ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: jotjotde on March 23, 2023, 06:45:11 PM
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Hi Folks!
Looking for something to replace the nice but quite common looking indicators for my Ribelle I realised that those for some BMW, Triumph and Aprilia look the same or quite the same.
More important, the 'foot' of the indicators where they are fixed are identical.
In the picture below you see a common Triumph indicator. Of course, you still have to change the connectors, but they are available at Molex.
In case you want to put some without this particular 'foot' on your bike, you need indicators with M8 thread or you could use the adaptor shown below.
Just wanted to tell you, in case you want or need a replacement. Now you can look for more makers and see where you can get the best price.
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Small problem while installing the new stuff.
I am accustomed to black and red cables, black for mass connection and red for current.
The original indicators have brown an blue cables. ::)
Before I break out my multimeter, does anyone know what blue and brown stand for? I assume the brown is mass and blue is current, right?
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Just as a side note on the blinkers. Check the power consumption
Stocks ones:
Euro turn signals: LED 13.5V - 1.89W
US turn signals: incandescent 12V - 10W
I tried to put the sequential rizoma vision (12 V - 3,4 W) and the 3.4W seems to cause an issue.
If i only put the front ones it works (despite an error on the dash) but if i install the 4 ones nothing works at all. Seems that the bike cannot deliver enough electricity (no comment) to make sequential blinkers works. And adding resistors doesn't help as you are looking to augment the W not diminish it :P
And btw the blue wire also referred to as the neutral wire, has the function of transferring electricity away from the appliance. The brown wire, otherwise known as the live wire, transfers electricity to the appliance. The combination of these wires is referred to as a circuit. so brown is +
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I did this when I just got the bike,
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5LBdtqC/Indicator.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/50F1gmMc/Screenshot-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1fQyJ8s/Screenshot-6.jpg)
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Thanks for your input!
In the meantime I encountered the same problems as Valen described :-[
I relied on Energica's specs for the LED i.e. a bit less than 2 Watt per indicator and purchased sequential LEDs originally for a Triumph, but they are made by Koso, so it's not cheap crap I try to put on the bike. Koso usually has no LEDs beyond the 2 Watt, so I did not expect any issues.
But now, installing the right front one first, they flash once then the error #B1007 comes up (right indicator circuit fault).
Tried several things, e.g. switching a 70 Ohm resistor in parallel, but then the indicator not even flashes once (though the fault is not coming up).
Another try was to connect both indicators, the original as well as the new one in parallel, but with the same result, both flash once, then error code.
I measured the original Energica LED, but according to the multimeter the resistance is > 2 MegaOhm (!)
According to the Energica specs, at 13.5 V and 1,89 W I calculate the restistance to approx. 100 Ohm. Unfortunately I am not Electrician enough to understand this.
The new LED has 100 KiloOhm, which is surprising as well.
Googling this does not really help me any further, everything I found there is about the conversion from incandescent to LED.
Do I miss something elementary here?
@Valen, did you find a fix for this?
@MoneyFor: Were you just lucky or what did you do to make them work?
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A B1007 fault "Turn signal short circuit fault" happens when the turn signal circuit tries to draw more power than what is set as the max value in the software. The bike turns off the circuit to protect its self till the bikes power is cycled.
To understand if you can use the replacement turn signal on your bike you need to know how much current they requires at 12V and how much the stock unit draws. If the aftermarket signals draw more current they will not work on the bike. If they draw less they will work, however if the draw is too low you may see a B1006 "turn signal open circuit fault". The signals will still flash (possibly at a faster rate). This can be fixed by wiring the correct size resistor into the circuit to dissipate enough current to match the draw of the stock signal.
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Thx @Demoni for sharing your knowhow!
In hindsight I should have checked this much more carefully, now I have an expensive set of indicators which do not work because they are too powerful :'(
Only thing I could do is to bypass the bike‘s control and install a dedicated load independent indicator relay. That’s something I will not do.
Until now I had absolutely no clue that there are LED indicators on the market which need such a high power. There is a beautiful sequential one from a German manufacturer, the Kellermann Jetstream which draws a whopping 21 W! Compare this to the 1.89 W of the Energica LED…
Additionally to the Triumph I tested two more LED indicators, one the m.blaze ice from Motogadget which is rated 3 W and runs totally OK.
The other was the single-LED Rizoma Corsa rated 1.4 W which did NOT run and produced an error, maybe the rating is too low!
BTW, I tried even a 4 W incandescent bulb, which threw the error code.
Apparently the bike tolerates somewhere in region 1.8 to 3 W for an indicator.
Summarizing, if you plan to get non-original indicators, check carefully and don’t repeat my mistake!
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Thx @Demoni for sharing your knowhow!
In hindsight I should have checked this much more carefully, now I have an expensive set of indicators which do not work because they are too powerful :'(
Only thing I could do is to bypass the bike‘s control and install a dedicated load independent indicator relay. That’s something I will not do.
Until now I had absolutely no clue that there are LED indicators on the market which need such a high power. There is a beautiful sequential one from a German manufacturer, the Kellermann Jetstream which draws a whopping 21 W! Compare this to the 1.89 W of the Energica LED…
Additionally to the Triumph I tested two more LED indicators, one the m.blaze ice from Motogadget which is rated 3 W and runs totally OK.
The other was the single-LED Rizoma Corsa rated 1.4 W which did NOT run and produced an error, maybe the rating is too low!
BTW, I tried even a 4 W incandescent bulb, which threw the error code.
Apparently the bike tolerates somewhere in region 1.8 to 3 W for an indicator.
Summarizing, if you plan to get non-original indicators, check carefully and don’t repeat my mistake!
I had my left rear indicator fail on my new Experia....Was going to take quite a while to get a genuine replacement, so rather than ride around with no left indicator, I fitted a cheap fleabay pair on the rear.....worked perfectly....and still on the bike today, new genuine ones are on the way.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/362745095872
Smithy.
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@Smithy: You can regard yourself lucky because that could have failed when the substitute indicators fall out of the wattage range the bike's controller allows.
My experience is that while most of the quality suppliers are labling their goods, the cheap China stuff lets you only guess.
An additional problem in Europe is that the indicators must have an E-certification otherwise you are fined if police checks or you will fail the bi-annual technical test (Germany).
As a guideline for others having the same issues (when your bike is already fitted with LED):
If you need low-budget indicators e.g. for temporary replacement, look for multiple LED inside (as the ones Smithy bought), so the wattage will be at least 1.8 W or more. Or be prepared to install resistors as described in the post of @Demoni.
For higher quality LED the power is often higher (as the brightness). It appears to me that above five or six LED inside their power is above 3 W and they unfortunately will not work on the bike.
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Sorry for the answer delay.
Didn't found any fix yet, asked some friends, my dealer (who make some customs non electric bike) and no one figured a solution.
So for now i ve the Rizoma vision in the front, which look and works great (even if i get the error message) but still got the stock blinkers on the back.
That was a bit lazy to leave as it is but i'm planning to redesign the licence plate holder to go from a diving board to something nice (which i ve haven't found yet) and will prolly change all the blinkers at that time. I 'm just waiting for the rain season to stop (at least having a diving board on the rear helps with weather ;D)
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I brought this rather old post up because I think I found a solution for the problem (Energica's with LED indicators have very restricted range for installation of OEM ones).
A German company (Kellermann) offers a special indicator relay which supplies additional power to the indicator if needed.
Link: https://www.kellermann-online.com/en/detail/e281c9762fb441c4a2c23b94fbe56f28
The gadget (named i.SED) is just switched in between original connectors and the new indicator plus an additional wire to 12 Volt ignition-switched Plus.
I want to give that a try, but I as a non-electrician I desperatedly need some help where I get the additional wire connected to at best.
Supply of the USB socket maybe? At the bike's tail I could plug into the backlight but I am afraid this could throw errors if the bike measures the backlight's current and could detect the additional draw of the indicators.
Maybe there is a dedicated place where I can connect?
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Looks to be the exact thing you would need to allow installation of higher current draw LED signals on your bike.
The 12V circuit that powers the USB port would be the best place to tap into. The USB port is protected by fuse #6 in the fuse box located under the right tank fairing. It is a switched circuit that is active when the bike is on and when the bike is charging. The bike will still be monitoring the current draw of the turn signal wires. As the relay is pulling power from a external 12V source you will probably need to add resistors between the factory turn signal wires to prevent faults.
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@Demoni: Thanks for the info! I will try this and report, but that might take some time because it will be a project for rainy days.
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@demoni
@jotjotde
Thanks guys you are giving hope that one day i ll be able to put my 4 rizoma vision ;)
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@Valen: I have a complete set of nice indicators here waiting to be installed as well. So I promise, I will die trying :P
Just as @Demoni suggested I looked at the fuse box yesterday and attached some pics. The fuse box is underneath the right top fairing which is helt by 5 screws only.
There are 7 fuses, according to my manual (RIbelle RS '22) they are for the following functions.
1. Vehicle control unit 30 A
2. Power train controller 10 A
3. ABS valves 15 A
4. ABS pump 25 A
5. Charge manager, connectivity hub, OBD 10 A
6. USB and heated grips 10 A
7. E-Keyless 10 A
The No.7 totally surprised me, because I do not have a keyless system! Does anyone know why? Is this circuit active even without keyless?
My plan is to tap into the No.6 circuit just at the fuse box (red cable) with this wire tap https://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html.
Does that sound right? I am open for other suggestions!
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@Valen: I have a complete set of nice indicators here waiting to be installed as well. So I promise, I will die trying :P
Just as @Demoni suggested I looked at the fuse box yesterday and attached some pics. The fuse box is underneath the right top fairing which is helt by 5 screws only.
There are 7 fuses, according to my manual (RIbelle RS '22) they are for the following functions.
1. Vehicle control unit 30 A
2. Power train controller 10 A
3. ABS valves 15 A
4. ABS pump 25 A
5. Charge manager, connectivity hub, OBD 10 A
6. USB and heated grips 10 A
7. E-Keyless 10 A
The No.7 totally surprised me, because I do not have a keyless system! Does anyone know why? Is this circuit active even without keyless?
My plan is to tap into the No.6 circuit just at the fuse box with this wire tap https://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html.
Does that sound right? I am open for other suggestions!
Cost cutting they just don t bother developping another fuse box :P
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@Valen: You are probably right. I will have to see if the wires of fuse #7 are live.
@All: I remembered Don and others already discussed about 12 V supply. As an info for anyone looking for a suitable 12V supply point, refer to this post. Some reading to do, but I think it's awesome info.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=619261556c253cd529f873807bbcf6b0&topic=8846.30
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The No.7 totally surprised me, because I do not have a keyless system! Does anyone know why? Is this circuit active even without keyless?
Fuse #7 on the EVA provides power to key and keyless ignition units.
My plan is to tap into the No.6 circuit just at the fuse box (red cable) with this wire tap https://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html.
Does that sound right? I am open for other suggestions!
Fuse #6 is my go to suggestion for providing power to external 12V devices. You can tap the wire exiting the fuse box just make sure you tap the side that is protected by the fuse. Alternatively creating a Y splitter that pugs into the 2 pin connector at the USB port will also work.
The Experia wiring is different and has accommodations for external 12V built in. Page 102 of the owners manual covers this information. Fuses 7,8 & 9 provide power to the 2x amp seal connectors located just below the fuse box. In addition there is a JST JWPF connector located behind the dash surround intended for providing power to a GPS unit.
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@Demoni Excellent detail information. Much appreciated!
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SUCCESS! (at least partial)
With the Kellermann iSED I managed to get the motogadget mo.blaze ice indicators running. They have approx. 3 W each, compared to 1,9 W of the original ones.
https://motogadget.com/products/mo-blaze-ice
The Kellermann thingies only needed to be installed at the rear.
https://www.kellermann-online.com/en/detail/e281c9762fb441c4a2c23b94fbe56f28
Beware, they make a clicking noise when they work.
These indicators have the big advantage of being visible from the side (other than the original ones). So I regard this as a safety upgrade besides being more stylish.
As a side note for anyone who is interested, I have to report that I could not get running the more powerful indicators I have. I am not an electrician and how these Kellermanns operate is totally beyond me. But when I attached the high wattage indicators with the Kellermanns, they blinked frantically and the error code was visible. I regard this as a sign that the bike's system detected a current being too low and thus assumed one faulty device. I tried to mitigate this with a 25 W resistor, but then only one indicator (the one without the resistor) was flashing.
So maybe a 10 W resistor might be working...
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Short video
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You are my hero ;)
You plugged the thingie on the USB/heatgrip?
You don't have any error code of the dash when the indicators are flashing?
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Thx for the praise ;D
Yes, plugged into the fuse box at fuse #6 (USB+heatgrips) as suggested by Demoni.
Used something like this - don't know how this is called in English: https://www.altecautomotive.co.uk/add-a-circuit-standard-fuse-blade-size-add-a-circuit-fuse-holders--altfh450-1-01-4728-p.asp
Note: You need the 'mini' version.
No error messages so far.
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just be careful when using fuse splitters like that, that you do not overall overload the circuit. If the original fuse was rated at 30 Amp, Id not run more than say 35 amp MAX on the entire thing really. Just because you put a new fuse in there does not mean the wiring going TO the thing can handle a lot of extra load you added with the additional circuit. Even running the original AT the rated power of the fuse, for hours at a time, in the long run, will still burn it up over time.
Aaron
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As a side note for anyone who is interested, I have to report that I could not get running the more powerful indicators I have. I am not an electrician and how these Kellermanns operate is totally beyond me. But when I attached the high wattage indicators with the Kellermanns, they blinked frantically and the error code was visible. I regard this as a sign that the bike's system detected a current being too low and thus assumed one faulty device. I tried to mitigate this with a 25 W resistor, but then only one indicator (the one without the resistor) was flashing.
So maybe a 10 W resistor might be working...
Glad to hear the Kellermanns allowed you to install the moto gadget signals. They use the voltage signal that would normally power the bikes turn signals to activate a relay (mechanical or digital) to provide the new turn signals with power from a external source (heated grip circuit). This takes the load off the turn signal circuit preventing the bike from turning the circuit off due to it drawing too much current.
As the turn signal circuit is no longer powering the OEM signals the bike is measuring a current draw on that circuit that is too low. This causes a open circuit fault to be displayed on the dash and also results in the turn signals flashing at a higher rate. To solve this you need to match the load using resistors of the bikes turn signal circuit to that drawn by the OEM turn signals. The 25W resistor you installed is creating a over current situation for the turn signal circuit, you need to replace that with a correctly matched resistor. Ideally you would also compensate for the current draw of the Kellermanns, but I suspect this number is so small it will not make a difference.
If each OEM turn signal draws 1.9W then each side of the bike draws 3.8W. If you have one of the 3W turn signals being powered by the circuit you will need to use a resistor to dissipate the other .8W. You would need to use a 180 Ohm resistor to match the load*.
*That number is based on the information you shared. Make sure you verify the current draw of the OEM and aftermarket signals (@ 12V).
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@Aaron:
Thx! Now I know it's called a fuse splitter :D
The split adds its own fuse, so the old and the new circuit should be safe.
@Demoni
Thx for the prime info (as always) about the resistors.
Before I try and error and end up with a bunch of different resistors, I thought I will get me a potentiometer in the right Ohm range and try to find out what's really needed.
A project for the dark winter afternoons 8)
I promise I will report the results.
At the time being I am happy with the Motogadgets. Bright and visible from all around.
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jojotide - Yes it adds a new fuse, but the POWER to that fuse comes off the same ONE ONLY plug that the original one plugged into.
So basically it's like one of those extension cords that instead of having one female end, has 2 ends so you can plug 2 items in, but they STILL come off the ONE same male plug.
Given this, the wire that brings the power to that ONE ORIGINAL plug that everything, the old and your new addition is being powered with, was designed with the rating of that ORIGINAL fuse in mind.
So lets say the original fuse was 30 amps, it's probably 10 Ga, maybe 12 Ga wire to it. Just because you split it and have 2 fuses that total 45 amps does not mean it's safe because there are 2 fuses in there now. The WIRE can handle the 30 amps of the original setup, NOT necessarily 45 amps, the new setup. You'll burn it up.
Let me try to reword this.
Whatever fuse you add to the second circuit you put in there. Honestly, Id not go above 15 to 20 percent of the rating of the original fuse. So if your original fuse was 30 amps, Id not go above 5 or 6 amps with the new fuse.
Whatever you end up doing, watch for heat CAREFULLY, especially on hotter days when you don't have a crisp wind to help dissipate it. Wiring harness don't like a lot of heat and when you burn one of them up,you are not just replacing one bad socket, you'll be replacing the entire harness / box. Got a few grand laying around?
Aaron
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@Aaron I hear you. Thx for your concern.
After finishing the cablework I switched emergency flashing on and let it run for some time to check if that triggers error codes.
Checked the temperature of the added relays and cables and could no find anything that felt warm. OK, that's not an all-confirming test.
In the end, the new indicators add about 4 Watt per side. In my understanding the circuit is good for 120 Watt (12 Volt 10 Ampere), so I don't think it's a high risk.
But I agree, if I am trying to add more powerful stuff, I will have to take more care not to overload the circuits.