ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Pics and Vids => Topic started by: NEW2elec on October 02, 2022, 07:22:31 PM
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From Fully Charged comes a look at GAC Aion a Chinese car brand who is showing off their 3C cells and claiming their 6C cells are almost ready.
So the current standard charging rate is 1C which is why most EVs go from 0-85ish% in, you guessed it, 1 hour. Balance time and throttle back points aside.
If we take, in theory, a 20kWh pack with 6C cells and have a 120kw charging station then you could recharge in 6 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taehg2rZBpY
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I was curious what current vehicles can do, unless I'm messing something up it seems like a Taycan can already do nearly 3C and an Ioniq 5 can do 4.5C.
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I've not seen anything else do 30-80 in 10 mins. If you have some video of that I'd be interested in seeing it.
I know the Audi E Tron had a setup that wouldn't give the owner access to below 20% or above 80% of the true battery so when you charge up the shown 0-100 has no cut back to simulate a gas pump style steady speed. Of course you paid for 40% of battery you could never use.
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6C describes a 10 minute charge, not 6 minute. It's 60/X = charge time where X is your C rating value. 1C = 60, 2C = 30, 3C = 20, 4C = 15, 5C = 12, 6C = 10, etc.
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I'm just going off the specs:
Taycan - 93.4kW/h at 270kW = 2.9C (there's also a lower capacity model that would be 3.4C if it can also do 270kW)
Ioniq 5 - 77.4kW/h at 350kW = 4.5C (likewise they also have a lower capacity model, however they spec the same charge time at a 350kW station)
Hyundai also say 18 minutes to 80%, assuming that's from 0% then maybe 30-80% is possible in 10 minutes or close to it.
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Morgan you are right I thought it was 6 X the batteries Capacity but it's set to time instead. I guess I could wait 4 more minutes.
The car in the video had their 3C cells and charged 30-80 in 10mins which should make there 6C about 5min and their hinted at 12C in maybe 2-3 mins.
Very much game changing for EVs and game ending for gas.
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But where can you find a charging station that will charge that fast? And if it uses a battery storage system as a buffer, how long with that battery take to recover so that it is ready for the next charge?
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There's quite a few >100kW stations popping up around the UK. In generally boring places mind.
Cas :)
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In my neck of the woods when a company like Electrify America installs a bank of stations there will be 2 150kW stations and 2 high power 350kW stations. If you look on their site or get their email updates they're SUPER EXCITED because they have this AMAZING NEW PLAN to highlight and make it obvious which are the high powered stations. Hold your breath, people. Wait for it. Are you ready?
STICKERS.
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But where can you find a charging station that will charge that fast?
Is 350 KW CCS fast enough (https://electricmobility.efacec.com/high-power-ultra-fast-charging-station-350-kw/)?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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From Fully Charged comes a look at GAC Aion a Chinese car brand who is showing off their 3C cells and claiming their 6C cells are almost ready.
So the current standard charging rate is 1C which is why most EVs go from 0-85ish% in, you guessed it, 1 hour. Balance time and throttle back points aside.
If we take, in theory, a 20kWh pack with 6C cells and have a 120kw charging station then you could recharge in 6 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taehg2rZBpY
truly impressive, and the idea of faster charging times is certainly exciting. The GAC Aion's 6C cells, if they live up to their potential, could revolutionize the way we charge our EVs. The ability to recharge a 20kWh pack in just 6 minutes would be a game changer, making long distance travel much more convenient and feasible.
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But where can you find a charging station that will charge that fast? And if it uses a battery storage system as a buffer, how long with that battery take to recover so that it is ready for the next charge?
I have actually been looking into these and asking questions about it etc.
This all depends on many variables, and many user settings.
It of course depends on how much power you can put INTO the thing. If you can feed it 480 vac at 1000 amps then it'll scream on a recharge possibly even a charge. If you can only supply it with 240 mains at 100 amp or so, then do the math on how much you just took out to charge the last vehicle.
They also offer options of internal battery recharge based on tou or load shaving or limiting intake to xx amps.
So to kind of answer your question, if you can feed it hot enough, you may not even need to really touch the internal battery, if you can't then it may charge a few vehicles then take the rest of the day to charge up the rest of them at 240 vac / 100 amp input.
Currently I am looking for a DC fast charger that I can put in my house, or possibly even other means' on it, however for even a starting one of 24 kw, that will take 240 volt input at 100 amp for 24 kilowatt charging capability.. you are looking at 10 grand starting price. Which, I guess if you just spent 25 on a bike, then it's not too HORRIBLY expensive but I still had to say ugh on that.
Aaron
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Sorry for all the necromancer posts, but I'm relatively new to the forum.
any whoooo....
Does anyone know the specs on the Super 73 C1X? It's a small pack but they did a CCS demonstration of 10%-80% in 15 minutes.
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The overall question is, at what price?
They ALL can take a charge that fast, honestly.... but at what price?
Heat is the limiting factor, if you can keep the heat down then you can charge harder. GE uses a scheme on their LCI's that has water flowing thru the core of the Xformer and around the main power SCR's to keep the temps down. But anyways.,
Batteries are a chemistry thing. How many times can you re arrange the atoms on that sheet of plate.. before it's trashed?
Oh hey look I got an RC car battery that can do 150 C !! that bitch will charge up in about 3 minutes !!. Now, you have to store it in a special bag in case it goes poof because of the stress you put it under doing that, and is only good for about 50 runs or so before it's degrading badly.
I have also seen a lot of chatter about some 'just around the corner' sodium cells that are like 6x more powerful, 4x higher current capacity and like half the size and weight. There are other chemistries out there too that they say are 'promising'
They also have ON the market now, Id call them Capacitor batteries. It's a HUGE farad valued capacitor that can put out 10 KW hour of stored energy. Can push like 400 amps thru it and they say last a million cycles! A bit heavy and expensive tho, BUT on a semi, this would be kind of a moot point sort of. What is the dielectric strength tho, can it handle 400 - 600, and I think some of the Chevy's are looking at even around an 840 volt bus in the future!!
The C rate is just one of the MANY specs that make up a battery, a battery pack, AND a power train, and it is NOT the most important aspect either! They make it popular so they can yap the buzz words and the the sheeple all excited but it's just one tiny slice of the product.
Like with projectors / video back in the day. OOOohhh it's 1080 P !!!! HERE TAKE MY MONEY I WANT IT !!!!.... well, what's the bandwidth it can handle? huh? yah, go away. Today 4k is the magic number and Ive seen some 8k stuff being demo'd.. but the bottom line is, you really need to know the rest of the things specs to see if it's actually a good product or not.
Maybe someone comes out with a hybrid of caps and batteries., When you romp on it, the caps give you your 50c for the ten seconds you need to get up to where you need, then the batteries take over at a normal rate to keep you at cruising speed, and to recharge the cap for the next hot run..... possibilities all over.
Aaron
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Sorry for all the necromancer posts, but I'm relatively new to the forum.
any whoooo....
Does anyone know the specs on the Super 73 C1X? It's a small pack but they did a CCS demonstration of 10%-80% in 15 minutes.
The specs aren't finalized. That is to say they haven't settled on the pack design. The video you saw was VERY MUCH a tech demo which is why it used CHADEMO; that tiny demo pack was below 200vdc and very much a proof of concept. The plan is to use CCS and they definitely plan to do 3C charging, but they're still making decisions. What I do know is that having the bike both be capable of sustained 75mph in LA freeway traffic and being able to charge to 80% in 15 minutes is essential in the eyes of the CEO. If he can't get the bike to do those benchmarks he will scrap the project.
Should also note that he's an electric motorcyclist himself, having previously owned a Zero S, Energica EVA107, and a Ribelle.
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Interesting thing about CCS chargers. They seem to either be in a 100 to 500 volt output range or a 200 to 900ish / 1000 volt range.
For those looking for chargers, make sure that the one you get can go as high as your pack. With the bikes, the lesser / lesser expensive one will do just fine, but for those who may be thinking of using it for their cars too, make sure it can reach the upper voltage of the cars pack.
Interesting question though, I have NO idea, as there are so many chargers / batteries out there now, but lets say you had one that ran from say 480 volts to like 560 volts. Would the lesser charger just top off and say ok that's all I can do ir would it just say No can do period?
Aaron
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my concern is battery chemistry. if it's as explosive as some of the li-ion batteries being used currently I'm not interested.
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To somewhat answer my own question. ive been tinkering and talking to tesla a bit.
the old chargers won't charge a newer battery UNLESS it's system is designed like the tesla / gm to go from lower power older chargers to the higher voltage systems. The Tesla and id presume the GE shit, has a built in boost/buck converter so that yes even though the older standard CCS1 charger will only top out at 500 volts, their vehicles WILL work on that, will take it and convert to the 820 volts the cyber truck battery is running at. obviously there are some losses with an extra conversion step, and heat, but the system will work. if you are diy'ing it, then no the lower volt charger won't charge even partially a higher rated volt pack, as it'd just fault out.
I am seriously looking at getting a cyber truck and after talking to my accountant, think i may be able to write it almost entirely off on my business. yes i still pay for it but it's reimbursed from tax burden, which means just chaching the 401 and flip the taxes paid back into your pocket - or truck. then reinvest 401 into normal account that is already tax paid on, so from that point forward, only interest is taxable, but that's workable too....
anyways...
with that and my charger for the bike, was wondering if it'd work properly. yes it does. i can even use the tesla to charge my bike, and sleep in too at the track. ill sleep up front, put the buzzard in the back if he gets too pesty. hot diggity, time to go racing nation wide now. once my crap is healed up.
Aaron
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To somewhat answer my own question. ive been tinkering and talking to tesla a bit.
the old chargers won't charge a newer battery UNLESS it's system is designed like the tesla / gm to go from lower power older chargers to the higher voltage systems. The Tesla and id presume the GE shit, has a built in boost/buck converter so that yes even though the older standard CCS1 charger will only top out at 500 volts, their vehicles WILL work on that, will take it and convert to the 820 volts the cyber truck battery is running at. obviously there are some losses with an extra conversion step, and heat, but the system will work. if you are diy'ing it, then no the lower volt charger won't charge even partially a higher rated volt pack, as it'd just fault out.
I am seriously looking at getting a cyber truck and after talking to my accountant, think i may be able to write it almost entirely off on my business. yes i still pay for it but it's reimbursed from tax burden, which means just chaching the 401 and flip the taxes paid back into your pocket - or truck. then reinvest 401 into normal account that is already tax paid on, so from that point forward, only interest is taxable, but that's workable too....
anyways...
with that and my charger for the bike, was wondering if it'd work properly. yes it does. i can even use the tesla to charge my bike, and sleep in too at the track. ill sleep up front, put the buzzard in the back if he gets too pesty. hot diggity, time to go racing nation wide now. once my crap is healed up.
Aaron
Out of curiosity, why a Cybertruck over something like a Ford Lightning? I know the latter wasn’t very well received, either, but I thought it was better put-together than a Cybertruck?
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are the ford lightnings even available yet / anymore. really don't hear much about them really. i like the ac power module / feedback the tesla has that i don't think lightning has. not too keen on the stainless, that is going to be a FFN (forever fkn nightmare) trying to keep clean smudge free. but one could easily sleep in the thing at the track etc, cook out of it, among many other things where power would be needed.
I sell coffee online, and i set up my coffee roaster at the track to provide coffee for folks for free and of course sell roasted too. with the tesla being able to put out 11kw i think it is, or 9 kw, that will easily power my roaster and get a good charge on the bike too.
Aaron
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You can find a F-150 Lightning, FAR better than the falling apart Cybertruck. The Rivian is better than the Ford and the same cost of the ugly Tesla.
Then there is the impressive Slate coming very soon - https://www.slate.auto/en
I have a 2025 Ioniq 6 Limited (800V) that on a 350kW charger that will add about 200 miles in 15 min., 100 miles in about 5 min. and 10-80% in about 20 min. Damn fine car BTW. I happily sold my '18 Tesla M3 dual motor.
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I believe the Lightning puts out 7 kW of L2 power. I met someone at an electric meetup a couple years ago who had one and charged his Zero with it.
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I was looking at the Rivian very keenly too. Then all the fiasco with it, and their constant, oh look a new shiny object WEEEeeee!!! stuff, instead of fixing known issues, kind of turned me off. Also the fact that Tesla dealer and repair center is right down the road, and rivian is a 4 hour drive for a service center, never mind an actual dealer so I can kick tires... no thanks.
I've asked Tesla many high level tech kind of questions and they answered me right away, Rivian was more of an annoyed, well maybe call this number, only to get a run around from someone reading a script, and did you hug your maple tree today!!! ... not impressed.
I was also looking at that one, the work horse? forget the name of the company but they never came to fruition sadly.
I'll check out that slate link. thank you !!
Aaron
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Silverado and Denali EV trucks can push 10kw V2V at up to 400volts through the CCS port. Also has a kick ass AC output at 120 and 240 volts. Hertz is unloading Silverado EV work truck 3T and 4T for a song right now.
Just saying.
Take that to the track. Charge the Ego at 10KW between sessions and have enough AC capacity to run a welder, or coffee roaster. Early ads for the Silverado EV mentioned some kind of "Dual Channel" thing where you could hook it up to a J1772 and it would still be able to push all the DC and AC outputs while continually accepting the AC charge from the Jplug.
Also has V2L capability so you can get a GM branded bidirectional charger and run your house on a 205KWH "power wall" you can drive around when you want to.
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i'll have to check into hertz now that you mention it.
That slate. hmm i don't know. sounds like it's going to be the next Yugo, and with only 1000 lb towing capacity, that's pretty weak, i couldn't even tow my bike! bike 570 lb charger 160 lb trailer ehh 600 ish maybe more? yah, were overloaded already and I ain't even got my beer in there yet!!
Aaron
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i'll have to check into hertz now that you mention it.
Aaron
Better hurry, word got out, There's only 3 left
https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-cars-for-sale.htm?compositeType=new&geoRadius=0&geoZip=32789&make=Chevrolet&model=Silverado%20EV
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im already talking to them. theres 1 right in orlando. people were not very knowledgeable when i called on the phone. i want to pull a chapter 179 on it, but the bed might not be long enough, needs to be 6 foot for the full rebate. hoping i can get it with the heavy work truck moniker, waiting to see what the accountant has to say
aaron
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so, i can't use the 179 to full advantage due to the bed size being just an eek too small. that really sucks ass, then again ge never cared anyways, they lose billions they get fed by government bailouts.
if i trade in my 2017 ill pay 31k for this truck. a 2024 with a few k miles on it.
anyone heard of any issues with the electric silverado's at all yet?
aaron