ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: BigPoppa on November 01, 2022, 11:06:37 PM
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Yesterday when I was doing my periodic battery drain to 0% on my Ribelle my wife asked me why I had to do it on the motorcycle but not my cars. When I had my 13kw EsseEsse9 the manual stated:
It is recommended to discharge the battery until display of the "Low battery" message and SOC (state of charge) = 0% every 10-20 normal charging cycles. On reaching 0% you must recharge the motorcycle as soon as possible.
...and...
For optimum performance, the battery cell balancing process should be performed on a regular basis (at least every 15 days). The balancing operation is automatic and is complete when the dashboard display shows 100%.
Looking at the manual for my 21kw Ribelle I only see this:
Charge the batteries of the motorcycle to 100% at least once every 15 days to balance the cells making up the battery pack correctly. If the battery cells are not balanced correctly, the charge level indicated on the display may not represent the effective state of charge of the motorcycle battery pack.
I didn't realize the draining to 0% was missing from my Ribelle's manual. Is that correct? Do I no longer need to drain it to 0% to maintain battery health? If so this is great news to me as it's always been a bit of a chore trying to gauge my SoC so I arrive home in the single digits so I could put the bike up on a rear stand and drain it the rest of the way to 0%
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Yeah I don't see any compelling reason to drain the battery to 0% ever. I think they realized it wasn't a good idea and omitted it from the current revisions.
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I think draining it to below zero SOC only helps with the calibration of the SOC. It's probably not even good for the battery, I would rather just have my SOC be a little off. I know when it's time to recharge close enough without an accurate SOC.
While I did let my Esse Esse 9 run to below 0 when I had a message on the screen, if I see that message again, I will probably just ignore it. I have only seen that message one time and I have wondered if charging at higher SOCs too often was the cause of it. I used to charge too often.
I now try to make sure I only recharge when below 30% and never in the green when possible. I have not seen that message again since I have been doing it this way.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Apparently Energica deleted that recommendation, so I do not go to 0 % on purpose anymore.
Probably Don is right, it had something to do with calibration.
Going to 0 % should not be detrimental for the battery, looking at the numbers there is a quite large safety margin included.
The nominal capacity is 21,5 kWh but real-life capacity is in the region of 16 - 17 kWh.
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Do I no longer need to drain it to 0% to maintain battery health?
I dont think it should matter for the battery health.
However i got rid of a lot of recurring messages (key not found etc) when i did. It does seem strange that it should help at all, and i have no idea if 0% is needed (could be 10 or 20% for that matter to me), but im 100% sure something was reset by doing that. It did not help on the "undefined fault" part i have seen, but i had a few other odd messages that went away along with the (daily) key not found errors. Im sure this is 100% fixable in firmware (mine was FW EN.A.002615.041, and BDY 7.0.2, DSB 234).
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Going to 0 % should not be detrimental for the battery, looking at the numbers there is a quite large safety margin included.
The nominal capacity is 21,5 kWh but real-life capacity is in the region of 16 - 17 kWh.
But a lot (most?) of that unavailable capacity is probably above 100% SOC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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100% indicated is a real capacity limit because it is not alterable by firmware, IMO.
Agreed, 0% factors a suitable safety and obsolescence margin determined by energica to ensure happy customers.
NCM benefits best (10-12yrs) when used hard but within boundaries narrower than the typical fuel gage refill limit.
Opinions are like assholes...is that how it goes?
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I've literally done it once in 20.000 km the last year and I have no SOC issues. Estimates are still reliable.
I think letting it charge up to 100% periodically is more important. I do a lot of fast charging on the road (to 80% at most) but also at least 3x a week at home to 100% overnight.
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Do I no longer need to drain it to 0% to maintain battery health?
I dont think it should matter for the battery health.
However i got rid of a lot of recurring messages (key not found etc) when i did. It does seem strange that it should help at all, and i have no idea if 0% is needed (could be 10 or 20% for that matter to me), but im 100% sure something was reset by doing that. It did not help on the "undefined fault" part i have seen, but i had a few other odd messages that went away along with the (daily) key not found errors. Im sure this is 100% fixable in firmware (mine was FW EN.A.002615.041, and BDY 7.0.2, DSB 234).
I am very disappointed in the keyless fob on my 23 ribelle :( wish I would have gone with the regular key, having to stand there and hold that button multiple times is really annoying because it never works the first time as you would expect. Wish I would have waited for a regular key frame as I initially ordered (I was told the keyless option would be faster to produce at the factory). I stand there with the fob on top of the sensor with a fresh battery, so its not user error as far as I know...
Would be nice if we could update firmware somehow myself without a dealer, I'm waiting for a dealer to show up in AZ, USA. I hear the new firmware does help with the key fob thing.
I also get the "unknown fault" error about 6 times in a row (after trying a couple times to get the key fob to recognize) before I can ride the bike.
My range is about 85 miles 100% to 0% based on my last test, which matches the average consumption and expected battery capacity. The top speed is severely limited on the last 20% or so, hard to keep up with freeway traffic sometimes, LOL. The last 10% I just ran full throttle on the freeway the whole way home and it was a strange experience for sure. Speed pulsated and fluctuated between 75-95 mph (indicated) randomly it seemed and was really slow to accelerate.
I just ran my ribelle rs to 0% and charging to 100% took exactly 14 hours 53 minutes and 35 seconds. This was on my home charger L2 in my garage with green battery and ~60 degree F temp. Not a complaint, as I don't usually get down to 0%, but found the test interesting for sure.
I'm on firmware EA.A.002835.041, BDY 7.0.2, DSB 234.
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I am very disappointed in the keyless fob on my 23 ribelle :( wish I would have gone with the regular key, having to stand there and hold that button multiple times is really annoying because it never works the first time as you would expect.
There have been threads on that problem here, but not for the 2023.
Try holding it down for two seconds, not much shorter or longer. If that doesn't work, then try shorter as well as longer, but NOT multiple times. Wait after each time until you find exactly what it wants.
The Experia PDF says (I don't have a Ribelle PDF):
"Using the E-Keyless system Switching the E-Keyless system “ON” and “OFF”. Switching the system “ON” activates the E-Keyless system and all electronic devices on the vehicle. To switch “ON”, press the E-Keyless button (1) on the ignition switch block. To switch the E-Keyless system “OFF”, turning the motorcycle and all electronic devices off, press and hold the E-Keyless button (1) on the ignition switch block for about 2 seconds"
It also says:
"IMPORTANT! The functionality of the E-Keyless system may be degraded in the following situations: • In the vicinity of structures and facilities producing powerful radio frequency emissions (telecommunications antennas, electric power stations and substations, airports etc.); • When carrying wireless communication devices or other devices producing radio frequency emissions; • In the vicinity of electrical devices (wireless keys, computers etc.) which may interfere with the radio communication of the E-Keyless system."
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I am very disappointed in the keyless fob on my 23 ribelle :( wish I would have gone with the regular key, having to stand there and hold that button multiple times is really annoying because it never works the first time as you would expect.
There have been threads on that problem here, but not for the 2023.
Try holding it down for two seconds, not much shorter or longer. If that doesn't work, then try shorter as well as longer, but NOT multiple times. Wait after each time until you find exactly what it wants.
The Experia PDF says (I don't have a Ribelle PDF):
"Using the E-Keyless system Switching the E-Keyless system “ON” and “OFF”. Switching the system “ON” activates the E-Keyless system and all electronic devices on the vehicle. To switch “ON”, press the E-Keyless button (1) on the ignition switch block. To switch the E-Keyless system “OFF”, turning the motorcycle and all electronic devices off, press and hold the E-Keyless button (1) on the ignition switch block for about 2 seconds"
It also says:
"IMPORTANT! The functionality of the E-Keyless system may be degraded in the following situations: • In the vicinity of structures and facilities producing powerful radio frequency emissions (telecommunications antennas, electric power stations and substations, airports etc.); • When carrying wireless communication devices or other devices producing radio frequency emissions; • In the vicinity of electrical devices (wireless keys, computers etc.) which may interfere with the radio communication of the E-Keyless system."
-Don- Auburn, CA
I'll try timing the 2 seconds and go from there. Appreciate the recommendation!
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Sorry to digress from the original topic but thinking about the keyless ignition issues on our Energicas, especially with the .041 firmware, I wonder if it’s an Italian thing? I remember my Ducati Diavel had issues recognizing the fob, especially at some gas stations. I wonder if Energica and Ducati are sourcing a common component or two for the keyless system.
For comparison, my Victory Cross Country Tour (OEM accessory installed after purchase) and my BMW R1200RT-LC have zero issues with the key fob. Same with my Chevy Bolt and my Ford Escape.
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When I bought my 2016 BMW R1200RS in May 2015, it came with a keyless ignition system, which I had never used before. I was concerned how it would work over time and what would happen if it stopped working while I was out in the boondocks. However, I am happy to report that the system has worked perfectly all these years and has never failed to start my bike or to lock or unlock the fork. While it does turn on the ignition almost instantly, it will take about two seconds of push before the fork lock activates. Anyway I have now converted to liking the keyless system and would be willing to buy another BMW motorcycle with that system again.
So if Energica is using the same (likely off-the-shelf) device as BMW, Ducati, etc. use then it should work OK, unless the signal generator was poorly located on the chassis or there is a glitch in the programming. ???
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I feel like there has to have been a change in later firmware versions. Before I had my Ribelle's firmware upgraded a few months ago, I rarely, if ever had issues with my key fob being seen by the bike. Ever since the firmware update, I can't leave the fob in my pants pocket, I have to hold it near the side of the bike to turn it on. In addition, it's only been post firmware upgrade that I now occasionally receive the key not in range error while riding.
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I feel like there has to have been a change in later firmware versions. Before I had my Ribelle's firmware upgraded a few months ago, I rarely, if ever had issues with my key fob being seen by the bike. Ever since the firmware update, I can't leave the fob in my pants pocket, I have to hold it near the side of the bike to turn it on. In addition, it's only been post firmware upgrade that I now occasionally receive the key not in range error while riding.
Did the update do anything useful for the bike? Would you have been better off without it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My BMW key fob needs a good brand-name battery to work well. I bought a bunch of cheap Chinese Hi Power-brand batteries and they pooped out after a couple of months. However an American name-brand battery (a CR2032, if I recall correctly) will power the fob for about three years and the keyless system always picks up the signal even from several feet away from the bike.
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My '21 Ribelle sports factory original firmware and FOB behaves as follows.
Run Mode...after bike is on, no alerts given if FOB left behind...range is never an issue to start bike.
Charge Mode...to intervene say to effect charge rate, FOB needs to be really close to steering head before bike recognizes and unlocks.
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My '21 Ribelle sports factory original firmware and FOB behaves as follows.
Run Mode...after bike is on, no alerts given if FOB left behind...range is never an issue to start bike.
Charge Mode...to intervene say to effect charge rate, FOB needs to be really close to steering head before bike recognizes and unlocks.
My keyless SS9+ RS EMCE 2021 shows the exact same behavior including the strangely reduced sensitivity in charge mode.
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I confirm the range of the keyless system is reduced when the bike is charging. I believe this is due to electric noise (EMF) generated by the charging process.
We normally store the key fobs in the seat lock when they are in the shop. With the fob in that location the bike will not recognize it when it is being charged (both AC and DC). But the bike will recognize the fob in the same position when the bike is not charging.
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Good point with the EMF interference while charging. Should this explanation hold, a new firmware would have a hard time improving the behavior of the keyless system.
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Did the update do anything useful for the bike? Would you have been better off without it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
No noticeable improvements. I would have been better off not having the latest update done.
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My BMW key fob needs a good brand-name battery to work well. I bought a bunch of cheap Chinese Hi Power-brand batteries and they pooped out after a couple of months. However an American name-brand battery (a CR2032, if I recall correctly) will power the fob for about three years and the keyless system always picks up the signal even from several feet away from the bike.
I’ve tried a few brands and there is no improvement in the keyless system’s ability to pick up the signal at all. Again, this is only after the .041 update. Prior to this, I had no issues which is why I still firmly believe it’s a firmware issue.
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I’ve tried a few brands and there is no improvement in the keyless system’s ability to pick up the signal at all. Again, this is only after the .041 update. Prior to this, I had no issues which is why I still firmly believe it’s a firmware issue.
I always check the battery voltage before installing batteries in FOBs and such. I find several weak new ones from various brands.
-Don-
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Taking the battery down to zero percent is kind of asking for trouble. A real quick slip and it's undercharged and now dendrites are forming and you are causing great grief in your battery pack.
There is no real NEED to do it. Balancing happens on the top end of the battery. You do NOT need to discharge it to balance it, the balancing happens at the upper end. Ideally a balancing cell should be active ALL THE TIME. When working properly, they would draw milliamps when idle and keep the battery cell voltages within 50 mv of each other on a very tight equalization. it's essentially a wheatstone bridge, and as soon as one of the cells dips a bit, the bridge unbalances and current trickles to the low from the highers to balance them all. Typically a 5 amp current can flow with a beefier balancer. It does its thing and turns off, run the bike hard for a few minutes, minimal inbalance, the balancer trickles it back to balance, shuts off. it should be for the most part, an out of site out of mind device.
Pushing batteries to zero and 100 is not good to be honest. it stresses them. going to 80 percent charge would be the 'center' range, so from 10 percfent to 90 percent of capacity. is where you run them at for the better longevity stats. If you ran it even 70 you'd get probably double your cycles again out of the battery.
Also you have to remember with lithium. A cycle is a FULL CYCLE . NiCd NiMh, you run it down 30 percent and back up, that's a cycle, down 50 percent back up, thats a cycle. down 70 percent recharge, thats a cycle. down 5 percent up to top. THAT is a cycle.
With Lithium tech now, you run it down 30 percent and back up. that'd 30 percent of a cycle. down 50 percent and back up, thats an additional 50 percent for 80 total percent cycle now. now down 70 and back up, thats now 1.5 cycles total now... instead of 3. It's a much better chemistry in many ways here.
Hope this is not clear as mud... If anyone cares, Ivce been doing solar / batteries since 1986, way back before it became cool and was just nerdy,so have a small idea what I am talking about.
Aaron
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Taking the battery down to zero percent is kind of asking for trouble. A real quick slip and it's undercharged and now dendrites are forming and you are causing great grief in your battery pack.
There is no real NEED to do it. Balancing happens on the top end of the battery. You do NOT need to discharge it to balance it, the balancing happens at the upper end. Ideally a balancing cell should be active ALL THE TIME. When working properly, they would draw milliamps when idle and keep the battery cell voltages within 50 mv of each other on a very tight equalization. it's essentially a wheatstone bridge, and as soon as one of the cells dips a bit, the bridge unbalances and current trickles to the low from the highers to balance them all. Typically a 5 amp current can flow with a beefier balancer. It does its thing and turns off, run the bike hard for a few minutes, minimal inbalance, the balancer trickles it back to balance, shuts off. it should be for the most part, an out of site out of mind device.
Pushing batteries to zero and 100 is not good to be honest. it stresses them. going to 80 percent charge would be the 'center' range, so from 10 percfent to 90 percent of capacity. is where you run them at for the better longevity stats. If you ran it even 70 you'd get probably double your cycles again out of the battery.
Also you have to remember with lithium. A cycle is a FULL CYCLE . NiCd NiMh, you run it down 30 percent and back up, that's a cycle, down 50 percent back up, thats a cycle. down 70 percent recharge, thats a cycle. down 5 percent up to top. THAT is a cycle.
With Lithium tech now, you run it down 30 percent and back up. that'd 30 percent of a cycle. down 50 percent and back up, thats an additional 50 percent for 80 total percent cycle now. now down 70 and back up, thats now 1.5 cycles total now... instead of 3. It's a much better chemistry in many ways here.
Hope this is not clear as mud... If anyone cares, Ivce been doing solar / batteries since 1986, way back before it became cool and was just nerdy,so have a small idea what I am talking about.
Aaron
AFAIK, the only reason to discharge it and charge to full is to calibrate the SOC%. I used to charge far too often, and I often got that message.
I don't get range anxiety as much as I used to, and I now always try to charge back up when in the red or low yellow when possible. Since I have been doing such, I have not seen that message again.
Notice in just about any laptop computer manual, they say to do the same thing, discharge until the battery is dead and then fully charge to calibrate your time left or the SOC %. Other than that, it has nothing to do with the battery life, balancing, etc.
It's probably not really necessary to get to the limp mode, I don't like that idea either. Just get it low enough that you're sure you can get to home (or wherever) to get a full charge. But it probably will calibrate a little better to get down to 0 SOC.
SOC calibration is a lot more useful than the range left shown. Best to not ever even look at that!
-Don- Reno, NV
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From my understanding the older models would prompt you to do so. Haven't seen that myself since I never owned one.
On my 2021 21,5 kWh model I've never been prompted to do so. I've seen other messages but never to ride it empty. So I don't think it's still needed. Otherwise the prompt would still be there.
Apart from that I believe it's a good idea to do it once just to get a feel of what happens with the bike in that state.