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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 05, 2022, 03:55:32 AM
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My 2018 S has always had an odd feature. When charging with the OBC, if I allow it to run until the charging light turns solid and then pull the plug after about 10 minutes, the light will continue to shine until I turn on the ignition, at which point I will get two clicks upon turning off the ignition and the light will finally go off. If I just happen to catch it and disconnect the power cord shortly after the charging program ends then I will hear a click and the charging light will go off as it should. I have watched the power draw using the Kill-A-Watt meter and it will drop from 1300+ watts to 4 watts in a couple of seconds without tapering off once the charging light stops blinking.
However, when I charge using the DeltaQ, which charges at a little over 1000 watts, when the bike's green charging light stops blinking, the power draw to the DeltaQ will slowly decrease in steps down to around 350 watts for another half hour or so, after the charging light turns solid and the power will drop to 4 watts. I assume the battery pack cells are being balanced during that time, Upon disconnecting its power plug, the charging light goes off without a click (that I can hear).
It is kind of odd that the two chargers would seem to charge the battery pack differently. It makes me wonder if the DeltaQ bypasses the bike's BMS, which on my bike seems to have a quirk in its programming that causes the green charging light to stay of after the OBC shuts down. ???
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No, it does not bypass the BMS. The two units do, however send the charge signal in an entirely different way. The OBC has an orange-faced rectangular plug with like 24 pins in that I've always head referred to as the MXJ connector. It allows the OBC to interface with the CAN lines. There are also two lines on there that send the bike's enable signal to put it into charge mode and enable cell balancing, etc. The BMS does cell balancing, so the idea of the DeltaQ bypassing it doesn't fly there.
The Delta Q plugs into the bike's Aux port, the large brown SBS75XBRN Anderson plug to the left of the rear shock. If you look closely you'll see two small pins in between the large DC leads. These are the Aux enable pins that send the charge signal to the bike go let the BMS know the bike is in charge mode and balance when appropriate.
The difference between these two signals is that the OBC's CAN interface allows the bike to be 'woken up' by attaching a power cable even if the bike is off, and initiate a charge. You cannot do that with the Aux enable signal pins. That's why if you have your bike turned off you can't simply plug in the Delta Q and have it charge. Bike has to be on first, then turn on the Delta Q which will establish an enable signal, and then you can key the bike off and walk away.
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That is what I do and it works perfectly. :) I just don't understand why the OBC shuts down without tapering the charge like the DeltaQ does. And why the green charge light will stay on forever when topped off with the OBC unless I turn the ignition on and then back off again. Very strange. My old 2014 S never did that. I might add that this is my second OBC and it is a new model, but both the old version and the new one would keep the blinking green charge light on once it turned a solid green. So there must be something going on with the programming of the BMS on my bike. ???
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That is what I do and it works perfectly. :) I just don't understand why the OBC shuts down without tapering the charge like the DeltaQ does. And why the green charge light will stay on forever when topped off with the OBC unless I turn the ignition on and then back off again. Very strange. My old 2014 S never did that. I might add that this is my second OBC and it is a new model, but both the old version and the new one would keep the blinking green charge light on once it turned a solid green. So there must be something going on with the programming of the BMS on my bike. ???
Both my Zeros will have a solid on green light when the charge is completed. It will blink until the charge is completed and then stays on solid.
This "tapering down" of the DeltalQ, can you describe that better? Mine either charges with the top green light on or else stops charging with the bottom two lights flashing. IIRC, the bottom one stays on solid and the one just above blinks. The other lights only are on for a fraction of a second when I start the DeltaQ charge when the OBC is on.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That is what I do and it works perfectly. :) I just don't understand why the OBC shuts down without tapering the charge like the DeltaQ does. And why the green charge light will stay on forever when topped off with the OBC unless I turn the ignition on and then back off again. Very strange. My old 2014 S never did that. I might add that this is my second OBC and it is a new model, but both the old version and the new one would keep the blinking green charge light on once it turned a solid green. So there must be something going on with the programming of the BMS on my bike. ???
Both my Zeros will have a solid on green light when the charge is completed. It will blink until the charge is completed and then stays on solid.
This "tapering down" of the DeltalQ, can you describe that better? Mine either charges with the top green light on or else stops charging with the bottom two lights flashing. IIRC, the bottom one stays on solid and the one just above blinks. The other lights only are on for a fraction of a second when I start the DeltaQ charge when the OBC is on.
-Don- Reno, NV
I have only tried charging with both the DeltaQ and the OBC at the same time once. While it worked fine and charged the bike almost twice as fast as the OBC alone, when disconnecting the power cords to both chargers the green light on the dash continued to stay on until I cycled the ignition on and off and got the good old double click. That was just a test run for me as I have never needed to fast charge my Zero since I only use it for local day trips and can recharge it early the next morning before going on another ride the following day.
Regarding the DeltaQ charging indicator lights, they are kind of fun to watch. When bulk charging I get a solid amber light. When the charge indicates 100% on the dash, the green light turns on above the amber light, which also stays on. Then the 100% charge light starts flashing on the DeltaQ and the power draw starts dropping. When that happens the dash charging light stops blinking and turns a solid green. The DeltaQ instructions say that the charger has now completed the "absorption phase" and is in the "finish phase". During that phase the power from the wall drops from 1000 watts to 850 watts, to 650 watts then to 350 watts until the power drops to 4 watts and all of the green and amber lights on the DeltaQ become solid. The "finish phase" lasts for about 20-30 minutes after the charge light on the dash turns a solid green.
I once left the DeltaQ connected for an hour after it had fully charged the bike and shut off. That was when I noticed a flashing red light, along with the yellow and green lights, indicating a "charging error", which worried me until I pulled the plug and the all of the lights turned off. Once I did that everything was OK and the green charge light on the dash went out without needing to cycle the ignition. So I guess the red light just means that it is time to unplug the DeltaQ and it is getting tired sucking up those 4 watts to keep the lights on. ;)
Frankly, the DeltaQ is more fun to watch in operation than is the OBC and makes for a nice hand warmer when operating as its cooling fins get kind of toasty when it is operating. ;) But needing to crawl around the bottom of the bike to plug in that big brown DeltaQ connector is not very convenient. I don't suppose that Zero could have placed the auxiliary connector on the side of the bike like they did with my old 2012 model? That would make connecting an auxiliary charger much easier. But I guess there is some reason that they located where they did. ???
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Regarding the DeltaQ charging indicator lights, they are kind of fun to watch.
I can't wait until you see your first traffic light. It's going to absolutely blow. your. mind.
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But needing to crawl around the bottom of the bike to plug in that big brown DeltaQ connector is not very convenient.
Easy to fix that. You can either make your own extension cables, but the easy way is to buy the Zero dual cable for the DeltaQ:
I can charge my 2017 Zero SR at 10 KW. Two Delta Q's plus two 3.3 KW extremal chargers plus OBC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have only tried charging with both the DeltaQ and the OBC at the same time once.
Other than charging with the top and bottom light on, or fully charged with the bottom two lights on, what is the longest you have seen the DeltaQ in any other mode?
Less than a second for any of my seven Delta Q's on either my 2017 SR or 2017 DS.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have only tried charging with both the DeltaQ and the OBC at the same time once.
Other than charging with the top and bottom light on, or fully charged with the bottom two lights on, what is the longest you have seen the DeltaQ in any other mode?
Less than a second for any of my seven Delta Q's on either my 2017 SR or 2017 DS.
-Don- Reno, NV
The blinking green light above the yellow bulk charging light lasts for about 20-30 minutes before it turns a solid green, as i recall. The time that i saw the red light was when I hadn't looked at the DeltaQ for about an hour after it apparently had finished the charging program. That red light stayed on until I disconnected the power cord.
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Back in the days (Last year :P) I had my OBC on a power plug monitoring current and voltage (And thus wattage) and the OBC in my case started tapering at 96%ish on my MY16 DSR-ZF13.
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Back in the days (Last year :P) I had my OBC on a power plug monitoring current and voltage (And thus wattage) and the OBC in my case started tapering at 96%ish on my MY16 DSR-ZF13.
My recollection is that the MY14 Zero S that I used to own would slow down every 20% while charging to apparently balance the battery cells and then pick up bulk charging again. Once it got near 100% the charging rate would slow down again to balance the cells before shutting off. That is why I was interested in my bike's charging program when I didn't see that same thing happening with the OBC, but then did see it with the DeltaQ while watching the power draw from the Kill-A-Watt meter. No doubt Zero has made a number of revisions over the years with their BMS programming.
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No, it does not bypass the BMS. The two units do, however send the charge signal in an entirely different way. The OBC has an orange-faced rectangular plug with like 24 pins in that I've always head referred to as the MXJ connector. It allows the OBC to interface with the CAN lines. There are also two lines on there that send the bike's enable signal to put it into charge mode and enable cell balancing, etc. The BMS does cell balancing, so the idea of the DeltaQ bypassing it doesn't fly there.
The Delta Q plugs into the bike's Aux port, the large brown SBS75XBRN Anderson plug to the left of the rear shock. If you look closely you'll see two small pins in between the large DC leads. These are the Aux enable pins that send the charge signal to the bike go let the BMS know the bike is in charge mode and balance when appropriate.
The difference between these two signals is that the OBC's CAN interface allows the bike to be 'woken up' by attaching a power cable even if the bike is off, and initiate a charge. You cannot do that with the Aux enable signal pins. That's why if you have your bike turned off you can't simply plug in the Delta Q and have it charge. Bike has to be on first, then turn on the Delta Q which will establish an enable signal, and then you can key the bike off and walk away.
I don't have a DeltaQ charger. But I have a homemade charger that I would like to use. How can I simulate the process of starting charging using the central pins of the Anderson 75 connector? What resistance should I connect to these auxiliary connectors to make it clear to the BMS that an external charger is connected?
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What's your homemade charger's HVC set at
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What's your homemade charger's HVC set at
The maximum current is 34A, but it is regulated from 3A. What do you say about the control contacts of the Anderson connector?
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That is not what I asked
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I don't have a DeltaQ charger. But I have a homemade charger that I would like to use. How can I simulate the process of starting charging using the central pins of the Anderson 75 connector? What resistance should I connect to these auxiliary connectors to make it clear to the BMS that an external charger is connected?
It doesn't work that way. A very weird unsymmetrical waveshape type of signal originates from the bike to activate the DeltaQ's. It would be very difficult to copy and activate a DeltaQ. I have looked at the waveshape on an oscilloscope a few years back and posted a few messages about it somewhere in this forum.
So forget about those small pins on the Anderson.
Your choices are either doing this (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg96765#msg96765)or leaving the key in or using the OBC as well as your charger. If the contactor is closed already, you will not need to use those small pins on the Anderson.
FWIW, I use Elcon external chargers on my 2017 Zeros. I have them wired to the motor controller battery contacts under the seat, under the carboard cover. It has five bolts, three go to the motor and are labeled as M1, M2 and M3. The other two go to the battery whenever the contactor is closed. The motor controller bottom is the fins you see on the top of the rear wheel fender. The top, under the seat, is what you need to get to, if you choose this method.
I charge my 2017 Zero SR at up to ~7.9 KW when on the road. Two 3.3 KW extremal chargers plus the OBC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That is not what I asked
What was asked about?
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I don't have a DeltaQ charger. But I have a homemade charger that I would like to use. How can I simulate the process of starting charging using the central pins of the Anderson 75 connector? What resistance should I connect to these auxiliary connectors to make it clear to the BMS that an external charger is connected?
It doesn't work that way. A very weird unsymmetrical waveshape type of signal originates from the bike to activate the DeltaQ's. It would be very difficult to copy and activate a DeltaQ. I have looked at the waveshape on an oscilloscope a few years back and posted a few messages about it somewhere in this forum.
So forget about those small pins on the Anderson.
Your choices are either doing this (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg96765#msg96765)or leaving the key in or using the OBC as well as your charger. If the contactor is closed already, you will not need to use those small pins on the Anderson.
FWIW, I use Elcon external chargers on my 2017 Zeros. I have them wired to the motor controller battery contacts under the seat, under the carboard cover. It has five bolts, three go to the motor and are labeled as M1, M2 and M3. The other two go to the battery whenever the contactor is closed. The motor controller bottom is the fins you see on the top of the rear wheel fender. The top, under the seat, is what you need to get to, if you choose this method.
I charge my 2017 Zero SR at up to ~7.9 KW when on the road. Two 3.3 KW extremal chargers plus the OBC.
-Don- Reno, NV
When I turn the key, the contactor actually closes and the charge from the external charging device goes to the battery. But as soon as I turn the key, the contactor opens if the built-in charger is not connected to the motorcycle. I would like to exclude the option of leaving the key in the ignition...
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It sounds like you're in way over your head and are setting yourself up for a catastrophic battery fire. I want nothing to do with this. I'm out.
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It sounds like you're in way over your head and are setting yourself up for a catastrophic battery fire. I want nothing to do with this. I'm out.
Thank you for the "help", colleague
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When I turn the key, the contactor actually closes and the charge from the external charging device goes to the battery. But as soon as I turn the key, the contactor opens if the built-in charger is not connected to the motorcycle. I would like to exclude the option of leaving the key in the ignition...
The only way is to do this (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg96765#msg96765), as I did. Read that thread from that message on.
-Don- Reno, NV
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When I turn the key, the contactor actually closes and the charge from the external charging device goes to the battery. But as soon as I turn the key, the contactor opens if the built-in charger is not connected to the motorcycle. I would like to exclude the option of leaving the key in the ignition...
The only way is to do this (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg96765#msg96765), as I did. Read that thread from that message on.
-Don- Reno, NV
I wrote in another forum thread that I have different wiring in this connector from the one shown in your photo
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I wrote in another forum thread that I have different wiring in this connector from the one shown in your photo
Yeah, I was wondering if that was you who had the older bike...what year and model is it?
-Don- (charging my Zero DSR/X at Incline Village, NV before a ride around Lake Tahoe)
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I wrote in another forum thread that I have different wiring in this connector from the one shown in your photo
Yeah, I was wondering if that was you who had the older bike...what year and model is it?
-Don- (charging my Zero DSR/X at Incline Village, NV before a ride around Lake Tahoe)
2014 Zero S
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2014 Zero S
I thought 2014 models have the same OBC as my 2017. Are you sure yours is different?
-Don- South Lake Tahoe, CA
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The manufacturer has changed over the years, you'd think the connections would have stayed the same but perhaps not. The unofficial manual used to have information about the different chargers over the years but that seems to be gone now, not the first thing I've noticed has disappeared.
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2014 Zero S
Take a photo of your OBC and post it here. Are you sure you're looking in the correct area of the OBC? The plug is on the rear of the OBC.
-Don- Emerald Bay Lookout Point, CA
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Attached is a photo of the original OBC that was installed in my daughter's 2014 Zero S. This one died a slow death (unlike the one in my 2018 S that burned up while charging) and was replaced with a newer version.
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Attached is a photo of the original OBC that was installed in my daughter's 2014 Zero S. This one died a slow death (unlike the one in my 2018 S that burned up while charging) and was replaced with a newer version.
By any chance, do you have a photo of the socket for the plug on that OBC?
-Don- Truckee, CA
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It's the same MXJ. They changed the pin configuration massively after 2014 because they added a bunch of new functionality.
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It's the same MXJ. They changed the pin configuration massively after 2014 because they added a bunch of new functionality.
Well, that messes up that idea anyway unless the red and gray wires have the same functionality on the 2014 as on my 2017.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It's the same MXJ. They changed the pin configuration massively after 2014 because they added a bunch of new functionality.
Well, that messes up that idea anyway unless the red and gray wires have the same functionality on the 2014 as on my 2017.
-Don- Reno, NV
There are no red and gray wires in my connector, you see. I attach a photo of the standard charger (OBC). This device is dying slowly. To date, the maximum voltage that it is capable of producing when charging is 110V DC
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This is what my connector looks like at the output of a standard charger (OBC)
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This is what my connector looks like at the output of a standard charger (OBC)
Only three wires? I doubt if you will be able to do the modification to keep the key out and charge without using the OBC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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This is what my connector looks like at the output of a standard charger (OBC)
Only three wires? I doubt if you will be able to do the modification to keep the key out and charge without using the OBC.
-Don- Reno, NV
It is sad
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It is sad
What is the issue of not wanting to keep the OBC on? How many KW is your external charger?
-Don- Reno, NV
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It is sad
What is the issue of not wanting to keep the OBC on? How many KW is your external charger?
-Don- Reno, NV
I do not know how many kW is left in it, it charges the battery to 110 V DC. But you will have to drive and laugh together with a regular dying charger so that an external additional device can also function
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I do not know how many kW is left in it, it charges the battery to 110 V DC. But you will have to drive and laugh together with a regular dying charger so that an external additional device can also function
What type of external charger is it?
And even if your OBC goes dead, as long as the contactor still closes, you will be able to use an external charger with your key out.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I do not know how many kW is left in it, it charges the battery to 110 V DC. But you will have to drive and laugh together with a regular dying charger so that an external additional device can also function
What type of external charger is it?
And even if your OBC goes dead, as long as the contactor still closes, you will be able to use an external charger with your key out.
-Don- Reno, NV
I have already posted photos of my custom charger in one of the topics on this forum
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Custom charger
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Custom charger
Where did you get that thing and are you sure it is programmed correctly for a Zero?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Custom charger
Where did you get that thing and are you sure it is programmed correctly for a Zero?
-Don- Reno, NV
This thing is the result of the creativity of one professional who collects chargers of the desired configuration for a specific type of NMC Li-Ion cells. I am absolutely sure that the charger is fully compatible with the type of cells mentioned above. This charger consists of two units, each of which outputs 58 V DC and is used in uninterruptible power supply systems of responsible server racks. The maximum current that this charger is capable of producing is about 34A. The maximum current that my custom battery can accept is 2C (50Ax2). So I'm not worried that something will burn out. The wiring also allows you to withstand a load of 34A
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That is my battery pack
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Continuation