ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NEW2elec on October 01, 2022, 08:16:05 AM
-
Here's Bill from the EV Rider channel talking about Zero's 107 million from Polaris.
Plus it's the first time I've heard a sells figure. About 20k bikes so not bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXhrQKYRvLQ
-
Here's Bill from the EV Rider channel talking about Zero's 107 million from Polaris.Plus it's the first time I've heard a sells figure. About 20k bikes so not bad.
I am not sure if that is good news or not.
Here in the Reno area, J-1772 is everywhere and free. CCS is VERY unreliable. Many stations broken for around a year (such as the only CCS in Fallon, NV)
I take my 2017 Zero SR and charge it at 8 KW (sometimes I hog two J-plugs). That's almost three times the charge rate of my Energica on J-1772.
So I take my Zero where J-1772 is more common and my Energica where CCS is more common.
What I am afraid will happen is if Zero goes to CCS, they will only have 3KW AC chargers--if not as bad as Harley and have a useless 1.4 KW AC charger. If they can have CCS and at least a 6KW AC charger then they will really have something worth looking into.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
I already knew it : the last digits of your bike's VIN is the number of units sold.
My old Zero XU 2011 was #44. My 2021 SRF et 17200. What about yours ?
-
Here in the Reno area, J-1772 is everywhere and free. CCS is VERY unreliable. Many stations broken for around a year (such as the only CCS in Fallon, NV)
I take my 2017 Zero SR and charge it at 8 KW (sometimes I hog two J-plugs). That's almost three times the charge rate of my Energica on J-1772.
So I take my Zero where J-1772 is more common and my Energica where CCS is more common.
What I am afraid will happen is if Zero goes to CCS, they will only have 3KW AC chargers--if not as bad as Harley and have a useless 1.4 KW AC charger. If they can have CCS and at least a 6KW AC charger then they will really have something worth looking into.
-Don- Reno, NV
Well, since Zero has a ~6kw AC charger already in a 'charge tank' package, I would assume if they went CCS they would keep 1 6.6kw AC charger. Imagine Zero's new DSR/X with CCS and a 6.6kw option. That motorcycle would be far more tempting.
Which makes me wonder why Energica hasn't upgraded to a 6kw charger. Is it just a size issue? Or does Zero have some sort of monopoly on the system?
I've always been curious as to what components are added to a motorcycle to enable CCS beyond the charge port. Do you need some big charging hardware for CCS? My understanding is it's a direct line into the pack and the 'charger' is the actual charge station you pull up to.
-
Here in the Reno area, J-1772 is everywhere and free. CCS is VERY unreliable. Many stations broken for around a year (such as the only CCS in Fallon, NV)
I take my 2017 Zero SR and charge it at 8 KW (sometimes I hog two J-plugs). That's almost three times the charge rate of my Energica on J-1772.
So I take my Zero where J-1772 is more common and my Energica where CCS is more common.
What I am afraid will happen is if Zero goes to CCS, they will only have 3KW AC chargers--if not as bad as Harley and have a useless 1.4 KW AC charger. If they can have CCS and at least a 6KW AC charger then they will really have something worth looking into.
-Don- Reno, NV
Well, since Zero has a ~6kw AC charger already in a 'charge tank' package, I would assume if they went CCS they would keep 1 6.6kw AC charger. Imagine Zero's new DSR/X with CCS and a 6.6kw option. That motorcycle would be far more tempting.
Which makes me wonder why Energica hasn't upgraded to a 6kw charger. Is it just a size issue? Or does Zero have some sort of monopoly on the system?
I've always been curious as to what components are added to a motorcycle to enable CCS beyond the charge port. Do you need some big charging hardware for CCS? My understanding is it's a direct line into the pack and the 'charger' is the actual charge station you pull up to.
I'm pretty sure that's the way it works, technically using the Anderson port on the older Zeros with the Quiq charger (or anything else you can cobble together) is pretty much the same thing. You could in theory use a Chademo to Anderson adapter if you're lucky enough to find a station that goes down to a low enough voltage. Whether Zero could keep the same level of AC charging would just depend on how large the chargers would be for them to support the higher voltage, perhaps someone could check out some of the OEMs to see what they offer.
-
I've always been curious as to what components are added to a motorcycle to enable CCS beyond the charge port. Do you need some big charging hardware for CCS? My understanding is it's a direct line into the pack and the 'charger' is the actual charge station you pull up to.
I would assume nothing other than some high voltage high current wiring to the battery's BMS (which is inside the battery). I cannot see any need for anything else as I think the CCS charger's FW figures out what to do from there.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
AFAIK, CCS minimum voltage is 200V and the Zero's battery tops out at ~116V so this could be achieved in two ways: Completely redesign the drivetrain to run more than 200V, or use a DC-capable charger that would accept 110/230V AC for level 2 chargers or 200v and upwards DC for level 3 charging. Since CCS appears to use a direct battery connection, the DC-DC option is not as simple as it sounds... Sure hope they'll incorporate CCS, it would make the pool of motorcycles i'd consider for the next bikes a bit bigger.
-
Wouldn't Zero need a new high voltage motor and battery pack if they wanted to start using CCS?
-
Wouldn't Zero need a new high voltage motor and battery pack if they wanted to start using CCS?
They would have to redesign the entire bike, IMO. At least all the electrical stuff. Different motor, different battery, different DC2DCC, different MBB and more.
But perhaps now is a good time for them to start such a project.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
The guess is they will use a DC-DC converter to get it to work.
-
The guess is they will use a DC-DC converter to get it to work.
You mean with their old battery? That would have to be a large DC2DCC and it would have to let the Commnications from the BMS to get to the charger somehow. And there will be some other issues. I kinda doubt they will do that. They should start with a higher voltage battery, IMO.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
The guess is they will use a DC-DC converter to get it to work.
Could add a fair bit of weight and require some space. As an example I found a 15kW converter that would do the trick and it weighs 20kg and is quite large. It may be a bit oversized for the requirements though. Also it's liquid cooled and 94% efficient, that means at full capacity it's got to get rid of nearly 1kW of heat.
https://www.zekalabs.com/products/isolated-power-converters/dc-dc-isolated-converter-15kw-450v
-
Could add a fair bit of weight and require some space. As an example I found a 15kW converter that would do the trick and it weighs 20kg and is quite large. It may be a bit oversized for the requirements though. Also it's liquid cooled and 94% efficient, that means at full capacity it's got to get rid of nearly 1kW of heat.
Yep, which more battery cells could make better use of than wasting 6% in heat.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier? Comms are weird for ccs but done over the CP line and there's plenty of stuff out there to do that, and there must be existing circuitry to read the old CP stuff and pass that to the chargers/bms.
-
Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier? Comms are weird for ccs but done over the CP line and there's plenty of stuff out there to do that, and there must be existing circuitry to read the old CP stuff and pass that to the chargers/bms.
Well if you only wanted like 1.3kW or 6.6kW then the DC-DC converter would probably be similar in size to the existing OBCs (if that's the point you were trying to make), but then you're not gaining anything unless there are no AC chargers where you are and DC is your only option. Perhaps there exists a device that can pull double duty as an AC charger and DC-DC convertor.
-
I expect your right and something to do 20kW or more would be pretty chunky. The newer bikes can do 12kW AC with upgrades so I would have thought at least that in dc must be doable, assuming it's possible to have something that can do both jobs. I don't see why the rectifier can't be separate but I only have a rudimentary knowledge of power electronics.
-
It could certainly be done, just nobody's really ever seen a need to do it before now.
Honestly though I think Zero need to start work on their next-gen powertrain to be ready in the next 3-5 years, 400V and liquid cooled, no doubt requiring a reduction gear on the motor too.
Cas :)
-
Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier? Comms are weird for ccs but done over the CP line and there's plenty of stuff out there to do that, and there must be existing circuitry to read the old CP stuff and pass that to the chargers/bms.
What does "it" refer to in above?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Sorry, was thinking as I typed that. "It" was a DCDC convertor. Unless, as has just occured to me, they tranform then rectify. Probably best to ignore my ramblings and I should try to type fully formed thoughts.
-
Wouldn't it basically be the ac charger without a rectifier?
No! CCS is incredibly complicated. 3-phase industrial AC input, very fancy complicated program, very large DC power supply, etc.
-Don- Donnor Summit, CA (getting a free CCS charge to my Energica)
-
CCS is only complicated from the EVSE's point of view, from the vehicle it's a lot less complicated. AFAICR it uses powerline ethernet to establish a vehicle connection, the vehicle handshakes on a current and a voltage and off it goes. Along the handshakes following, the vehicle reports SoC and current/voltage adjustments and that's it.
Electronically it can all be done. Most chargers rectify the 'raw' AC, then generate a high(ish) frequency for transformation, then re-rectify to DC for charging. The input of most switching power supplies (Which a charger mostly is) is DC capable because of this. Since Zero's chargers work from 110-230V it might be possible to convince a CCS station to give out 200/230V and feed it to the chargers. This was one of the paths I travelled to get ChaDeMo to go when Zero decided to stop supporting it, but then CCS took over and I gave up because of the rather involved way of handshaking.
And thats where the trouble starts; Since CCS expects a battery on the DC terminals and not a charger, some magic has to be done to convince the CCS to start.
-
It is effectively powerline comms but it uses the CP line rather than the power lines to talk over.
-
CCS is only complicated from the EVSE's point of view, from the vehicle it's a lot less complicated.
I am not so sure about that. What is being done during the initiation process before the CCS charger will even start charging? There is obvious communication between the bike and CCS to set the CCS charger for your battery. Looking at stuff such as your voltage, battery temp, SOC and I am fairly sure a bit more than that.
Never walk away from a CCS charger until it gets past the initiation process. Failures there are probably a bit higher than 50% depending on which CCS charger is used. Some are much better than others. It often helps to NOT follow the instructions, especially the "plug in first" part, but there are a few that require such and will NEVER work if you don't, such as the one at Donnor Summit West Bound that I used yesterday. Will ONLY work when plugged in first. I have tried both ways several times. Always needed to plug those in first. But perhaps most are the opposite, regardless of what the instructions say on the charger.
I have never had CCS stop after it got past that initiation process, but before the initiation process completes, failures are the norm and have to reconnect again. Otten works on the 2nd or third try. I sure wish there was a way to restart without disconnecting the cable. It's often a hassle.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
In case anyone was wondering, here's a design guide for CCS:
https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf (https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf)
-
In case anyone was wondering, here's a design guide for CCS:
https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf (https://tesla.o.auroraobjects.eu/Design_Guide_Combined_Charging_System_V3_1_1.pdf)
Thanks for that! I think that kinda shows CCS isn't all that simple.
Where did you find such info?
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Not that its gospel, but my dealer said Zero has no intention to go CCS anytime soon.
I don't see them doing it until the next major refresh. So the question becomes - how long are they going to ride out the SR* platform. 10 years?
I was hoping maybe there would be a significant platform change around 2024 or 2025. In all of the Exro interviews I've watched, they say their target to have their product installed in the Zero bikes was that time frame.
Thats what I'm dragging my feet on. I want to see what the next two years brings. Then I'll decide between another Zero - or whether I move to Energica or if its an option by then a Ducati.
-
Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. ???
-
Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. ???
It's a lot more than just the battery. They will need to change everything electrical in the bike to run from the higher voltage.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
Thats what I'm dragging my feet on. I want to see what the next two years brings. Then I'll decide between another Zero - or whether I move to Energica or if its an option by then a Ducati.
Triumph may be coming out with something interesting as well....https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-4 (https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-4)
-
Perhaps they will update their power train to a higher voltage that will accommodate CCS when one of their EV partners, like Polaris or some future investor, requests that they do so and is willing to foot the bill. ???
It's a lot more than just the battery. They will need to change everything electrical in the bike to run from the higher voltage.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Perhaps I should have said the entire power train, which would include the battery pack, the motor, the controller, BMS, MBB, and other systems needed to operate high voltage components. Doing that will take big bucks, but it will have to happen some day, especially once the market finally heats up.
Right now Zero bikes are fine for commuting and day trips, just not for long-distance touring. But maybe that is just not a market sector that they feel is worth the investment to get into. ???
-
Triumph may be coming out with something interesting as well....https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-4 (https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/for-the-ride/brand/project-triumph-te-1/phase-4)
Ah, yes. The proof of concept bike that they immediately said, "Well we're definitely not making this. We just proved a point by making this one-off. Electric motorcycles aren't even viable for another decade. Peace out."
-
Ah, yes. The proof of concept bike that they immediately said, "Well we're definitely not making this. We just proved a point by making this one-off. Electric motorcycles aren't even viable for another decade. Peace out."
Why do they bother to build a concept bike when they have no intent to sell it? Seems like a FWOTAM to me.
-Don- Auburn, CA
-
yes
-
Ah, yes. The proof of concept bike that they immediately said, "Well we're definitely not making this. We just proved a point by making this one-off. Electric motorcycles aren't even viable for another decade. Peace out."
Why do they bother to build a concept bike when they have no intent to sell it? Seems like a FWOTAM to me.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I think it might have had something to do with free money from the UK government. ;)
-
I think it might have had something to do with free money from the UK government. ;)
I guess their government knows how to waste taxpayer's money almost as well as ours. :(
-Don- Auburn, CA