ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Pard on November 05, 2022, 12:01:39 AM
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New 2023 Zero FXE Owner. Picked up the bike yesterday.
Expected more range...
Charged the FXE to 100% and took it for the first ride this AM.
Temp 50F
Route 50 miles of twisty roads. Not highway, rural roads.
Battery used up 95% capacity and I kept it under 50 mph in eco mode just to get the loop done.
That is unusable for my needs. Had to baby it just to get 50 miles.
Is it the cold? Is it the New battery?
Thoughts?
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For that speed and that weather I think it is normal.
With normal summer weather you can expect 45 miles at 55 mph according to my experience.
You would have to stay at 35-40mph to get app 60 miles or little less, but it is dependent also on how you accelerate.
Don't forget to factor in the wind, that is also a big factor.
You will have fun with the bike if you stay within a radius of 20 miles of your charge location (40 miles there and back).
Hypermiling these small bikes makes no sense, their strong point is the agility.
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Good information, thanks!
Next time I try that loop I will stay slower on the boring parts and save the juice for where it can be most fun.
As I have read countless times, the process of understanding how to utilize the available power best, takes some time to learn.
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Have my FXE since March, now driven ~4k mls. My commute is 20mls one way, which I can either use b-roads or Autobahn. The latter uses 48% of the battery at 60mph/100km/h; return via b-road leaves 20...30% charge in the battery.
Or in other currency: the bike is good for a tour with mates over b-roads for two hours - with eating an ice in between ;)
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Update on this.
I sent my logs to the dealer who contacted Zero, and they did see a balance issue with the cells.
I need to bring in the bike so Zero can pull some more data and possibly replace the battery.
I am told that zero thinks I should have no issues at all having better power and range for the mileage and power use I put down.
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I’d also say it’s normal performance, considering ambient temperature and speed. These batteries don’t like cold and the colder it gets, the less range it will have. What is the app showing for the cell balance reading?
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6mv balance on the app
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That’s a healthy balance. I have to wonder what issue they are seeing. If it had a balance problem, you should be seeing a much higher number than 6. I don’t think there is anything that would increase the range you are getting much, except for warmer temperatures. If it was 75 or 80 out you might get 10 or 15 miles more at the most. Zero claims 100 miles range in urban riding, but I think you’d have to really baby it in eco mode to get that far. Their range claims seem to be based on perfect conditions and very gentle use, so if you’re having much fun, you’re unlikely to get close to the advertised range. This has been my experience too and most reviews have said the same thing.
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Really appreciate the information. Very helpful.
I will update you guys after the dealer does it's thing.
In the meantime, today is going to be closer to 70 around here so I will run the same route and see if the results are the same.
I also noticed a discrepancy between the bikes odometer and the app odometer. The bike reads 25% higher than the app data, and actual mile measured data that I have from gps, map, and a calibrated odometer.
Does the battery charge status in any way interact with the odometer data, or is that data purely separate? Does it adjust charge state displayed on the dash lower, in mileage ridden suggests it should be lowered?
I need to compare the bikes speedometer reading against GPS readout to see if the Spedo is off as well. I assume odometer and speedometer data interact.
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The bike's speedometer should intentionally read higher to comply with regulations (if that applies in your area, and Zero actually adjusts the mapping to the sales area). The odometer however should be close to reality.
UN ECE 39:
5.3. The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the test speeds specified
in paragraph 5.2.5 above, there shall be the following relationship between the speed displayed (V 1 )
and the true speed (V 2 ).
0 ? (V 1 – V2 ) ? 0,1 V2 + 4 km/h
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:120:0040:0048:EN:PDF
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Good info. This is a very well informed forum!
Did another ride this AM.
70F
49 miles on the odometer, 48 on the app
10% battery remaining 15mv balance at the end
This time I took it easier on the boring parts and rode harder on the twisty sections. This formula works. Just need to learn the bike and battery limits, conserve energy, when able, to have energy for when I need it.
Interesting indeed. Like flying a glider compared to a powered aircraft. Much more cerebral when it comes to energy management.
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Really enjoying this bike. Comfortable with available range, now that I know what to expect.
Added handguards, and axle sliders.
Replaced stock mirrors with folding units mounted on the handguards.
Removed passenger pegs to save 3 pounds, balanced by the handguards and axle sliders that were added.
The stock tires are too much of a touring tire for my taste. Looking for more grip, I ordered a set of Michelin Power Cup Evo tires which are genuinely sticky rubber. They are also lighter tires which should improve range a bit. Noticed a lack of wheel weights on the wheels. I assume they did not even bother to balance the wheels/tires when mounted. Feel that imbalance at higher speeds. I mount my own tires and will make sure they are balanced. I generally avoid wheel weights by rotating the rubber on the rim before inflating to seat the bead. There is almost always a spot that balances perfectly without weights.
Will be replacing the stock front master with a Magura 12mm. Stock is 13mm and feels a bit too wooden for my taste. Smaller bore requires more lever travel but offers increased graded modulation.
Have a new rear master coming from Qnium so the left hand rear brake setup I have in place can be more refined.
Front brake has a strange jerkiness to it when doing hard braking. Not sure what the cause may be.
Ordered an EBC rotor that fits the bike:
https://ebcbrakesdirect.com/motorcycle/zero-electric-motorcycles/zero-fxs/20172020/111617
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Nice job making it your own with some good mods. It really is a very fun bike, so agile and effortless. I just got mine back yesterday after 3 weeks at the dealer waiting on a new ignition switch and I missed it. I love my big heavy Guzzi too, but the FXE has quickly become my favorite for most of the riding I do. My dealer is 30 miles of LA freeway from my home. Traffic was heavy and slow, but the FXE is the perfect lane splitter, like a sharp hot knife through butter.
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New 2023 Zero FXE Owner. Picked up the bike yesterday.
Expected more range...
Charged the FXE to 100% and took it for the first ride this AM.
Temp 50F
Route 50 miles of twisty roads. Not highway, rural roads.
Battery used up 95% capacity and I kept it under 50 mph in eco mode just to get the loop done.
That is unusable for my needs. Had to baby it just to get 50 miles.
Is it the cold? Is it the New battery?
Thoughts?
You will get your best range when you're warm or just a little hot yourself. Too hot has a different set of issues, bike won't charge if too hot (above ~100F/38C)
You could get 20% more range when warm. Also, you still have some range left at 0 SOC. Perhaps 6% or so.
The new battery could have even better range. What size battery is it? Expect around 7 miles per KWH the way you were riding. Each time you double the speed, expect around half the range. Eco mode only limits you. You can ride the same way in Sport mode and there will be no difference to your battery drain.
Same with regen, You can set it at the very max, 100% and have none at all by using the throttle. You can use the lines on the screen to see where you have exactly zero regen. So all the settings do is limit you and make the throttle less touchy. You may as well put it all on max and then ride as if in eco mode.
Your range will vary a lot. Many things effect the range such as hills, wind, temperature. weight.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Don,
Excellent info! Thank you.
Battery is 7.2 KwH
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Don,
Excellent info! Thank you.
Battery is 7.2 KwH
Batteries KWH capacity is rated two ways. The 7.2 KWH is the max capacity and useable capacity is 6.3 KW. 6.3 KWH times 7= equals 44.1 miles. Your range was very good for that battery for the way you were riding.
The battery KWH above the useable is important for the battery longevity. If they would really let you charge it to the full 7.2, your battery wouldn't last nearly as long.
Another thing I should have mentioned that is bad for range is the changing of speeds. That's done a lot in mountain rides. You would get a better range if you could just stay at the same average speed for the entire trip.
Regen can only give back about 10% of the power going downhill coasting to get back up the same hill at the same speed. In many cases, you get better range without any regen at all. One can waste power with regen being misused. For an example, if you go down a steep hill then up right away, you lose more power by the regen slowing the bike down for the next hill, because in that case you would be wasting all that energy from the bike slowing down to go up the next hill.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I know this has been discussed many times, but 7.2 kWh is not the max. capacity. It is a lie/marketing number based on nothing.
The real capacity of your bike is: Less than 3,64V*32Ah*2*28= 6,5kWh.
I say less than, because the cell only has 32Ah if it is charged up to 4.3V and discharged to 2,75V. Zero only charges then to 4,15V, therefore the real energy is less, probably 6kWh or less
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I know this has been discussed many times, but 7.2 kWh is not the max. capacity. It is a lie/marketing number based on nothing.
The real capacity of your bike is: Less than 3,64V*32Ah*2*28= 6,5kWh.
I say less than, because the cell only has 32Ah if it is charged up to 4.3V and discharged to 2,75V. Zero only charges then to 4,15V, therefore the real energy is less, probably 6kWh or less
I guess the lies on motorcycle specs have never stopped. Back in 1971, all my manuals say my 1971 BMW R75/5 gas tank is 6.3 gallons. I have had it totally dry. Cannot even get six gallons into it. More like 5.75 gallons for an exact number.
Same with just about every spec that can be a selling point. They lied about everything. I only use the gas tank as an example to show it's a deliberate lie. IOW, that cannot be based on riding conditions or anything like that. Was just a pure lie based on nothing at all.
I now see things have not changed much since then.
So if you tried to charge all those cells in the Zero battery to the 7.2 KWH claimed max of the battery, will the battery blow up or what?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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For the full 7,2 kWh you'd need 35Ah. The 32 Ah cells reach 4,3 V at 32 Ah, after which they will be overcharged
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For the full 7,2 kWh you'd need 35Ah. The 32 Ah cells reach 4,3 V at 32 Ah, after which they will be overcharged
It will be perhaps overcharged to even get that 6KWH. My question is how much overcharging could the battery handle for just one time? Is that 7.2 really well proven to be an imaginary made-up number even under such tough conditions?
-Don- Auburn, NV
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Have close to 400 miles on the bike now. Sent my Logs to Zero an they say all is well.
"Thank you for sending in your motorcycle’s logs. I was able to review the last few rides completed and your motorcycle is properly using the full capacity of your power pack.
Your power pack warranty expires on 11/3/2027. If you believe your power pack performance has decreased substantially at any point before the warranty expires, please feel free to send in a new set of logs and we would be happy to review them again.
Thank you,
Gavin Haight"
CX Electrical Engineer
380 El Pueblo Road
Scotts Valley, CA 95066
(888) RUN-ZERO Ext. 2
support@zeromotorcycles.com
zeromotorcycles.com
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@Don
Yes 7.2 kWh is an imaginary number. I have access to the current cell datasheet that is not public. I think you know this stuff already but here's the math:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 32 Ah * 3.64 V = 6.5 kWh.
Now those 32 Ah are actually only achieved at 4.3 V - 2.75 V, which is way higher than Zero charges them (and I think lower than they discharge).
Zero only charges them to 4.15 V as far as I know, achieving 28.6 Ah. The nominal voltage is also lower (3,6 V for the 4.15 V - 2.75 V range to be exact) than the 3.64 V, which belongs to the 4.3 V - 2.75 V range.
With the true 28.6 Ah at 3.6 V, the real capacity is 5,7 kWh.
This is all at 1C discharge and 25°C, both of which we don't really have, so the true value can be even lower.
This is a really bad case of false advertising.
Since you asked how much they can handle once in a while, that's 4.3 V, which is 32 Ah (6.5 kWh as mentioned above). That's the absolute max, and it causes significantly more degradation than the 4,15 V that Zero luckily uses.
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@Don
Yes 7.2 kWh is an imaginary number. I have access to the current cell datasheet that is not public. I think you know this stuff already but here's the math:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 32 Ah * 3.64 V = 6.5 kWh.
Now those 32 Ah are actually only achieved at 4.3 V - 2.75 V, which is way higher than Zero charges them (and I think lower than they discharge).
Zero only charges them to 4.15 V as far as I know, achieving 28.6 Ah. The nominal voltage is also lower (3,6 V for the 4.15 V - 2.75 V range to be exact) than the 3.64 V, which belongs to the 4.3 V - 2.75 V range.
With the true 28.6 Ah at 3.6 V, the real capacity is 5,7 kWh.
This is all at 1C discharge and 25°C, both of which we don't really have, so the true value can be even lower.
This is a really bad case of false advertising.
Since you asked how much they can handle once in a while, that's 4.3 V, which is 32 Ah (6.5 kWh as mentioned above). That's the absolute max, and it causes significantly more degradation than the 4,15 V that Zero luckily uses.
The false advertising is indeed concerning.
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This is a really bad case of false advertising.
If they wanted to be honest, they would say the "7.2 KWH max capacity" battery they advertise at "6.5 KWH useable" would really be:
Max capacity= 6.5 KWH (lie of 0.7 KWH). A lie of 1.4KWH on the larger 14.4 KWH battery.
True useable capacity= 5.7KWH (lie of 0.6 KWH). A lie of 1.2KWH on the larger 14.4KWH battery.
Is Energica more honest with their battery size than Zero or do they all play the same game?
I really don't know much at all about EV batteries, just the very basics.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe
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@Don I'd have to look into Energica to check.
For Zero, I'd even say don't even advertise "max capacity 6.5 kWh". The simple reason is, you can't access it. There is no difference in nominal and usable in this case. All you ever get is 5.7 kWh.
(With all that, I am not exactly sure if the charge end Vorlage they use today is actually 4.15 V or a bit higher now).
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The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe
I am not an electrical engineer, but I do pay attention to the reported range at various speeds and type of usage.
Those numbers seem to be pure BS to me.
I get 50 miles out of a 100% charge and I have to baby the machine most of the time.
Fun, but disappointing. I do feel like I was misled by the manufacturer and the dealer about capabilities.
I wish there was an option to add just a bit more battery to the machine. An extra 20% would be nice indeed.
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The Max and Nominal capacity is right in the specs: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fxe)
I am not an electrical engineer, but I do pay attention to the reported range at various speeds and type of usage.
Those numbers seem to be pure BS to me.
I get 50 miles out of a 100% charge and I have to baby the machine most of the time.
Fun, but disappointing. I do feel like I was misled by the manufacturer and the dealer about capabilities.
I wish there was an option to add just a bit more battery to the machine. An extra 20% would be nice indeed.
Can the Power Tank be added to the FXE? It can add 25% more range. But it is costly and makes the bike top heavy. And will also take 25% longer to charge to full.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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No options for additional battery capacity at this point.
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Looking at the specs for the FXE, it sure takes a long time to recharge its battery. Zero must be using a pretty wimpy charger. ???
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@Don
Yes 7.2 kWh is an imaginary number. I have access to the current cell datasheet that is not public. I think you know this stuff already but here's the math:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 32 Ah * 3.64 V = 6.5 kWh.
This would be accurate if the bike recognized the packs as 32Ah. They do not. Zero has them capped at 28.5Ah which is what you will find if you read any BMS or MBB logs. Therefore:
2 cells in parallel * 28 cells in series * 28.5 Ah * 3.65 v = 5825.4 Wh = 5.8kWh.
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Well, I will ride this FXE for a bit and then consider trading it in towards an SR/F
But that bike weighs 500 lbs compared to the FXE at 300.
Need to test ride it. If it handles like pig, no interest.
May also test ride a Harley Livewire
Shame, the FXE would be awesomer if they added another 25-50 lbs of battery to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avx7QrMyMhM&t=8s
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If you're going to look at a LiveWire at 549 lbs you might as well look at an Energica at 573 lbs.
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I rode all the aforementioned heavier bikes before buying my FXE. I can confirm they are all wallowing pigs by comparison. But don’t get me wrong, my Griso is also a porky beast and it’s quite dear to me. Heavy bikes are great for touring in the countryside with little or no traffic. But they are much less fun in urban areas. For my needs, the FXE is the perfect counterpart to my Griso. I wouldn’t want the FXE to be a single ounce heavier because the range is sufficient for how I use it. I suppose I’m exactly the guy they had in mind when they designed it, the suburbanite who also has a gas bike for getting out into the open spaces. The battery tech and charging network just aren’t there yet to compete with gas bikes for touring. It won’t be long though. Progress is quickening on both fronts.
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@MVetter Good point, but it doesn't matter if it detects them as 32 Ah or 28.5 Ah, since the capacity for the voltage range that Zero uses is 28.6 kWh anyway. Even if they recognized it as 32 Ah or 40 Ah, it wouldn't change how much energy is actually in the cell.
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I particularily like the weight of my FXE; it's easy to push over steps through the stairwell into the backyard for charging, it handles well on urban roads.
In summer, it leaves 20-30% SoC left after a commute starting with 100%. Now it got colder, <10°C/50°F, it had only 6% left, after heavily derating under 50% SoC.
What will happen to these '7.2' packs when they are five years old? ~80% from the original capacity?
I certainly will have to recharge at work in colder conditions. Will there be battery technology with higher energy density in 2027? Very likely. Will it be worthwhile to upgrade older bikes?
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Unless you're doing like 25k miles a year you should see more 5 years from the battery before it gets below 80%, at least that's what Zero used to rate them at. For most riders it will be more like 10 years, potentially more but even if the battery isn't used as much I imagine time alone will have some affect on it. After that amount of time, if they still have the bike (or they're buying a used one) a replacement battery shouldn't be a huge expense considering the money that has been saved. It may even end up being an upgrade over the original battery being newer technology (greater capacity mainly), assuming Zero don't intentionally block it in some way.
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The Zero S with the power tank would give the little bit extra I am looking for.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-s
Still a light bike, but with some extra range or some extra performance for the same range as the FXE.
Does the power tank mess up the handling?
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Are you talking about the 7.2 S? That's a decent compromise compared to going for a 14.4. 162kg versus 185kg, you lose the tank storage space but have one down next to the battery and either is a benefit over the FXE's lack of storage. Also compared to the FXE you'll have faster charging. However the 7.2 has the same 46hp power output as the FXE, the 14.4 would step that up to 59hp and get you a little higher maintained speed (80mph versus 72mph). This is all assuming the 14.4 non-R models are even an option where you live, for some reason Zero give different options for different regions (we in the UK no longer have the 7.2 S/DS).
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7.2 S with the power tank for an extra 6kW charge tank option.
Claimed 30% more range with 45lbs increase in curb weight
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The Zero S with the power tank would give the little bit extra I am looking for.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-s
Still a light bike, but with some extra range or some extra performance for the same range as the FXE.
Does the power tank mess up the handling?
I have owned two Zeros with Power Tanks. That extra 42 pounds can really be felt when trying to make quick S-turns and other rapid chassis movements. Also it makes the bike very difficult to lift back up if it falls over. Finally, it places a lot more weight on the front wheel and that can (and does) increase wear on the front tire, although adding a couple more psi in the tire than recommended by Zero helps.
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@Richard230 Excellent info. Much obliged!
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@MVetter Good point, but it doesn't matter if it detects them as 32 Ah or 28.5 Ah, since the capacity for the voltage range that Zero uses is 28.6 kWh anyway. Even if they recognized it as 32 Ah or 40 Ah, it wouldn't change how much energy is actually in the cell.
No, because it's only allowed to use 28.5 out of the 32Ah.
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Some more performance modifications today.
Replaced the stock front master with a magura HC1 12mm. Much better feel and easier to modulate. Brake switch is the identical unit to stock, that was easy. Required a 90 degree adapter to use the existing brake line .
Replaced the stock front brake pads with ferodo sintered HH pads. Awesome braking power compared to stock.
Replaced front tire with a gripier Mitas MC50 110/70. Flatter profile compared to the Pirelli. 1 lb heavier which was not anticipated. Confidence inspiring when trail braking into tight corners.
More to come. Going to maximize the potential of this bike until I get rid of it. LOL!
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7.2 S with the power tank for an extra 6kW charge tank option.
Claimed 30% more range with 45lbs increase in curb weight
You can't have both, the power tank and charge tank occupy the same space. If you wanted both more range and faster charging then you'd need to get a 14.4 and add the charge tank, or step up to at least an SR which for 2023 model (or is it 2022? The one that looks like an SR/F) will get you 15.6kW/h and 3kW charging stock.
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7.2 S with the power tank for an extra 6kW charge tank option.
Claimed 30% more range with 45lbs increase in curb weight
You can't have both, the power tank and charge tank occupy the same space. If you wanted both more range and faster charging then you'd need to get a 14.4 and add the charge tank, or step up to at least an SR which for 2023 model (or is it 2022? The one that looks like an SR/F) will get you 15.6kW/h and 3kW charging stock.
Understood. Thank you!
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Contacted my dealer to try an arrange a trade in of my FXE towards an S model with the power pack tank for the extra range.
Guess what!!!!
The dealer is not interested in taking my bike in trade, the same bike they just sold me! LOL!
I think I will contact the attorney general of my region and start a lemon law claim.
If the dealer will not even allow me to take a major loss on a trade in for a new bike from their dealership, I cry foul.
Will see what transpires.
Zero blew me off as well after analyzing 400 miles of my logs. They just said your actual performance may vary.
However, it should not vary by 50% of stated performance claims when I am riding it as per manufacturer recommendations.
Rant over. Going riding!
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With all of the modifications you've done to it I'm not surprised they don't want it back. Not saying you've done bad work but they can't guarantee that. And the range you got wasn't far off expected. Going purely off the state of charge you could have got about 53 miles on your first trip, 54 miles on the second, at sub 50mph to 0% (and it would have gone further once it hits 0). Zero claim 60 miles at 55mph in ideal conditions, so a nice warm day on level ground with gentle acceleration.
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Every single modification implemented has been Zero factory parts or completely reasonable and reversible items such as swapping out brake master cylinders. I can revert it all to bone stock in 2 hrs.
Nothing I have done would impact warranty at all.
In any case, that did not even come up in the conversation with the dealer.
The zero website says 40 miles at 70 mph. Cannot be done.
60 miles at 55mph cannot be done.
I get 50 miles at an average speed of 40mph.
Very misleading (fraudulent) performance claims by Zero.
Fun bike, but misleading advertising by the company. Materially misleading and a case for fraud.
As far as the dealer goes, absolutely unreasonable IMHO for them not to buy back my stock configured FXE at a 25% loss to me , towards a trade in for another brand new Zero S at full retail price.
I am taking all the losses here.
They can then go ahead and make profit on my initial FXE purchase, on the sale of the same FXE as a used bike, and then profit off a sale of a new S to me again.
Or, I can get the lemon law involved and see if they agree about the false advertising claims.
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While their range estimates may not be accurate to what people get in the real world they are based on a standardised test, and they do state that real life results may vary. If anyone was able to challenge that then they would have by now, and not even just with Zero but every other manufacturer that tests to the same standard.
And I don't get why you're so adamant that they have to buy your bike back off you. They don't, and perhaps they just don't want to hassle of selling a used bike. Perhaps there's not enough profit in it for them. If you truly believe that your bike is faulty them make a warranty claim, something that they legally have to deal with.
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Not trying to persuade you @TheRan.
Just sharing the typical experience on the East Coast USA when it comes to buying and trading in bikes. Dealers will ALWAYS take your bike in trade, often at a very low price, but always take it in order to sell another bike to you the customer. Same with automobiles.
Not sure where you are located, but my reaction to the dealer is based on what is customary in these parts.
"range that can be expected" is the problematic language. No way in hell you can get 40 miles at 70 mph on an FXE. "actual range may vary" is not a license to outright misrepresent the truth in marketing.
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It has done that range with the standardised test in the lab. All those tests are not supposed to promise you a range, but to enable you to compare it with other vehicles that have done the same test under the same mandatory lab conditions.
Those tests often always are simplified, so that they can be reproduced in labs all around the world. Thus, they will never match my commute to work, because roads, weather, climate, other road users and my excitement never match the simplified test criteria.
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It has done that range with the standardised test in the lab. All those tests are not supposed to promise you a range, but to enable you to compare it with other vehicles that have done the same test under the same mandatory lab conditions.
Those tests often always are simplified, so that they can be reproduced in labs all around the world. Thus, they will never match my commute to work, because roads, weather, climate, other road users and my excitement never match the simplified test criteria.
OK, but if I go in to a dealer to purchase a machine and ask the dealer if the machine can comfortably make a 50 mile ride on secondary roads at speeds averaging less that 60 mph, and they state "of course," if that is false, there is a violation.
The dealer can point to the advertised specs and say that the manufacturer claims are being used.
Yet, the customer has been defrauded. I cannot use the FXE for 50 miles unless I ride it below 50mph. Very material adverse event.
Done debating this topic.
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All manufacturers of certain vehicles have to do this test and many others in order to get their vehicles homologated. Some of the test results they have to publish, others even need to be included in advertising in some jurisdictions.
It's not easy to prove that the dealer had more information; and even if - how would his information match your individual use of said moped?
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Whatever....
I will sell the bike for whatever the market will take, and get an S with the extra battery.
That should be a better fit for the mission.
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I was having the same thoughts before buying the FXE. Do I need a 14.4 or is a 7.2 sufficient?
Now eight months and 7,000km in, I'm more relaxed; but I'm still interested in test driving an S to see if it could be a replacement for the FXE for the range, but also for performance.
When you look for something bigger, and have the license for it; you might as well look at Energicas.
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It sucks and I understand your frustration, but it's just the way it is. It's not unique to Zeros, electric bikes (cars are the same), or even just electric vehicles. Most people won't get the specified range from a gas vehicle either. And it's not even vehicles, most battery powered devices won't last as long as they saw, power tools like impact wrenches won't put out the advertised torque, graphics cards won't give you the FPS that the manufacturer says, and so on. Every manufacturer will do whatever they can to get the best specs they can, within the law. As customers it's up to us to do the research ourselves and watch and read reviews to find out how things perform in the real world.
The only thing I can think of that regularly exceeds its rating is the battery life of digital stills cameras. The standardised test they go through (CIPA) is more of a challenge than what most people will put the camera through in real life. However because it's a standard and everyone uses it, everyone uses it even if it doesn't make it look as good on paper.
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Every single modification implemented has been Zero factory parts or completely reasonable and reversible items such as swapping out brake master cylinders. I can revert it all to bone stock in 2 hrs.
Nothing I have done would impact warranty at all.
In any case, that did not even come up in the conversation with the dealer.
The zero website says 40 miles at 70 mph. Cannot be done.
60 miles at 55mph cannot be done.
I get 50 miles at an average speed of 40mph.
Very misleading (fraudulent) performance claims by Zero.
Fun bike, but misleading advertising by the company. Materially misleading and a case for fraud.
As far as the dealer goes, absolutely unreasonable IMHO for them not to buy back my stock configured FXE at a 25% loss to me , towards a trade in for another brand new Zero S at full retail price.
I am taking all the losses here.
They can then go ahead and make profit on my initial FXE purchase, on the sale of the same FXE as a used bike, and then profit off a sale of a new S to me again.
Or, I can get the lemon law involved and see if they agree about the false advertising claims.
It has all been done. But under perfect conditions with a very light rider. And the bike is ridden until it dies. There could be quite some range left at 0% SOC, but I wouldn't trust it for more than a mile or two.
The range numbers from Zero are NOT made-up numbers. Zero paid money to get those numbers from a 3rd party. The last I heard, Energica does NOT do that, but Zero does.
There have been times where I have done better than those specs. Wind in my favor, very slow speeds, a lot of downhill, etc.
I have no complaints about their range specs, but never rely on them.
Besides that, I go more by the KWH capacity of the battery and other such stuff. I do not even want to see a range spec as long as the nominal and useable KWH capacity of the battery is accurate.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The range numbers from Zero are NOT made-up numbers. Zero paid money to get those numbers from a 3rd party. The last I heard, Energica does NOT do that, but Zero does.
Energica quotes values according to WMTC, which must be assessed by a third party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Motorcycle_Test_Cycle
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The range numbers from Zero are NOT made-up numbers. Zero paid money to get those numbers from a 3rd party. The last I heard, Energica does NOT do that, but Zero does.
Energica quotes values according to WMTC, which must be assessed by a third party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Motorcycle_Test_Cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Motorcycle_Test_Cycle)
Oh, Okay, but I heard differently four years ago when I questioned the weird difference in range vs. the SS9- and ss9+ with an Energica employee.
See here for the difference (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9612.0) that make no sense to me. As if a KWH is less than a KWH at high speeds but is more than a KWH at low speeds when the KWH battery capacity is doubled.
The other thing we need to remember is just as with ICE cars, those numbers are for comparisons ONLY. Accuracy is NOT to be expected except for comparison purposes. So if they are all low, then they compare well. YMMV.
BTW, I hear the EPA will lower the MPG on a vehicle on request. But they will never raise it.
Even electric cars are rated in MPG for comparison purposes (using average prices). My Tesla M3 is an AWD and gets 116 MPG to compare with ICE or other EVs.
But the same car, which is cheaper withOUT AWD, gets BETTER range and better "MPG".
Telsa didn't like the idea that the cheaper car got the best range and best MPG.
So they lowered the MPG and range spec of the Tesla M3 without the AWD on request and got it.
But the truth is, I would get around 20 more miles range if I did NOT have the AWD that cost me 5K$ more.
Tesla has them both rated exactly the same MPG, 116 MPG.
Always remember that this world runs on BS. Mostly green BS.
But I look at the bright side. It's everywhere, the one resource we will never run out of.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Always remember that this world runs on BS. Mostly green BS.
But I look at the bright side. It's everywhere, the one resource we will never run out of.
Truer words were never spoken, Don. ;)
Of course, you can also add political hot air to that list. ::)
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Every single modification implemented has been Zero factory parts or completely reasonable and reversible items such as swapping out brake master cylinders. I can revert it all to bone stock in 2 hrs.
Nothing I have done would impact warranty at all.
In any case, that did not even come up in the conversation with the dealer.
The zero website says 40 miles at 70 mph. Cannot be done.
60 miles at 55mph cannot be done.
I get 50 miles at an average speed of 40mph.
Very misleading (fraudulent) performance claims by Zero.
Fun bike, but misleading advertising by the company. Materially misleading and a case for fraud.
As far as the dealer goes, absolutely unreasonable IMHO for them not to buy back my stock configured FXE at a 25% loss to me , towards a trade in for another brand new Zero S at full retail price.
I am taking all the losses here.
They can then go ahead and make profit on my initial FXE purchase, on the sale of the same FXE as a used bike, and then profit off a sale of a new S to me again.
Or, I can get the lemon law involved and see if they agree about the false advertising claims.
Do you really want to give money towards a 2nd bike to a dealer and a company that you have this experience with? I wouldn't....
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Every single modification implemented has been Zero factory parts or completely reasonable and reversible items such as swapping out brake master cylinders. I can revert it all to bone stock in 2 hrs.
Nothing I have done would impact warranty at all.
In any case, that did not even come up in the conversation with the dealer.
The zero website says 40 miles at 70 mph. Cannot be done.
60 miles at 55mph cannot be done.
I get 50 miles at an average speed of 40mph.
Very misleading (fraudulent) performance claims by Zero.
Fun bike, but misleading advertising by the company. Materially misleading and a case for fraud.
As far as the dealer goes, absolutely unreasonable IMHO for them not to buy back my stock configured FXE at a 25% loss to me , towards a trade in for another brand new Zero S at full retail price.
I am taking all the losses here.
They can then go ahead and make profit on my initial FXE purchase, on the sale of the same FXE as a used bike, and then profit off a sale of a new S to me again.
Or, I can get the lemon law involved and see if they agree about the false advertising claims.
Do you really want to give money towards a 2nd bike to a dealer and a company that you have this experience with? I wouldn't....
That is a fair point, indeed ...
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Every single modification implemented has been Zero factory parts or completely reasonable and reversible items such as swapping out brake master cylinders. I can revert it all to bone stock in 2 hrs.
Nothing I have done would impact warranty at all.
In any case, that did not even come up in the conversation with the dealer.
The zero website says 40 miles at 70 mph. Cannot be done.
60 miles at 55mph cannot be done.
I get 50 miles at an average speed of 40mph.
Very misleading (fraudulent) performance claims by Zero.
Fun bike, but misleading advertising by the company. Materially misleading and a case for fraud.
As far as the dealer goes, absolutely unreasonable IMHO for them not to buy back my stock configured FXE at a 25% loss to me , towards a trade in for another brand new Zero S at full retail price.
I am taking all the losses here.
They can then go ahead and make profit on my initial FXE purchase, on the sale of the same FXE as a used bike, and then profit off a sale of a new S to me again.
Or, I can get the lemon law involved and see if they agree about the false advertising claims.
Do you really want to give money towards a 2nd bike to a dealer and a company that you have this experience with? I wouldn't....
So I've been lurking for some time and using the info here (Thanks). In June of 2022 I test-rode several Zero's as did my buddy (all his fault for taking me there). I ended up buying a 2022 S and he purchased the 2022 FXE
Dealer, oh yeah same drivetrain and charger in each......
Boy was he disappointed when he realized it took 9 hours for his vs 5 for mine.
We completely were blinded by shiny new motorcycles and didn't take our time to research (Our bad)
Since then We've both put 2600ish miles on each. I've spent a lot of time being the slowest of the slow pokes as well as enjoying it as one would expect to enjoy a motorcycle on twisted road/beautiful day.
example - https://go.rever.co/wQVctuVLDub
5:00 TOTAL TIME
23 AVG SPEED (MPH)
76.5 DISTANCE (MI)
3:08 MOVING TIME
49 TOP SPEED (MPH)
6967 ELEVATION (FT)
https://go.rever.co/xDEtROJ6Jub Twisty fun ride but still not earth-shattering
1:03 TOTAL TIME
42 AVG SPEED (MPH)
40.87 DISTANCE (MI)
0:57 MOVING TIME
71 TOP SPEED (MPH)
2931 ELEVATION (FT)
I will try to make the most out of this, I love the bike (Zero S) but I don't see ever purchasing another Zero or returning to the dealership I purchased it from. The range is a joke. The lack of information about the bike is miserable (battery info for example). The total lack of an affordable external charger over 1KW is unacceptable. While it's super useful to be able to plug into the wall the lack of a J-1772 connector to charge from is crazy for the money I paid for the motorcycle. For example the dealer it was purchased from doesn't have a normal exterior outlet but does have a level two charger in front of the car dealership. Now I have purchased the J-1772 adaptor but it leaves some serious holes in charging options (even if it's still slow, more outlet availability). I have reached out to Zero who told me to contact my dealership. I don't need a faster bike, but I would have bought a 14.4 kW Zero S over the 7.2 kW I have. I hope to use the Zero S for another 2 years or so, then hopefully there will be more options out there. 1st time ever I even considered a Harley, the Livewire Del Mar. I still think that might not have enough juice but it appears they actually meet their range expectations.
$12,000+ for a motorcycle and it can't even do more than 50 miles even being somewhat reserved? Never again Zero.
I just don't understand how you have a long-term business model running things like this. I can only imagine the challenges of bringing something like the Zero to market but getting people to sign on the dotted line while they are staring at something shiny only to turn around and tell everyone this thing doesn't live up to any of the hype can't last long.
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^^^^ @OKANOR +1000000 Awesome Post!
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New 2022 FXE owner here.
Purchased from a RideNow powersports on a trade in last weekend.
After signing the paperwork, and taking the keys in the parking lot of the dealership there were three error codes with 95% charge.
The dealer let me know that the bike was safe to ride and that they could pick it up from me within two weeks to get it serviced.
Otherwise the bike is great! Last bike was a Tracer 900 GT and this bike has very similar acceleration up to about 55 which is perfect for getting away from traffic.
Very impressed with the brakes and suspension components and in general fit and finish was very good.
So much fun to just goof off and zip into here or there. Great for exploring.
The Zero app and its attempts to pair to the bike via bluetooth is bad bad bad. Lots of this documented on the forum. Will use once to set my custom mode, but what a wasted opportunity for Zero to integrate their app with the bike, like offering a security tracking service bundle. I bought the DFence GPS system for this, but that was a separate service entirely.
Overall, would purchase again, will check back in two weeks though :o
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Excellent video that spells out all the lies in the electric motorcycling industry.
https://youtu.be/WWCeQmhNYfQ
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No way in hell you can get 40 miles at 70 mph on an FXE.
My commute is 36 miles (round trip), with 34 of that being US Interstate hwy and I'm running 65/70 the entire time and I still have ~30% battery left on my 2022 FXE, pretty consistent for just over 3600 miles now.
But I'm relatively light (170lbs), skinny (34" waist, 40" chest), and short (5'7"). I'm not laying down at all (old man's back), but I'm certainly not sitting straight up and I keep my arms close to the body. My jacket and pants are also tight-fitting, so no flapping. I also don't move around a lot. I keep my tires pumped up, and I don't twist the throttle around a bunch, just cruise at the flow of hwy traffic. With the colder weather (down in the low 40's F), I'm now down to 27% battery life. But, I don't live in hell, so I can't imagine what that's like :-).
-s
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No way in hell you can get 40 miles at 70 mph on an FXE.
My commute is 36 miles (round trip), with 34 of that being US Interstate hwy and I'm running 65/70 the entire time and I still have ~30% battery left on my 2022 FXE, pretty consistent for just over 3600 miles now.
But I'm relatively light (170lbs), skinny (34" waist, 40" chest), and short (5'7"). I'm not laying down at all (old man's back), but I'm certainly not sitting straight up and I keep my arms close to the body. My jacket and pants are also tight-fitting, so no flapping. I also don't move around a lot. I keep my tires pumped up, and I don't twist the throttle around a bunch, just cruise at the flow of hwy traffic. With the colder weather (down in the low 40's F), I'm now down to 27% battery life. But, I don't live in hell, so I can't imagine what that's like :-).
-s
Good info. My bike cuts power output significantly when it approaches 30%. Are you able to maintain the 65 mph speed towards the end of your commute?
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Took a test ride on the (Harley) LiveWire today. If you have not experienced that machine, seek it out.
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Took a test ride on the (Harley) LiveWire today. If you have not experienced that machine, seek it out.
I have and didn't care for it for many reasons.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Took a test ride on the (Harley) LiveWire today. If you have not experienced that machine, seek it out.
I have and didn't care for it for many reasons.
-Don- Reno, NV
What didn't you care for?
The only complaint I have is how insanely heavy the thing is. Once underway, feels very good to me.
Was impressed with the acceleration, handling and braking.
The cost is off-putting.
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What didn't you care for?
1. No reverse.
2. No slow forward park mode.
3. No level two charging.
4. Slow charging even on CCS.
5. Was not comfy to me during a test tide.
6. Too expensive for what you get.
7. No decent luggage available.
If I were going to compare to the Energica Experia, I would have a few more things to add, such as no centerstand available.
IMO, the LW has NOTHING going for it compared to Energica.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Good info. My bike cuts power output significantly when it approaches 30%. Are you able to maintain the 65 mph speed towards the end of your commute?
Interesting, I've not encountered that. My house is 1.2 miles from the hwy (and there's a small hill on the hwy). The lowest I've ever had the battery was at 22% and it was still running 65 up that last "hill". In general, my commute is also relatively level, there are three small hills, one at 380', the other two are only about 300' (~100 meters), so very little elevation change.
I'm running a custom mode, with (I think) two clicks down on the Torque (from Sport) and adding the Regen. I'll check on the exact setting later and can update.
-s
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Took a test ride on the (Harley) LiveWire today. If you have not experienced that machine, seek it out.
I have and didn't care for it for many reasons.
-Don- Reno, NV
What didn't you care for?
The only complaint I have is how insanely heavy the thing is. Once underway, feels very good to me.
Was impressed with the acceleration, handling and braking.
The cost is off-putting.
I tried both the old and new Livewire, along with the SR/S, before getting my FXE. What I didn't like about the Livewire (ignoring the cost), was how erratic it got when leaned way over. My test corner for that is a 180 degree freeway on-ramp (that has some bumps in the pavement). The Livewire tire profile is not very round, more of an oval (flatter on the bottom and then curving rapidly). So when I got her right up on that edge, the steering wasn't smooth (a bit wobbly), due to the transition around that edge.
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The FXE is lots of fun on the twisty sections. The suspension sucks. Going to look into some options for improving the compliance. I like it alright under braking and out of corners, but over bumps, not so much.
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Considering getting the front forks fitted with different springs and valving.
Anybody know if anyone has had substantial success doing this on the smaller zeros?
Good info in this thread: https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7737
"We can revalve and spring this suspension. We have gold valves and springs available. Are you planning on bringing in the whole bike? = )
Thank you,
Sydney Ruge
Race Tech
(951) 228-5778
1501 Pomona Road
Corona, CA 92878 "
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This bike is being sold today. Moving on to Energica.
I actually tried to discourage the buyer by revealing my real world range experience with the bike, despite how much fun it is. He still wants it for a 10 mile commute each way. For that, it is awesome.
See you over at the Energica side of life!