ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Kill3rT0fu on February 26, 2023, 08:03:43 PM
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It was my understanding that, for whatever reason, only 2 diginow chargers (or 3.3kw chargers) could be used at a time via the AUX port on the read of the bike. And the third charger has to be connected directly to the
battery controller.
Then I just watched New Zeroland's video and he's using 3 connected at the same time. Is this possible to do with the diginow chargers? Or was I mistaken with my initial assessment that only 2 could be connected at a time?
My ULTIMATE end goal is to have the diginow pack installed, and then a charge tank. If this is even feasible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWFV5VsRp9M&t=235s
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Nothing plugs directly into the battery. The third usually went to the lugs on the controller. There is a very specific reason for this. Zero's charging harness has a heat-based 100 amp fuse that is ... insulated. Each 3.3kW charging brick delivered 32 amps to the pack. 32 x 3 = 96. That's... uncomfortably close to the 100 amp max on a thermal fuse that, again, is insulated. Therefore we opted to run 2 through the harness which will cap out at 64 amps.
If you void your warranty rip out the fuse from the charging harness you can run all 3 on that line at your own risk.
It should be noted that the later model units we specced out had an overclock feature and were capable of delivering up to 40 amps when they got AC input over 247vac.
edit- i just watched the video (4 years ago hot damn) and I guess you're not aware that the biggest configuration we sold was the 9.9kW triple unit with 2xJ1772 which was coined as the original "Dub-J" charging. Here's an example I made of using one on a customer's bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbETocQTXkg
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edit- i just watched the video (4 years ago hot damn) and I guess you're not aware that the biggest configuration we sold was the 9.9kW triple unit with 2xJ1772 which was coined as the original "Dub-J" charging. Here's an example I made of using one on a customer's bike:
Right, third one to the controller! Thanks for the correction. The 2x J1772 is the model I have. That's why I was asking about nixing the second J1772 port and just running all 3 in parallel. But I do still have the battery warranty, so I guess I'll maybe avoid it. But the to run all three in parallel I'd need a 3-way split anderson connector, right? Where does the red (data?) anderson connector go for the third charger? Also, since it's a heat based fuse, can't it be cooled with some air circulation? Where is the fuse located? (is this the fuse New Zeroland pulls out with his charger replacement?)
Alternatively, can I snip the anderson connectors off the 3 chargers and just connect all 3 to the controller lugs? And again, what about those data connectors on the red anderson plug? Are there any wiring diagrams still around I can glance at?
I'm surprised Zero would even honor a battery warranty with any aftermarket chargers.
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I'm surprised Zero would even honor a battery warranty with any aftermarket chargers.
In the USA, Zero would have to prove the added chargers caused the warranty problem.
IOW, if that fuse blows, they will blame the chargers and that will void the warranty if too close to the rating of that fuse. Otherwise, if the problems was not caused by aftermarket stuff, you're okay.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm surprised Zero would even honor a battery warranty with any aftermarket chargers.
In the USA, Zero would have to prove the added chargers caused the warranty problem.
IOW, if that fuse blows, they will blame the chargers and that will void the warranty if too close to the rating of that fuse. Otherwise, if the problems was not caused by aftermarket stuff, you're okay.
-Don- Reno, NV
This is true, but also there will definitely be pushback and is that really an argument I want to have with a maker/dealer? Sure they legally should cover it, but I'm sure they wouldn't want to and I'd be arguing from there and is that worth my time?
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Right, third one to the controller! Thanks for the correction. The 2x J1772 is the model I have. That's why I was asking about nixing the second J1772 port and just running all 3 in parallel. But I do still have the battery warranty, so I guess I'll maybe avoid it. But the to run all three in parallel I'd need a 3-way split anderson connector, right? Where does the red (data?) anderson connector go for the third charger? Also, since it's a heat based fuse, can't it be cooled with some air circulation? Where is the fuse located? (is this the fuse New Zeroland pulls out with his charger replacement?)
Alternatively, can I snip the anderson connectors off the 3 chargers and just connect all 3 to the controller lugs? And again, what about those data connectors on the red anderson plug? Are there any wiring diagrams still around I can glance at?
I'm surprised Zero would even honor a battery warranty with any aftermarket chargers.
The only red Andersons we ever used (SB50RED) were for ground lines. Early iterations of the chargers used the sumitomo connector to an SBS50BRN for AC input and the SB50RED for ground. DC output was color coded to the SB50GRY. You can merge all the AC into 1 J1772 inlet with enough Y adapters. Lord knows I had a stack of them on my personal SR. I'll show you some videos I made of it for the guy who bought it from me so he could make sense of it; maybe it will help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyjESYx2t1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuxBKaJANkI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZejHvUN4U
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Right, third one to the controller! Thanks for the correction. The 2x J1772 is the model I have. That's why I was asking about nixing the second J1772 port and just running all 3 in parallel. But I do still have the battery warranty, so I guess I'll maybe avoid it. But the to run all three in parallel I'd need a 3-way split anderson connector, right? Where does the red (data?) anderson connector go for the third charger? Also, since it's a heat based fuse, can't it be cooled with some air circulation? Where is the fuse located? (is this the fuse New Zeroland pulls out with his charger replacement?)
Alternatively, can I snip the anderson connectors off the 3 chargers and just connect all 3 to the controller lugs? And again, what about those data connectors on the red anderson plug? Are there any wiring diagrams still around I can glance at?
I'm surprised Zero would even honor a battery warranty with any aftermarket chargers.
The only red Andersons we ever used (SB50RED) were for ground lines. Early iterations of the chargers used the sumitomo connector to an SBS50BRN for AC input and the SB50RED for ground. DC output was color coded to the SB50GRY. You can merge all the AC into 1 J1772 inlet with enough Y adapters. Lord knows I had a stack of them on my personal SR. I'll show you some videos I made of it for the guy who bought it from me so he could make sense of it; maybe it will help you.
Thanks a bunch for the info, still. It's appreciated. I found a 3 to 1 Y adapter for the main power andersons. But the red ones I'm still looking. Since you said you had a stack, do you have a vendor you've used in the past? Or did you build your own?
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Used to buy in bulk from Mouser.com
Make sure whatever wires and connectors you use are rated to handle the amount of current you want to run. I have under-specced it and melted parts before.
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Used to buy in bulk from Mouser.com
Make sure whatever wires and connectors you use are rated to handle the amount of current you want to run. I have under-specced it and melted parts before.
Aw crap I forgot about that. The cables I found are only for 40amps. What gauge cables did you find worked for all 3 chargers? Should be 4 AWG, right? I'll just get a crimp tool and make my own.
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Remember the AC input is 240vac, so you're running fewer amps through it than the DC output to the bike. If you're going to power all 3 chargers you're only pulling a max of ~41 amps.
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Oh okay, makes more sense. So would a cable rated for 40 amps be enough? The one i was looking at is rated for 40 amp, made of 12 AWG wire.
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I forgot about that. The cables I found are only for 40amps. What gauge cables did you find worked for all 3 chargers? Should be 4 AWG, right? I'll just get a crimp tool and make my own.
Think in watts as that changes very little between input and output of the chargers. Less than 10% wasted in heat. 240VAC times 40amps=9,600 watts worth of chargers is what you're good for. 8AWG is good for 50 amps and that is what I would use.
In fact, that is what I use on my 2017 Zero SR to charge at 8KW using my external chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Oh okay, makes more sense. So would a cable rated for 40 amps be enough? The one i was looking at is rated for 40 amp, made of 12 AWG wire.
Best to rate the wires as 20% above what you really need.
See here. (https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/)
-Don- Reno, NV
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If the connection is immediately split from the J1772 head you only need wiring that does 15 amps for each one. Every single line isn't pulling 40 amps, just the station's delivery system to your inlet. If it's immediately split then each charger only requests ~14 amps tops.
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If the connection is immediately split from the J1772 head you only need wiring that does 15 amps for each one. Every single line isn't pulling 40 amps, just the station's delivery system to your inlet. If it's immediately split then each charger only requests ~14 amps tops.
Yep, but I have some overkill on my bike as I have the OBC and then two external 3.3 KWH chargers each on their own line to the motor controller and am using thicker wires than necessary. Less voltage drop, less heat this way, but not really necessary.
I put a charger in each side case. I think they are the same type you used to sell, but mine are not controlled by the canbus and drop totally out at 95% SOC--which I want anyway.
-Don- Reno, NV
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12 gauge wire will NOT handle 40 amps. Id not push more than 20 on it TBH.
You should always over rate it to be safe, all it takes is a connection getting loose over time / a bit of corrosion and hot spotting and now you oxidize the copper there and next thing you know you have melted insulation and a fire.
I wouldn't run anything less than 8 ga to be honest. Also,and this is just MY OPINION... thinner stranded wire tends to hold up over time better in a moving / heavy vibration environment I have seen over the years. It's more flexible and easier to handle bends, movements.
aaron
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If the connection is immediately split from the J1772 head you only need wiring that does 15 amps for each one. Every single line isn't pulling 40 amps, just the station's delivery system to your inlet. If it's immediately split then each charger only requests ~14 amps tops.
Would you say it’s safe to split off into 3 Anderson connectors from one inlet? Or should 2 be the max and then have another Y split from there? I’m asking because I just don’t know what best practices are (I haven’t done any electronics work outside of basic arduino stuff)
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Would you say it’s safe to split off into 3 Anderson connectors from one inlet? Or should 2 be the max and then have another Y split from there? I’m asking because I just don’t know what best practices are (I haven’t done any electronics work outside of basic arduino stuff)
As long as everything is below the current spec of the wires and connectors, do it any way you want. I have separate lines on each 50-amp Anderson going to the motor controller. I use 8AWG wires which is overkill for each 3.3 KW charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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If the connection is immediately split from the J1772 head you only need wiring that does 15 amps for each one. Every single line isn't pulling 40 amps, just the station's delivery system to your inlet. If it's immediately split then each charger only requests ~14 amps tops.
How much heat do these things put out without the TV heat sinks? I'm thinking about buying a large, long, aluminum heat sink to sandwich between them all (1.3 inch thick) if heat is going to be a problem. Is heat a big concern with these?
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If you're drawing 3300 watts at say 95% efficiency (optimistic!), then you get 165 watts of heat. The chargers can heat up to about 85*C before they back off power, so it takes a while to heat them up. On my bike that means about 30 to 40 minutes before they must reduce power. I don't have fans or proper heat sinks, and use active water cooling instead which is a PITA but weighs very little. My setup has the chargers in aluminum boxes like panniers, not under the battery. I suppose putting the chargers under the battery lets some of that heat soak into the battery, which keeps the chargers cooler but unevenly heats the battery. I've never tried that, though.
Bike build threads, with some details about my Diginow / TC chargers:
https://amytracker.wordpress.com/2021/08/09/2021-tat-building-a-zero-dsr-for-the-trans-america-trail/ (https://amytracker.wordpress.com/2021/08/09/2021-tat-building-a-zero-dsr-for-the-trans-america-trail/)
https://amytracker.wordpress.com/2022/06/26/2022-zero-dsr-mods-in-pursuit-of-more-electric-adventure-riding (https://amytracker.wordpress.com/2022/06/26/2022-zero-dsr-mods-in-pursuit-of-more-electric-adventure-riding)
Water cooling works well at campgrounds, because they have spigots next to the 50A sockets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKEQLPa_apQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKEQLPa_apQ)
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If you're drawing 3300 watts at say 95% efficiency (optimistic!), then you get 165 watts of heat. The chargers can heat up to about 85*C before they back off power, so it takes a while to heat them up. On my bike that means about 30 to 40 minutes before they must reduce power. I don't have fans or proper heat sinks, ...
Interesting. I could not see that on your pictures - did you remove the original fan and heat sink from the chargers?
I was thinking about trying the TC chargers without fan, in the hope that two of them would charge my 7.2 battery together with the 700W onboard charger @0.9C before the TCs would downrate thermally.
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If the connection is immediately split from the J1772 head you only need wiring that does 15 amps for each one. Every single line isn't pulling 40 amps, just the station's delivery system to your inlet. If it's immediately split then each charger only requests ~14 amps tops.
How much heat do these things put out without the TV heat sinks? I'm thinking about buying a large, long, aluminum heat sink to sandwich between them all (1.3 inch thick) if heat is going to be a problem. Is heat a big concern with these?
14 gauge wire would handle that...barely. id honestly do 12 gauge wire. given you are not running feet of it, it should handle 15 amps for a few hours easily w/o any heat issues. It's not horribly larger than the 14 either. Id personally run 10 ga but that's just me.
aaron
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If you're drawing 3300 watts at say 95% efficiency (optimistic!), then you get 165 watts of heat. The chargers can heat up to about 85*C before they back off power, so it takes a while to heat them up. On my bike that means about 30 to 40 minutes before they must reduce power. I don't have fans or proper heat sinks, ...
Interesting. I could not see that on your pictures - did you remove the original fan and heat sink from the chargers?
I was thinking about trying the TC chargers without fan, in the hope that two of them would charge my 7.2 battery together with the 700W onboard charger @0.9C before the TCs would downrate thermally.
Yes, I removed the heat sinks and fans both to save space, and for my application the fans would be destroyed quickly. At 0.9C you'd need maybe 75 minutes for a full charge, and the chargers would get hot around 35 minutes, so you'd get a half charge before they slow down. And they really do slow down: I've seen power drop from 3300W to 500W.
TC makes some water cooled models that would be interesting for packaging. You still have to reject all that heat to air, so ultimately you'll need something with fins and a fan. It can just be in a different location.
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Do you think sandwiching a 1 inch thick aluminum heat sink would prevent the chargers from slowing down? I was considering buying a large aftermarket heat sink from eBay and maybe putting some small server fans (12v) to cool them but I’m not sure it’s worth the extra effort. I’m not even sure where I would wire some 12v fans
Alternatively, it looks like there's a good inch gap between the charger's and the left and right side of the pan, so I could fit 6 PC fans on each side with vent holes.
But my new question is, are there any 12v lines I can tap into for fans?
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Ive noticed over time that Aluminum is GREAT for sucking up heat, but not so great for getting rid off it. You may buy a few minutes until they too heat up, then getting the heat out of the Al is going to be a booger.
They make 5 volt fans too, that run off USB ports and some of them can really kick, even at the 300 ma or whatever a standard usb puts out. Just a thought for alternative means since I know there are usb chargers hence a source of 5v on the bike.
It's a little more expensive but a copper sink (think computer scrap) might serve you a lot better. Put some thermal paste on it and it should work, but ALWAYS check that paste every few months, or few charges IMO, especially if you are pushing it !! It does dry out over time and nothing is crappier than walking into a fire because a fin was dry and a chip cooked off, and all the crap that was lodged in the fin, lint etc that you didn't clean out, caught because of the 800 degree's that hit it when uncle 'woof' came a visiting.
Ive ran bitcoin miners in the past and trust me, it's a spectacular sight when something sets off the fire alarm at 2 am in the morning, because a card cooked due to a frozen fan, dirty fin, heat sink to chip interface inadequate due to drying out etc etc. High power battery chargers are no different in this manner for the hazards.
aaron
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Problem is finding a large copper heat sink is pretty darn hard. I can find about 30 on ebay right now, but they're aluminum. Ideally I'd like a water block and do a radiator, but that's CNC and CAD work that I'm not trained in. So I'm sticking to what I know.
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If you have any junkyards around check them, or computer shops. Many computers, especially gaming ones have a lot of copper in their heat sinks, even if the outer fins are aluminum, if the core is copper that is still a plus for you. You should be able to get them for a few bucks tops, at best they are only getting a buck or so a pound for them as mixed metal.
Ive tie strapped some sinks on place before with ample thermo grease. no not the best or prettiest, but it worked. What about a peltier junction cooling? you got the power there, use some of it.
Aaron
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Yes, I removed the heat sinks and fans both to save space, and for my application the fans would be destroyed quickly. At 0.9C you'd need maybe 75 minutes for a full charge, and the chargers would get hot around 35 minutes, so you'd get a half charge before they slow down. And they really do slow down: I've seen power drop from 3300W to 500W.
TC makes some water cooled models that would be interesting for packaging. You still have to reject all that heat to air, so ultimately you'll need something with fins and a fan. It can just be in a different location.
TC allegedly stopped delivering the Gen3 3.3kW chargers, where the heat sink and fan can be easily removed. They now offer the smaller and lighter Gen4 https://www.tiechengcharger.com/products/tccharger-3.3kw-hk-mf-108-32-obc with the heat sink being part of the diecast housing. I might just try that without fan, just with natural (passive) convection, and not housed seperately (they are already IP67).
The watercooled units look even more compact, but don't have the opportunity for natural convection. I wouldn't like to create a heavy, bulky and complicated watercooling setup on the bike that shouldn't take longer than a good hour from 0-100% SoC.
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PC heat sinks aren't big enough. I'm looking for something larger. Like one giant block for all 3, or 3 individual blocks the same size. So that'd mean custom making one (gathering copper scrap, making a foundry, melting it down, making a mold and cast, etc...) whereas I see 4 aluminum heatsinks right now on ebay that might work.
I've also been looking at water blocks, maybe something 3x3" would work, but all I'm finding are GPU ad CPU heatsinks which are all weird shapes.
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researching peltier junction cooling now. Interesting stuff. Might be an option if I can find large sheets of that stuff.
Anyway, is there a 12v source I can tap into for fans?
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Yes, I removed the heat sinks and fans both to save space, and for my application the fans would be destroyed quickly. At 0.9C you'd need maybe 75 minutes for a full charge, and the chargers would get hot around 35 minutes, so you'd get a half charge before they slow down. And they really do slow down: I've seen power drop from 3300W to 500W.
TC makes some water cooled models that would be interesting for packaging. You still have to reject all that heat to air, so ultimately you'll need something with fins and a fan. It can just be in a different location.
TC allegedly stopped delivering the Gen3 3.3kW chargers, where the heat sink and fan can be easily removed. They now offer the smaller and lighter Gen4 https://www.tiechengcharger.com/products/tccharger-3.3kw-hk-mf-108-32-obc with the heat sink being part of the diecast housing. I might just try that without fan, just with natural (passive) convection, and not housed seperately (they are already IP67).
The watercooled units look even more compact, but don't have the opportunity for natural convection. I wouldn't like to create a heavy, bulky and complicated watercooling setup on the bike that shouldn't take longer than a good hour from 0-100% SoC.
Why not leave the fan on and point it downward from the pan? Cut some holes in the bottom to allow the air to escape.
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A peltier device is good if you want to cool something below ambient, and want it to be compact and have no moving parts. They are not very efficient. You also still need a very large heat sink for it to reject heat to air. Since the TC chargers work at up to 85C, they are well above ambient temp and a simple heat sink is plenty. Peltier devices will just suck power, add cost, and not help anything.
Also, you can't just soak heat into a block of material; you have to transfer that heat to the air. A 400W loss as heat for 1.25 hours is 0.5 kWh of heat, or 1,800,000 J. If you were just heating up a mass of material from 35C to 85C, you'd need this much:
Water 8.6 kg
Aluminum 40.4 kg
Copper 92.3 kg
The TC chargers have built-in thermal protection, so even if the heat sink gets loose or the fan fails, they won't catch fire.
TL;DR is that you have to move that heat into the ambient air. The simple way is with some aluminum fins and a fan, as TC does. TC uses a fan because it's needed to get the convection coefficient high enough. If you take the fan off, you'll be thermally limited in 30 to 45 minutes. You could do without a fan, if you made the heat sink something like 10x larger than the one with a fan.
Or do something kinda dumb like me and transfer the heat to water and dump it on the ground. It actually takes less water than in the above calcs because of evaporation sucking up a lot of heat.
Energicas have an oil cooling loop for the motor, controller, and now for the Experia the loop includes the AC charger. (as I understand it from reading about it a bit - not an owner). This is probably the path forward since one cooling system can be used all the time, whether riding or charging. Not much help for you, though.
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IM glad they put the cooling loop on the AC charger, it's a HUGE step in the right direction.
Id love to see the built in AC charger be able to take 40 amps or so. Imagine having 6k, 8, even 10k AC charge available! The plug is a standard range plug so it's not something that would be very unique. you could AC charge your bike in an hour or so, that'd be pretty near a game changer IMO. No Bullshit with waah my CCS won't talk to this or that, if you can throw 40 -50 amps of 240 AC at it, and get your bike from 20 percent to 80 percent in around an hour, that's golden.
With water cooling the charger can easily handle it too. Why don't they use the bikes inverter to charge the bike? It does this on regen anyways, takes the AC from the motor turns to DC and puts back into battery. Disable a few relays and just take 240 AC from the wall and rectify it back into the battery. It's already got the water cooling in place, id think it'd be doable and possibly even shave a few pounds off the bike for the weight of the charger equip.
Just thinking out loud... yah I know, it's an annoying habit of mine :D
Aaron
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IM glad they put the cooling loop on the AC charger, it's a HUGE step in the right direction.
Id love to see the built in AC charger be able to take 40 amps or so. Imagine having 6k, 8, even 10k AC charge available! The plug is a standard range plug so it's not something that would be very unique. you could AC charge your bike in an hour or so, that'd be pretty near a game changer IMO. No Bullshit with waah my CCS won't talk to this or that, if you can throw 40 -50 amps of 240 AC at it, and get your bike from 20 percent to 80 percent in around an hour, that's golden.
With water cooling the charger can easily handle it too. Why don't they use the bikes inverter to charge the bike? It does this on regen anyways, takes the AC from the motor turns to DC and puts back into battery. Disable a few relays and just take 240 AC from the wall and rectify it back into the battery. It's already got the water cooling in place, id think it'd be doable and possibly even shave a few pounds off the bike for the weight of the charger equip.
Just thinking out loud... yah I know, it's an annoying habit of mine :D
Aaron
I charge my 2017 Zero SR at 8KW (~33 amps @240 VAC). The downside is I need to have an external charger in each of the sidecases.
-Don- Reno, NV
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so you are converting it to dc outside the bike and charging it, not plugging 240 into the bike, like the Ribelle does and having the bikes charger convert it for you correct?
Aaron
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so you are converting it to dc outside the bike and charging it, not plugging 240 into the bike, like the Ribelle does and having the bikes charger convert it for you correct?
Aaron
I do both, as I also use the OBC with AC in and the other two chargers with DC into the bike (to the battery contacts on the motor controller). Each DC charger is 3.3 KW and the bike is around 1.3 KW, so around 7.8 KW total if the AC voltage stays up under load.
I often need to hog up two J-1772s to get the full 7.8 KW, but I can also charge at less by not using the OBC or removing one of the external chargers or whatever I need to do since my system ignores the control pilot signal.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Why don't they use the bikes inverter to charge the bike?
I've also thought about this, and the various manufacturers surely have as well. One reason we haven't seen it, at least with earlier bikes, is that both the motor controllers and chargers were more general-purpose devices made by outside vendors. Putting it all in one would be a custom design and require expensive R&D. Another possibility is that someone, somewhere is sitting on a patent to do this (but I haven't looked).
The other way to look at it is that DCFC is going to take over and be in every town and along every highway, so why spend a lot of money optimizing for AC charging that will never be all that fast?
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DCFC is not going to be mainstream ANYWHERE fast for at least a decade maybe more. If the amount of cars on the road gets to the point where they think this is feasible, then we are going to have bigger problems when people are charging up at night, and the grid can not handle the extra load, and / or generation is not up to snuff on a cold night.
Look at Moronafornia, and the idiots in Texas who did NOT learn from Mfornia's mistakes, as a perfect example. BIG push to put everyone on solar roofs, only they didn't get batteries, so anytime the grid farts hiccups or burps, all that solar goes into rapid shutdown and is useless until power is stable again for 5 minutes. Then they can't even keep their lights on as it is, yet they want gigawatts of electric cars charging? How is that going to work? They already told people, well, we don't want you charging your car, we don't have the power. With everything internet connected, I give it two years tops before those Nazi's mandate something where they can remotely disable your car / bike charging etc to make you 'comply'. Sorry boss, can't come into work, my electric car is dead and I can't get it charged anywhere. I had power in it but they took it overnight to keep my neighbors lights on for him.
Attempting to force people to comply by telling them, well you can only charge between these hours, or we will charge you stupid rates, is only going to piss people off. I charge at 8 pm because thats when I get home from work, I don't have a CHOICE !! to charge up at noon. Oh no problem, that 30K bike, just spend another 30k on a 30kw battery pack, charge it at noon then plug in when you get home. oh don't forget the other 5k for the charger and electrician to hook it up, oh and the permit, environmental fees, bla bla bla. NO incentive to get that bike now is there?
The unicorn farts and rainbow crowd need to wake up as to the realities of their perfect little green world.
Solar is NOT the solution to all our problems.
Wind only works in a very few areas.
Gas is nice but the gas transmission infrastructure is pretty much at max cap as it is, build new plants but can't get gas to run them ain't gonna work well. Everytime they try to lay new lines, the same fools lock it up in court for years and years, oh the scandanavian sea serpent tail snail lives there!! you can't disturb it!!
Nukes, havent had a new one in YEARS, the one in georgia was supposed to have been online 4 or 5 years ago now, but is STILL playing games trying to get it going.
Even if tomorrow our genius' came up with a cheap car, cheap battery, everyone who can afford ice can afford this.. the power grid is not ready to support it all yet.
Aaron
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Energicas have an oil cooling loop for the motor, controller, and now for the Experia the loop includes the AC charger. (as I understand it from reading about it a bit - not an owner). This is probably the path forward since one cooling system can be used all the time, whether riding or charging. Not much help for you, though.
ABSOLUTELY MINOR correction I wanted to just add here. The cooling loop for the motor/controller/AC charger is water/glycol. Basically antifreeze. There is a small bath of ATF that cools the gear reduction, so that's the only oil cooling on the bikes as it were. Other than that really solid info.
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The Renault Zoe uses the inverter to charge. It's rare and it might be patented.
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Energicas have an oil cooling loop for the motor, controller, and now for the Experia the loop includes the AC charger. (as I understand it from reading about it a bit - not an owner). This is probably the path forward since one cooling system can be used all the time, whether riding or charging. Not much help for you, though.
ABSOLUTELY MINOR correction I wanted to just add here. The cooling loop for the motor/controller/AC charger is water/glycol. Basically antifreeze. There is a small bath of ATF that cools the gear reduction, so that's the only oil cooling on the bikes as it were. Other than that really solid info.
Thanks for the correction. I know I read somewhere about them using an oil cooling loop, so I was repeating BS. I just figured it was an eccentric choice to use oil, maybe for electrical insulation. Energica's equivalent of desmo valves.
The Renault Zoe uses the inverter to charge. It's rare and it might be patented.
Interesting. I found this about the Zoe power electronics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8
I have to say, it is a lot more compact than my DSR's motor controller plus 4 TC chargers.
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MVetter, while I have your attention:
The TC chargers like used in your Diginow product are rated for an input voltage of 90 to 265 VAC (from the user manual). As they are switched-mode power supplies, it's at least possible they could work on a 250 VDC input as well. Do you know if this is feasible?
Would be neat to take a CCS station and tell it to output 250V, then step it down to Zero pack voltage with TC chargers.
Related - does anyone know of an open-source vehicle side implementation of the CCS protocol?
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They act as DC-DC converters and, as a rule of thumb, you can generally run double the rated AC input voltage. Generally. We did explode one at 400vdc input.
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They act as DC-DC converters and, as a rule of thumb, you can generally run double the rated AC input voltage. Generally. We did explode one at 400vdc input.
Thanks for confirming that. I'm sure you did the math, but for those following along: They're rated 265 VAC and that's RMS, so 265 * sqrt(2) is 375 V peak.