ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Tony on August 05, 2022, 05:50:48 AM
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I am looking at the Cypher Store, and I am interested in the long promised 10% faster charging for SR/F 2020 premium that has been coming "soon" for about a year now. And I am trying to wrap my head around how and in which cases it works.
In this respect, I have two questions, perhaps someone here can help:
1. where I live there are multiple Type 2 charge stations. The typical ones are labeled 3.6kW, 7kW, 7.2kW, 7.3kW, 7.4kW and 22kW. There are probably more as well.
So, if I connect to the nearby 7kW charger, the display tells me
Current: 22 A
Power: 2.2kW
Different numbers from different Type 2 chargers of course, the highest number I have seen was something like 58A and 4.6kW.
But, what is the connection between "Power 2.2kW" in the display, and the 7kW label on the charging station itself?
Note, that I live in Norway. I was thinking it could be some kind of incompatibility between the local system and what is displayed on the bike, which probably assumes some American standard, but then again, Type 2 should be an international standard, no?
2. I suppose the 10% faster charging only gives any benefit if the charging station can deliver more power than the bike can handle. So, would there be any benefit to charging on a 3.6kW charging station with this 10% addon? I imagine it would only benefit when charging from the 22kW charging stations, which are quite sparse around here. So, in effect buying the 10% faster charging would do nothing in most cases for me, if I understand it correctly?
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I'm guessing Zero wire up chargers to the type 2 connector in Norway the same as they do in the UK, everything I say here is based on my UK bike and chargepoint experience. The premium have 2 X 3kW chargers connected on separate phases. I believe all 7.4kW and below chargerpoints are single phase, so you'll get 3kW maximum. 22kW chargepiints will be 3 phase and should give you 6kW charging. I believe anything labelled 11kW should do the same. The cypher store upgrade I would expect to make these 3.3kW and 6.6kW.
I'm a bit confused by the maximum charging rate you are seeing, do you know what your cable is rated for? Usually given in amps at mains voltage.
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I'm guessing Zero wire up chargers to the type 2 connector in Norway the same as they do in the UK, everything I say here is based on my UK bike and chargepoint experience. The premium have 2 X 3kW chargers connected on separate phases. I believe all 7.4kW and below chargerpoints are single phase, so you'll get 3kW maximum. 22kW chargepiints will be 3 phase and should give you 6kW charging. I believe anything labelled 11kW should do the same. The cypher store upgrade I would expect to make these 3.3kW and 6.6kW.
I'm a bit confused by the maximum charging rate you are seeing, do you know what your cable is rated for? Usually given in amps at mains voltage.
Thanks for your explanation. The charging cable is the standard one that came with the Zero SR/F. Not sure if everyone get a cable with their purchase, but seems to be the official one as it is labeled "Zero". I do not know the specs though, but it is probably written on it. Bike's at the service now though, so I cannot check it.
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If it's not marked and you have a vague electronic knowledge you can find out the cable rating by checking the resistance with a multimeter between the proximity pilot (PP) line and the earth (PE). 220 Ohms is 32Amp, 680 Ohms is 16Amp and 1500 Ohms is 10 Amp. These are mains current and your bike shows battery current at its native voltage. This is how the chargepoints and vehicles check the maximum rating of the cable. The chargepoint can choose to advertise less and the vehicle can choose to draw less. That is also the maximum per phase.
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Yep, the UK models are actually "wrongly" configured for the UK, where we typically have twice the amperage available compared to Europe, but because we're nominally Europe, they gave us the same wiring configuration as the European models. Which is annoying because we're only getting half what we could out of a 7kW charger as a result. But then if we took it to France on a tour it'd trip the breaker...
Cas :)
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It wouldn't be difficult to add a relay and handle both. I was going to build an adapter until I found out that the control pilot signal is the amount allowed per phase. Not a problem most of the time, unless your home charger is trying to do solar matching or something like that when the bike will draw double the advertised current.
I've found 3kW to be enough most of the time, which makes me question why I bothered going for the premium model.
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Is a 7.4kW charger in Norway on 1 phase, like in the UK?
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Is a 7.4kW charger in Norway on 1 phase, like in the UK?
I actually thought 1 phase would be type 1, I have no idea, feel I know less now than when I started this topic. Lol
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ok. Quick breakdown. I'll try to keep it short but this is a little bit messy because of... reasons.
The 2020 SR/S has up to three charging modules. A standard edition has a single 3kW AC unit physically tucked on top of the battery. The Premium edition has a second 3kW unit nestled next to it. The Rapid Charger is a 6kW unit that stacks on top and more or less fills up the 'tank pocket'.
In North America all of our power is single phase. It's crap, but that's what we have to work with. So every NA bike is sold with all the chargers on single phase. EU bikes are wired up differently. Because there are 3 units they split them up amongst 3 phases. This would be really elegant if all 3 units were identical. But they're not. Instead you've got 3kW, 3kW, 6kW. Due to the load balancing you wouldn't be able to get full power until you plug into a 22kW station where you could potentially pull 6kW on all three phases.
Similarly if you pull up to a 3 phase 7.2kW station, it's going to divert the power between the charging units as per the phases. However if it's a single phase EVSE, and I've heard there are some of those around just to confuse you, then only the first charging unit will engage for its maximum of 28.5 Amps.
What you're describing is a station that appears to be engaging only one of your charging units. Why only 22 amps? I don't know; it could be the limitation of your cable. That's my guess.
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Now, to FURTHER confuse things, Zero scrapped this setup with the model year '22 SR/S and SR/F bikes. Instead of two smaller 3kW chargers, they have introduced what is known as the "Flat 6". This is a single 6kW unit that, on standard edition bikes is set to deliver only 3kW unless you upgrade it to 6kW via a software unlock from the upcoming Cypher Store. The big question you're no doubt asking is, "how does this affect how it's wired to 3 phase power?"
And the answer is I don't know. I am *guessing* that the flat 6 is on one phase and the optional Rapid Chargers is on the second phase lead. Someone else is going to have to test this theory if they care.
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ok. Quick breakdown. I'll try to keep it short but this is a little bit messy because of... reasons.
The 2020 SR/S has up to three charging modules. A standard edition has a single 3kW AC unit physically tucked on top of the battery. The Premium edition has a second 3kW unit nestled next to it. The Rapid Charger is a 6kW unit that stacks on top and more or less fills up the 'tank pocket'.
In North America all of our power is single phase. It's crap, but that's what we have to work with. So every NA bike is sold with all the chargers on single phase. EU bikes are wired up differently. Because there are 3 units they split them up amongst 3 phases. This would be really elegant if all 3 units were identical. But they're not. Instead you've got 3kW, 3kW, 6kW. Due to the load balancing you wouldn't be able to get full power until you plug into a 22kW station where you could potentially pull 6kW on all three phases.
Similarly if you pull up to a 3 phase 7.2kW station, it's going to divert the power between the charging units as per the phases. However if it's a single phase EVSE, and I've heard there are some of those around just to confuse you, then only the first charging unit will engage for its maximum of 28.5 Amps.
What you're describing is a station that appears to be engaging only one of your charging units. Why only 22 amps? I don't know; it could be the limitation of your cable. That's my guess.
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Now, to FURTHER confuse things, Zero scrapped this setup with the model year '22 SR/S and SR/F bikes. Instead of two smaller 3kW chargers, they have introduced what is known as the "Flat 6". This is a single 6kW unit that, on standard edition bikes is set to deliver only 3kW unless you upgrade it to 6kW via a software unlock from the upcoming Cypher Store. The big question you're no doubt asking is, "how does this affect how it's wired to 3 phase power?"
And the answer is I don't know. I am *guessing* that the flat 6 is on one phase and the optional Rapid Chargers is on the second phase lead. Someone else is going to have to test this theory if they care.
Aha, thank you for the explanation. I think I understand more now, so the Type 2 connector has 7 pins. Two is for sending information. One is Earthing. Then the four remaining pins are used or not depending on whether it is a connected to a 1 phase charger or a 3 phase charger. 2 pins are used for a 1 phase charger, if all 4 pins are used it gives two additional phases. And each "phase" is an individual connector that goes to an individual charging unit on the MC, and the amount of power you can receive is multiplied with each phase you can receive.
I think I was a bit confused by the terminology phase, which indicated the electricity somehow was sent in one single cable in waves with three different offsets in the electromagnetic fields, somehow increasing the energy output 3 times if syncing the receiver to each phase. But three individual wires, one for each phase, each with one individual receiving unit, makes a lot more sense.
So from what I understand the SR/F Premium has a 6kw charger split into two 3kW units. So, it can only use 2 phases even if connected to a 3 phase. But, will charge twice as fast as if it was connected to a 1 phase type 2 charger. This can explain the numbers I am seeing, because I can swear I have seen two charging speeds on chargers all labeled 7kW. But then one was probably 3 phase, while the other one was 1 phase.
Still not sure why the bike says 2.2kw though, even if it is connected to a single phase charger at 7kW, it should be doing 3kW? I should try another cable then as you suggest. Unless this is artificially clipped to 2.2kW per phase by the software, and you need that 10% Cypher Store upgrade speed unlock to get the full 3kW per phase? But 2.2kW * 110% is still only 2.42kW...
Sorry for the long winded entry, just thinking loudly... :p
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ok. Quick breakdown. I'll try to keep it short but this is a little bit messy because of... reasons.
The 2020 SR/S has up to three charging modules. A standard edition has a single 3kW AC unit physically tucked on top of the battery. The Premium edition has a second 3kW unit nestled next to it. The Rapid Charger is a 6kW unit that stacks on top and more or less fills up the 'tank pocket'.
In North America all of our power is single phase. It's crap, but that's what we have to work with. So every NA bike is sold with all the chargers on single phase. EU bikes are wired up differently. Because there are 3 units they split them up amongst 3 phases. This would be really elegant if all 3 units were identical. But they're not. Instead you've got 3kW, 3kW, 6kW. Due to the load balancing you wouldn't be able to get full power until you plug into a 22kW station where you could potentially pull 6kW on all three phases.
Similarly if you pull up to a 3 phase 7.2kW station, it's going to divert the power between the charging units as per the phases. However if it's a single phase EVSE, and I've heard there are some of those around just to confuse you, then only the first charging unit will engage for its maximum of 28.5 Amps.
What you're describing is a station that appears to be engaging only one of your charging units. Why only 22 amps? I don't know; it could be the limitation of your cable. That's my guess.
______________________
Now, to FURTHER confuse things, Zero scrapped this setup with the model year '22 SR/S and SR/F bikes. Instead of two smaller 3kW chargers, they have introduced what is known as the "Flat 6". This is a single 6kW unit that, on standard edition bikes is set to deliver only 3kW unless you upgrade it to 6kW via a software unlock from the upcoming Cypher Store. The big question you're no doubt asking is, "how does this affect how it's wired to 3 phase power?"
And the answer is I don't know. I am *guessing* that the flat 6 is on one phase and the optional Rapid Chargers is on the second phase lead. Someone else is going to have to test this theory if they care.
Aha, thank you for the explanation. I think I understand more now, so the Type 2 connector has 7 pins. Two is for sending information. One is Earthing. Then the four remaining pins are used or not depending on whether it is a connected to a 1 phase charger or a 3 phase charger. 2 pins are used for a 1 phase charger, if all 4 pins are used it gives two additional phases. And each "phase" is an individual connector that goes to an individual charging unit on the MC, and the amount of power you can receive is multiplied with each phase you can receive.
I think I was a bit confused by the terminology phase, which indicated the electricity somehow was sent in one single cable in waves with three different offsets in the electromagnetic fields, somehow increasing the energy output 3 times if syncing the receiver to each phase. But three individual wires, one for each phase, each with one individual receiving unit, makes a lot more sense.
So from what I understand the SR/F Premium has a 6kw charger split into two 3kW units. So, it can only use 2 phases even if connected to a 3 phase. But, will charge twice as fast as if it was connected to a 1 phase type 2 charger. This can explain the numbers I am seeing, because I can swear I have seen two charging speeds on chargers all labeled 7kW. But then one was probably 3 phase, while the other one was 1 phase.
Still not sure why the bike says 2.2kw though, even if it is connected to a single phase charger at 7kW, it should be doing 3kW? I should try another cable then as you suggest. Unless this is artificially clipped to 2.2kW per phase by the software, and you need that 10% Cypher Store upgrade speed unlock to get the full 3kW per phase? But 2.2kW * 110% is still only 2.42kW...
Sorry for the long winded entry, just thinking loudly... :p
Useful thread, thanks. If tony has the zero charging cable that we have in the uk there should be a blue button/light that cycles through 3(?) amperage settings. I seem to remember it kept the last set value, for me this was 10A which gives me 2.3kW. I think the other settings were 13 and 16A, which should give up to 3kW roughly.
Pete.
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Useful thread, thanks. If tony has the zero charging cable that we have in the uk there should be a blue button/light that cycles through 3(?) amperage settings. I seem to remember it kept the last set value, for me this was 10A which gives me 2.3kW. I think the other settings were 13 and 16A, which should give up to 3kW roughly.
Pete.
I do not have any button on my cable (unless it is really well hidden), but it would be super interesting to know if you can charge faster at the full 3kW if you up the Ampere on yours. Curious why you never tried the other settings, if it can potentially charge your bike much faster? Although, on the display it says 22A when I am charging, which indicates a higher ampere, and I have seen this gone up to almost 60A.
Would be super interesting to know if you could get a 3kW out of it, in this case, I should be able to increase my charging speed simply by replacing the charging cable with one that supports a higher ampere...
I am still quite confused though, why would my display say 22A and 2.3kW, if the cable only transfers 10A, like in your case? :o
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The amperage you see on the dash is what is going into the battery, not what you're pulling from the EVSE.
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The amperage you see on the dash is what is going into the battery, not what you're pulling from the EVSE.
So, you mean the combined ampere from all phase connectors?
But, if peterwarm is getting 2.3kW on a 10A cable, shouldn't the total max out to 10A? Or is the 10A per phase? I am not sure what A he is seeing, but as for me, I get 22A when charging 2.3kW. Which should be impossible on a 10A cable, no?
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The battery voltage is going to be lower than what the charge station is putting out. For example when his display was reading 22A and 2.2kW that means the battery voltage was at 100V, fully charged it would be around 116V so the current would drop to around 19A if it maintained the same 2.2kW. If the charge station is putting out say 220V then you could pull 10A from it for that 2.2kW but it would be more than double the current going into the battery from the on board charger.
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^^ Exactly. Watts = Volts X Amps. The battery runs 100V-ish so it's quick math.
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The 2020 SR/S has up to three charging modules. A standard edition has a single 3kW AC unit physically tucked on top of the battery. The Premium edition has a second 3kW unit nestled next to it. The Rapid Charger is a 6kW unit that stacks on top and more or less fills up the 'tank pocket'.
Thanks for explaining this, @Mvetter!
I'm in the US and have a new 2022 SR/S (non Premium). Do you know whether or not my bike would have come with that second 3kW unit you describe as being nestled next to the battery? The Cypher Store Builder suggests that I'll be able to add 100% Faster Charge to my bike for $1,495 and I'm trying to understand if, in practice, that means that they included that second charger and $1,495 is the cost for unlocking it.
I didn't fully understand this when I bought the bike but as it stands, the bundled L1 charger gets me 1.4kWh. L2 (either at home on my 50A L2 charger or at a ChargePoint station) gets me 3kWh. If that additional charger really is bundled on the bike, am I correct in assuming that if I pay the $1,500, it will have no impact on L1 but would let me get ~6kWh off a L2?
What's the 10% thing do? That's seems even sillier.
Man...the Cypher Store idea didn't bother me all that much when I was considering my purchase but now that I'm looking at a total of $4,295US to unlock everything, I'm pretty turned off by the whole thing.
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If you'd only kept reading down further on the same post you'd have seen the following:
Now, to FURTHER confuse things, Zero scrapped this setup with the model year '22 SR/S and SR/F bikes. Instead of two smaller 3kW chargers, they have introduced what is known as the "Flat 6". This is a single 6kW unit that, on standard edition bikes is set to deliver only 3kW unless you upgrade it to 6kW via a software unlock from the upcoming Cypher Store.
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If you'd only kept reading down further on the same post you'd have seen the following:
Now, to FURTHER confuse things, Zero scrapped this setup with the model year '22 SR/S and SR/F bikes. Instead of two smaller 3kW chargers, they have introduced what is known as the "Flat 6". This is a single 6kW unit that, on standard edition bikes is set to deliver only 3kW unless you upgrade it to 6kW via a software unlock from the upcoming Cypher Store.
Ahh....sorry for missing that. Wasn't laziness on my part....I think I filtered that out because it was below a long underline and my brain assumed that everything below that line was just a signature.
I don't think my dealer understood this and I certainly didn't until this moment. Thanks very much for the info.
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I got the Zero back from service now, so I could snap some pics of the cable and charging screen. The cable is of type 3 phase and 32A.
I now got a more sensible 27A and 2.9kW speed on the charger marked 7.3kW, indicating a single phase charging station almost able to max out one of the two 3kW receivers on the bike. That makes more sense than the 2.3kW I saw before the service was done on the same charger, so seems the fixes they did (replace faulty wiring, update to latest firmwares) helped the charging speed. 8)
Question: Since the cable is marked as 32A, would that mean I get 32A per phase max? I am sure I have seen A in the range 50-60 while charging at a more powerful phase 3 charger.
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Those are mains voltage amps on the cable rating. They are per phase though but your Zero will actually only be pulling about 15A at the mains per phase, which will be around 30A per phase battery current. I tend to talk in kW, it makes life easier when voltages are changing.
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I got the Zero back from service now, so I could snap some pics of the cable and charging screen. The cable is of type 3 phase and 32A.
I now got a more sensible 27A and 2.9kW speed on the charger marked 7.3kW, indicating a single phase charging station almost able to max out one of the two 3kW receivers on the bike. That makes more sense than the 2.3kW I saw before the service was done on the same charger, so seems the fixes they did (replace faulty wiring, update to latest firmwares) helped the charging speed. 8)
Question: Since the cable is marked as 32A, would that mean I get 32A per phase max? I am sure I have seen A in the range 50-60 while charging at a more powerful phase 3 charger.
32A on the cable means 32 per phase yes. That range you've read is what is going into the battery, not what's coming from the charge station.
In .no, using type2 mode3 charging, you will only see stations marked 3.6 kW, 7 kW, 11 kW, 22 kW and in some rare outdated cases supporting the older generations of Renault Zoe, 44 kW.
DC charging on the other hand is a totally different bag of tricks and numbers.. :P