ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Electric Motorcycle News => Topic started by: Richard230 on May 11, 2022, 03:32:10 AM
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H-D previews their new LiveWire S2 Del Mar electric motorcycle model: https://www.motorcycle.com/new-model-preview/2023-livewire-s2-del-mar-launch-edition-first-look.html
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80 HP puts it on par with the SR, but the city range implies the battery is about 7.2 kWh like the FXS. The price is a big jump over FXS/E and if you use that extra power, your ride is going to be really short. I like that the competition is trying, but this is not appealing to me. Besides the power and L2 charging are there other things I missed that would make this appealing over the FXS/E?
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I suppose that limited range is what happens when they want a high voltage but low(er) weight. It's $1k more expensive than a DS with a charge tank (to better compete with the L2 charging) but nearly twice the power, probably a fair bit heavier but likely better components and build quality. I'd say it's a competitive option, only thing I don't like is the 19" wheels.
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I suppose that limited range is what happens when they want a high voltage but low(er) weight. It's $1k more expensive than a DS with a charge tank (to better compete with the L2 charging) but nearly twice the power, probably a fair bit heavier but likely better components and build quality. I'd say it's a competitive option, only thing I don't like is the 19" wheels.
It's a city bike... and if your city is anything like where I live, those wheels come in very handy for traversing potholes instead of getting swallowed up by them.
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I have my fair share of potholes around here, but I'm on a bike so they're fairly easy to avoid. The larger wheels add weight, air resistance, make for worse handling, reduce range, and limit tyre choices. It's purely an aesthetic choice.
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I was thinking about getting one of these but now I doubt it. Not much in the specification department that I can see. How are they going to get to their sales expectations? I can see it is kind of close to the livewire one in price and no indication of what sort of fees are associated with buying one?
The Norton Commando used 19 inch wheels, Motocross bikes use a 19 inch rear. Isn't the 19 inch front pretty common?
The good news I see wandering around the livewire site is that for the one model the owners manual and parts sheets are downloadable. https://www.livewire.com/resources
All I get on anderoid smart phone is the text chat at livewire.com
"By placing this order, I agree to the LiveWire™ Terms of Use, and Privacy Policy."
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Nothing wrong with 19" wheels - ask any GS rider. They handle better over shitty road surfaces and tbh I never noticed any worse handling on perfect road surfaces either. I'd go so far to say that the GS is the best handling road bike ever built.
Cas :)
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Nothing wrong with 19" wheels - ask any GS rider. They handle better over shitty road surfaces and tbh I never noticed any worse handling on perfect road surfaces either. I'd go so far to say that the GS is the best handling road bike ever built.
Cas :)
Which GS, exactly? Surely not the R80 G/S or R1200GS ? Those aren't road bikes... And I had the misfortune to rent a near-new 2006 R1200GS in Australia for a planned 8000km trip. Most unreliable bike I've ever ridden, and ended up having to be towed back to the dealer mid-trip. Quite mediocre handling. The F650GS-Dakar we rented with it was better in every respect.
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As for the S2 Del Mar, without actual numbers for battery capacity, range, power, acceleration and weight, this isn't really a preview, just a teaser. If indeed this a 7kWh bike, still far too expensive (should cost $8000-10000 at worst).
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Nothing wrong with 19" wheels - ask any GS rider. They handle better over shitty road surfaces and tbh I never noticed any worse handling on perfect road surfaces either. I'd go so far to say that the GS is the best handling road bike ever built.
Cas :)
Which GS, exactly? Surely not the R80 G/S or R1200GS ? Those aren't road bikes... And I had the misfortune to rent a near-new 2006 R1200GS in Australia for a planned 8000km trip. Most unreliable bike I've ever ridden, and ended up having to be towed back to the dealer mid-trip. Quite mediocre handling. The F650GS-Dakar we rented with it was better in every respect.
I've done about 100,000 miles on GSs over the last 20 years :P 1150GS, 1150GSA, 1200GS, 1200GSA x 2. The best handling of the bunch was the 1150GS I think. Just amazed at how much faster I could go on any of them compared to any other bike I'd ever owned, despite being only half the power.
Cas :)
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I was thinking about getting one of these but now I doubt it. Not much in the specification department that I can see. How are they going to get to their sales expectations? I can see it is kind of close to the livewire one in price and no indication of what sort of fees are associated with buying one?
The Norton Commando used 19 inch wheels, Motocross bikes use a 19 inch rear. Isn't the 19 inch front pretty common?
The good news I see wandering around the livewire site is that for the one model the owners manual and parts sheets are downloadable. https://www.livewire.com/resources
All I get on anderoid smart phone is the text chat at livewire.com
"By placing this order, I agree to the LiveWire™ Terms of Use, and Privacy Policy."
It's $8k cheaper than the One, I wouldn't call that close. The fact that motocross bikes use 19" on the rear and 19" fronts exist is irrelevant, this isn't a bike you put knobbies on and most 19" tyres will be too narrow. It looks like the Del Mar uses the same width rims and tyres front and rear.
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Nothing wrong with 19" wheels - ask any GS rider. They handle better over shitty road surfaces and tbh I never noticed any worse handling on perfect road surfaces either. I'd go so far to say that the GS is the best handling road bike ever built.
Cas :)
Which GS, exactly? Surely not the R80 G/S or R1200GS ? Those aren't road bikes... And I had the misfortune to rent a near-new 2006 R1200GS in Australia for a planned 8000km trip. Most unreliable bike I've ever ridden, and ended up having to be towed back to the dealer mid-trip. Quite mediocre handling. The F650GS-Dakar we rented with it was better in every respect.
As far as I am concerned, my 2009 BMW F650GS twin handles better than my R1200RS, especially on bumpy back roads. And a lot better than my Zero S with its top-heavy Power Tank and too firm suspension. ;)
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Ah will that be the new R1200RS that doesn't have telelever? That was the other magic ingredient in GS-dominance. (Strange that they ditched it from all the other models despite it being so much obviously better??)
Cas :)
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Ah will that be the new R1200RS that doesn't have telelever? That was the other magic ingredient in GS-dominance. (Strange that they ditched it from all the other models despite it being so much obviously better??)
Cas :)
I had traded in my 2007 R1200R with ESA for the 2016 R1200R with ESA. The RS seems to handle more sharply than the 2007 R, but its ESA is not as good as it was the 2007 bike, which gave a smoother and more secure ride than the RS. I too liked its front end design. No diving and it functioned better in my opinion.
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Nothing wrong with 19" wheels - ask any GS rider. They handle better over shitty road surfaces and tbh I never noticed any worse handling on perfect road surfaces either. I'd go so far to say that the GS is the best handling road bike ever built.
Cas :)
Which GS, exactly? Surely not the R80 G/S or R1200GS ? Those aren't road bikes... And I had the misfortune to rent a near-new 2006 R1200GS in Australia for a planned 8000km trip. Most unreliable bike I've ever ridden, and ended up having to be towed back to the dealer mid-trip. Quite mediocre handling. The F650GS-Dakar we rented with it was better in every respect.
As far as I am concerned, my 2009 BMW F650GS twin handles better than my R1200RS, especially on bumpy back roads. And a lot better than my Zero S with its top-heavy Power Tank and too firm suspension. ;)
This was a honeymoon, wife & myself + full camping gear on two bikes. Western Australia only has (or had, at the time) one BMW dealership, in Perth.(*)
we left the bike 1000km away at a campground, to be towed, but now had to make our way back to Perth 2-up on the F650 to get a replacement bike.
This was the original liquid-cooled Rotax-single 650, which BMW called "Funduro", not the later twin; the F650 was already well-used when we got it, with ~46K km and 2 y.o., but managed this beautifully, carrying 2 + 40kg of luggage, and still managed to return 23 km/l at 120 km/h (54 mpg at 75mph). And that with low, dirt-oriented gearing and a 19" front wheel. It also managed fine with aux loads on the battery connected directly (battery chargers, communicators etc.), whereas on the R1200 they worked at best half the time.
(*) The next closest dealership was 2700km away, in Adelaide, across the Nullarbor Plain .
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Just thought of something... with all this talk of the Del Mar... whatever happened to the Sondors Metacycle? Did they ever start shipping those things? I haven't seen any posts from new owners... almost as if they just dropped off the map...
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Just thought of something... with all this talk of the Del Mar... whatever happened to the Sondors Metacycle? Did they ever start shipping those things? I haven't seen any posts from new owners... almost as if they just dropped off the map...
I don't know anything about Sondors, but it does seem to me as if most electric motorcycle startups that come out with a concept bike and big marketing plans are initially trolling for investors and when they don't get enough funding to actually set up a manufacturing plant, distribution network, and all of the other expensive and time-consuming things you need in this age to market a vehicle, they apparently just fold up and disappear.
Just take a look at the brand sub-forums on this site that are no longer with us. And those are the old ones, lots of new brands have popped up during the last few years, never to be heard from again. I hear that even Rivan trucks, which seemed to be well funded are now on the rocks. ???
It is a tough life out there for the little guy with no vehicle manufacturing experience, an established retail distribution network and really deep pockets, like H-D. Note that the big Japanese brands are still not willing to jump into the electric motorcycle market with anything more than low-power city bike concepts, which are not much more than mopeds. You need to make money to stay in business and it seems to me that the consumer, for a variety of reasons (mostly due to cost and range) is just not willing to give up ICE motorcycles and embrace electric power as a mode of transportation, as is slowly happening with private automobiles.
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Just thought of something... with all this talk of the Del Mar... whatever happened to the Sondors Metacycle? Did they ever start shipping those things? I haven't seen any posts from new owners... almost as if they just dropped off the map...
I don't know anything about Sondors, but it does seem to me as if most electric motorcycle startups that come out with a concept bike and big marketing plans are initially trolling for investors and when they don't get enough funding to actually set up a manufacturing plant, distribution network, and all of the other expensive and time-consuming things you need in this age to market a vehicle, they apparently just fold up and disappear.
Just take a look at the brand sub-forums on this site that are no longer with us. And those are the old ones, lots of new brands have popped up during the last few years, never to be heard from again. I hear that even Rivan trucks, which seemed to be well funded are now on the rocks. ???
It is a tough life out there for the little guy with no vehicle manufacturing experience, an established retail distribution network and really deep pockets, like H-D. Note that the big Japanese brands are still not willing to jump into the electric motorcycle market with anything more than low-power city bike concepts, which are not much more than mopeds.
They are mopeds, not in the literal sense of having pedals, but they're equivalent to 50cc scooters in acceleration & speed (top and cruising). A bit less range, though still fine for the purpose. This is really the only category where BEV 2-wheelers are already cost-effective, and as a result millions are sold per year in Asia... Also because many cities have banned 2-stroke or small ICEV scooters.
I thought the next category, 125cc-equivalent, examples of which started showing up 2-3 years ago, would establish itself quickly -- those can handle highway stretches at 70+ mph, and have a lot more range (80-100mi), so can be used for suburban commuting safely with cars. However, no signs it's happening.
You need to make money to stay in business and it seems to me that the consumer, for a variety of reasons (mostly due to cost and range) is just not willing to give up ICE motorcycles and embrace electric power as a mode of transportation, as is slowly happening with private automobiles.
The only way to do this would be via regulation. Subsidize BEV scooters and/or make ICEV ones illegal that aren't full-on motorcycles.
As for large motorcycles -- range is simply insufficient for any type of day trip or touring. That requires 3x the battery of current state-of-the-art models, with no increase whatsoever in weight or price. I don't see that anytime soon.
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I wonder what sort of traction control it has?
I also wonder how much more power it is capible of with modifications?
It isn't really clear what the modules are in the modular construction. I had a 2000 F150 with a modular engine and the modular business was in the equipment at the factory to make the various choices.
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Speaking of startups: there was a disturbing article printed my my newspaper today, published by the New York Times, written by Erin Griffith and titled " Fear and loathing return to tech startups". What it claims is that that investors are bailing out of funding startups as they believe that there is no future for them this year, due to inflation, rising interest rates and the war in Ukraine. While it is just a general statement about small startup companies and there is no mention of EV startups, I imagine that this trend in not good news for the introduction and manufacturing of new electric motorcycles.
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Here is Revzilla's take on the new LiveWire S2 Del Mar model: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/2023-livewire-s2-del-mar-le-first-look
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Here is Revzilla's take on the new LiveWire S2 Del Mar model: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/2023-livewire-s2-del-mar-le-first-look
Basically, the same bullshit as every "article" by a wannabee journalist calling it a "pre-sale".