ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: DonTom on November 21, 2022, 03:41:57 AM
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I have been away from the bike for a couple of weeks, but I had the bike in the LPR mode, connected up to my Tesla-Tap and Tesla Wall Connector. In just now removed the Tesal-Tap and decided to turn the bike on. Nothing. Same as being keyed off, when keyed on. No difference at all. Also, won't charge or do anything at all.
That means I also do not know for sure if it has been charging or not while I was gone.
It's been very cold here while I was gone, well below 0°C. Overnight lows have been around 10°F/-12C if that has anything to do with it. But it is +39°F (which is around 3.9°C) right now.
So where is a good place to start to figure what is wrong? Or what should I do?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Overnight lows have been around 10°F/-12C if that has anything to do with it. But it is +39°F (which is also around 39°C) right now.
So where is a good place to start to figure what is wrong? Or what should I do?
-Don- Reno, NV
Umm...39F isn't 39C BTW..! 39C is 102.2F. Methinks you mean 3.9C..yes.??
Any power at the USB port..?? Or are they ignition-on switched..??
Smithy.
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Overnight lows have been around 10°F/-12C if that has anything to do with it. But it is +39°F (which is also around 39°C) right now.
So where is a good place to start to figure what is wrong? Or what should I do?
-Don- Reno, NV
Umm...39F isn't 39C BTW..! 39C is 102.2F. Methinks you mean 3.9C..yes.??
Any power at the USB port..?? Or are they ignition-on switched..??
Smithy.
I wonder how I missed the decimal. Yeah, I mean 3.9C. I just edited that message.
No power anywhere at all. Yes, they are also normally powered by the ignition switch. On the Energica, when the bike is off, it's off. I have to check where it gets its power for the ignition switch to turn the bike on. But with my SS9- right now, the key on or key out is no difference anywhere at all.
And whatever changed was when I was 100 miles away from the bike. The only thing I can think of is how Reno went from summer hot to winter cold overnight and stayed that way with no moderate days at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I wonder how I missed the decimal. Yeah, I mean 3.9C. I just edited that message.
No power anywhere at all. Yes, they are also normally powered by the ignition switch. On the Energica, when the bike is off, it's off. I have to check where it gets its power for the ignition switch to turn the bike on. But with my SS9- right now, the key on or key out is no difference anywhere at all.
And whatever changed was when I was 100 miles away from the bike. The only thing I can think of is how Reno went from summer hot to winter cold overnight and stayed that way with no moderate days at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
Lithium batteries should still have some life left, even after a few months. I have an old Lithium motorcycle battery which has stood unused and uncharged for over 5 years, I pulled it off the shelf over the weekend... and it still shows 12.2v. They normally have a standing voltage of ~13.2v.
I believe your SS9 may have a poorly main fuse/connection or something simple/silly has happened. A battery that size doesn't loose everything. Checking the power supply "to the ignition switch" certainly sounds a good idea. Failing that, is there something in the BCM which could have failed.??
Smithy.
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I wonder how I missed the decimal. Yeah, I mean 3.9C. I just edited that message.
Lithium batteries should still have some life left, even after a few months. I have an old Lithium motorcycle battery which has stood unused and uncharged for over 5 years, I pulled it off the shelf over the weekend... and it still shows 12.2v. They normally have a standing voltage of ~13.2v.
I believe your SS9 may have a poorly main fuse/connection or something simple/silly has happened. A battery that size doesn't loose everything. Checking the power supply "to the ignition switch" certainly sounds a good idea. Failing that, is there something in the BCM which could have failed.??
Smithy.
That depends. Teslas draw a lot of current when just sitting with their 70 KWH battery. In fact, my Tesla was at 0SOC when I got back here after a couple of weeks. I do not remember what SOC I left it at, but it but I never let it get below 100 miles range left--until then. Before I left, I plugged in the Energica (LPR mode) but not the Tesla. I think I should have done the opposite. The Energica I think is totally off when it's off. But I have no idea where they get the voltage to turn on the bike via the key.
Anyway, I removed the Telsa Wall Connector with Tesla-Tap from the bike and plugged in the Tesla as soon as I got home. The Telsa seems to be fine, all charged back up to 70%.
Perhaps the Energica is charged up to the 83% or so that I normally get in the LPR mode. Perhaps that can explain why it doesn't charge. Perhaps it is already charged. No way for me to tell. But when I plug in, I get no sounds, nothing changes. Not on my Tesla Wall Connector or on the bike. Just as if I did not plug in at all.
Same with the key on or off, no change at all.
I kinda doubt a connection issue as the bike has not moved an inch.
I don't think it could be a key or an immobilizer issue, but not sure. Won't the screen still light up with a key that is not programmed? I have never tried that. My other key is 100 miles / 161 km away--the one I can program other keys with--if the bike would turn on.
I somehow expect the extra cold weather here had something to do with it. Perhaps it tried to charge up in the LPR mode when it was way too cold. I really have no idea what or where the problem could be as I don't know where the key switch gets its power from.
No schematic in the PDF workshop manual.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It looks like I found the problem. There is a well-hidden 315 ma inline fuse, somewhat difficult to get to, hidden behind the inverter. I have no idea what this fuse does.
I took the fuse out and it looked perfect by eye. No trace of a problem. I was very disappointed!
But I decided to measure it anyway. Totally open!!! Infinite resistance!
The fact that it looks good by eye is an indication that there are no shorts, just a broken fuse wire. Perhaps because of the big overnight change in temps here in Reno, from hot summer to cold winter overnight a couple of week ago.
I will post some photos later. I am now going to check to see if I have such a fuse laying around and if not, I will order a bunch of them.
BTW, I don't think this fuse is even mentioned in the manuals. I found it on my own just checking things out. Photos will be coming soon along with an update.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I could only find larger one-amp fuses, so I held one in for a quick test, bike now is normal. No errors or anything. Screen says battery is at 82% SOC and is in the LPR mode.
This is an important fuse in a very stupid and difficult to get to location. I will change that before I ride the bike again.
This fuse could have broke while I was riding! I was lucky it happened when I was 100 miles away from the bike with the bike off (but charging in the LPR mode).
I have the correct fuse on order. A ordered a bunch of them.
Notice how the bad fuse looks good.
Here is the fuse and location:
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This will show the location a bit better. In the previous message look for the in-line fuse holder that looks like this:
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, I am relieved to hear that your bike is running again!
My first thought was, it's a software glitch. A faulty fuse would have been last on my list.
Congratulations to your detective work!
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Don, I am relieved to hear that your bike is running again!
My first thought was, it's a software glitch. A faulty fuse would have been last on my list.
Congratulations to your detective work!
I didn't know what to expect, but I decided to check what I could. I spent a couple of hours on the bike before I even noticed the in-line fuse. And I wasn't even sure what it was when I first looked at it. But I decided to check it out, which was more difficult than it sounds because of the way they had it tie-wrapped in. It was difficult to get to just to cut the ties and the fuse holder was on the other side of the cable and didn't easily get moved to the opposite side (very little clearance) where I had more lead length on the fuse holder. It was as if Energica wanted to make it difficult to get to that fuse.
I first looked at the ignition switch. It doesn't seem to be a simple switch. Six wires, all infinite resistance to the others. It must be an electronic switch of some type. I had no way to test it, so I just looked at other areas when I noticed the thingy that kinda looked like an in-line fuse holder--and that was exactly what it was.
I didn't even look at the bike until tonight. Just a couple of hours work total including time wasted checking other things like the ignition switch cable and connectors. It ends up in a harness where it would be difficult to see where it goes from there.
I didn't notice the in-line fuse right away, and even when I did, I wasn't sure if it was a fuse holder or what it was. It was strapped down in a way that made it a bit difficult. I decided to cut the strap for a closer look, and I am sure glad I did.
-Don- Reno, NV
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315 ma inline fuse,
Glad that you fix it. Just curious what is the voltage of the fuse, and it's a slow or a fast one?
Tom
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Glad that you fix it. Just curious what is the voltage of the fuse, and it's a slow or a fast one?
It's this fuse here. (https://www.amazon.com/Techman-5-315mA-0-315A-Glass-Acting/dp/B074LB6B87)
Techman - Pack of 5-315mA (0.315A) Glass Fuse (GMA), 250v, 5mm x 20mm (3/16" X 3/4") Fast Blow (Fast Acting).
If you mean the actual voltage on the fuse, I didn't bother to check. But it's very low current and on a very thin wire. It's designed to blow at 315ma, so we know it has to be even less current than that. I have no idea what this fuse protects, I am hoping the Energica Service Manger will chime in and let us know. It goes into a harness, so it really cannot be easily followed.
It looks like I came up with an easy simple idea for a new location to get to this fuse.
When I put the bike back togeter later in the day I will post a photo of what I did.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Other than waiting for the new fuses, I have the bike all back together.
Moving the stock fuse holder was a lot easier and neater than I expected. I did NOT need to add wire or change anything.
Can you see the tie wrap in the first photo?
If I pull it out, I then have more than enough room to replace the fuse even if I am on the road at the time.
With such low current fuses, they are probably more likely to break, as mine did, than to blow out from excessive current.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The way you cannot even see the fuse holder reminds me of this:
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Glad you figured out what was wrong Don. Thanks for the info. I put my Ribelle into LPR a couple of weeks ago since I decided to commute on my RT while the weather is cold. I'll turn it on during this holiday weekend just to make sure everything is okay. I have it plugged into 120v since I don't use that charger for anything else. Hopefully everything will check out fine when I power it up.
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Great info Don....hopefully will help others with similar issues.
Smithy.
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Glad you figured out what was wrong Don. Thanks for the info. I put my Ribelle into LPR a couple of weeks ago since I decided to commute on my RT while the weather is cold. I'll turn it on during this holiday weekend just to make sure everything is okay. I have it plugged into 120v since I don't use that charger for anything else. Hopefully everything will check out fine when I power it up.
It's hard to say when the fuse broke, but I assume I would have had the same problem if the bike was just sitting there completely off. The fuse didn't blow, it internally broke just by sitting there. I assume the weather extreme here in Reno where we went from a hot summer day to a cold winter day overnight is what did it. Metal expansion on the fuse element. The bike was as fully charged as it could charge in the LPR mode, so I assume the bike was NOT charging when the fuse element broke. 315ma is a very thin wire element inside the fuse. Or perhaps it became unsoldered at one of the ends. But when I look inside the fuse with a magnifier, it looks like a perfectly good fuse on each end. So I guess I will never know.
Or will I? Hold on, I am going to break the fuse in the center of the glass right now.
Okay, it looks like these very low current fuses are NOT soldered to the ends, they are crimped. I can see the side it is disconnected from right at the end. It looks like the fuse element came out of the crimp. I would say it's a broken fuse and probably had nothing to do with the bike charging.
I now see that these very low current fuses are designed differently inside. I see now why they cost a bit more. More than a buck each is expensive for such a fuse.
The good end of the fuse element still holds strong. Manufacturing defect on the open side of the fuse?
-Don- Reno, NV
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That looks like a manufacturing defect to me.
Even with production under cleanroom conditions you still have a (albeit very low) fault quota. So to speak, you won the lottery ::)
I am still amazed you found the cause for the fault, with just your eyes, a multimeter and common sense. You earn a reward for that! ;D
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That looks like a manufacturing defect to me.
Even with production under cleanroom conditions you still have a (albeit very low) fault quota. So to speak, you won the lottery ::)
Yeah, I think so too. I see two possibilities:
1.The fuse element was too tight, so even a change in weather can make it break.
2. The element wasn't crimped down correctly on one side.
I would say the evidence points to number 2. I say that because the element was broken at the very end, probably just fell out. I suppose it could still be weather related, but there has to be more than just that.
The strange thing is the bike has not been moved even a microinch when it decided to break.
Much more likely to break while riding by hitting a bump on the road or whatever.
What surprises me that there is a fuse not even mentioned in the PDF service manual that can totally kill the bike and we do not have easy excess to it.
But yeah, I assume it's very rare for this to happen or I would not have been the first here to discover such. I wonder if the newer "+" models also have this same fuse.
BTW, getting all the covers off is easy and straightforward and doesn't take long. But I wouldn't want to do it on the side of the road but even that would still be possible with the correct tools. Mainly two sizes of Allan wrenches and a flush cutter to cut the strap on the fuse holder.
But even better would be to do what I did and relocate this fuse. Then no tools are needed.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Any recent earthquakes in your area, Don? ;)
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Any recent earthquakes in your area, Don? ;)
I wondered the same, but not that I am aware of, but I was in Auburn when this happened. :)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Belated congrats on finding the well hidden cause of the problem and a big thank you for sharing the information!
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I got my fuses, and I will now tell you the bad and good news.
Bad news first:
I put in the fuse and:
I got an error "C1006 CM-Vehicle Communications Error."
I turned the bike off and on still had the same error. I rebooted the bike (hold "Mode" and "set" in for around ten seconds).
I took the bike out of the LPR mode.
Same error.
And the bike Would NOT L2 charge at all. Bike would run, just no L2 charge.
I decided to try one more thing . . . .
I removed the .315MA fuse for ten seconds and put it back in.
Now the good news:
No more error, bike is now L2 charging at 3KW. It's been charging for the last ten minutes. I am now going to stop it before it gets past 90% SOC as I probably won't be riding the bike for a while.
I just wanted to pass on this news in case it happens to others.
Perhaps another reason to make sure we have easy access to this hidden fuse.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hate to resurrect an old topic but any other news on this.
A fast blow too, making it even more fragile. Im surprised the bumping and banging of riding the bike doesn't shake it and break it.
What is it for, that it needs such an odd ass rating? why not a standard half amp?
Aaron
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Hate to resurrect an old topic but any other news on this.
A fast blow too, making it even more fragile. Im surprised the bumping and banging of riding the bike doesn't shake it and break it.
What is it for, that it needs such an odd ass rating? why not a standard half amp?
Aaron
I still have no idea what the hidden 0.315 amp fuse is for. But it seems to me the most important fuse in the bike and the easiest one to break is the most difficult to find and get to and it is not even mentioned in the manuals. So far, it is the ONLY fuse in my SS9- to give me a problem and it seemed to break from no more than a temperature change. If that fuse breaks as you're riding everything goes dead. Seems very dangerous to me. At least I changed mine to where I can access it very easily and I now carry spare 0.315 amp fuses.
-Don- Anza Borrego Desert State Park, CA
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Ive seen General Electric do shady s$#%$t like this at times too with some designs. Some real odd size that only 'they' sell, for insane prices. Kind of like your 100 dollar printer costs 300 dollars to change all the ink cartridges...or it's on the front end of an op amp or something and that size causes some 5 millivolt drop across it to bias a base or stupid stuff like that. Power for a processor or something? can you see what the wire runs into? shrug.
Aaron
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can you see what the wire runs into?
Yes.
It runs into a cable where it is impossible to follow ;D
-Don- Borrego Springs, CA
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This reminds me of a few old video slot machines I have repaired over the years.
That is the power to the Bios-ROM / AVRAM / EPROM I bet.
Think of like the bios on your computer motherboard, that little battery on there keeps it and your settings alive. If you pull the battery /pull the power it all resets.
Something faulted / or it had a fit on the reboot, and did NOT want to play. It corrupted on restart. BUT when you pulled that fuse, you removed the power from the Bios /eeprom, and it reset again, did it's IPO and you are good.
just a theory. It's feeding a chip with data somewhere.
aaron
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I still have no idea what the hidden 0.315 amp fuse is for. But it seems to me the most important fuse in the bike and the easiest one to break is the most difficult to find and
This is the keep-alive voltage for VCU logic that allows bike to wake-up when powered down.
Energica labels this 12VLP (12 Volts Low Power) and it is likely derived from tapping directly to battery module NOT the DC-DC converter which is dormant when bike is powered down. The likely reason LPR exists and cell balancing recommendation @ 2-week intervals. No published details on source of keep-alive power just speculation on my part. Power comes from BMS connector J75 terminal "C".
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This is the keep-alive voltage for VCU logic that allows bike to wake-up when powered down.
Energica labels this 12VLP (12 Volts Low Power) and it is likely derived from tapping directly to battery module NOT the DC-DC converter which is dormant when bike is powered down. The likely reason LPR exists and cell balancing recommendation @ 2-week intervals. No published details on source of keep-alive power just speculation on my part. Power comes from BMS connector J75 terminal "C".
That all makes perfect sense, based on my symptoms of a totally dead bike that will not turn on. It has no power to turn on when the key is out, so yeah, it has to come direct from that battery. I think Zero does something like that also. But I don't think there is a smal fuse involved with Zero.
Where did you find an Energica schematic? There isn't one in the PDF service manual.
Thanks for the info!
-Don- (@ Kingsburgh, CA rest stop)