light is not green, then that means the problem is happening before the controller, such as the batteries or the throttle.
That will at least narrow down where the problem is. Hopefully, it will be something simple, like the controller or the throttle and not something complicated, like the batteries.
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Hi Alan
I had a look. Today the motorcycle has a good day an can drive.
But I saw no green light near the Alltrax Controller. The Alltrax Controller has the blue color and was just replaced. But I see no green light. Maybe that green light is covered by the lowest metal plat which also holds the alltrax controller?
I looked from right and left and had a direct view onto the connections and cables connected to Alltrax but I could see no green lights.
According to the website from the producer the LED should be located near the connecting cables.
https://alltraxinc.com/npx-products/
But because I was able to drive I guess it should be green. More interesting would be when my motorcycle has a bad day, I cannot drive and then see what color it is.
I will give you an update in 1-2 weeks, depending how long it takes to occur again.
Thank you very much for your time and help, I never checked the Alltrax LED!
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
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Hi Alan
So today I tested my motorcycle just to see if it had problems again as it sometimes happens after power on,
So I enter the key turn it, power on. Sit onto the motorcycle and pull the throttle. It drives forward, so I brake. Because it drove, I expect the LED to be green.
I find the LED on the controller. No Light. Not green not red. See attached picture.
Believe me, I have no BMS sounds and no Alltrax Controller LED. I can even film it and send a link to the recording.
Furthermore, I also checked the front for the OBD2 connector. I have a Zero Motorcycles 2010 S and there is no OBD2 Connector near the Fuse Center Location. Like in this here Zero 2012 in the unofficial manual:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/File:2012S-obdii-port-and-fuse-block.jpg
Maybe, if the OBD is inside the bike, I could add a bluetooth dongle/connector?
https://crashcash.github.io/obd-II_dongle/index.html
At least then I could open my laptop (which I always have with me) and at least know the reason when my bike doesn't start.
According to the manual on page 2-5 t should be right on the power back. It looks like that.
Manual: http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/owners-manuals/2010/2010-Zero-Owners-Manual-S-DS.pdf
Maybe also an important note:
- Since the new battery, the Charge LED Indicator does not work properly. It shows when it charges, but never shows the full charged Position (Ammeter?) even tho on the display the battery is displayed as fully charged after charging it the whole night
So in Short:
- No BMS sounds
- No Alltrax contorller LED lighting up
- On some days motorcycle works but on some days not
Do these problems have something in common?
Could that have a connection to the BMS? Maybe that needs to be replaced?
Or would a firmware update maybe help?
Does anybody now a good zero motorcycles mech in Austria or Germany that could help me?
Maybe that's some helpful information and you have an idea what I could do. thank you ver ymuch for your help and time!
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
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Here the 2 pictures from the LED while motorcycle is turned on:
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Second picture:
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I called my mech again, he explained to be he completely removed the MBB because that could not communicate with the battery he built and he recommended me to sell the parts. He also told me another of his customers has the same problem like me, that the motorcycle works on some days but sometimes not.
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I'm stumped. Cannot figure out how your mechanic managed to remove the main board, remove the battery management computer, bypass the motor controller, and get anything to work.
What's he doing with all of those parts that he removed? Is he selling them on the side on ebay?
Perhaps he replaced all of the electronic parts with a hamster that runs in a wheel. On the days when your motorcycle doesn't work, it's because the hamster is sleeping.
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Hi Alan
No idea. I can build computers and program but I really do not understand enough about motorcycles, that's why I hired him.
He just said on the phone he needed to remove the MBB because the MBB could not proper communicate with the new battery he built with Nissan Leaf and it worked for 6 months. But after 6 months my motorcycle started to have a different mood everyday.
But at least if I can sell the battery and the motor I will get some money back. But I cannot sell it like that and I already invested a lot of money into the new battery. Lesson learnt.
Having a simple explanation like a hamster would be nice. I'm still thinking about some loose cables or a firmware update that could help. In a couple of days the OBD cable should arrive and then I can add a Bluetooth dongle/connector so I might be able to find out what kind of error is thrown when it doesnt start.
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
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Did you install a pre charge resistor before the Alltrax?
Have a look at this: https://alltraxinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Doc100-003-B_OP-AXE-Operators-Manual.pdf
Alltrax on 2010 and 2011 used to fry if no pre charge resistor was installed.
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Hi Amicb
thank you for your reply!
I don't think the controller is fried, it stll works most of the time, but not always. If it would be fried, I think would not drive anymore.
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
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Hi Amicb
thank you for your reply!
I don't think the controller is fried, it stll works most of the time, but not always. If it would be fried, I think would not drive anymore.
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
That was exactly the same behaviour when mine was about to get completely fried in my DS 2010, don´t know if it´s your case. If one day yours refuses completely to run check it, and if the controller needs replacement don´t forget to install a precharge.
Cheers!
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Deas anybody know where the OBD2 in the 2010 Model is? Because in this page it's only documented until back to 2011.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/OBD-II_Port_Location
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@amicb
That's why I had the controller replaced like 2 months ago. Because I read many similar posts in the forum and all as a solution had replaced the controller. But after the controller was replaced I hoped it would stop occuring. But unfortunately even tho the controller was replaced, same issues still happening.
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All good, me and some friends dismanted my 2010 and there is no OBD2 connector. Therefore there is no option to detect the problem when my motorcycle does not drive anymore because there are no beep eeror sounds anymore because BMS was removed.
But if anymone would like to buy it in europe or at least parts of it like the battery (Niffan Leaf modules, a range of 80km up to 180km, depending on the speed, max speed 113km/h) please hit me up!
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Yesterday, my 2011 S did the same thing as yours: solid green light on the controller, no errors flashing on the dashboard, no beeps from the BMS, but the motorcycle would not move. I've owned it since 2017 and it has never done that before.
I measured the voltage coming from the Alltrax motor controller to the motor, and it was 0 volts. The other thick wires at the Alltrax were 56.3 volts, so the problem was definitely in the controller.
Luckily, I had a Kelly controller sitting around. This morning, I replaced the Alltrax controller with the Kelly controller. The motorcycle started up great and I just finished driving it around for 3 miles with no problems at all.
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The sad thing is, i know it can drive and it works. But the Throttle-Disable is activated, even to it should not be activated.
Do you get the 8 blink red light when the bike isn't working? Does it start and then stop during the ride or does it not start at all?
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Hi guys
Sorry for the late reply. I disconnected the cables at the back going to the battery, reattached them because a loose contact could be the cause according to some zero mechanics from the headquarter I had a call with. it worked for 2 weeks but then one morning my bike didn't move again. so I accepted that i cannot fix it.
@Alan: i had the controller replaced already and I don't think my machanic would replace a broken controller with another broken one. And I know if I even ask him that he would get angry. But I can measure the contage from the controller going to the motor. Thank you for that hint! How did you measure that? did you measure the B-, the B+ or the M-? See here: https://alltraxinc.com/npx-products/
@udracing: It kepps blinking red like as if the kickstand was down. So not specifically 8 red lights. Sometimes it doesnt start, and sonmetimes it stops when driving.
Best wishes
ProgrammerOnWheels
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Why don't you scrap that Zero battery box, controller and charger and go all aftermarket?