ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rogerpiano on July 20, 2022, 09:25:35 PM
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As I wrote in another post, every summer I ask myself the question of whether to switch from S to SR / F, and I regularly retrace my steps happy to stay at S. In this post I would like to write what would be the ideal configuration for a Zero (according to myself):
- Driving position and handling of the S
- Weight not exceeding 200 kg
- 6 KW base charging and glove compartment
- Double front disc
- No 12V battery
- Simplified software configuration as on S-DS, so no unnecessary frills
- Possibility of loading with C13, with Andersen and with Mennekes (I don't understand why the Andersen has disappeared on the SR platforms)
I bought my S in 2019, and after 3 years I find I find no reason to switch to SR / F, especially when I read about the problems that plague the new platform. The S (or DS) still seems to me today the most balanced and the most efficient of the models available.
To date the SR / F, although beautiful, for me represents only 40kg more to carry around, useless and often malfunctioning accessories and trappings, lower autonomy for the same battery compared to S.
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I have the same feeling about trading in my 2018 S with a Power Tank for a new SR/F. My S works great and has not given me any problems that i could not fix in my garage. :) I haven't had to return to my dealer since the 600 mile initial checkup.
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In June I went to do the commissioning of the engine and the dealer offered me to switch to SR (F or S or normal) with state eco-bonus + 3000 € incentive as already owner of a Zero + exchange of my S. With a small additional sum I could have taken the new SR or putting more SR / F. However, after days of reflection, I came to these conclusions:
- With the S I mostly charge at home with slow charging and external charger. I preserve the battery and don't use the notoriously weak on-board charger. I can't do it with SR because I have only one on-board charger and if it breaks I'm stuck.
- With the S I travel more road with the same battery. The basic 3kw charging of the SR doesn't substantially change anything if I wanted to take a trip, because I would travel less road due to the weight and everything else and the charging times would still be long. We should at least switch to 6kw
- The SR seems to me just a decoy, because it seems to be cheap but in the end it forces you to upgrade sooner or later. The type of use, then, is the same as that of an S, because you still can't make long journeys, and therefore you can only enjoy the upgrade within a limited range of km.
In the end, the only SRs that seem to make any real sense to me are those with full 12kw charging.
If they offered me an incentive to upgrade from S 2019 to S 2022 I would take it now!
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I recently bought a Zero 1K accessory charger and have been using that device to charge up at home for the same reason. Since my original OBC failed I decided to only use the replacement OBC when needing to charge somewhere other than at home. The Zero accessory charger seems like a really robust device and looks to me to be "bomb proof" and the slightly lower charge rate probably is a little easier on the battery pack.
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My 2018 S was pretty much my "perfect Zero" until some @$$wipe decided not to look before pulling out of a driveway and slamming right into me. I ended up buying SonOfAnakin's 2021 SR but I really didn't need that much power. The problem is, for some IDIOTIC reason, Zero only sells the "S" model with the 7.2kWh battery option in the US (you can still get it with the 14.4kWh battery in Europe).
7.2kWh is insufficient for how I used the bike (my 2018 had the 13kWh battery) and I simply don't trust the Generation3 bikes (SR/F, SR/S and the new SR) yet. I've been reading far far too many issues with the software/firmware and the 12v battery to be comfortable with them. I'm not into Adventure-style bikes and beside the DS/DSR gets less range than the S anyway. Plus, the DS has the same issue as the S in the United States (only available with the 7.2kWh battery).
For now I'm happy with the 2021 SR. SonOfAnakin had already outfitted the bike with everything I had on my 2018 S plus a set of locking side cases which I'd always considered but never actually purchased. He also had the touring screen installed (I just had the commuter screen) and MOST importantly, the 6kW Charge Tank. The only thing I had to add was the handle-bar mount for my smart phone and the little license-plate box where I secure my insurance card. https://www.aerostich.com/locking-license-plate-compartment.html
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I recently bought a Zero 1K accessory charger and have been using that device to charge up at home for the same reason. Since my original OBC failed I decided to only use the replacement OBC when needing to charge somewhere other than at home. The Zero accessory charger seems like a really robust device and looks to me to be "bomb proof" and the slightly lower charge rate probably is a little easier on the battery pack.
The OBC is more efficient when using 240 VAC like I always do. That means less heat in the OBC, so it should last longer.
The OBC is around 1.4KW. The Delta-Q is around 850 watts or so, IIRC. But that type of difference will be negligible to your battery pack.
I normally charge my Zero SR at either 3, six or 8 KW, but always with 240 VAC. I cannot even remember the last time I only used the OBC (1.4KW) other than when on an RV trip with my DS.
I normally charge my DS at either three or six KWs.
No battery issues yet, other than my Zero DS battery that crapped out during the warranty.
In fact, the one battery that died in warranty was when I normally only used the OBC at ~1.4 KW.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You are right Don. The Delta Q charger is 850 watts. My home doesn't have 240Vs, just 120V. I still think that the OBC gets too hot for its own good when charging for a long time and that heat likely leads to one of its components failing eventually. I bet that if it had a fan to keep it cool it would last a lot longer. That Delta Q is a real brick. While it also gets pretty hot when charging, at least it has plenty of fins to keep it cool, especially when being used in my 60 degree F garage.
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You are right Don. The Delta Q charger is 850 watts. My home doesn't have 240Vs, just 120V. I still think that the OBC gets too hot for its own good when charging for a long time and that heat likely leads to one of its components failing eventually. I bet that if it had a fan to keep it cool it would last a lot longer. That Delta Q is a real brick. While it also gets pretty hot when charging, at least it has plenty of fins to keep it cool, especially when being used in my 60 degree F garage.
Don't most (all?) American homes have 240V going to them and it's just split into two 120V circuits? If I remember right it's as simple as adding a circuit breaker to your panel that bridges the two circuits, then run a cable from that to a 240V socket installed in your garage.
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You are right Don. The Delta Q charger is 850 watts. My home doesn't have 240Vs, just 120V. I still think that the OBC gets too hot for its own good when charging for a long time and that heat likely leads to one of its components failing eventually. I bet that if it had a fan to keep it cool it would last a lot longer. That Delta Q is a real brick. While it also gets pretty hot when charging, at least it has plenty of fins to keep it cool, especially when being used in my 60 degree F garage.
Don't most (all?) American homes have 240V going to them and it's just split into two 120V circuits? If I remember right it's as simple as adding a circuit breaker to your panel that bridges the two circuits, then run a cable from that to a 240V socket installed in your garage.
In theory, yes. But it would take an electrician to perform that work and a permit from the city's building department, which would likely cost over a thousand dollars to do. Maybe more as in my home the electric panel is located on the other side of my house from my garage and I am not sure how that could be done. Plus, I would have no other use for a 240V circuit as everything that might need it in my home is powered by natural gas.
BTW, my daughter is having her 100 amp panel replaced with a 200 service so they can install solar panels for a cost of $7,000. She got three bids and that was the cheapest. The high bid was $20K. :o There are no bargain electrical work available in the SF Bay Area. Business for electricians is very brisk around here.
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I can almost guarantee you they're just milking incentives, too. I suspect they're pocketing most of the rebates themselves. I keep hearing things from homeowner friends "ohhh, we got this battery array and got $2k off it" and from the basic amount I know about the incentive program (California SGIP in this case) they would have been eligible for $8k+. I suspect the contractor pocketed the other $6k quietly.
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I can almost guarantee you they're just milking incentives, too. I suspect they're pocketing most of the rebates themselves. I keep hearing things from homeowner friends "ohhh, we got this battery array and got $2k off it" and from the basic amount I know about the incentive program (California SGIP in this case) they would have been eligible for $8k+. I suspect the contractor pocketed the other $6k quietly.
They were quoted a price for the solar panels of $50K. But they have to have a new electrical panel installed because their existing panel was not acceptable to the solar power company. Apparently when their home was built in 1957 the contractor never took out a permit for the electrical service and it doesn't meet current codes.
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My ideal Zero would be handling and weight of my FXS. But with 6kW J1772 charging and the range of my 2018 SR. Better seating for a passenger and better lighting would be good too.
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You are right Don. The Delta Q charger is 850 watts. My home doesn't have 240Vs, just 120V. I still think that the OBC gets too hot for its own good when charging for a long time and that heat likely leads to one of its components failing eventually. I bet that if it had a fan to keep it cool it would last a lot longer. That Delta Q is a real brick. While it also gets pretty hot when charging, at least it has plenty of fins to keep it cool, especially when being used in my 60 degree F garage.
A fan isn't a bad idea. Just get a small 120 VAC fan and have it blow near the bottom of the bike. But if you're in no hurry, just use the DeltaQ.
BTW, here at home, I can charge my 2017 SR at 9.7KW. But I am rarely in that type of hurry. But if I am, I can use my Tesla Wall Connector to a Tesla Tap to two 3.3 Elcons, two DeltaQ and the OBC. That adds up to just under 10 KW with 240 VAC. It's 240 VAC at 48 amps. 240V times 48 amps=11,520 watts.
You must have an old house there. Like my old built in 1943 SSF dumpy house. Only the neutral and one hot ran to the house. I could see the other hot wire taped to the other wires coming from the telephone pole. So there was not even any 240 VAC at the house at all--ever. But the wire for it was close to the house but 15 feet up in the air. I never did have 240 VAC at that house.
My SSF house was one of the few to be built during WW2.
BTW, it's this dump here. (https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/110-Grove-Ave-South-San-Francisco-CA-94080/15483432_zpid/?mmlb=g,0) That it is only now worth a little more than a million bucks proves what a dump it is--for that area.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Getting back on track:
Of course DCFC would be nice, BUT as long as I have 6kW charging capability I'm content. In fact, I see this as a good thing. As I get older I'm learning how important it is to slow down and appreciate what's around me. In order to maximize my range, I stay off of the interstates and limited access highways. This forces me to go through towns and see things I would otherwise miss. I just discovered Plugshare has the capability of planning routes around charging stations and as long as I'm in no hurry I really can go almost anywhere I'd like to go. If I AM in a hurry for now, I do have two ICE bikes for that purpose but I find that 95% of my riding is less than 100 miles and easily within range of my SR.
SonOfAnakin also equipped the bike with Zero's touring seat which is a damned sight better than the stock saddle. I had the Corbin on my S which I found more attractive as I could custom order the colors and styling that I wanted. I may still do that with the SR but for the time being the touring saddle is just fine for all day rides.
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Now that you mention it I would have really appreciated a softer seat on my S. That thing is really hard, but I solved that problem with a Air Hawk seat pad. Hopefully the seats on the SR/F&S models are better designed as i have yet to see one in person since they hit the market.
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I rode an SR/S at this year's Americade but the demo ride wasn't really long enough for me to ascertain how good the saddle was compared to what I have on the SR.
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I would add that when I bought Zero I was struck by the idea of simplicity that accompanied electric mobility, and the S / DS platforms still continue to have this approach today.
After 3 years, on the other hand, I see that on the SR platforms it becomes even complicated to understand how to configure a bike both for too many variants and for the Cipher Store, and it also becomes difficult for me to advertise for the brand to other motorcyclists. Being Italian, I have Energica around the corner, but I still prefer Zero.
I wonder, for example, why not use the new battery in the 17.3KWh version on all models, thus optimizing production costs.
Again, I wonder if you were to buy a base model and then unlock the extra battery after 2 years, isn't that the same as fitting a new power tank to a two year old battery with cell imbalance issues?
Sorry if maybe I say stupid
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Again, I wonder if you were to buy a base model and then unlock the extra battery after 2 years, isn't that the same as fitting a new power tank to a two year old battery with cell imbalance issues?
No because it's the same cells. You're just using more of the same cell. Imagine your battery as a large bucket of water, but you're only allowed to fill it 3/4 full. Then imagine after the unlock you're allowed to fill the same bucket 4/5 full. Same bucket. Same battery pack. Same cells.
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Again, I wonder if you were to buy a base model and then unlock the extra battery after 2 years, isn't that the same as fitting a new power tank to a two year old battery with cell imbalance issues?
No because it's the same cells. You're just using more of the same cell. Imagine your battery as a large bucket of water, but you're only allowed to fill it 3/4 full. Then imagine after the unlock you're allowed to fill the same bucket 4/5 full. Same bucket. Same battery pack. Same cells.
Do the 2022 models have the same cells as the 2019-2021 models?
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Only the MY '22 FST platform (SR, SR/F, and SR/S) bikes have the new cells.
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Gotcha, thanks!
Another thing that seems different (or is a glitch) is that the 6kW rapid charger is stated to be compatible only until FST 2021 bikes in the accessories page. Wonder if they will have a new one coming this year.
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I think 2022 bikes have 12kW charge already in on another paid software unlock. Heated grips are like that too. I'm undecided about the concept to be honest, I suspect there will be lots of ranting about it but it seems to be the way vehicles are going. I believe BMW cars have heated seats on a monthly subscription.
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I believe BMW cars have heated seats on a monthly subscription.
Telsa charges ten buck per month for some of their BS, so even that is nothing new.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I think 2022 bikes have 12kW charge already in on another paid software unlock. Heated grips are like that too. I'm undecided about the concept to be honest, I suspect there will be lots of ranting about it but it seems to be the way vehicles are going. I believe BMW cars have heated seats on a monthly subscription.
The SR and the Standard both have 6.6kw worth of AC charging built in but you have to pay to go from 3kw to the 6kw or 6.6kw with the full unlock.
I see it doesn't show the Charge Tank option in the full specs but at the top of the page it show 60min optimum charge time to 95% and if you click on the "i" circle it notes that time is with the charge tank.
Surely they will leave the tank empty and wait for people to either pre order or have the Power Tank or Charge Tank installed.
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I only have my Zero DSR for a few days, and it is pretty nice.
The biggest add on would be to have more range and the charge tank kind of setup.
My DSR will never see the kind of range they quote with my driving style, not even close, and a bike is supposed to be fun, otherwise what is the point?
Give me the ability to do 120 miles in highway speed (80-85) and this becomes the perfect bike.
The seat is a bit too low for my taste, and I would love the front brake to be a little bigger.
The jack is too backward, and a center stand would have been great.
But it is a fun machine to drive!
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My DSR will never see the kind of range they quote with my driving style, not even close, and a bike is supposed to be fun, otherwise what is the point?
IMO, electric bikes are fun to ride even when ridden slowly.
And my rule is if I am on an electric bike and in a big hurry and going far enough to need a charge, ride very slow. There is no way speed can make up for the extra charge time wait. Not even with 12 KW charging.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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This is why we all want 22kW charging :) (or more! - but the 22kW AC chargers are everywhere)
Cas :)
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This is why we all want 22kW charging :) (or more! - but the 22kW AC chargers are everywhere)
Cas :)
I have yet to see a 22KW AC charger in a vehicle or an AC charge station that can handle it.
Even my Tesla M3 charger is 11,520 watts max charging (240 VAC @ 48 amps on its input so the DC output has to be even less) as well as my Tesla Wall Connector.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Renault Zoe does 22kW, apparently uses it's motor windings as a transformer or something odd like that. That's the only vehicle I know of that can do it. 22kW chargers are quite common in the UK, not sure why when hardly any vehicles can make use of it.
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22kW chargers are quite common in the UK, not sure why when hardly any vehicles can make use of it.
I assume you mean AC charge stations as the chargers are inside the EV. The AC stuff, such as J-1772, Tesla Destination and Wall Connectors are little more than an AC supply.
Anyway, I wish we had that problem here. I rarely can charge my Zero SR at even 8KW here. Many of our AC stations are less than 7KW (such as 6.6 KW) and many of those are shared, meaning if both are used, 3.3 KW per side. There are even a couple of 3KW shared J-1772 stations that can only handle 1.5KW if both plugs are used. But some are not shared, and then I can use both plugs to get my 8 KW.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Yes, sorry, 22kW AC 3 phase is common in the UK. Tesco let you use theirs for free.
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Yes, sorry, 22kW AC 3 phase is common in the UK. Tesco let you use theirs for free.
Do you have EVs there than have three phase chargers and can do the full 22KWs on an AC charge?
That is almost as good as an Energica on a CCS DCFC, 24KW.
Give me a 22KW AC charger and the AC charge stations here and then they can keep the CCS.
CCS is ridiculously unreliable, especially in NV. When they break, nobody fixes them. They stay broken for months if not years.
For examples:
See here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/98462)
and here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/311104)
and here (https://www.plugshare.com/location/144823)
and here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/324568)
I cannot get far on my Energica SS9- in Nevada. The most important CCS locations do not work and that is the norm. But the AC charge stations usually work.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Renault Zoe is literally the only vehicle I know of that can do 22kW AC.
I work for a company that makes chargepoints and you probably don't want to get me started on how awful the CCS standard is. Also they still haven't finished the spec to make it bidirectional. Unfortunately it was made the standard for Europe so we're stuck with it. Chademo is much better, but did require a completely separate connector. I only found out recently that Zero was going to put Chademo on its bikes in 2013 but had lots of issues with chargers not fully implementing the standard, mainly not being able to set the voltage low enough even though the standard says they should work down to 50V.
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Some charging stations on mainland Europe go up to 43kW AC even, check the Fastned stations for example in NL. In Europe, some EV's use 22kW AC charging. I don't know if it's still possible but Tesla Model S could be equipped with a 22kW internal, and some Renault Zoe's use the motor inverter in reverse to reach 43kW AC... Nowadays 11kW seems standard in a vehicle.
The EVSE at home is a 3-phase 11kW unit, when I had the SR/S Premium I could fill it under 2 hours @ home. A lot of homes in NL have 3-phase 230V at 25 amps so theoretically 17kW is possible but when the dryer is running while charging it doesn't leave much left for the rest of the house ;)
Regarding CCS, European users have a luxury position I guess. The EU is promoting CCS heavily, and with Tesla SC opening up it broadens the spectrum even more. I'm travelling to the UK next week so I can go take a look how the infra is there, but for now the apps show ample CCS outside of the Tesla SC's. On the CCS charges I've done I had 2 stations not working, but there was always one in a 10 mile radius that worked.
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You are right Don. The Delta Q charger is 850 watts. My home doesn't have 240Vs, just 120V. I still think that the OBC gets too hot for its own good when charging for a long time and that heat likely leads to one of its components failing eventually. I bet that if it had a fan to keep it cool it would last a lot longer. That Delta Q is a real brick. While it also gets pretty hot when charging, at least it has plenty of fins to keep it cool, especially when being used in my 60 degree F garage.
Friends don't let friends charge at 120v ;)
Here is what you need to start charging at 220v, in any house (except for the one described by DonTom)
https://quick220.com/products/copy-of-model-a220-15d-plus-2-adapters-for-international-plugs (https://quick220.com/products/copy-of-model-a220-15d-plus-2-adapters-for-international-plugs)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304570594177?hash=item46e9d27381:g:LacAAOSw5-xifd7f
I've been using this myself, since the Volt days of 2016.
The Chevy EVSE only draws 12A (at 220v) making it safe for residential 15A Circuits.
You end up with 2.9kW charging, which was plenty for me; on a Volt, Bolt & SR/S.
The secret is, the Chevy EVSE (and probably all L1 EVSE) provide L2 [220V] charging, when you connect them to 220V.
So the cord that came w/ your Zero might work too.
It you want, I can test my Zero L1 cord and confirm.
(I had already loaded up on Chevy EVSE's before getting a SR/S.)
L1 EVSE are low draw [12A] so they can work with the Quick220 and normal 15A Circuits.
You just need to find (2) Circuits on different phases (for the Quick220), which isn't hard to do.
It's all vetted on the Volt Forums and Quick 220 has more info, on their web site, as well.
Any questions; PM me and/or post here.
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My ideal Zero is exactly the same as my 2020 SR, but with 4 changes:
- Reverse gear
- Seat 1 inch lower
- Footpegs fully adjustable up/down and forward/back like a car seat, and you can slide them all the way forward to turn them into highway pegs
- Can charge faster than 6 kW (ideally it should have some kind of magical ability to turn 7kW Level 2 chargers into DC Fast Chargers ;D)
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Can charge faster than 6 kW (ideally it should have some kind of magical ability to turn 7kW Level 2 chargers into DC Fast Chargers ;D )
Your 6 KW AC to DC chargers have nothing to do with DC fast charging regardless of what you turn them into.
With DC fast charging, the charger on the road is the charger and it goes direct to your battery.
Only AC charging uses the charger on your bike. In 240 VAC (or 120 VAC) and out is the battery DC used for charging.
So if you changed your chargers to "DC Fast Chargers" they would no longer be part of your bike. They would be on the road.
The real issue is Zero's battery is too low of a voltage to use with any DC fast chargers we have on the road.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Don is taking issue with your use of the term "magical" and really setting you straight. Give 'em hell, Don!
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- Weight not exceeding 200 kg
- 220 Nm of torque (just a tad more than Energica 8))
- ~20% more regenerative braking
- 16 kWh battery pack (nominal value)
- 12 KW premium AC charging AND still the glove compartment
- Cruise control which can resume a previous set speed
- Better driving position for > 180 cm
- Better seating for the passenger
- A more comfortable rear suspension
- A better rear brake
- LED signals
- Better high beam
- A smoother front brake
- Better protection against water splashing from the rear wheel
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Just give my two cents here. I used to have the DSR, then switched to SR/F. Very happy with the change, this is what I liked when switching:
- Although heavier, the SR/F handled better for me. I am not an expert, but I suppose a more optimal weight distribution contribute a lot, and also the larger tires with rounded edges. Felt so much more smooth in curves.
- I am not sure a heavy bike is something to avoid necessarily. The heavier SR/F really felt a lot more stable at high speeds. I feel totally comfortable driving at 120 km/h, whereas the DSR would feel a bit flimsy and less stable.
- I love some of the accessories on the SR/F (premium). The heated grips has made it possible to stretch the season before giving up because of low temperature. I feel quite comfortable riding at high speeds until about 7C with these grips.
- Traction control is nice to have, you can never be safe enough when driving an MC, although in my real life experience it did not protect me when I needed it.
It is by no means perfect, I have been plagued by some software related problems and other stuff, but still remain the favorite among the two Zeros I have experience with at least.
The number one wish is for a longer range and faster charging. After this, just would just like it to work as it should, without any software bugs or maintenance problems.