ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: Specter on January 28, 2023, 06:34:32 AM
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Looking at charging options for my 2023 Ribelle. What comes with the bike is a standard 'wall switch' is what it really is, with the plug of your choice on it and a few feet / meters of cord. Now of course you can change the plug configuration to plug into whatever is on the wall.
What about the versatility of the charger itself though?
The charger is a 3 KW charger. ok we get that.
NOW..... the input is either 120 volt or 240 volt AC whatever you plug it into it sees and does what it needs to convert and charge.
With THAT being said, how sensitive IS it to the AC input voltage and current?
What if I had 277 volts, would that be too high for it,
what if I hooked it to only 208 volts, would it still charge, only slightly less power?
what if I hooked it to 177 volts? or even down to say 85 volts. would it still function and charge at whatever comes of it?
How sensitive to frequency is it?
What if I hooked it to 50 Hz, that should still work I believe.
what if i hit it with 47 Hz or even 20 Hz like an old bell generator?
would it still gobble the juice and charge or reject?
and finally the 115 volt,
what if I hooked it to 115 volt at say 35 amps like hardwiring it to an inverter 3.6Kw at 115 volt
Would it still be able to hit it's limit of 3K?
Is the chargers internals capable of handling 30amp plus on the Inlet side? or just 15 amp or so?
In a happy world, the answer would be, yes aaron it's just a rectification circuit, it don't care about any of that cause it's just
going into a battery.
But I need 'real' world answers here so I don't doink something up.
Although the charger may have a lot of swing in the volt / hz on the input size, how about max amps? Because with the standard plugs offered, it seems 15 Amp is about the tops.
Thank you
Aaron
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Looking at charging options for my 2023 Ribelle. What comes with the bike is a standard 'wall switch' is what it really is, with the plug of your choice on it and a few feet / meters of cord. Now of course you can change the plug configuration to plug into whatever is on the wall.
What about the versatility of the charger itself though?
The charger is a 3 KW charger. ok we get that.
NOW..... the input is either 120 volt or 240 volt AC whatever you plug it into it sees and does what it needs to convert and charge.
With THAT being said, how sensitive IS it to the AC input voltage and current?
What if I had 277 volts, would that be too high for it,
Maybe, that I wouldn't chance. Most EV chargers are okay with around 90 to 260 VAC input. You're a bit higher at 277 VAC than what most are esigned for.
what if I hooked it to only 208 volts, would it still charge, only slightly less power?
what if I hooked it to 177 volts? or even down to say 85 volts. would it still function and charge at whatever comes of it?
I would assume 177 VAC would be okay. EV chargers are switching power supplies and usually are not that picky about stuff such as frequency or voltages being their minimum and max ratings. Less voltage yes, the power will drop, unlike on a Zero (different design) if the voltage is lowered.How sensitive to frequency is it?
What if I hooked it to 50 Hz, that should still work I believe.
what if i hit it with 47 Hz or even 20 Hz like an old bell generator?
would it still gobble the juice and charge or reject?
I am sure 47 or 50 hz will be fine. Not as sure about 20 hz. Depends on the design. and finally the 115 volt,
what if I hooked it to 115 volt at say 35 amps like hardwiring it to an inverter 3.6Kw at 115 volt
Would it still be able to hit it's limit of 3K?
A supply of even a billion amps will be fine. It will do nothing at all. How much current it will draw is one thing. The current of the AC supply is just its max capacity which the charger in the bike will never see anything near.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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@DonTom
Thank you for the reply.
What I am concerned with is, you can charge it at 120 volt, up to I think it is 14 or 15 amps, which is what that specific design of plug is rated to, and get XXX watts out of it,..what ever the conditions make it out to be. You can charge it at 240 volts, at 14.xxx amps ie. 15 amps, to get your 3 KW which is it's max.
My point of concern, the voltage can swing all over by design it seems, but for amps, the most it 'appears' to want to see on the input side is 15 amps. If I go plugging it into an inverter that spits out 115 volt but can deliver 30 or 40 amps, can the bikes charger take it? How many amps can it safely handle on the input side of it? Can I tell it, charge at 30 amps and it knows enough to say, ok at 120 volt, that's below my 3k range so ok?
Thank you for your replies folks, they ARE appreciated as I am trying to learn all I can here !
Aaron
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@DonTom
Thank you for the reply.
What I am concerned with is, you can charge it at 120 volt, up to I think it is 14 or 15 amps, which is what that specific design of plug is rated to, and get XXX watts out of it,..what ever the conditions make it out to be. You can charge it at 240 volts, at 14.xxx amps ie. 15 amps, to get your 3 KW which is it's max.
My point of concern, the voltage can swing all over by design it seems, but for amps, the most it 'appears' to want to see on the input side is 15 amps. If I go plugging it into an inverter that spits out 115 volt but can deliver 30 or 40 amps, can the bikes charger take it? How many amps can it safely handle on the input side of it? Can I tell it, charge at 30 amps and it knows enough to say, ok at 120 volt, that's below my 3k range so ok?
Thank you for your replies folks, they ARE appreciated as I am trying to learn all I can here !
Aaron
What Don Tom said....the available charge supply current is basically irrelevant, (can litterally/hypothetically be millions of amps), as long as it's at least the 15amps specified. The bike's charging system will only draw as much as it needs.
Smithy.
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@DonTom
Thank you for the reply.
What I am concerned with is, you can charge it at 120 volt, up to I think it is 14 or 15 amps, which is what that specific design of plug is rated to, and get XXX watts out of it,..what ever the conditions make it out to be. You can charge it at 240 volts, at 14.xxx amps ie. 15 amps, to get your 3 KW which is it's max.
My point of concern, the voltage can swing all over by design it seems, but for amps, the most it 'appears' to want to see on the input side is 15 amps. If I go plugging it into an inverter that spits out 115 volt but can deliver 30 or 40 amps, can the bikes charger take it? How many amps can it safely handle on the input side of it? Can I tell it, charge at 30 amps and it knows enough to say, ok at 120 volt, that's below my 3k range so ok?
Thank you for your replies folks, they ARE appreciated as I am trying to learn all I can here !
Aaron
I am not real sure what you're asking, but I will explain a few things here that could help.
On 120 VAC the Energica will draw around 13 amps max. 120VAC times 13 amps equals 1,560 watts. About half the power of the charger max rating.
If the voltage is doubled into the same load the current will also double and that means four times the wattage is what you will NORMALLY get. But EV chargers are far from "normal" designs.
That would "normally" be 240VAC times 26 amps which is 6,240 watts. That would "normally" blow out the 3KW charger in the Energicas as the unused 3 KW would be in heat (you cannot destroy energy, can only change it). But these chargers do very tricky stuff. Their special design allows the current to NOT go up with the voltage so you end up with 240VAC at 13 amps which is 3120 watts, or the same power as your Energica Charger. Zeros (S, DS, SR, etc,) are even more tricky, as they need the current to go DOWN as the voltage goes up so the power stays the same and will not go over around 1.3 KWs in the OBC.
So as you can see, normal Ohm's Law usage does not SEEM to apply to EV internal (AC input) chargers and that can confuse people. It really still does apply, EV chargers simply have an electronic stage to reduce input load so current will not increase as much as normal so you do not get wattage higher than the charger in the bike can handle.
-Don- Turlock, CA (on an RV trip)
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If you have a 110 and a 220 power source and use the on board charger for level 1, 110 with charge at about half the rate as 220, all at level 1.
The 110 will be at around 1kW and the 220 at around 3 kW ?
"On 120 VAC the Energica will draw around 13 amps max. 120VAC times 13 amps equals 1,560 watts. About half the power of the charger max rating.
If the voltage is doubled into the same load the current will also double and that means four times the wattage is what you will NORMALLY get. But EV chargers are far from "normal" designs.
That would "normally" be 240VAC times 26 amps which is 6,240 watts. That would "normally" blow out the 3KW charger in the Energicas as the unused 3 KW would be in heat (you cannot destroy energy, can only change it). But these chargers do very tricky stuff. Their special design allows the current to NOT go up with the voltage so you end up with 240VAC at 13 amps which is 3120 watts, or the same power as your Energica Charger."
If you have a 220v option, going to level 2 would be an option. What charger device would be the best option to allow for faster charging? Something like a home chargepoint or juicebox setup?
Are those correct assumptions?
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I had an extra 240v line run in my garage when I bought my first Energica and I’m using a Siemens 240v EVSE but a ChargePoint or Juicebox would likely work just as well. I use that Siemens unit now for my Ribelle (when actively using it - I use a 120v EVSE for LPR mode), Chevy Bolt, and Tesla Model Y.
Just have good 240v outlet and a decent EVSE and you should be good to go. No need to spend more than $500 for a decent EVSE and you can probably get away with less these days.
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^ Awesome. Thanks
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You all seem very knowledgeable about this, but just allow me to comment for any future layman like me who reads this.
I spoke to three Electricians about maximum charging. What they warned me about is not to fully use the Amperes noted on the fuse in your household‘s fusebox.
In my case it’s 220-240V and 16 Ampere.
The 16 Ampere are just for short-time use, not for hourslong charging. Otherwise the cabling in the walls could overheat and could cause a fire risk, especially in older houses.
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If you have a 220v option, going to level 2 would be an option. What charger device would be the best option to allow for faster charging? Something like a home chargepoint or juicebox setup?
Are those correct assumptions?
It really makes no difference. The charge rate is the rating of the charger in your bike. 120 VAC will give you 1.5 KW and 240 VAC will give you 3 KWs. What you use to get it into the bike makes no difference at all as long as it can handle 13 amps at 120 VAC which is 1,560 watts or 13 amps at 240 VAC which is 3,120 watts.
To get more power at 120 VAC is not really possible without overloading the 120 VAC outlet. To get more power at 240 VAC, you would have to change the charger in the bike itself and there is no practical way to do such. With AC input charging, there is not anything else you can do.
So you're stuck with 1,500 watts with 120 VAC and stuck with 3,000 watts max with 240 VAC.
CCS does not use the charger inside the bike, it goes direct to the battery and those are real DC chargers and can have MUCH more power to charge, around 25,000 watts. You're much more limited at home.
-Don- Turlock, CA (RV trip)
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^^^ Very clear now. Thanks!
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Set me straight about terminology:
Level 1 A/C charging is 110 v producing about 1.5 kW from on board charger
Level 2 A/C charging is 220v producing about 3k W from on board charger
Is that correct?
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Set me straight about terminology:
Level 1 A/C charging is 110 v producing about 1.5 kW from on board charger
Level 2 A/C charging is 220v producing about 3k W from on board charger
Is that correct?
Yep. But it's really closer to 120 and 240 VAC in the real world these days.
-Don- Turlock, CA
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^^ Excellent. Thank you.
I found this writeup helpful.
https://australianelectricmotorco.com/how-to-guides/how-to-charge-energica-ego/
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Just had this texting conversation with (Stefano) at Energica. He answers almost immediately and on a Sunday!
Something like this, I suppose:
https://www.amazon.com/MEGEAR-100-240V-Portable-Electric-Charging/dp/B075GJK2S9
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I would say the first line from Stefano is confusing as 110VAC at 20 amps will be 2,200 watts (volts times amps= watts). Also, 20 amps is above the norm as most AC plugs are rated at 15 amps. Also, the voltage is usually 120 VAC, not 110. It is often called "110" because it started with that a very long time ago. More than 75 years ago! Just like a 2 by 4 piece of wood no longer measures 2" by 4".
Typical level one charging is 120 VAC @ 13 amps which is 1,560 watts ac input. Often a little less.
10% less in DC watts (power) to the battery (about 10% in heat losses from the conversion to DC) so that is a charge to the battery of 1,404 watts. You won't see more than that, but often a little less. Such as Zero's OBC of 1,300 watts DC to the battery. I would NOT expect Level one to be any higher on an Energica than a Zero or even on a Tesla or other EV.
-Don- Wasco, CA
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Received this email from Energica:
Energica has now chosen to move to a single charger option, which includes both a combination Level-1 / Level-2 capability. ...
This means, it will work with both a standard 120V NEMA 5-15 home outlet, as well as a 240v NEMA 6-20 outlet.
When charging via your standard household outlet commonly referred to as a 110 outlet, your bike will charge at a rate of 1-kWh.
However, if you have a 240v outlet in your home, commonly referred to as a 220, your bike can charge from the same charger at up to 3-kWh.
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Received this email from Energica:
Energica has now chosen to move to a single charger option, which includes both a combination Level-1 / Level-2 capability. ...
This means, it will work with both a standard 120V NEMA 5-15 home outlet, as well as a 240v NEMA 6-20 outlet.
When charging via your standard household outlet commonly referred to as a 110 outlet, your bike will charge at a rate of 1-kWh.
However, if you have a 240v outlet in your home, commonly referred to as a 220, your bike can charge from the same charger at up to 3-kWh.
??? What has changed?
-Don- Wasco, CA
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The one I got from Energica earlier this month came with a NEMA 14-50
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Please excuse the new-to EV's question here: In preparation for my Experia (my first EV), I had a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed in my garage (200A service to the house, 100A to garage). Do I still need to purchase an EVSE?
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Please excuse the new-to EV's question here: In preparation for my Experia (my first EV), I had a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed in my garage (200A service to the house, 100A to garage). Do I still need to purchase an EVSE?
EVSE means Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
Your Experia (Congratulation BTW! ) should come with an EVSE that you will plug into your available power and it will supply the bike.
Reach out to Energica or your dealer to find out exactly which one they are sending.
Something like this:
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Thanks much! That explains the situation. The outlet I installed was based on a selection that Tom Huff sent me when I ordered it.
Have a great day.
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Please excuse the new-to EV's question here: In preparation for my Experia (my first EV), I had a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed in my garage (200A service to the house, 100A to garage). Do I still need to purchase an EVSE?
Just be sure the "granny cable" you get is 240 VAC with a 14-50P.
-Don- Salton Sea SRA, CA
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This is the one that came with my Rebelle:
https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B08KNWPRWJ
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This is the one that came with my Rebelle:
https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B08KNWPRWJ (https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B08KNWPRWJ)
To plug into a 14-50R, you will need something like this. (https://www.lowes.com/pd/AC-WORKS-NEMA-14-50P-50A-4-Prong-Plug-to-NEMA-6-20R-15-20A-250V-T-Blade-Connector/5013206821?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-elc-_-bng-_-PLA_ELC_205_Wiring-Devices-Cords-Fire-_-5013206821-_-Online-_-0-_-0&gclid=fab6d387fe0b199545cfb05ce3d6770a&gclsrc=3p.ds&ds_rl=1286981&msclkid=fab6d387fe0b199545cfb05ce3d6770a)
-Don- Salton Sea SRA, CA
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You all completely just grabbed like one tidbit of what I said and ran off on a tangent with it.
WE KNOW what the rating of a 115 volt plug is amp wise.
Lets pretend I had some magic wire that could handle as many amps as I could put thru it.
Once I got the 120 volts to the bike...
If I was able to supply 120 volts at 25 amps to the bike, can it's internal AC charger handle 25 amps of input current?
Can it take 25 amps in or is 13 amps the max it will let you put into it.
Aaron
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Also let me answer the what changed question.
They have combo plugs out now that have an adapter on it. It has the male end you specify when you order for the 220 volt, but it also comes with a pigtail that has a female of that end and a male 115 volt plug on it. if you got 220 volt you plug it in directly, if you only have a 115 available then you put the pigtail on and plug it into the 115 outlet. Makes it nice for those who may carry a cord with them on rides, if you can't find a 220 at the bar to plug into, you can still grab a little juice off a 115 outlet.
Aaron
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If I was able to supply 120 volts at 25 amps to the bike, can it's internal AC charger handle 25 amps of input current?
Can it take 25 amps in or is 13 amps the max it will let you put into it.
Aaron
25 amps at 240 VAC is 6,000 watts. The 3KW charger will not draw more than 13 amps on either 240 VAC or with 120 VAC.
-Don- Salton Sea SRA, CA