ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Damon => Topic started by: NEW2elec on March 22, 2023, 07:41:08 AM
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I have access to a track video of the Hypersport but it's unlisted and I don't know if they want it posted.
The bike looks nimble and hits over 128 in the straight but if the business side isn't there someone else will have to pick up where they leave off if they can't continue.
There is supposed to be news in April but with Zero's layoffs, Lightning's "stock" options, Energica's parent company being overvalued at a dime a share and who knows what's going on with Sonders and Stark it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet.
We'll see.
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At least Energica is delivering and making good on warranty items etc.
That's something isn't it?
Id buy that for a dollar.
Aaron
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I have access to a track video of the Hypersport but it's unlisted and I don't know if they want it posted.
The bike looks nimble and hits over 128 in the straight but if the business side isn't there someone else will have to pick up where they leave off if they can't continue.
There is supposed to be news in April but with Zero's layoffs, Lightning's "stock" options, Energica's parent company being overvalued at a dime a share and who knows what's going on with Sonders and Stark it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet.
We'll see.
Shouldn't there be some sort of dig thrown at LiveWire too?
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There's a 5 snark limit per post in this forum. Maybe next one it'll be squeezed in.
Aaron
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I have access to a track video of the Hypersport but it's unlisted and I don't know if they want it posted.
The bike looks nimble and hits over 128 in the straight but if the business side isn't there someone else will have to pick up where they leave off if they can't continue.
There is supposed to be news in April but with Zero's layoffs, Lightning's "stock" options, Energica's parent company being overvalued at a dime a share and who knows what's going on with Sonders and Stark it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet.
We'll see.
I'm sure Energica is on the way to introduce mass market models. I think they're already expanding manufacturing facilities. Zero hopefully will pick up the pace. We certainly need healthy competition from passionate companies making electric bikes. Unfortunately Damon was all talk and no product. Making a good product is hard work and bringing it into production is even harder. Esp when it's as challenging as an electric motorcycle 🙂
Just my 2 cents..
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it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet
What? The world already has mass market electric motorcycles. Zero and Energica are doing a great job. It's just Damon that were an obvious failure/scam right from the start. Everyone but you could see that.
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Relatedly, the LW1 is finally available in Europe now, and it's priced about the same as its two main competitors so there is now a real choice of bikes. If you're well-heeled, at least.
Cas :)
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I have access to a track video of the Hypersport but it's unlisted and I don't know if they want it posted.
The bike looks nimble and hits over 128 in the straight but if the business side isn't there someone else will have to pick up where they leave off if they can't continue.
There is supposed to be news in April but with Zero's layoffs, Lightning's "stock" options, Energica's parent company being overvalued at a dime a share and who knows what's going on with Sonders and Stark it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet.
We'll see.
Shouldn't there be some sort of dig thrown at LiveWire too?
Nah they have a rich dad it doesn't matter what they do. There's a 5 snark limit per post in this forum. Maybe next one it'll be squeezed in.
Aaron
No limits but I just said the truth it's only snark if someone feels that it shouldn't have been said. it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet
What? The world already has mass market electric motorcycles. Zero and Energica are doing a great job. It's just Damon that were an obvious failure/scam right from the start. Everyone but you could see that.
Ah my favorite poster.
Zero still suffers from the same problems it had since the start. Snapping belts dieing chargers and batteries and DC converters. Firmware that makes the bike almost unusable aka magic charging. Now everyone is beating the CCS or die drum. Maybe they right the ship maybe not.
I tend to agree with ol Electric Terry when he said Energica makes a great bike but has to lose money on each one.
There is an end to that road no matter how nice the scenery is.
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There's a 5 snark limit per post in this forum. Maybe next one it'll be squeezed in.
Aaron
;D
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Hypersport on a test track. Can any of you figure out which track it is? This video is on the page with my Hypersport order information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPyf5rJQzMc
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I have access to a track video of the Hypersport but it's unlisted and I don't know if they want it posted.
The bike looks nimble and hits over 128 in the straight but if the business side isn't there someone else will have to pick up where they leave off if they can't continue.
There is supposed to be news in April but with Zero's layoffs, Lightning's "stock" options, Energica's parent company being overvalued at a dime a share and who knows what's going on with Sonders and Stark it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet.
We'll see.
Shouldn't there be some sort of dig thrown at LiveWire too?
Nah they have a rich dad it doesn't matter what they do. There's a 5 snark limit per post in this forum. Maybe next one it'll be squeezed in.
Aaron
No limits but I just said the truth it's only snark if someone feels that it shouldn't have been said. it just looks like maybe the world isn't ready for mass electric motorcycles yet
What? The world already has mass market electric motorcycles. Zero and Energica are doing a great job. It's just Damon that were an obvious failure/scam right from the start. Everyone but you could see that.
Ah my favorite poster.
Zero still suffers from the same problems it had since the start. Snapping belts dieing chargers and batteries and DC converters. Firmware that makes the bike almost unusable aka magic charging. Now everyone is beating the CCS or die drum. Maybe they right the ship maybe not.
I tend to agree with ol Electric Terry when he said Energica makes a great bike but has to lose money on each one.
There is an end to that road no matter how nice the scenery is.
While there may be people on the Zero EMF who have had problems with their bikes, my wife and I have used our Zero S and SR as our daily riders for many miles. No belt snapping, charging issues or brake problems. The Zero forum is fascinating to follow. There are some very technically knowledgeable people who have updates and issues way beyond the typical owners' comprehension. I find it fascinating and highly recommend folks on this forum to take a look.
I will reiterate that like many forums for many products you tend to hear about failures much more than folks like me who are happy with our bikes.
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Cagivarider I've had ongoing back and forth discussions with some of these guys for years now.
Most of them were Zero guys, I still have 2 myself. I'm glad yours are good but both of mine needed new batteries chargers and DC converters and people report the same with the Gen 3 bikes.
Now most are Energica super fans which is fine but they also have it in their heads that no one can make a bike that's better. I followed and cheered Energica from when they first came out as a $38k 15kWh 600 pound sport bike. I called them out when they came out with the Eva which was a weaker Ego with more upright seating that they still wanted as much as they charged for the Ego. They dropped the price down a year or so later (not because of me but it was crazy to buy the Eva at the time) and they have been picking up speed since they went down to the 25k range.
Damon at least wants to address the need for level 1,2 (full 7kw) and 3 charging. Trying to make a gas level powerful bike at a lower weight and get more range with better aero. The warning system (oh and that's all it is/was not something that controlled the bike for you) and shift were just add-ons. I see on FB they are asking people if they really even want those things or not and most don't care.
about them.
Most people on here didn't like Jay. They felt he was cocky without a huge tech back ground. I was banking on Derek from Alta to get the thing going not Jay so he didn't concern me. I guess Dom did leave which both sucks because he was very likeable and could very well show things aren't working out money wise or in development.
What they are trying to do is damn hard but there has been so much effort and work put into it that I reject a "scam" intent from most of the Damon team at worst. Iow most were/are trying to make the bikes the best they can be fail or not.
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I'm all for technological leaps and improvements in the industry, but they have to be based in reality. Before the LiveWire came out, little was known about it. It's no secret that I took some pot shots at it and didn't give it a chance. When it came out, a couple things happened that were very sobering for me:
1.) I got a chance to ride and study one up close for several weeks.
2.) An unnamed person quite involved in the design of the bike reached out. Not only did he let me know how hurtful what I was saying was with the amount of effort he personally had put into this project, he went above and beyond to explain a lot of the technical hurdles and how they overcame them. Without breaking any confidentiality agreements, he answered my questions and corrected a lot of misconceptions I had. I've experienced this before, from certain engineers at Zero.
I was wrong. I admit it, and I ended up making a very positive video review of the LiveWire and still, to this day, I speak very favorably of the bike. Any parsing of my post history here or any other social media platforms will reflect this. Since then I've decided to be a lot more careful. When Damon showed up we had questions. Lots of questions. The claims made were outlandish. Didn't seem real. But I didn't want a LiveWire v2. I asked questions and dug around as much as I could. The answers I was given were, at best, unsatisfactory and, at worst, bullshit. I know how to run basic numbers on bikes and components. I reached out to various industry professionals and contacts and, without bringing up Damon's name, asked what they thought of a claim of X, Y, or Z components with this capability at this weight and these dimensions.
Universally they all either rolled their eyes or just straight up laughed at the absurdity. Over time I was able to relay some of these questions even to Jay himself and he would respond with a straight-up lie. More than once. Repeated lies over a dozen different topics. This is me being a lot more careful because I don't like being wrong; no one does. I'm sorry; there are far, far too many red flags. I am being MORE than fair about this.
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In my case, I have been tainted by the years-long Lightning episode(s) and Damon was sure starting to sound like another Lightning (which even claimed to have a factory in China). Plus, both the technology and specification claims, along with their various amazing features were way too extreme to design and manufacture for any reasonable amount of money in my opinion. I continue to believe that Damon is never going to be able to mass produce a consumer product with a lot of those unusual features that were originally advertised at a price that the market will bear.
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Running the test mule through its paces
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMeDsdEkjw
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AT minute 1:00 to 1:03 I can see the bottom of the bike. I stopped it there to look at the linkage. Elsewhere I can see the piece that goes between swingarm pivot and the frame/battery/motor/reduction gear unit. It is stripped of bodywork, initially I thought that isn't how the bottom of a 200 mph capable bike would be designed, wind flow.
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They dropped the single-sided swingarm a while ago. Whether that affected the rear suspension linkage I have no idea. The test mule is more for battery and electronics testing from what I have seen.
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Damon is teasing a major announcement for May 2nd. Maybe a new batch of hats ... or possibly I will get to ride my Damon this Summer. 8)
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Or maybe some people will get some of their money back. That'd be nice.
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Morgan I couldn't help but notice that no one commented on the track videos.
Was it because all stock bikes from the other makers can ride like that so it's no big deal to wheelie at 100MPH and flick around that track?
Maybe you could look back at the wheelie videos you and Brandon made and see if you can tell any difference.
They may not be able to hit all of their performance goals in one bike but that was a nice demonstration of power from a prototype.
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You know there's also a really cool of the Mission Motors bike doing a wheelie on a track. Talk about a demonstration of power!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIPaDUCtNB8
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The Eva Ribelle can do wheelies at 80 MPH although inadvertently. Really was not that hard to do, and reminds you to go a bit easier on the throttle when on the road instead of the track. Although they look neat (at least that is what little billy the squid missile thinks), they are really not that hard to do, it's controlling them that's the real bitch, and coming back down at that speed, .. well, tank slappers build character don't they?
Electric Motors are all about torque, and instantly too, wheelies are really not that big of a deal with them as with an ICE that has power bands and other crap to contend with. ANYbody can take a prototype or 'demo bike' and tweak and twiddle it to do horse and pony tricks for the camera. It's what the stock bike out of the box can do on a daily basis that impresses long term.
JMO
Aaron
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Funny how there's no motopress on the big announcement. Plus, nothing of it on the Damon Website. Only a mention on Jay Giraud's Instagram stories. My money is on a battery development or charging speed advance that will raise more venture capital but delay the production and push back the production facility as they will be retooling the infrastructure to accommodate the new tech.
Or......a Damon ADV BIKE!!!
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As you all will see today or tomorrow, the news is the production locked Damon HS on display.
Spoiler alert : it's got mirrors, and wings.
They also announced a third party review out in June.
Oh it's on the new website already. DAMON.COM
Morgan I'm glad you have experience being wrong with the Livewire. It will help you out here.
So...yeah. 8)
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my old girlfriend had wings too but that didn't make her a pretty ride....
Aaron
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As you all will see today or tomorrow, the news is the production locked Damon HS on display.
Spoiler alert : it's got mirrors, and wings.
They also announced a third party review out in June.
Oh it's on the new website already. DAMON.COM
Morgan I'm glad you have experience being wrong with the Livewire. It will help you out here.
So...yeah. 8)
"production locked" I don't know what that means? Also what's the significance of a third party review? Like they'll give one to Cycle World or something for an in depth test?
my old girlfriend had wings too but that didn't make her a pretty ride....
Aaron
That's a terrible thing to say and your a terrible person for saying it. Besides, the Damon HS is a pretty ride. I just have doubts about ever seeing one in someone's garage.
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Just call me terrible then.
Atrocious Aaron ... yah, I like the sound of that.
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Just call me terrible then.
Atrocious Aaron ... yah, I like the sound of that.
Lol, there's a joke in there somewhere like comparing old girlfriends to Damons is insulting to ex girlfriends everywhere....
but I'm not smart enough to make it without insulting my own feminist sensibilities.
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What is the significance of this announcement?
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They are showing what the production bike will look like.
So no more changes. The bikes they build will be like that one.
Now I'm waiting to see the third party review.
Some track time is fine but I do want to see some good road tests as well.
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Ok, was able to find out more. Here's the big announcement:
They are abandoning the new factory under construction in Canada. Everything is being moved to their CA facilities. At this time that means 999 Andersen Dr, San Rafael, CA 94901 which is a large-ish building with nearly a dozen other tenants.
(https://i.imgur.com/ILACiBr.png)
Here's a LinkedIn short (https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6993607884571893762/) featuring the San Rafael crew. Should be noted that 3 of the 9 listed employees have been fired/let go.
edit- it looks like with the space shared between them and Michael's Sourdough Sandwiches that catered lunches will be no problem at all.
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Are they actually abandoning their new factory?
This reminds me an awful lot of Lightning and their factory in China, complete with huge logo...
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Jay decided to appear in a month and a half old reddit thread and drop all this. https://old.reddit.com/r/Electricmotorcycles/comments/11vucs1/damon_motorcycles_layoffs_janfeb_2023/
You can view his profile here: https://old.reddit.com/user/Jaygiraud
We're shifting production to our facility in California when we're ready to start production, which is delayed due to some challenges in 2022. The building here in Vancouver proved to be too expensive and unfortunately the Gov of Canada and BC are not providing any support to create jobs. US is WAY more supportive in that regard. If you're a reservation holder, you've got an email in your inbox providing details. Thanks for your support! Making something from nothing is about the most challenging thing there is, but man is it worth it. All the best
Jay
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Jay decided to appear in a month and a half old reddit thread and drop all this. https://old.reddit.com/r/Electricmotorcycles/comments/11vucs1/damon_motorcycles_layoffs_janfeb_2023/
You can view his profile here: https://old.reddit.com/user/Jaygiraud
We're shifting production to our facility in California when we're ready to start production, which is delayed due to some challenges in 2022. The building here in Vancouver proved to be too expensive and unfortunately the Gov of Canada and BC are not providing any support to create jobs. US is WAY more supportive in that regard. If you're a reservation holder, you've got an email in your inbox providing details. Thanks for your support! Making something from nothing is about the most challenging thing there is, but man is it worth it. All the best
Jay
Producing electric motorcycles in Marin County is not going to be all that cheap, either. My daughter lives in Marin and every time she tries to make an improvement to her home, the county wants to get involved with lots of expensive permits and inspections, along with requirements to notify all of the neighborhood residents to see if they have any objections to what is going to be done. But maybe that new facility will just be their HQ offices and a place to assemble prototypes and they will go looking for another production factory in someplace like Texas or Alabama? ???
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"We're shifting production to our facility in California when we're ready to start production"
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It just seemed to me that establishing a vehicle production facility in the city of San Rafael is kind of odd from a financial viewpoint. It is a very expensive place for the workers to live, in comparison with other areas of California or other states. And there will be a lot of burdensome state and local regulations to follow for the company.
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That is not the factory location.
That is the home office location.
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Any word on where the factory location might be?
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My guess and only a guess would be make the 26 bikes aka the Founders Edition bikes at the San Fran spot and go from there.
My snark answer would be take over the Zero factory when it (likely) goes over seas.
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Holy fucking shit, is the CEO really blaming the government for his company's problems?
Really giving me Lightning vibes. Wasn't there a point when Strike production was delayed because of trump tariffs?
Also, wasn't that factory built to spec for Damon, with all financing secured including for tooling and machinery, and wasn't it supposed to be one of their major advantages.
If he thinks the government there isn't helping enough (didn't they literally have government people appear in a marketing video praising investments made) wait until he finds out how much manufacturing in California costs!
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It's a typical duck / run / and blame the world for your own incompetence tactic.
california is NOT friendly to business really. The price of doing business there, for a company that is barely making it as it is, is going to kill them, BUT this gives them the perfect excuse to just go away.
The government was the cause of our failure, they didn't do this, that person didn't do that, this didn't happen, it's the worlds fault, I was a wait for it.... I was the VICTIM WAAAAHHHH feel sorry for me and give me my compensation.
sounds like a typical sjw snowflake loser.
good riddance, it won't be long now.. this IS the exit scheme.
must have taken lessons from the crypto market
Aaron
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Jay decided to appear in a month and a half old reddit thread and drop all this. https://old.reddit.com/r/Electricmotorcycles/comments/11vucs1/damon_motorcycles_layoffs_janfeb_2023/
You can view his profile here: https://old.reddit.com/user/Jaygiraud
We're shifting production to our facility in California when we're ready to start production, which is delayed due to some challenges in 2022. The building here in Vancouver proved to be too expensive and unfortunately the Gov of Canada and BC are not providing any support to create jobs. US is WAY more supportive in that regard. If you're a reservation holder, you've got an email in your inbox providing details. Thanks for your support! Making something from nothing is about the most challenging thing there is, but man is it worth it. All the best
Jay
I'm a reservation holder and did not receive the mentioned email. Yep, this is all looking dismal......
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I got the letter. There are at least two versions. One is for people with early North America deposits. The other, shorter, version is for other parts of the world. The first batch of bikes will come out of the California factory. Twenty five percent of the early orders are from California. I will probably drive down from Washington State to pick mine up when it is ready.
Patience is a virtue at the moment. As I said previously, I can afford to lose $US 100 if Damon fails, but like saving thousands when they succeed.
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Each bike comes with a fresh loaf of sourdough from down the hall!
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Is this so called "California factory" an actual thing or is it something Damon is making up to make it looks like there is progress? Hard to tell from here.
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California Dreamin' Baby !!
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There are two different parts in my mind.
One and most important part is the product.
That's the bike itself. Can they make a bike, yes even just one, that can do most of the things they set out to do.
If so that’s a win, because at that point it can be bought out and or copied by another group with more money.
The second part is obviously the business side of Damon.
Some of the commenters in this section want to act like having all of Canada shut off from the world for Covid for a few years was somehow no big deal.
Reality check: IT DON'T GET ANY WORSE THAN THAT.
Now looking back they hired too many non design staff and spent too freely on some nice things that weren't essential in the early years in my opinion.
Still there has been a lot of good work done and the bike(s) look great and are very close to the prototype at CES.
There will be a third party review of the production locked bike next month. That will be the make or break moment for the bike. If it does what they claimed (or very close) that is a win. If not they will likely close up shop before too long and the chips will fall where they may.
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Can they make a bike, yes even just one, that can do most of the things they set out to do.
Plenty of entrepreneurs think exactly like that. They're the ones that fail.
Making a good product at scale and at profit - that's what separates the wheat from the chaff.
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No shit.
The point is if there is a 200MPH 200ish mile range bike with level 1 2 and 3 charging then a big company with big money can buy it out and they could make the bike. The hard R&D would be done.
Of course with Zero Livewire and Energica all losing money there aint no wheat.
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Chaff is good fiber... still necessary in the diet :P, it helps your wallet go poop your bank account balance
Aaron
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No shit.
The point is if there is a 200MPH 200ish mile range bike with level 1 2 and 3 charging then a big company with big money can buy it out and they could make the bike. The hard R&D would be done.
Of course with Zero Livewire and Energica all losing money there aint no wheat.
The hard r&d is how to make it actually profitable and manufactured at scale. A prototype isn't worth shit.
Lightning is a good example of this.
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Well Hoodie the term Production Locked means not a prototype. If one goes out to a customer it will be just like this bike on the test ride.
I don't know who is doing this third party test ride. I don't know if it's on a track or closed road or out in the real world. Hell they may have filmed it already or it may fall through completely.
By your logic again Zero Livewire and Energica aint worth shit because they all lose money selling electric motorcycles so if Damon makes a bike that can do more than the other shit company bikes they win huh?
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Yeah it's production locked but they have no place to actually produce it. Makes sense.
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I try to stay supportive and optimistic of every company that wants to build an electric motorcycle. I put down (and lost) my deposit on a Mission R. I put down (but got back) my deposit on a Lightning. Nothing about Damon felt any different, or convinced me that putting down a deposit on a third fantasy bike was a good idea.
Until they have a showroom with demo bikes to ride and proof that they can service and support all the bikes they make, it's not worth even getting excited about.
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I try to stay supportive and optimistic of every company that wants to build an electric motorcycle. I put down (and lost) my deposit on a Mission R. I put down (but got back) my deposit on a Lightning. Nothing about Damon felt any different, or convinced me that putting down a deposit on a third fantasy bike was a good idea.
Until they have a showroom with demo bikes to ride and proof that they can service and support all the bikes they make, it's not worth even getting excited about.
That is my thought, also.
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I try to stay supportive and optimistic of every company that wants to build an electric motorcycle. I put down (and lost) my deposit on a Mission R. I put down (but got back) my deposit on a Lightning. Nothing about Damon felt any different, or convinced me that putting down a deposit on a third fantasy bike was a good idea.
Until they have a showroom with demo bikes to ride and proof that they can service and support all the bikes they make, it's not worth even getting excited about.
Well Sam I guess this is as good a time as any. After chipping in a little to point out flaws with Lightning in an attempt to help you not get burned I felt bad that you were disappointed after getting so excited. Shortly after the Damon was released at CES and I started following them with hopes that it would be a bike that fulfilled all your needs and replace the Lightning.
Then it turned out that I really liked it and thought hell I'll get one for myself. So for $100 I got in line for a bike with specs that simply blow away every other bike offered.
i enjoyed following their progress and as the factory was filmed being built I felt it was almost a sure thing they would put out at least some bikes. As this thread states I still hope they can but it's looking shaky with investment capital drying up when they need it the most. If they end up doing test rides in CA I may fly out to at least get test ride like you got on the Lightning, we'll see.
At this point I'm concerned with what Zero will do now that they have shut down production and Ideanomics is trading around $.04 and no dealers in GA i can't really get behind Energica either. I will say the Experia is probably the best bike you can get today for most all riding needs.
I guess I just felt that Damon was offering a bike that I thought would be possible by now when I started this journey in 2014.
I have been disappointed that so many people hated on the company when they have shown they at least have been working on making the bikes. It's like everybody was so worried to get excited about the bike and then be sad if it failed.
I never said anyone should put down a deposit, just give them some encouragement or be cautiously neutral but folks hopped on the hate train pretty quick. I guess it's human nature for the unknown or in this case the unproven improvements they were promising.
If they fold and I lose $100 I'll live. I could still get the bike for about $3k less because I put in an early deposit, if they put some out that is.
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Let me know if you'd like to put a deposit down on an Experia.
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Don't put me in the hate train. I want to see totally propriatary vs totally propriatry versus offerings with more generic pieces. The model/employee that thought she would race a Damon once the Energica monopoly of motoE ended. Maybe hate train against all the moto journalists that submit articles to what would seem to be main stream publications. Like the carbon copy of the Lightning now offers multiple variants, then the same with Damon. You are not off road but Ossa really modern dirt bike that was much typing over nothing really.
Edit: Youtube has me on Aptera related suggestions. Carissa seems absent she wanted one of them.
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I have been down on Damon just because of their fantastic claims for a bike that was not in production. It just seemed to me as if they were tolling for investors. I have been following the electric motorcycle industry since 2008 and have seen so many startup companies come and go over the years that I no longer believe anything that is not available to purchase in a brick-and-mortar showroom. Just look at the brands on this forum that are no longer around - and there are many more than that which have folded over the past 15 years. :(
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The "hate" wasn't becuase they were trying to build an impressive bike. It was because they were clearly lying and trying to con people. Compare them to Verge for instance. I've still not seen a production Verge bike but they at least seem to be getting on with building some bikes rather than concentrating on the smoke and mirrors to get hold of as much money as they can which - it must now seem obvious even to you NEW2elec - is going to vanish.
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Morgan thanks, not at this time though.
Fred I'm sorry but at most they took in maybe $500k in deposits and that's high. They likely spent $250k on that toy hauler RV.
I feel that if I chose to cancel my order they would refund my money, others already have. If I don't see the review video by July I might do that but again $100 don't change my life.
What they got from big investor companies I have no idea but those guys had to have seen something worthwhile in their plans to drop big money.
I don't get why they can't just have a company that had god awful timing with Covid and the economy drop down?
There is footage of a powerful bike zipping around a track so why bother going that far just to run with a little money?
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Another batch of 'kids' with a dream, and NO clue how to make it happen, who of course were reluctant to take the advice of the 'adults' who've been there done that already.... Seen it over and over and OVER again in so many industries, startups, new great ideas, that I lost count and care little anymore.
Got their 'startup cash' had their fun, now real life is knocking and they want their product, and monthly payments on that 'loan' they got. ruh roh shaggy.
At least Energica has brick and mortar stores that you CAN buy a bike at. In fact, one in florida has a few Ribelles's on the showfloor right now for sale.
You are in georgia, well you have TWO dealers around you. Yah it's a bit of a drive, and I admit, that does suck, but you can go down to florida, or up to So, Carolina - Team Rally Sports in Raleigh have some on the floor now as well.
I also believe that they can ship a bike directly TO you where you live. I know AF1 racing in Texas, who also sells them will do that for you. They have bikes in stock NOW as well. They ARE available for sale from REAL STORES.
I understand your skepticism and it is WELL founded, but Energica has proven themselves a few times already. They ARE here, they DO have models ready to buy now, and will work with you on getting you what you need.
Another thing to look at. Energica has been around for some years now. Some of the other bikes have been plagued with recall issues and other 'defects' that really dragged them down. So far we have not seen anything like that from Energica, it's showing itself to be a very solid bike, not only in durability and build, but performance on the track too!
I got one, and am actually contemplating getting another one. Id seriously say you should give them a solid thought. Call Morgan and talk to him, talk is much better than forums, I am sure he can answer most any of your concerns and if not, if there is something that Morgan is not able to help you with, it's over his head etc, Tom is also there to help as well. That's another thing about Energica, people ARE there whom you can talk to when you need, you don't get a robo answering machine.
Let's be brutally honest, with the current economy, things are NOT looking good for almost EVERY company out there. Most are keeping things tight to the belt, there are still a few years of rough times ahead at least. Id not expect any miracles here, from ANY e bike company TBH, and I can't see any of them just opening stores all over the place either at this point. The fact that Energica is still producing bikes, shipping bikes, and going, should say something. I don't see them going away anytime soon.
Aaron
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I was at A&S BMW in Roseville, California, three weeks ago and they had three Rebelles on their showroom floor ready to go.
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Well they still say there will be a third-party review of the bike soon on FB. It's kind of a guess the reviewer setup.
I know who I suggested, which is the person most qualified to ride an electric sport bike on a track and then give a review because he does it for a living but there are a couple others that wouldn't surprise me either.
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Seems to me they wouldn't want anyone who is familiar with electrics for comparison purposes, so I doubt they'd go for Troy. Just a hunch that was your guess.
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Pretty sure I already posted or told you directly that I wanted Troy the most so no Scooby-Doo points on that mystery.
They won't budge on saying who is doing it though.
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Troy is tied so closely with Wismann and the Lightfighter project. My guess is they'd want someone high profile with limited electric experience but with experience. Therefore they'd want Zack and Ari.
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Hell, give me a 12 pack and I'll demo the damned bike. I'll be honest, straight forward, and am somewhat knowledgeable.
Nobody knows me either, so can't say I am biased :D
Aaron
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Troy is tied so closely with Wismann and the Lightfighter project. My guess is they'd want someone high profile with limited electric experience but with experience. Therefore they'd want Zack and Ari.
Zack and Ari...from Common Tread on Youtube? I would love to see that.
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Zack and Ari...from Common Tread on Youtube? I would love to see that.
It wouldn't be their first foray into electric because they drag raced an LS-218 against a Kawasaki H2
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Maybe.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Fortnine either since he's in Canada.
I'd rather it wasn't Yammie but I'll take what I can get at this point.
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Lol, just let the one bike make it's way down all the Moto-Youtubers. Hell, let Gixxerbrah swing a leg over it and flog it in traffic :)
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Well I see he at least wants to test ride one.
From the Yammie Noob Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPp3GwGC88
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Great, another screen for these idiot fucking gen Z morons to be staring into like a zombie as they ride off a cliff because the bike didn't tell them it was there. Well at least that's one way to get rid of them. While all the radars and stuff sound nice and give you a warm orgasmic tingly down your left leg, in the real world they are going to be just another distraction that you'll have to focus in on to see WTF, meaning you are focusing OFF the real world coming at you faster than the 60 FPS of his little phosphor god portal.
Seriously all that data will get distracting and given these kids today are not taught critical thinking to begin with, hey siri how do I avoid this semi coming at me? WHAP... blorp blurb, IM SUING!!!!!
The shifting rider positions looks really nice but a lot of gadgetry to get gunked up. What happens when the bike smacks down on it's side in a parking lot and slams that handlebar? That shifter still going to slide nice and easy or are you forking out 2 to 3 g to get the thing repaired now plus labor?
What that video should focus on is, he came out in 2019, it's mid 23, he got money for 100 MM of sales, yet still has not made one bike yet that has been delivered? I mean shit dude, even if you 5 and 10 them out, and buy an 8 ball with the profit, high 5 your bro, and build another 5 to 10 and deliver them, at least that would be SOMEthing to say you are real.
Aaron
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Well I see he at least wants to test ride one.
From the Yammie Noob Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPp3GwGC88
I wonder how much editorial input Damon had in that piece. I was expecting the Ol' Papa Yam to eviscerate the brand for all show and no go. But the lack or real bikes barely got a mention.
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So it looks like Tim Stevens is the first media person to ride the bike. I don't know if this is all that there will be for now or if they show him riding it?
Anyway I see Sam and Steven saw it already. From Damon's Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIOlJRyh5Ig
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I hope there's more to it, like an in-depth article comparing this to other gas and electric bikes. Two minutes with barely any footage of the journalist riding it isn't enough.
If anybody from Damon is reading this, I'm offering to fly myself over and make a video for free if you'll let me!
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Dude. Literally NONE of the footage was of him. It's all from that replacement CTO. Red and black leathers, glasses, etc. They had like 2 stills of the 'journalist'. That reminds me:
There will be a third party review of the production locked bike next month. That will be the make or break moment for the bike. If it does what they claimed (or very close) that is a win. If not they will likely close up shop before too long and the chips will fall where they may.
This is the make or break moment you described. Well? Does this video make or break?
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Sam, really? I'd love for you to ride one and would love your opinion but my guess would be you're a little too close to Energica for them right now. Good luck with it if they contact you.
Morgan, I'll throw you a bone.
IF that is all there is to this media review that would be very weak and a bad look.
But I have to assume this is just a teaser video for his full review. I also assume he is just the first and not the only media guy to review the bike. There is no time-line or mention of other reviews at this time though.
To be fair the live action riding footage on this video is of the CTO, but it show still shots of the guy on the track on the bike.
I'm sure he gets to post his footage to whatever platform he uses for his own view count.
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The reason he is so close to Energica is because they well, you know. Shhh but....
Actually have a bike that IS in production AND runs, AND is not plagued with recalls......
Just a hunch.
Aaron
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I've known Sam for years and followed Energica since they first started.
I saw Damon replied to Sam's offer with "thanks for your interest" so it might be what I said was right, or just not part of their plan.
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That was an underwhelming review.
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"Too close to Energica" because I own one? ::)
If there's a better electric motorcycle out there, I'll buy it. That's why I sold my Zero. A few months ago I was half-seriously considering buying a Lightfighter track bike. I love Energica (the bikes and the company) but I'm not brand loyal. I have some gas bikes now so I'm not even electric motorcycle loyal anymore haha.
Flights are expensive but they'd be worth it to make a proper Damon review video.
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Look Sam I do trust that you'd give an honest review and some day I do hope you get to ride one.
That being said I'm pretty sure Energica didn't fly everyone who owns one of their bikes to Italy to join the media launch of the Experia along with a full factory tour, so I'll stand by my comment that you are pretty close to Energica. There is nothing wrong with that and you have helped them sell their bikes and help Zero sell theirs as well. But Energica is the top target bike that Damon has to beat to succeed.
There was one reservation holder in the Damon Lab (now shut down) who was constantly begging to tour with the bike and do track days and film it all and they never were interested.
They are being coy about if this guy will have a full review video so that's about all I know at this point. Hope they keep it going but it's not super promising at this point.
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If there's a better electric motorcycle out there, I'll buy it. That's why I sold my Zero.
How do you define "better"? IMO, what is best for each ride can depend on where you're going.
For one example, on the road, if there is only AC charging available, I can charge my Zero SR at 8KW (with my external chargers). With AC charging I can only charge my Energicas at 3KW--almost three times as long to charge. But if there is only CCS charging available, my Zeros stay home.
Zero is less maintenance. Lighter bike. My Zero DS with the small battery is the "better" bike to take on my RV trips.
I do not have a favorite of my 11 motorcycles. I enjoy them all, but perhaps for different reasons on each trip.
I could do the same type of comparisons with my ICE bikes, but since this is an EMF. . . .
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You're right that "better" is mostly subjective, but there are a few things Damon claims that I'd love to see in person:
They're lighter, more powerful, have better range, and their batteries are liquid-cooled so they could potentially charge faster as well.
If they can prove the bikes hit all these points, I'd consider them "better".
And to be clear, Energica flew out LOTS of journalists and people involved in motorcycle news. I'm just one of the few electric motorcycle focused youtubers who happens to own 2.5 Energicas, so I guess it was worth it for them to send me over. I'm offering to fly myself out to shoot a video on a Damon, because the one they released wasn't what anybody wanted.
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They're lighter, more powerful, have better range, and their batteries are liquid-cooled so they could potentially charge faster as well.
I have a hard time buying some of those things can all go together well. Such as "lighter and liquid-cooled". Most things are trade-offs, which means you usually have to sacrifice in one area to make something else "better". IOW, make something worse to make something else better.
But I would like to thank you now for all those great You-Tube videos you have made. I was just watching the one about changing a snapped Zero belt, excellent job!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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WHOA WHOA WHOA HOLD THE PHONE
Don, are you saying that.... Damon's claims might not be realistic? This is a shock. I am shocked. Shocked and chagrined.
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WHOA WHOA WHOA HOLD THE PHONE
Don, are you saying that.... Damon's claims might not be realistic? This is a shock. I am shocked. Shocked and chagrined.
I will believe it all, when I see it all. Until then . . . .
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The CEO is in Italy, talking about partners on his instagram.
Rizoma?
Ducati?
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The CEO is in Italy, talking about partners on his instagram.
Rizoma?
Ducati?
Trolling for dollars to keep the company afloat?
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Probably talking to Energica, wants to rebrand their bike so he can at least throw a label on something that works :D
Aaron
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Yeah, I posted that on his Instagram. He asked for guesses, I guessed Energica or Energica Inside.
He didnt dig that too much and kinda called me out for it. It was weird having an internet argument with the CEO of a major company in the public eye.
I mean he has less than 2000 followers so it's not like it was a scandal or something but still...as much as I want Damon to be real and actually succeed I think that guy is a condescending con man and relish every failure he has.
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He didnt dig that too much and kinda called me out for it. It was weird having an internet argument with the CEO of a major company in the public eye.
I mean he has less than 2000 followers so it's not like it was a scandal or something but still...as much as I want Damon to be real and actually succeed I think that guy is a condescending con man and relish every failure he has.
That's par for the course with Jay.
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If his product was SO awesome etc, he'd not let little digs like that get to him so much.
ie Ooh, did I hit a NERVE?!?!?!?!?!
A good reply would have been something like, yah, I got their sticker, to hold the trash bag on the side for when I am eating a burger... or anything really. A confident man talks smack and lets stuff like that just roll off, because he knows folks are clowning, or just being..snotty for humor's sake..... it does not bother him because he KNOWS his product has value. .. ... OR, this person, is actually adult enough to just, not say anything, and not indulge our childish desires for discord :) An intellectually and emotionally stunted child now, will immediately scream and cry and plays the pussy little victimized bitch for pity points, as it appears we are seeing. NOT a good look for a 'alleged soon to be' multi billion dollar corporation.
people who blow like that, are typically hiding something and you struck it with your Mining Pick of Truth.
just my opinions.
A A Ron
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I think getting my deposit back was a good move.
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Good thing they actually gave it back. I mean if the bike does hit the mainstream, NOT being an early depositer means what? you get it two months later? after how many years of waiting?
Did they mention any 'entry' prices for the thing and those who did cough up some bucks get a locked in price, or did they leave that open to be 'figured out' when you get the bike? If there is NO incentive to put money down on anything, then it's best NOT to. If they want to sell them bad enough they'll make it happen, YOUR deposit or not.
Ive been looking at the Rivian for a while now, I want to say a few years. They wanted a 1000 deposit, I said NO. The truck STILL is not fully being manufactured two years later. I think they said they'd be making the hi cap one in a few months. Then they say and once they do you should be able to get delivery in a few weeks to a few months most. Ok so you hold MY money for two years, and I get nothing for it, except the 'Privelige' of paying your jacked up prices first. I held onto my money and when you DO finally market them, I'll be able to get one within a week or so of the person who handed over their cash two years ago, so WHY let my money go???
Even if you had to wait a few months, just having that time to see what shakes out in those few months problem wise is well worth it. Look at the Chevy Bolt when it came out, they had to recall the entire years line I believe because of a bad battery issue. By waiting, you got to avoid that whole disaster there.... just saying.....
I honestly can NOT see ANYONE really saying, well YOU didn't put a deposit down so we don't want your money now and won't sell you one.
Ill hold my own money until you have product ready to buy, thank you.
Aaron
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+1 :)
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Look at the Chevy Bolt when it came out, they had to recall the entire years line I believe because of a bad battery issue. By waiting, you got to avoid that whole disaster there.... just saying.....
Perhaps a bad example since Chevrolet did a good job making things right. In 2023 they took my 2019 bolt with a 60 kWh battery, and three days later gave it back with a 66 kWh battery along with a new warranty starting from scratch.
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Early deposits get the bike about $3k less.
Not that it matters much now but there was an interview with one of the inside guys who was Italian and he said back in 2019 that he felt they wouldn't be able to get bikes into production until 2025 so this delay is no real surprise to me. I had hoped it would go quicker but now just want them to get to market at all.
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Unfortunately the world is going to shit here real fast. Whether they make it, and to be honest, whether the ones who already have, are still around by then remains to be seen!
When you think about it that is STILL 2 years away. Look how fast the e bike market is evolving! In 2 years, their cream in your jeans bike is now a .. meh... everyone's got one of those now, what do you have that's new and better??? Just like the cars, just like the computers etc etc. Competition is going to be real rough, and if you are running on a 5 yo concept you FINALLY got to market. well.... good luck.
Aaron
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There will be a third party review of the production locked bike next month. That will be the make or break moment for the bike.
So now that the full article came out in Wired, can we assume that to be the make or break moment discussed? It was written by the same guy in the video and wasn't any sort of review; it was just a pure puff piece. I'm just going off the terms you dictated.
Is the article by Tim Stevens in Wired a 'make'? Or was it a 'break'?
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Link the writeup if you can, I'd like to see it.
They are still alive and posting so they aren't broken yet.
It's not a good look though. If I lose $100 I'll live.
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You've gotta buy a copy of Wired. But here's an excerpt.
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Well it seems to cover what's going on. Not all rainbows and sunshine. There are issues that they may or may not be able to overcome.
Still not road legal so limited in what he can do.
They are still alive, what more can you say.
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I am following up based on the criteria you set. You said there would be a third party review of the production-locked bike. This is piece of writing in question which fails to be a review. It doesn't matter because in the end the article itself is your defining 'make or break' point. This are the goal posts you set and I refuse to see them moved further.
Did this MAKE
or
Did this BREAK
You set the terms. Do you have the decency to fulfill them and answer?
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Wow you really hate Jay don't you?
My definition of "break" is the death of the company. Shut it down, file the paperwork, no more Damon Motorcycles.
While "make" is going forward and building some bikes then gaining traction and becoming a big player in the market.
The results of the review will take a little time and will depend on if there is more to come fairly soon or if you hear crickets for the next few months. I wanted to see a road test but that didn't happen. The company doesn't hinge on me and my expectations though. Some people just wanted a track toy all along so for that they may be happy with the progress.
They clearly say they need more money to go into production. Will they get it? That's where they are now and if they have make enough progress to get more money from an interested party is anyone's guess.
Purely my "guess" because I know you want one, is a buy out or merger is the best chance of getting bikes to market.
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Now on the other front, it's your turn. We had two disagreements. One was is Damon going to work as a company but the other was can they make a bike with (or near) there claimed specs, at all.
Are you willing to admit the bike, though not production, is fairly impressive so far? I saw the bench test of the motor with external power put out 248HP. We all see that thing power wheelie down the track. My only concern there is was that bike fully loaded with cells or was it a 10 or 15kWh setup to make it lighter?
It's built almost the exact same way as the Ducati ebike so there is clearly success in that 2170 horizontal stack approach which you felt pouch cells were the way to go.
So you're in the lead with the company might fail side, but I'm feeling good on the bike's setup as a product is the better approach part of the argument.
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A couple months ago you made a statement that by July and after a 3rd-party review it would be a make or break moment. The appointed time comes and goes with accompanying media. I ask you to follow up on your statement.
You become so defensive that your opening line is accusational and refers to someone I didn't even mention in my post and then proceed to dance around and give a non-answer.
After that, having utterly failed to fulfill your end of the bargain, you insist I answer some of your questions. Just want to clarify that's what's going on here, yes? Confirm that and I can move forward.
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Like two dogs, running in circles, sniffing each other's asses, deciding which one hunches first.
At this point, MY OPINION, if they do not have the venture capital to put bikes out, after all the huff and puff they did, it looks like it's pretty much a done deal for them. If they have not sucked anyone else into giving them the 'cash' they need, then it's extremely unlikely it's going to happen at all now.
Even though they are currently idle, they STILL have employees to pay, rent to pay, ... that stuff, so the bills are climbing, and nothing is coming in, unless they want to bombard PooTube with tons of really neat track vids and try to survive on the page clicks from that.
Even IF they resorted to just giving a few wizz boys a neat new track toy, they havent even really don't that yet either, so, where's the life support at this point?
BTW bench mounting a motor and HP testing it, is misleading at best .vs. real world.
Did they set it up on one of the actual batteries it's going to run on, or a power supply? Batteries can sag badly, power supplies, if it's hefty enough, not so much. Throw a few farads on the head end and you won't even have to worry about ripple much either even with hundreds of amps.
Aaron
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You see I can't tell when you are being joking or when you are taking things way too seriously. That's why I offered to talk to you on the phone if you really cared about what I thought or why I felt this or that would happen.
This is the game:
COMPANIES NEED MONEY TO MAKE PRODUCTS.
INVESTORS WANT TO KNOW THAT THE PRODUCT THAT GETS MADE IS WANTED BY CONSUMERS.
WHEN A COMPANY SAYS THEY WANT TO MAKE A 200 MILE RANGE 200HP AND 200MPH BIKE. AS A CONSUMER YOU SAY YES!!!
IF COMPANY "A" CAN'T MAKE IT MAYBE COMPANY "B" CAN OR "C" OR "D" BUT YOU MAKE SURE THE MONEY GUYS KNOW YOU WANT THAT KIND OF BIKE OR YOU WILL NEVER EVER GET IT.
It costs you nothing to post that is what you want, hell you can say that you don't know if they can pull it off or not but you publicly support the effort. Period.
You've call Jay a liar and said he was full of shit and so on. I don't care if you like him or not. You two can enter the thunder dome for all I care.
As of right now Damon is still alive and still posts it plans to build bikes. So it's not "broken" so he review must have "made" them huh?
There you go that's the answer to that question.
Now you jumped all over how using 2170 cells was so stupid and pouch cells were the way to go when Damon first announced that was their approch to the bike.
That Ducati is setup so damn similar it isn't even funny but you didn't say anything bad about Ducati.
Do you want to now admit you were wrong about that?
That question has a clear answer and it was 2170 cells at least put out better power. Will they last long term is really the only question there.
Damon the company needs money. Use your crystal ball and say if they get it or not. I'll admit I don't know what will happen over the next year and either way I'm fine.
It's not that serious man relax.
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Unless they make some serious dope deals somewhere, I can't see the money coming in. I mean why would it, if it hasn't over the past year or so? What has drastically changed from then to now that would make someone say, oh awesome, here's some money?
As far as cell tech, not getting into that mess, seen too much happen both ways to take sides there. Pouches / Prismatic, if you can keep them cool and keep the power density up, go for it. Engineering wise, on paper, a pouch (read polygonal shape) ie 90 degree angles, ie NOT circular, makes much more sense because there is a lot less wasted space than between the circles. But ON that note too, if it needs cooling... send the cooling down those wasted space channels between the circles, you already reserved the real estate, now put it to use!
I think we pretty much are about at the end of the current tech for battery chemistry and motor design until someone comes out with a new chemistry with better power stats. You are not going to squeeze much more out of the current chem. Motor design you can fiddle and fuddle with a bit, but ultimately they have not changed very much over the past 100 years. Make them dense to run more power thru them, IF you can keep them cool. Right now, use the exotics in the laminations for more flux density, but ultimately... like any power transformer, which a motor, really at it's core, is a rotating transformer with it's secondary shorted out, once you have saturated the core, improvements come screeching to a halt. No higher voltage is NOT going to help once you saturated the flux at the core, all that does is tend to make ringing and eventually kaboom !
Still, I will say, yah Id love to see a 200 MPH e bike. Don't care what the HP is if it can make that speed and do it quickly.
As for torque, well once you popped the wheelie, MORE torgue really is moot at that point, once you turned your tires into a burning ring of fire, more torque is really moot at that point. To get you from 140 to 180 in a few seconds, now you need torque, but all this fuss about how fast a bike can 'theoretically' go from 0 to 60. Mostly hype. How many can you actually Do that as is out of the box, and actually be able to DO it without messing with tire pressures, balancing and all kinds of other crap because the bike wants so stand on end it's so powerful? 0 to 60 in 1.4 seconds IF you ever figured out a way to hold on.... ok whatever. A car, all those G forces are pushing you snugly into your seat, you are still in control, a bike they are trying to rip you off the bike... a bit of a problem there.
Your turn :D
Aaron
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If I was Damon I don't think I would want to borrow any money from Harley Davidson. ::)
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Does Harley even have the money to hand out? From what I heard, they are not doing super well themselves. Unless they are trying to get the rights from the bike that Harley spun off so they have a working model?
Aaron
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Does Harley even have the money to hand out? From what I heard, they are not doing super well themselves. Unless they are trying to get the rights from the bike that Harley spun off so they have a working model?
Aaron
That is what I was think of. Recalling what they did to Alta Motors when they invested in the company. >:(
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Now you jumped all over how using 2170 cells was so stupid and pouch cells were the way to go when Damon first announced that was their approch to the bike.
That Ducati is setup so damn similar it isn't even funny but you didn't say anything bad about Ducati.
Do you want to now admit you were wrong about that?
That question has a clear answer and it was 2170 cells at least put out better power. Will they last long term is really the only question there.
They are stupid. Pouch cells are clearly a better application. I don't really care necessarily what Ducati is doing because they're not making anything for consumers or the public. Sort of like I don't really care what they use in the Voxan Wattman land speed record bikes. (https://www.venturi.com/en/voxan-motors/) It bears little relevance to the market. As to why I harp on 21700s, I asked the smartest battery person in the industry I know what the theoretical maximum stack efficiency of a 21700 is:
The staggered fill packing for cylinders has a theoretical maximum of 81% fill factor assuming all are touching on all adjacent faces. You need a minimum of 1.3mm spacing for LV pack between cells, this costs ~8% packaging volume, now you're at 73%. Now you need your cell interconnect volume, being single sided wire bonded is the smallest packaging that's mass production friendly, it's 8mm total height above the cell when you're awesome at keeping it all tight. This makes it 78mm vs 70mm for another 89% multiplier to our above 73% value for a total packaging volumetric efficiency of 65% assuming you have no cooling system and just did optimization for energy storage while still passing propagation and being production mfg capable.
You are losing 35% of available space by using 21700s in a perfectly built configuration. The stack efficiency of pouches is way higher than that and have higher C rates for both charge and discharge.
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C rates is only a part of the quality formula. Higher C rates generally mean fewer cycles. How many cycles can they take will be a BIG question to answer. Then there's always the problem of thermal runaway, some chemistries and form factors just have more issues with that than others.
Aaron
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They don’t care about cycle count for a race bike. They’re gonna scrap the packs each season.
Edit- this is me referring to Ducati
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Meanwhile a bike using 2170 cells:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6W97B1KHDko
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Just think how much better it would be with pouches. Mmmm.