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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on July 04, 2022, 04:11:17 AM
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In this video Yammie Noob (not the most reliable source for motorcycle information in my opinion and I don't care much about how his video's tend to be loaded with ads) complains about the price, features and performance of Zero's electric motorcycles. However, I think he does make some good points, especially about the add-on prices that unlock features which are already on the bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN3egt52jCQ
I should comment that I don't think the title of the clip is fair. If Zero didn't mention the upgrade options and their cost when you bought the bike, or didn't actually deliver their upgrade promises after being paid, then that would be a scam. I think what they are doing with their app store upgrades just rubs ICE motorcycle owners the wrong way. Tesla owners might be more used to this kind of marketing. I don't think Zero's marketing plan is going to be popular with many of their potential customers and might actually cut sales of their new models as people start to check out Energicas once they compare features and the total cost of the bikes, similarly configured.
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I'm not giving a view to Yammie but I imagine his complaints are identical to many others and it's just getting boring now. Zero isn't the first or only manufacturer to charge for already installed upgrades, car or bike. Yes it sucks to know you own something and can't use it to its full potential, but if you want them that badly then suck it up and pay for them like you would even if they weren't already installed. The fact is that the upgrades are cheaper than if you did need to get components swapped out or installed, and probably still cheaper than if you got the installed from the factory as it lowers Zero's production cost by not having to make multiple different versions.
The only complaint that could be had is if these new bikes with the installed but not activated upgrades were more expensive than the previous models without them. I haven't looked into this and I agree that would suck to pay more for something you don't want and can't use, however my guess would be that the cost is the same partly due to the lower production cost and because Zero could take a small hit to their profit to keep the price the same. However this is just a guess, someone else will correct me if it's wrong.
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"especially about the add-on prices that unlock features which are already on the bike"
Nothing new. Tesla does the same thing. Want auto-pilot? Download it to your Tesla Model 3 as they already have the hardware for it the day the car is purchased. You cannot buy it without the hardware installed. But it won't work without the software. The 3-hour software download will cost 6K$. Can be done at any time, such as at midnight when most people are asleep.
I downloaded a free trial version. I tried it, don't care for it. I wouldn't use it even if it were for free.
-Don- Reno, NV
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This reminded me of why I stopped watching YN’s garbage videos a long time ago. Seemingly every factual statement he made in the video was wrong. And he was so desperate to pretend that an SR/S is a slow bike that he drag raced it against a Hayabusa with a rolling 60 MPH start. That ‘busa would have walked away just as rapidly from almost any gas bike, so his stunt only proved that his channel is a waste of everyone’s time.
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The one interesting thing I spotted in this video is that it wasn't even a 2022 model SR/S they were using (wrong wheel colour, no cypher iii+ "tank" badge, and ZF14.4 not ZF14.4+ or ZF15.6+ badges on the battery).
So, their complaint about having to pay extra for something already on the bike definitely doesn't apply in this case. The navigation and reverse parking options both require a dealer install, and the extended range is not available at all. If it didn't already have them, heated grips also require a component change. The only option which doesn't require a dealer visit is the 10% charging speed increase, which wasn't available as an option when that bike was made, so I don't think it's fair to complain about having to pay for it now.
This lack of attention to detail is always what annoys me when I see these opinion type videos on You Tube.
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The one interesting thing I spotted in this video is that it wasn't even a 2022 model SR/S they were using (wrong wheel colour, no cypher iii+ "tank" badge, and ZF14.4 not ZF14.4+ or ZF15.6+ badges on the battery).
So, their complaint about having to pay extra for something already on the bike definitely doesn't apply in this case. The navigation and reverse parking options both require a dealer install, and the extended range is not available at all. If it didn't already have them, heated grips also require a component change. The only option which doesn't require a dealer visit is the 10% charging speed increase, which wasn't available as an option when that bike was made, so I don't think it's fair to complain about having to pay for it now.
This lack of attention to detail is always what annoys me when I see these opinion type videos on You Tube.
YN was clearly using the S/RS as a prop for his "rant". As usual his videos likely are more popular with the social media crowd. I almost never watch his stuff either, but this one got my attention because it mentioned Zero and I personally don't care for Zero's Tesla-style marketing. But I will admit that BMW does the same thing with their motorcycle marketing, but somehow it doesn't seem quite the same to me. Perhaps because after buying BMWs for 25 years I have become numb to their sales approach.
Still, I don't like YN's in-your-face bashing approach to his video clips. It is really unnecessary, but no doubt that makes him popular with his followers. One thing that I found interesting is why a motorcycle dealer that he is apparently associated with would loan him a bike for a prop and YN would then advise his followers to buy another brand if they want an electric motorcycle? You would think that after that clip, most dealers would be very reluctant to provide him with another motorcycle to review - unless they are not a Zero dealer and had obtained that S/RS as a trade-in on one of their ICE motorcycles, which would explain why it is not a current model.
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I've actually grown to like YN's channel over the years... it's matured somewhat, it's not as inaccurate as you make out, and it's quite cleverly directed and put together to grow the audience and incite a little controversy while it does it.
Unfortunately for Zero though this video is pretty much spot-on about how everyone feels about this stuff. The most insightful observation Spite made though was where he pointed out that maybe it wouldn't matter if the base price was $7k cheaper if you didn't want any of the software. Except it's not!
At the end of the day... I'd feel ripped off if I bought a new Zero now. So... I won't. I'm enjoying my pre-rip-off SR/F immensely but unless they backtrack on this sort of thing, Zero won't be my next EV.
Cas :)
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" I personally don't care for Zero's Tesla-style marketing."
Tesla sells every EV they can make--and they do not advertise anywhere at all.
And they have a long waiting list.
They must be doing something right.
-Don- Reno, NV
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maybe it wouldn't matter if the base price was $7k cheaper if you didn't want any of the software. Except it's not!
It's cheaper by the cost of the upgrades. So a premium SR/f is a smidge under £22k with no upgrades, those upgrades come to £1780. Is the 2022 model £1780 more expensive than what the 2021 was, or any more expensive at all? Or looking at a standard 2022 SR/s which is £20k and the upgrades come to £3808, how does that pricing compare to a 2021 model?
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" I personally don't care for Zero's Tesla-style marketing."
Tesla sells every EV they can make--and they do not advertise anywhere at all.
And they have a long waiting list.
They must be doing something right.
-Don- Reno, NV
I agree that they are very popular. I see more Model 3 cars around my area than I can count. Everyone seems to have one. They are just not for me. I like my 1998-build Saturn station wagon with its roll up windows, plastic body panels don't rust and all analog gauges with push buttons for the AM/FM radio tuning. Not a TFT flat screen in sight and the only LCD is the clock and radio station indicator.
And of course, I also ride a Royal Enfield with a kick starter and not even a trip meter on the cable-operated inaccurate speedometer. ;)
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Doesn't this Yammie Noob rent motorcycles and do videos. I sort of researched him when some stuff got linked and he seemed to be involved with some motorcycle renting connect the two parties.
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I actually like slower charging. Slower charging makes the battery last longer so I think it should be a setting when you start the charger. Come home at 8 in the evening with half a battery, put the bike on charge and set it to be just fully charged at 7 in the morning when you leave for work.
Energicas have this capability. You can set the charge rate anywhere from 1 to 15A on AC.
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One point he makes that I agree with is Zero motorcycles are already pretty expensive without shelling out $6000 more to get all the features enabled. That puts it way above any other comparable motorcycle out there, including the arguably superior Livewire. I like my Zero motorcycles, but they don't exude quality for the asking price. At least Livewire (from what I've seen) and Energica (from what I've read) look the part for the $$.
Edit: But more importantly in the grand scheme of things, this is the video people will see, not our little rebuttal thread. It's something we should care about since that drives mass perception.
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Edit: But more importantly in the grand scheme of things, this is the video people will see, not our little rebuttal thread. It's something we should care about since that drives mass perception.
That is for sure. Especially if the person watching the Noob's video is a fan of ICE and really doesn't want to see EVs taking over the market in the future.
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Wow, that was spot on ;D I'm not a YammieNoob fan either but they made great points and presented it really well. Why anybody would buy a Zero now is beyond me.
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Wow, that was spot on ;D I'm not a YammieNoob fan either but they made great points and presented it really well. Why anybody would buy a Zero now is beyond me.
Is it just the SR/F and SR/S where they do that?
I don't have a problem with them doing such. It saves us the hassle of installation when we only need a download to get something to work.
For an example, I added heated grips to my Harley. Not only did it cost me a few hundred bucks or so, it took about a day of my time. It sure would have been nice if I only needed to pay for a download and could do something else as it is being downloaded and installed.
Zero is not in business to lose money. They do whatever they can to keep the prices reasonable. Make all the bikes exactly the same and then simply sell us the software. As Tesla started doing, yet remains to be the car with the highest customer satisfaction of ALL cars in the USA (https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemorgan/2019/02/06/10-customer-experience-lessons-from-tesla/?sh=6ae65c866347)--even ICE.
"Tesla has the most loyal customers of any car company with an overall satisfaction rating of 90%. "
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yammie brought up the question of ownership, and I feel like that's a huge problem with Zero's Cypher Store DLC thing. I bought a bike (the hardware) but I'm not getting to use it unless I pay more. I understand that it's more cost-effective to manufacture one bike instead of lots of different ones, but just sell us a bike that's fully unlocked. If what they're making costs $27k, sell it for $27k. At least then we can properly compare motorcycle brands with their full specs, and at that point, it doesn't make sense to buy a Zero over the others. They're more expensive,have less power, get less range, and charge slower no matter how you configure them.. and they cost more ::)
Zero should be lowering their prices instead of trying to milk us for everything we have.
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But the thing that actually matters is, are you paying extra for the hardware that is preinstalled but can't be used unless you pay even more to unlock it? Is a 2022 model more expensive than what a 2021 model was? If it's not then there's nothing to complain about, it's just feeling entitled to have something.
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Yammie brought up the question of ownership, and I feel like that's a huge problem with Zero's Cypher Store DLC thing. I bought a bike (the hardware) but I'm not getting to use it unless I pay more. I understand that it's more cost-effective to manufacture one bike instead of lots of different ones, but just sell us a bike that's fully unlocked. If what they're making costs $27k, sell it for $27k. At least then we can properly compare motorcycle brands with their full specs, and at that point, it doesn't make sense to buy a Zero over the others. They're more expensive,have less power, get less range, and charge slower no matter how you configure them.. and they cost more ::)
Zero should be lowering their prices instead of trying to milk us for everything we have.
I will only agree if you can prove they are making a large profit. By doing it this way, we have a choice if we want to pay for the features or not.
It's probably cheaper for them just to make all the bikes the same. Some may not want the extra features. For an example, I do NOT want the heated grips on an electric bike. I ride mostly ICE in the winter and mostly electric in the summer.
But if I do want to ride electric in the winter, I use my battery heated gloves that work quite well.
And as I explained, I wouldn't use the auto-pilot on my Tesla if it were for free. So why would I want to pay extra for it? This way should keep everybody happy, but some people just don't like it because you have useless hardware until you pay for it. Not a big deal, IMO, unless it weighs a lot, gets in the way of other stuff, or things like that.
If we just wouldn't think about all the hardware being there already, then it wouldn't bother any of us. But I see it as more of an advantage. Save us the time and hassles with installation if we decide we do want some of those features.
BTW, did I hear it has a reverse that can be unlocked? That is one I would surely be glad to pay for. But Energicas come with it.
But with all of you guys complaining about it on Zeros, I do have to wonder if Zero is making a big marketing mistake. Sounds like they could lose a few sales to Energica over such things.
But I can only say I am not bothered by it. But perhaps I am used to it, because that was the way it was in my Tesla in year 2018. I am glad it is an option, as I do NOT want to pay the 6K$ for something I won't even use. BTW, I think Tesla forcing our hands to be on the steering wheel defeats the entire purpose of the autopilot. They can keep it. I am glad I didn't have to pay an extra 6K$ for it.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Sure, they're going to garner some negative feedback. But I expect, monetarily, this will be a net positive for them. Because people will buy it. To illustrate my point, Don, there is a a lot of this that goes on in the world of software and videogames. Most recently, a large company known as Blizzard Entertainment made headlines for their egregious abuse of this whole Pay-2-Unlock or Pay-2-Win model on their recent game Diablo Immortal. I mean seriously negative press. People calling for their heads, saying they'll never support the company again, blah blah blah. The most recent article I saw today is that Diablo Immortal is netting them $1 million in sales per day.
Per. Day. Negative press be damned. It works, and they know it. And now Zero is giving this a shot. Some, including me, might say this was inevitable.
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Per. Day. Negative press be damned. It works, and they know it. And now Zero is giving this a shot. Some, including me, might say this was inevitable.
And we should expect to see more and more of it in the future.
I wonder when Energica will start doing the same (I hope they don't read this! ;D ). I don't want to give them any such ideas . . .
BTW, what was that nonsense about changing the charge times with software? I have a hard time believing they would put an extra AC charger in there that needs to be activated.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah that's my main beef with the new Zeros.. the charger on the bike is software limited, as is the battery. So you're carrying around extra weight that you're not using unless you pay more. I get the convenience of unlocking it with an app, but if I don't want to unlock it, I can't physically remove that weight.
Every year in gas bike land, the bikes get better without going up in price. We expect incremental improvements. Maybe I'm coming off entitled, but I expect a better bike for the same price simply because the tech we have access to is better. Zero is charging more for every single improvement they've made.
When the Livewire dropped $8k in price and Energica came out with new bikes that are vastly better than before, for the same price, I don't see Zero staying competitive.
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I think the counter-argument for the extra pack capacity is that they’ll experience more warranty claims by letting people reach deeper into the pack, so what you’re really buying is a greater chance that they’ll need to pony up a free battery within the 5-year warranty period. Given how common it’s been to see second-hand Zero’s with replacement packs, they probably did need to either lock away more of the pack’s capacity or recoup those costs somehow. I actually wish that Energica would let me pay to reach deeper into my 13.4 pack so that I could make it to San Francisco on one charge.
I’m not defending Zero here, btw. I’m glad that my SR is sold and I never have to deal with their customer service again. My own personal experience with them was not terrible, but reading some of the stories, I’m glad I never needed anything major. I totally get why people would feel ripped off at having to pay to use hardware that’s already installed, but if a company is going to charge for upgrades, I’d rather have them activate instantly than go to a dealer, have them keep the bike way too long while they let some 18 year old kid install it upside down and backwards and then pretend that any resulting problems are not their fault.
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Yeah that's my main beef with the new Zeros.. the charger on the bike is software limited, as is the battery. So you're carrying around extra weight that you're not using unless you pay more.
Can you explain how that works with the charger and the battery? How many watts is the AC charger with and without the update? And is this BS only on the SR/S and SR/F or are they also doing it to other models?
I certainly agree on the battery & charger, I think. But I need it to be explained to me how it works first, with real numbers for KWH of the battery capacity and the charger. Both before the updates and after and the cost of each.
If you must carry a lot of dead weight without the updates, I would say that is very stupid on Zero's part. It's going to turn at least the knowable buyers off.
FWIW, I had no idea Zero was doing such stuff. The first I heard about it is in this thread.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah that's my main beef with the new Zeros.. the charger on the bike is software limited, as is the battery. So you're carrying around extra weight that you're not using unless you pay more. I get the convenience of unlocking it with an app, but if I don't want to unlock it, I can't physically remove that weight.
Every year in gas bike land, the bikes get better without going up in price. We expect incremental improvements. Maybe I'm coming off entitled, but I expect a better bike for the same price simply because the tech we have access to is better. Zero is charging more for every single improvement they've made.
When the Livewire dropped $8k in price and Energica came out with new bikes that are vastly better than before, for the same price, I don't see Zero staying competitive.
Agreed Sam! Imagine what a true 14.4kWh pack with the new cells could do to the bike! It would've made it so much more nimble with much lower weight and much more range as well. I guess the weight from having the extra 3kW charger is still acceptable. At least the FST SR should've had this option I imagine. It would've made the weight of the new SR more comparable to the old one. Now it's like 70lbs heavier.
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I guess the weight from having the extra 3kW charger is still acceptable.
Zero put in a 3KW charger that cannot be used until activated at a cost? I wouldn't think they would go that far as those cannot be all the cheap to install in every bike when some won't even be used.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I guess the weight from having the extra 3kW charger is still acceptable.
Zero put in a 3KW charger that cannot be used until activated at a cost? I wouldn't think they would go that far as those cannot be all the cheap to install in every bike when some won't even be used.
-Don- Reno, NV
Unfortunately that is the truth. All new SR/S/F bikes (except for the new SR) comes with all the (now 6.6kW) hardware pre installed. The premium has 6kW enabled while the standard has 3kW enabled. Remaining upgradable through the store. I guess Zero is betting on all who buy these to upgrade something or the other to recoup the cost. Also, the new units are a flat6 i believe? Morgan can answer exactly what that means compared to the old 3kW units. I guess, its just one 6.6kW unit and not 2 separate 3kW units.
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Shayan got in before me on this one, but yes, they are just putting the 6.6kW charger in every bike now, limiting it to 3kW for the standard models, and 6kW for the premium. Of course this means a little bit extra weight, but I would imagine not as much having twin 3kW chargers fitted. Indeed, they may well have improved the design of the 6.6kW charger, and it could even be lighter. Remember, Zero has already stated that the new 14.4+/15.6+ batteries are actually 6lbs lighter than the previous 14.4 batteries.
I know there are lots of people complaining about having to pay extra to unlock parts of the bike that they have already paid for (eg heated grips), but I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding about what is actually happening. In reality, Zero is including this hardware at no cost, in the hope that at some stage in the future, they will obtain a return on that investment when the owner activates these "upgrades".
Zero is definitely betting on future revenues, however, I think they are also covering their bets pretty well. I suspect that they are probably offsetting the cost of the additional hardware with the dealer margin that they would have to forgo when selling a Premium model over a standard one. If the owner eventually opts to upgrade, that transaction is exclusively between them and Zero, there is no dealer involved, so Zero will obtain an even higher margin.
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Sure, they're going to garner some negative feedback. But I expect, monetarily, this will be a net positive for them. Because people will buy it.
That depends on whether this initiative reduces the total overall sales of bikes. They might make more money per bike, but sell less bikes if the PR continues to be bad. This Yammie Noob video isn't the first rant I've seen about it.
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I wonder how many of the people that are complaining would actually be in the market for one of the higher end models, or even any Zero. They're not exactly cheap and I would imagine most people willing to spend at least $18.5k on a bike won't care too much about paying a little bit extra for some of the upgrades.
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I wonder how many of the people that are complaining would actually be in the market for one of the higher end models, or even any Zero. They're not exactly cheap and I would imagine most people willing to spend at least $18.5k on a bike won't care too much about paying a little bit extra for some of the upgrades.
I am definitely one of those people, I've been waiting for Zero to iron out the bugs on the SR/F before writing a check, but instead they invested in this stunt. I don't find much use in complaining, but I can vote with my wallet (I wont buy from other manufactures doing this either). I like the SR/F and appreciate the nice L2 charging capacity (that's all I have around me), I test rode one when they first came out and loved it, but Yammienoobs video has a point. Sam made a video pointing out the same thing, and I agree with both. I mean the heated grip elements are installed, they are there, why would I pay $200 to enable them to be controlled in software when I can go buy a $30 pid controller and enable them myself? How hard is it to include reverse by default? There is no gear, just SpinMotor(backward); , and that warrants another $200? Zero has already made a profit off of the hardware, they aren't selling at a loss. Its not at 'no cost' to you, you paid for it already.
I bought my FX to dip my toes into E-motos to see if I would even like it, and it sold me. I don't think my next E-moto will be a Zero though.
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I wonder how many of the people that are complaining would actually be in the market for one of the higher end models, or even any Zero. They're not exactly cheap and I would imagine most people willing to spend at least $18.5k on a bike won't care too much about paying a little bit extra for some of the upgrades.
I am definitely one of those people, I've been waiting for Zero to iron out the bugs on the SR/F before writing a check, but instead they invested in this stunt. I don't find much use in complaining, but I can vote with my wallet (I wont buy from other manufactures doing this either). I like the SR/F and appreciate the nice L2 charging capacity (that's all I have around me), I test rode one when they first came out and loved it, but Yammienoobs video has a point. Sam made a video pointing out the same thing, and I agree with both. I mean the heated grip elements are installed, they are there, why would I pay $200 to enable them to be controlled in software when I can go buy a $30 pid controller and enable them myself? How hard is it to include reverse by default? There is no gear, just SpinMotor(backward); , and that warrants another $200? Zero has already made a profit off of the hardware, they aren't selling at a loss. Its not at 'no cost' to you, you paid for it already.
I bought my FX to dip my toes into E-motos to see if I would even like it, and it sold me. I don't think my next E-moto will be a Zero though.
So if the heated grips weren't installed from the factory, would you pay $200 to have them installed? The reverse gear and on dash navigation are understandable complaints, they don't require any additional hardware and should be on the bike from the factory especially in this price range. However if I had that sort of money to spend on a bike I really wouldn't care about paying another $400 to have those features, we're talking at most like 2% of the total cost. Maybe it's just me.
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I think of all of the "upgrades" available the one that has me scratching my head is the option that allows you to tap more of the battery pack's capacity. With "range anxiety" being a big thing with most new EV buyers you would think that advertising the capacity of a larger battery on the base models, would get Zero more sales than telling their customers that it is available if you pay more in the future to use that capacity. ???
I can understand the financial logic for Zero of the higher price to dig deeper into the battery pack, but if doing so will decrease the life or reliability of the battery without letting the owner know that might happen (most likely after the 5-year battery warranty has expired), that would be a "scam". I wonder how many people would pay extra to unlock that additional capacity if they knew that doing so would impact the life of the most expensive part of the bike? And once the word gets around, would that decrease the resale value of that upgraded Zero?
This business of upgrading a Zero by paying more to unlock features installed in the bike continues to rub me the wrong way - as a motorcycle enthusiast who has been buying motorcycles for the past 60 years. One thing Zero and other EV manufacturers need to remember is that there is no vehicle customer base more conservative than motorcycle enthusiasts - or at least that is the way it has always been up until now. Has anything changed? Not in my experience during my visits to Alice's Restaurant and talking to the motorcycle owners that hang out there on Sundays. They really don't seem to have much interest in EVs. It has been several years since I have seen an electric motorcycle parked at Alice's Restaurant, where I go for breakfast every Sunday. The people buying new motorcycles that I see at that hangout are buying large-capacity BMW and KTM ICE bikes, not EVs, for similar money. And many more seem to prefer to remove their mufflers so that they can make as much noise as possible - something that you can't do when you own electric.
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So if the heated grips weren't installed from the factory, would you pay $200 to have them installed? The reverse gear and on dash navigation are understandable complaints, they don't require any additional hardware and should be on the bike from the factory especially in this price range. However if I had that sort of money to spend on a bike I really wouldn't care about paying another $400 to have those features, we're talking at most like 2% of the total cost. Maybe it's just me.
Yeah, $200 isn't much more than aftermarket ones, and as long as they worked well I'd rather stick with factory installed ones.
The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way. Imagine going to the store and buying a $5 box of lucky charms cereal, and you only get half of the marshmallows. But.. you can download an app and pay $2 to unlock a box at the bottom that gives you 'extra' marshmallows... then think how ridiculous that sounds.
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Someone brought up how Zero could save money importing these bikes to the UK and Europe (a big market for them). Instead of paying tax on a $27k bike, they're only paying tax on ~$20k, and nobody has to know about the upgrades. It's smart. Zero makes an even bigger profit.
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Someone brought up how Zero could save money importing these bikes to the UK and Europe (a big market for them). Instead of paying tax on a $27k bike, they're only paying tax on ~$20k, and nobody has to know about the upgrades. It's smart. Zero makes an even bigger profit.
That is something to think about. But I wouldn't be surprised if in California you got hit with a 10% state and local sales tax when you bought the after-sales options.
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I think of all of the "upgrades" available the one that has me scratching my head is the option that allows you to tap more of the battery pack's capacity. With "range anxiety" being a big thing with most new EV buyers you would think that advertising the capacity of a larger battery on the base models, would get Zero more sales than telling their customers that it is available if you pay more in the future to use that capacity. ???
I can understand the financial logic for Zero of the higher price to dig deeper into the battery pack, but if doing so will decrease the life or reliability of the battery without letting the owner know that might happen (most likely after the 5-year battery warranty has expired), that would be a "scam". I wonder how many people would pay extra to unlock that additional capacity if they knew that doing so would impact the life of the most expensive part of the bike? And once the word gets around, would that decrease the resale value of that upgraded Zero?
Agreed. I was just presenting the other side, not saying I necessarily agreed that it's the right strategy. The $200 reverse is the most glaring cash grab, in my mind. I read somewhere a while ago that these upgrades will not transfer to a second-hand buyer and will revert once a new person's Zero app gets connected to the bike. So not only will a new buyer have a battery with higher degradation, but they won't even be able to use the extra capacity unless they shell out another $2,200. So Zero has now reaped $4,400 on a single bike and all they had to do was send a couple of signals: Nice work if you can get it! If that means that the app has to phone home and communicate with the bike, though, I'm expecting these upgrades to intermittently turn themselves off given Zero's recent track record on software and firmware (like the recent incident where SR/F's were downgrading themselves to SR specs). People are already chagrined enough about these upgrades, but when people shell out of them and then they don't consistently work, it's going to result in a lot of sales for Livewire and Energica down the road.
This business of upgrading a Zero by paying more to unlock features installed in the bike continues to rub me the wrong way - as a motorcycle enthusiast who has been buying motorcycles for the past 60 years. One thing Zero and other EV manufacturers need to remember is that there is no vehicle customer base more conservative than motorcycle enthusiasts - or at least that is the way it has always been up until now. Has anything changed? Not in my experience during my visits to Alice's Restaurant and talking to the motorcycle owners that hang out there on Sundays. They really don't seem to have much interest in EVs. It has been several years since I have seen an electric motorcycle parked at Alice's Restaurant, where I go for breakfast every Sunday. The people buying new motorcycles that I see at that hangout are buying large-capacity BMW and KTM ICE bikes, not EVs, for similar money. And many more seem to prefer to remove their mufflers so that they can make as much noise as possible - something that you can't do when you own electric.
We're still in the early-adopter phase. The Experia looks amazing, but it still doesn't have semi-active suspension and many of the other desireable features of the similarly-priced Multistrada V4, and most non-enthusiasts will be turned off by the 40-min charge times. That means a few more years until the average gas bike buyer in that segment would even start to consider one, and then it's a slow build of mindshare and a slow trickle of super-fast charging and high range making their way down the price stack.
Most of the current die-hards will age out of riding before they buy electric, but e-moto's do attract people who never would have been interested in gas bikes. When I got my M1, I had no interest in ever riding or owning a gas bike, but I ended up owning a few of them because I got addicted to riding and I couldn't afford an electric. There's something about the extreme riding efficiency and ability to beat traffic that makes some people consider an electric two-wheeler who never would have had any interest in the culture of motorcycling.
By 2030, most new cars will be EV's, and anyone buying a gas machine is going to be paying similar money for something that is less powerful, has much higher fuel and operating costs, and is considered old-fashioned. Motorcycles, though, seem to be about 8-10 years behind cars given the increased difficulties of weight, available space, and handling sensitivity. Not to mention the smaller economies of scale in the e-moto industry. I do think that certain e-motorcycles will be among the top selling models by 2030, and in certain segments a company might start to sell more of an electric version than a comparable gas version, but I don't expect the majority of bikes sold to be electric until 2035 at the earliest.
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I really don't get why people complain about the fact that hardware they haven't paid for is installed but not activated - with the notable exception the extra weight of unused batteries. Just worry about what you pay for and what you get. How a manufacturer goes about delivering this is not your concern. You have not been ripped off. Using licences for activation is a perfectly sensible way of doing things. If Zero determine that it's easier/cheaper to physically install heated grips on all bike than it is to manage different versions on the production line, then everyone can win. Plus, also consider the fact that a dealer can have a bike in their showroom that is both the Standard or the Premium until a customer walk in and decides what they want to buy. No need to ship 2 bikes across the world and keep extra stock. If you want feature X later then it costs $Y - rather than $Y plus a trip to the dealer who takes a month to book it into the workshop and then keeps your bike for a few days.
If you don't think what you're getting for your money is good value then that's fine. Fair enough. But don't get worked up over how that purchase is delivered to you.
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There's no way I'd buy another Zero at this point. They have utterly priced themselves out of the market on the base prices alone. My next EV will be a LW or Energica, unless Triumph or BMW come up with something first.
Cas :)
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If you don't think what you're getting for your money is good value then that's fine. Fair enough. But don't get worked up over how that purchase is delivered to you.
The problem is this:
Zero should have been concentrating on lowering prices and increasing sales and market share. One would have hoped this Cypher store wheeze was an attempt to sell bikes cheaper. But no, somehow they've only got more expensive but without a significant material change in specification, and have less features than the competition have installed by default.
Cas :)
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For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:
locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse
The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).
if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.
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For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:
locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse
The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).
if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.
Well another way to look at it is you are spending $1,100 more for the same bike, except its now heavier. That extra 3kw charger sets you back $1500 to unlock, so a $2600 premium over the previous year but keep in mind you can buy that charger at retail for $1700 for a 2020-2021 bike. Squeeze the profit margin for the charger on the front end and maybe it will pay off big on the back end. You still payed for it, you're just paying more to use it now.
Those heated grips are a ~$40 cost to them, nav is a built in feature to that off the shelf display they have, and reverse has nothing to do with hardware and is just changing the direction of the motor and modified throttle map in software. But that's a good way to get another $600 from the consumer.
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For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:
locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse
The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).
if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.
I'm confused. Where do you seen that both the 2.9kW and 3.6kW charging is locked on the 2022 SR/F standard? The website says the 2022 SR/F standard has 3.0 kW charging as a standard feature. The cypher store offers 10% more charging for $195 or 100% faster charging for $1495. Since neither are dealer installed, then I could agree that there is likely a second 3kW on board charger that is not functioning, but not two that aren't functioning.
Also, buying a SR/F standard and getting the cypher upgrade for 100% faster charging will be cheaper for those buyers won't don't want/need heated grips since the cypher upgrade is $600 less than buying an SR/F premium.
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2022 SR/Fs and SR/S now come with a single 6kW charger, limited to either 3kw or 6kw, and you can choose to bump the 3kW to 6kW or the 6kW to ~6.5kW
The SR is the only bike with the 3kW chargers of previous models
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For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:
locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse
The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).
if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.
Well another way to look at it is you are spending $1,100 more for the same bike, except its now heavier. That extra 3kw charger sets you back $1500 to unlock, so a $2600 premium over the previous year but keep in mind you can buy that charger at retail for $1700 for a 2020-2021 bike. Squeeze the profit margin for the charger on the front end and maybe it will pay off big on the back end. You still payed for it, you're just paying more to use it now.
Those heated grips are a ~$40 cost to them, nav is a built in feature to that off the shelf display they have, and reverse has nothing to do with hardware and is just changing the direction of the motor and modified throttle map in software. But that's a good way to get another $600 from the consumer.
Yes the 3kW charger is $1700 but i'm guessing that the dealer install labor charges will be around $500-700. i paid ~$700 to get the 6kW charger installed for my 2020 SR/F standard. So the overall price for the 3kW charger will be $2200-2500. If the buyers can do the install themselves then they save on the labor costs, but thats unlikely for most cases.
I forgot to re-iterate that carrying all the unused extra weight hurts the range badly. Even an extra 50lbs is ~10% of the bike's weight. So somewhat 10% difference in range.
For the argument that "we already paid for it", here is something to consider. The 2022 SR/F standard is $20,095 and the previous SR/F's were $18,995 so an increase in $1,100. This difference cannot pay for all the extra hardware on the bike right? This includes:
locked 2.9kWh
locked 3.6kW charging
locked heated grips
locked nav and reverse
The increase in $1.1k probably is mostly inflation + other general increase in parts costs (maybe new cells cost more?).
if the argument is that we already paid for this, the 2019-2021 FST bikes were a rip off then? (as they had none of these hardware pre installed).
And we had to pay dealer install fee to get these installed post purchase too.
I'm confused. Where do you seen that both the 2.9kW and 3.6kW charging is locked on the 2022 SR/F standard? The website says the 2022 SR/F standard has 3.0 kW charging as a standard feature. The cypher store offers 10% more charging for $195 or 100% faster charging for $1495. Since neither are dealer installed, then I could agree that there is likely a second 3kW on board charger that is not functioning, but not two that aren't functioning.
Also, buying a SR/F standard and getting the cypher upgrade for 100% faster charging will be cheaper for those buyers won't don't want/need heated grips since the cypher upgrade is $600 less than buying an SR/F premium.
So, I mentioned 2.9kWh and that is the locked battery capacity (17.3 - 14.4)
and 3.6kW is the locked charging capability (6.6 - 3)
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If you don't think what you're getting for your money is good value then that's fine. Fair enough. But don't get worked up over how that purchase is delivered to you.
If the hardware is installed you have paid for it. Removing extra hardware at point of manufacture would reduce the cost of making the bike.
No.
1. It's not yours if you haven't paid for it.
2. Let's say the hardware costs $100 and it costs $200 per bike to have a branch in the production line where the bikes are manufactured differently - then it's cheaper to fit them to all. It may make the bikes cheaper and be a way for Zero to reduce prices. I don't know Zero's numbers, but for many products it does work out better this way.
Obviously, Zero's prices have gone up. It's fair enough to complain about that. Maybe it's the same supply chain pressures that everyone's facing and the bikes would be even more expensive without this trick. Maybe it's Zero beeing greedy. I have no idea.
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er and be a way for Zero to reduce prices. I don't know Zero's numbers, but for many products it does work out better this way.
Obviously, Zero's prices have gone up. It's fair enough to complain about that. Maybe it's the same supply chain pressures that everyone's facing and the bikes would be even more expensive without this trick. Maybe it's Zero beeing greedy. I have no idea.
I don't think the prices went up as much as the value of our dollars went down. We would see how cheap Zeros really are if we could pay with gasoline instead of cash and then compare to a few years back.
-Don- Cisco Grove, CA (Charging 2017 Zero SR at 8.0 KW)
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If a part is installed on the bike you buy, you have paid for the part. If you have paid for a part it should function.
But you have not paid for the software to make it function.
I think I see more advantages than disadvantages of this new way. But it's really not that new. Tesla has been doing it for years with their 6K$ autopilot.
Installing software is usually easier than installing the hardware.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Tesla has been doing it for years with their 6K$ autopilot.
Well yes, and no. The computer is not just for FSD, it's for a lot of other things. You pay for the development of an extra software package. Think of it as your home computer. When you buy it with a decent operating system, or with Windows (Sorry, couldn't resist) you can do basic stuff like browsing and email. But if you want to use the computer for, let's say, flying a simulator you'll have to pay for the software. I think $6k is a bit steep for what you get but they can ask what they want and as long as it works, it works.
In this case it's more than just software; it's disabled hardware. Tesla used that to bring the price of the M3 SR down below an incentive threshold, but when that went south they changed their ways. In this case, they give you a 15.6kWh battery but really it's a 17.1kWh battery and for a price you get the extra 1.5kWh. The charger is a 6kW model but you get 3kW and for a price, you get the full 6kW.
This brings up a nice point for the buyers; If a company advances in technology, and you buy that technology, you'd expect to be able to use that technology. But now the company sells you the new tech, but allows you to use it like it's old tech until you pay extra. Would you buy the bike for a higher price if all the premium features were enabled? And, if these features are enabled, are they enabled for the bike retaining a resale value or only for the owner, losing the features when selling the bike?
IMHO, Zero is doing nothing wrong business wise but it feels wrong. You buy it, you use it. All of it. And if it costs more, it costs more.
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As I have said before, motorcycle enthusiasts are a very conservative bunch - especially compared with Tesla buyers. This type of marketing is just not going to fly with most current motorcycle owners, especially when they are dipping their toes into EV from ICE. Once the word gets out about how Zero is selling their bikes with advertised features that will need to be "unlocked" for a fee, buyers will be staying away from Zero motorcycles in droves and heading toward LiveWires, Energica (if they have the money) or other lower-priced brands in the future. If dealers are going to fully inform their potential customers regarding the various models, prices and upgrades being offered by Zero, it will send their customer's heads spinning. Frankly, I just don't see their sales increasing in the future if Zero continues along this marketing path. ???
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As I have said before, motorcycle enthusiasts are a very conservative bunch - especially compared with Tesla buyers. This type of marketing is just not going to fly with most current motorcycle owners, especially when they are dipping their toes into EV from ICE. Once the word gets out about how Zero is selling their bikes with advertised features that will need to be "unlocked" for a fee, buyers will be staying away from Zero motorcycles in droves and heading toward LiveWires, Energica (if they have the money) or other lower-priced brands in the future. If dealers are going to fully inform their potential customers regarding the various models, prices and upgrades being offered by Zero, it will send their customer's heads spinning. Frankly, I just don't see their sales increasing in the future if Zero continues along this marketing path. ???
The way I see it, is if they advertise it correctly, there is no real issue. As long as new buyers know what the price includes, there is no issue.
I guess we will have to wait and see how it all works out for Zero. If I were to buy a Zero, this would not bother me a bit.
-Don- Auburn, CA