ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: wadejesu on July 10, 2022, 11:20:26 PM
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I'm new to battery powered bikes , don't have a Ribelle yet, seen a ton of videos on charging that show how to connect to bike, But what is at the other end of cable? Does bike come with some sort of AC wall plug, Is there a home Fast charge unit that can be purchased? I guess the Energica's have a CCS1 connector. I have seen chargers on ebay for around 400 USD that have J1772 and CCS1, not sure if they will work. What is Level 1, 2 , 3 charging.
Any insite would be appreciated
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I'm new to battery powered bikes , don't have a Ribelle yet, seen a ton of videos on charging that show how to connect to bike, But what is at the other end of cable? Does bike come with some sort of AC wall plug, Is there a home Fast charge unit that can be purchased? I guess the Energica's have a CCS1 connector. I have seen chargers on ebay for around 400 USD that have J1772 and CCS1, not sure if they will work. What is Level 1, 2 , 3 charging.
Any insite would be appreciated
Energica motorcycles can utilize all 3 charging levels, Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3.
First thing is plugs, J1772 (Level 1 and 2) and CCS1 (Level 3). CCS1 has a J1772 built in. This allows you to use only the J1772 aspect on your motorcycle. J1772 is Level 1 and 2 Charging. CCS1 is Level 3 charging. When you use CCS1 you are using both the J1772 port (for communication) and the lower DC pins for power (at least the way I understand it). CCS stands for Combined Charging System.
Level 1 is like your home wall outlet. AC Power. Max power is roughly ~1kw. Slowest available. A level 1 charge cord will have a standard electrical cord plug on one end, and a J1772 plug on the other. The J1772 plug is what goes into the bike. You might travel with this cord just in case.. it's basically an extension cord with a J1772 plug at the end.
Level 2 requires a higher level power source, but like level 1 is AC power. J1772 plug going into your bike again. Max power to the Energica's at this time is ~3kw, as that is built in chargers max. Think your home electric clothes dryer or electric hot water heater in your home. Home level 2 charging often involves a wall mounted charge box. The charging cable for level 2 (if at home) will either have to be hard wired to your electrical box by an electrician or if you have a standard NEMA 14-50 outlet (or similar NEMA style plug) you can plug your wall charger to it. The cable coming off your wall charge box will have a J1772 plug that goes into your bike. You can get wall chargers for ~$400 + installation by an electrician. You will need to verify your electrical box can handle the additional power draw as well. Older homes might be maxed out on power and would require a panel upgrade (not cheap but not crazy expensive.. think ~$2-4k probably?) Level 2 chargers are plentiful in the wild, the have the J1772 plug and lots of shops/municipal parking/etc have ChargePoint or other public chargers. These wild level 2 chargers often have a fee to use them but can be free in some circumstances. Either way you usually need an account with whatever network is operating the device to utilize them. They do make 'mobile' level 2 chargers which are sometimes a bit more bulky and this is generally used for charging at an RV park. RV Parks often have NEMA outlets with high power output.
Level 3 is DC Fast Charging. This is not an option for home. This is your CCS1 plug. These are the chargers you see at WalMarts and off freeways. The max charge rate for Energica's at a DC Fast Charger is roughly ~24kw. When DC Fast Charging, the charger on your bike is not utilized.
DC Fast Charging and Tesla Supercharger (since this comes up). Tesla Superchargers are DC Fast Chargers, but the plug is proprietary to Tesla. Meaning it won't work on non-tesla vehicles. You may have heard of Tesla opening their network to non-Tesla vehicles. This would require (in the U.S.) them to start installing Superchargers with Tesla plugs and CCS1 plugs. This is probably a long way off from happenings in terms of scale. Tesla would have to retrofit existing Superchargers and all new installations.. so don't expect any extremely wide rollout of access to Tesla Superchargers for non-Tesla vehicles anytime soon.
Hope that helps, sorry for the wall of text.
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Here is a link to a few YouTubes that may help. https://www.youtube.com/c/Energicasuperbike/videos
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Here is a link to a few YouTubes that may help. https://www.youtube.com/c/Energicasuperbike/videos
Great link. There is a specific charging episode as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h86Z_umFQP4
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Thanks for the info, I' m smarter now. Can I assume the bike comes with a Level 1 cable/charger?
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They used to, but now I think it only comes stock if you buy the RS model. They're easy to find on Amazon. If you really want to flex your brain muscles, this guy explains how they work in very simple terms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y
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They used to, but now I think it only comes stock if you buy the RS model.
I was asked if I wanted a L-1 or L-2 granny cable with my Experia, so from that, I assume at least the Experia comes with a charge cable. Not that I care, I have at least a dozen of them, mostly for L2.
I wonder if the only difference is the 120 VAC/240 VAC plug. I think all of mine do both, the plug is the only issue.
I almost never charge with 120 VAC. My normal home charge is from my Tesla Wall Connector to a Tesla Tap.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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You signed up for Launch Edition which comes with extra goodies, like the hard cases.
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It is possible to charge at speeds greater than 3kW at home with somewhat expensive equipment such as a Setec portable CCS charger. Should cost around $3k shipped.
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I was thinking of getting a Wallbox Pulsar plus, 40 amp
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I was thinking of getting a Wallbox Pulsar plus, 40 amp
You don't need 40 amps for a 3KW AC charger. 16 amps is more than enough. 16 amps times 240 VAC=3,840 watts. More than that is useless on any Enegica for level 2 charging. But it won't hurt anything to have more capacity, just will cost more than necessary, if that's all you want to use it for.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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They used to, but now I think it only comes stock if you buy the RS model.
I was asked if I wanted a L-1 or L-2 granny cable with my Experia, so from that, I assume at least the Experia comes with a charge cable. Not that I care, I have at least a dozen of them, mostly for L2.
I wonder if the only difference is the 120 VAC/240 VAC plug. I think all of mine do both, the plug is the only issue.
I almost never charge with 120 VAC. My normal home charge is from my Tesla Wall Connector to a Tesla Tap.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Did Energica call and ask you? I've yet to have that question asked.
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Did Energica call and ask you? I've yet to have that question asked.
Yes, I was asked by a Energica representative during a phone call. But I later realized I would have rather been asked if I wanted the keyless ignition (yes). I was never asked that.
More than likely, I will never use the cable for the bike--not ever. Just another piece of junk in my houses.
I normally use a Tesla Wall Connector with a Tesla Tap.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Did Energica call and ask you? I've yet to have that question asked.
Yes, I was asked by a Energica representative during a phone call. But I later realized I would have rather been asked if I wanted the keyless ignition (yes). I was never asked that.
More than likely, I will never use the cable for the bike--not ever. Just another piece of junk in my houses.
I normally use a Tesla Wall Connector with a Tesla Tap.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Odd to me that they keep asking you questions and giving you calls while I have yet to receive one call from Energica. I've reached out directly and they confirmed they have my pre-order and deposit but never ask any questions.
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Odd to me that they keep asking you questions and giving you calls while I have yet to receive one call from Energica. I've reached out directly and they confirmed they have my pre-order and deposit but never ask any questions.
Could it be your location? My phonecall came from southern CA.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Did Energica call and ask you? I've yet to have that question asked.
Yes, I was asked by a Energica representative during a phone call. But I later realized I would have rather been asked if I wanted the keyless ignition (yes). I was never asked that.
More than likely, I will never use the cable for the bike--not ever. Just another piece of junk in my houses.
I normally use a Tesla Wall Connector with a Tesla Tap.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Odd to me that they keep asking you questions and giving you calls while I have yet to receive one call from Energica. I've reached out directly and they confirmed they have my pre-order and deposit but never ask any questions.
Thats not crazy odd to me. I didn't start receiving phone calls till my bike was basically ready to ship. If you're getting your bike directly from Energica, they drop ship cables, so you might not get a call till the bike goes on a truck. I think if you're getting it from a dealer, its the dealers responsibility.
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Anybody have a pic of level 2 wall plug that comes with RS?
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Anybody have a pic of level 2 wall plug that comes with RS?
When they call you they'll ask you what plug you have. Mine came with this: https://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B08KNWPRWJ/ref=sr_1_49?crid=UWLRHC8BELAE&keywords=level+2+ev+charger&qid=1657744117&sprefix=level+2+ev+charge%2Caps%2C199&sr=8-49
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Cool, Between my Air compressors, I already have that receptacle
Thanks Big Tuna
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It is worth to state again... They will ask you which outlet you want. I actually received that.. with an adapter.. AND it works on 120 still.. effectively giving me 3 options for charging
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It is worth to state again... They will ask you which outlet you want. I actually received that.. with an adapter.. AND it works on 120 still.. effectively giving me 3 options for charging
Yep. When I bought my Ego, they also asked me what plug I wanted. I said 14-50, and it showed up at my door a few days later.
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I'm new to battery powered bikes , don't have a Ribelle yet, seen a ton of videos on charging that show how to connect to bike, But what is at the other end of cable? Does bike come with some sort of AC wall plug, Is there a home Fast charge unit that can be purchased? I guess the Energica's have a CCS1 connector. I have seen chargers on ebay for around 400 USD that have J1772 and CCS1, not sure if they will work. What is Level 1, 2 , 3 charging.
Any insite would be appreciated
There is some really good info on charging in some of the Tesla forums. TMC (Tesla motor club) is a great place to start. It will really help you to understand the limitations of lithium-ion (Li-on) batteries. There are lots of things to learn about them to do what you can to reduce degradation which results in reduced range. I don't see really anything discussed here about it.
A good rule of thumb is to not use L3 (DC) charging any more than you have too. It puts a lot of stress on the batteries. It is one of the reasons that I am considering an Energica is because they offer this and Zero doesn't. It really can help with trips.
It also looks like Energica only uses air cooling for their batteries. High temps are bad for li-ion batteries. Shallow discharge cycles are better for Li-ion than deep discharge cycles. There is a lot to learn if you want to help your battery pack to survive as long as it can.
Another good source of info is batteryuniversity.com. Some good reading here specifically. https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries
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I'm new to battery powered bikes , don't have a Ribelle yet, seen a ton of videos on charging that show how to connect to bike, But what is at the other end of cable? Does bike come with some sort of AC wall plug, Is there a home Fast charge unit that can be purchased? I guess the Energica's have a CCS1 connector. I have seen chargers on ebay for around 400 USD that have J1772 and CCS1, not sure if they will work. What is Level 1, 2 , 3 charging.
Any insite would be appreciated
There is some really good info on charging in some of the Tesla forums. TMC (Tesla motor club) is a great place to start. It will really help you to understand the limitations of lithium-ion (Li-on) batteries. There are lots of things to learn about them to do what you can to reduce degradation which results in reduced range. I don't see really anything discussed here about it.
A good rule of thumb is to not use L3 (DC) charging any more than you have too. It puts a lot of stress on the batteries. It is one of the reasons that I am considering an Energica is because they offer this and Zero doesn't. It really can help with trips.
It also looks like Energica only uses air cooling for their batteries. High temps are bad for li-ion batteries. Shallow discharge cycles are better for Li-ion than deep discharge cycles. There is a lot to learn if you want to help your battery pack to survive as long as it can.
Another good source of info is batteryuniversity.com. Some good reading here specifically. https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries
I do a lot more with li-po and li-ion than just ride motorcycles, and it always makes me wonder where people making these claims get their data from without knowing what cells have been used to construct the packs on our bikes. Without proper data, statements that a certain charge current induces 'more stress' are based on nothing.
Quick math on a napkin, the Ribelle's 21.5kWh pack has a nominal voltage of 296V and the manufacturer stated it's a 2-string pack of 81 cells per string, so 81s2p. The pack is 72Ah by dividing the kWh by the V. Since practically all cells used in automotive have a charge rate of at least 1C, these packs can be charged with at least 72A without degradation because of fast charging.
The Battery University link you referred to has this line as conclusion at the bottom:
Energy Cells, which most consumer products have, should be charged at 1C or less. Avoid so-called ultra-fast chargers that claim to fully charge Li-ion in less than one hour.
This is exactly what Energica's do when DC charging: charge at 1C.
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This is exactly what Energica's do when DC charging: charge at 1C.
I think my 2020 Esse Esse 9- charges at 2C. The nominal battery capacity is 11.7 KWH, IIRC, but charges at 24KW on CCS.
While "C" is a current capacity rating, I think it is normally about the same as the battery KWH capacity for 1-C. IOW, a 10 KWH battery that can charged at 20KW would normally be close to 2C charging, I think. Perhaps somebody here can verify.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Quick math on a napkin, the Ribelle's 21.5kWh pack has a nominal voltage of 296V and the manufacturer stated it's a 2-string pack of 81 cells per string, so 81s2p.
I don't know that it's ever been publicly stated, so I'd like to see that confirmed. I always assumed the 13.4 packs were 82s2p and the 21.5 packs were 82s3p.
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[I always assumed the 13.4 packs were 82s2p and the 21.5 packs were 82s3p.
What are the main differences between these two types of cells?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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That's not even describing cell type that's just layout. As far as I know Energica has never publicly stated the make and model of the 21.5 cells. The 13.4s were uh....... oh god it started with an E. Was it Enerdel? I can't remember.
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That's not even describing cell type that's just layout. As far as I know Energica has never publicly stated the make and model of the 21.5 cells. The 13.4s were uh....... oh god it started with an E. Was it Enerdel? I can't remember.
Okay. I will have to settle for knowing the difference between the two layouts.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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@MVetter: This site has an interview with Testoni posted on the site: https://www.emobility-engineering.com/energica-eva-ribelle/ It's quite extensive, and in the section "Battery technology" Testoni answers some battery-related questions. I'd love for them to give the exact cell used but hey, can't win them all.
@DonTom: 81s2p means 81 cells in series, 2 in parallel. The voltage is determined by the series value (Normally a nominal voltage of 3.7V per cell so 81S would yield 299.7V). When you hook up two of these in parallel (Grossly dumbed down for clarity) the voltage stays the same, but you can add both capacities of the strings. If a cell is 36Ah, and you put two in parallel, you get 72Ah capacity. Put 3 in parallel and you'd get 108Ah.
To get to 13.4kWh @299,7V you'd need ~45Ah cells, so my guess is they use 81s2p 22.5Ah cells.
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81s2p means 81 cells in series, 2 in parallel.
Oh, thanks. I never heard the term before. I understand the technical stuff well enough; I was just unfamiliar with the term.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I always assumed the 13.4 packs were 82s2p and the 21.5 packs were 82s3p.
(4) 20S2P....based on deductive reasoning not based on any industry specific knowledge...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QpnfBrM/0/54da2042/L/i-QpnfBrM-L.jpg)
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I don't think they made the jump from the 13.4 to the 21.5 based solely on cell density improvements. 20Ah cells to 32Ah cells is a hell of a jump. Plus, if they had the same number of cells, there'd be no reason to dump the smaller internal-case design housed inside the split-channel air cooled shell. It seems much more likely that they went from 2p to 3p and got a slight Ah bump in the process.
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Well, since Giampieri Testoni is quoted in the article, and he's sort-of the CTO of Energica, I tend to go with the 81s2p :P
Unless we get more than the cell layout, it's still a guess to what cells are being used. To get back to the stressfull charging, I think they operate the cells within producer margins, so if the 13.4 is charged at 2C then that's OK I guess. Looking at a study of li-ion cells and their degradation based on charging and discharging here https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenrg.2022.905710/full it looks like a charge of 2C is very close to the degradation numbers of 1C charging. But again, this is probably not the cell we have in our bikes.
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Well, since Giampieri Testoni is quoted in the article, and he's sort-of the CTO of Energica, I tend to go with the 81s2p :P
The thing is the part that mentions the 81s2p isn't quoting him; it's just mentioning it offhandedly. And then it says the "pack is rated to 300 V". But we all know the packs go to 330+. So... some discrepancies here.