ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: DonTom on April 29, 2022, 11:10:40 PM
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Do others find CCS chargers to be ridiculously unreliable?
I wanted to go for a long ride on my Energica today, but every direction has the CCS chargers out of service. Carson City, Garnerville, Falon, Hawthorne, NV -all CCS chargers down according to Plugshare. Donner Summit Rest both directions, CCS is out as well as several other places. Even when they are not out, sometimes they are difficult to get past the initiation process without a failure message and takes several tries.
And when they are down, it is often for months before they are fixed.
Is this a world-wide issue?
-Don- Reno, NV
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In NL the CSS chargers show available on Plugshare and Shell Recharge so it's regional I'm afraid.
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Yep, they're often f*cked here in the UK too. I suppose the problem is that they have a great big AC/DC converter in them delivering loads of power and they just keep going pop, just like the rubbishy little ones in Zeros.
Cas :)
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These bikes have a short timeout for communications with the CCS stations. That's why I advise two things:
1.) Never ever ever ever ever plug in first. I don't care what the station says. I initiate the charge sequence and plug in last. Very last step.
2.) I position my bike either by pulling up at an angle with the front wheel facing to the right of the station or entirely perpendicular in the parking spot with the kickstand side towards the station. This means when I plug in there is pressure from the weight of the cable pushing downward on the CP pin (communications). I have seen stations fail to start because the weight of the cable is pulling it down which makes a bad connection on CP despite the cable lock.
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The tip Energica UK gave me is to just lean on the connector a little until the pin comes up and as a result I rarely have communication failures. As MVetter said the heavy cable can tug the connector slightly out of place before it locks so I always try to drape it over one of the handlebars.
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That too is a thing, but most of the time, the machines are literally not working at all.
Cas :)
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You don't hear such nuisance w/ Tesla owners using Tesla charge stations...there's a clear reason why.
Connector manufacturers of different brands do not comply to specifications or interpret specifications for standards differently and add tolerance stack-up for pin-socket engagement because again the bit parts are sourced from different suppliers and this reliability issue becomes commonplace in many industries...
Tesla is vertically integrated and efficient at procurement and engineering across product families that work in harmony, simple reason.
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You don't hear such nuisance w/ Tesla owners using Tesla charge stations...there's a clear reason why.
Connector manufacturers of different brands do not comply to specifications or interpret specifications for standards differently and add tolerance stack-up for pin-socket engagement because again the bit parts are sourced from different suppliers and this reliability issue becomes commonplace in many industries...
Tesla is vertically integrated and efficient at procurement and engineering across product families that work in harmony, simple reason.
Yes, unlike Tesla, CCS runs a very complicated program so it can charge almost any size EV battery of almost any voltage, etc. That's asking for trouble. Zero is just a bit too low of a voltage--but I think I heard somewhere that even Zero was trying to get their low voltage battery to work with CCS at first. But I guess that was asking for a bit too little of a voltage from CCS.
And I too have noticed to NOT follow the instructions to get a CCS charge on an Energica. It is more likely to work by not plugging in first, unlike what most CCS charger say "Plug in first". But once in a while that does work also. Depends on the make of charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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These bikes have a short timeout for communications with the CCS stations. That's why I advise two things:
1.) Never ever ever ever ever plug in first. I don't care what the station says. I initiate the charge sequence and plug in last. Very last step.
2.) I position my bike either by pulling up at an angle with the front wheel facing to the right of the station or entirely perpendicular in the parking spot with the kickstand side towards the station. This means when I plug in there is pressure from the weight of the cable pushing downward on the CP pin (communications). I have seen stations fail to start because the weight of the cable is pulling it down which makes a bad connection on CP despite the cable lock.
Why doesn't Energica increase the timeout time for the initiation?
I didn't know about issue number 2 above. I have been doing that one all wrong, so thanks for that info. That could explain some of my intermittent issues.
But what I am complaining here now with this thread is the countless CCS chargers that are off line for everybody. Down for various reasons. Even when for FW upgrades as in Carson City right now. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/89838)
That's an important location for me and it's the only CCS charger for many miles. And they only have the one there.
Why does it take weeks to complete a FW update? I would think an hour would be more than enough time for a FW update.
-Don- Reno, NV
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DomTom, Zero actually offered a CHAdeMO adapter for awhile. I had one on order for about six months for my Zero SR before Zero canceled it. Their system worked well with some systems, not so well on others. Unfortunately for me the systems their CHAdeMO system worked well with were primarily on the east coast and the systems around Zero were the ones that it didn't work so well with. Rather than tweak their adapter they gave up.
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DomTom, Zero actually offered a CHAdeMO adapter for awhile. I had one on order for about six months for my Zero SR before Zero canceled it. Their system worked well with some systems, not so well on others. Unfortunately for me the systems their CHAdeMO system worked well with were primarily on the east coast and the systems around Zero were the ones that it didn't work so well with. Rather than tweak their adapter they gave up.
Just to clarify your statement, Zero couldn't have made the CHAdeMO system work simply by changing their plug. The specification for the system at the time was supposed to include down to 50 volts. Since nearly all electric cars run in the hundreds of volts, most of systems actually built wouldn't charge under something like 200 volts. Technically, that made the systems not CHAdeMO compliant, but Zero can't do anything about that. Since then (2017ish maybe), the CHAdeMO minimum voltage specification has been upped to 150 volts.
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Zero's story is that stations weren't compliant. A closer look, however, reveals that Zero was nowhere near being in compliance with Chademo's standards. The bikes only have half a contactor for starters.
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Zero's story is that stations weren't compliant. A closer look, however, reveals that Zero was nowhere near being in compliance with Chademo's standards. The bikes only have half a contactor for starters.
What is a "half" contactor?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Just one terminal? Just plus or minus side not both?
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Just one terminal? Just plus or minus side not both?
An open circuit is an open circuit either way. How could the charger even know the difference?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Why doesn't Energica increase the timeout time for the initiation?
IKR, Gridserve is a major charging network here, they're the guys with those big electric forecourts and I discovered today (I rarely use them because they're mainly on motorways) that the shiny new units they've just finished a major replacement program with ... are strict connector first with anti-ramp bumps about a half meter from the unit and a sprung tether on the cable. Thankfully the one I went to was attended so I could get the attendant to help, I kept timing out.
But what I am complaining here now with this thread is the countless CCS chargers that are off line for everybody. Down for various reasons.
Yeah, that's a big issue for sure. I went on a weekend away with some petrol powered friends and a charger that would have been perfect for our route was out for months due to parts supply, single unit location, only DC charger for 25 miles in any direction and all the other ones are also singles. The one I ended up at instead someone had run over the CCS connector and after the company didn't bother to do anything about it (it was still activated!) a local had duct taped it back together (it worked).
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What is a "half" contactor?
Only the negative side is switched. Part of Chademo's protocols demand full switching on contactors.
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Only the negative side is switched. Part of Chademo's protocols demand full switching on contactors.
Oh, I have never taken a good look at a CHAdeMO. It must have a way to detect if both sides are open.
BTW, today, I rode my Energica to Carson City, Silver Springs, Fernley and all three CCS chargers worked perfectly and on the very first try. I made sure my kickstand was on the charger side. I really think that helps.
I slowly J-1772 charged on USA Parkway as I was having dinner.
I updated all these on Plugshare to say they are now all working.
Carson City needs more DC fast chargers. There is only one. I had to wait for it then 2 others were waiting for me. And all three of them needed to use CHAdeMO, but this stupid machine cannot do both (CCS & CHAdeMO) at once.
I hear there are a few these days that can do both at once.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Is it really that hard for Energica to program the fast charging to not time out? I've never heard or had this problem on other EVs.
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No, it is trivial. What is needed is 500 of you Energica owners to email them and complain about it.
Cas :)
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E-mail who? There isn't really an official line of communication to Energica.
I wonder if europeans have this problem as well or this is specific to US chargers?
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Yes to the OP. My experience with two Energicas is that they can be a PITA to charge on networked DCFC stations. A lengthy phone call usually eventually gets the charge going, but that's not a good selling point.
Just my theory: If Energica was not a small player, the big dog chargers might be more attentive. But E isn't, and the big dogs aren't.
I admit there may be a zillion additional variables. So proposed humbly: Yo Energica, please consider contacting the various DCFC vendors so we owners may enjoy a satisfactory and stress free experience.
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I would not place all the blame on Energica. My experience with charging the Livewire around town varies greatly as well. Some Chargepoint chargers work great and some don't, some EVGos work great, some don't. So far, all CCS is just chaos. I do not know what to expect if I have never used a particular charger.
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E-mail who? There isn't really an official line of communication to Energica.
I wonder if europeans have this problem as well or this is specific to US chargers?
I'm in Europe and I've had no issues with specific DC chargers. I'm using mostly FastNed (300 kW), Ionity (350 kW), Allego (50 & 350 kW), Powerland (50 & 350 kW) and those at Lidl stores (50 kW) and the ones at the gas stations (often the same 50 kW types of the Lidl ones)
There is a known issue with V3 Tesla Super Chargers, never got it working on those. On V2 it does work. And it is something Tesla/Energica specific cause our Mercedes EQV does work also on V3.
Sometimes the "handshake" times out but that is almost always because I was too late with my badge on the paid ones. I have an IONITY paid subscription and another card for all the other networks (not the best rate obv.).
(https://i.ibb.co/5LPSSH7/E231-DCB5-ED0-F-4193-BEB1-729-CD75-AAAAF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3cnjjZJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/XfH8dnf/IMG-0796.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Myd6jzy)
(https://i.ibb.co/LxTBxxM/IMG-0998.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tq0nqqS)
(https://i.ibb.co/pyDCh32/IMG-1004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/16VHz9Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/5n7M9dF/IMG-1818.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2fW3xJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/qy9KrsT/IMG-1913.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RvPfD0R)
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I'm mad jelly, I can't plug into Superchargers over here in the states :(
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There is a known issue with V3 Tesla Super Chargers, never got it working on those. On V2 it does work. And it is something Tesla/Energica specific cause our Mercedes EQV does work also on V3.
I am curious how you can use ANY Tesla Supercharger. What type of adapter do you use and why can it not be done in the USA?
-Don- Tom's Place, CA (RV trip with my Zero DS)
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The EU has standardized the Type2 CCS connector, and made it mandatory for type approval to include it in the ev design. So in the EU all vehicles and evse’s have the same connector: Mennekes for AC, Mennekes CCS for DCFC. So we need no adapters here, Tesla had to retrofit the SC’s with CCS to keep compliant and to allow charging of the Model 3 which is sold in the EU with the mandatory CCS connector. Since a few countries here are in a pilot to allow non-Tesla’s acces, any EV sold currently can use the SC network in those countries. The EU rules mostly suck pretty hard but standardising charging is one of the few things they did right. We used to have J1772 (Zero, some cars), Mennekes, and ChaDeMo and now only Mennekes for AC and CCS for DCFC.
TL;DR The EU has standardised CCS so no adapters needed in the EU.
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Indeed what Skidz said 8). For now only the full network in the Netherlands and a collection of pilots (more and more) in Norway and France. But they are expanding.
That said my Energica doesn't want to take a charge from either V2 or V3. I was at a V2 this weekend with a Ribbele that did work properly. And I've seen many pictures from the Dutch riders where they are able to charge. So must be something missing on my bike (likely charge controller FW).
I also discovered that the type2 mennekes charger found as second lead on V2 chargers has an extra tab in the connector making it NOT fit the standard type 2 mennekes used for AC charging in EU. Good thing probably cause it provides DC instead of AC :D.
Anyway, except for my issues with Tesla DC charging has been reliable for me. It does look like they fix stuff also so taking it to a dealer for a flash should improve compatibility from time to time.
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I just heard a report on KCBS, the San Francisco news radio station. An inspection of 181 public fast charging stations around the San Francisco Bay Area was performed recently by a group of researchers and they found that 25% of them were broken in one way or another and were non-functional. Another 5% had charging cables that were too short to reach some electric vehicle charging ports. The reporter said that those maintenance and design problems were going to need to be solved if California wanted to eventually replace most ICE cars with electric-powered ones in the future.
Tesla charging stations were not surveyed in this study.
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Tesla charging stations were not surveyed in this study.
Tesla Superchargers rarely have problems. But they only have to deal with Teslas, which makes it much easier than CCS.
-Don- Tom's Place, CA
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I just heard a report on KCBS, the San Francisco news radio station. An inspection of 181 public fast charging stations around the San Francisco Bay Area was performed recently by a group of researchers and they found that 25% of them were broken in one way or another
The SF Bay area sound more reliable than many other areas. I would have expected more than half to have problems.
Often, a place with two CCS chargers, only one will work.
-Don- Tom's Place, CA
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I just heard a report on KCBS, the San Francisco news radio station. An inspection of 181 public fast charging stations around the San Francisco Bay Area was performed recently by a group of researchers and they found that 25% of them were broken in one way or another
The SF Bay area sound more reliable than many other areas. I would have expected more than half to have problems.
Often, a place with two CCS chargers, only one will work.
-Don- Tom's Place, CA
It is a really good thing that half of a Costco's gas station pumps are not working. ::)
Speaking of Costco, I wonder when they will be installing a long row of cheap fast charging stations for their members? ;)
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Fallon NV=The only CCS charger in the area has been broken since Feb 12.
Silver Springs, NV= Both of the CCS chargers have been broken since May 5.
MiddleGate, NV, CCS broken since May 3.
Hawthorne, NV=CCS Broken since Nov of 2021.
Donner Summit West Bound, CA=CCS Broken since Oct 29, 2021.
Donner Summit East Bound, CA=CCS Broken since Jan 9.
Does anybody fix these when they break?
-Don- Reno, NV
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You'd have to ask the networks running these chargers.
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You'd have to ask the networks running these chargers.
Yeah, at Silver Springs, NV, every DC charger there, as well as the J-1772, have a screen that says "network down".
-Don- Reno, NV
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BTW, agree with DonTom that starting the charge station before plugging in may work when plugging in first doesn’t. I received that tip from an Electrify America helper, too.