ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on April 23, 2022, 03:26:22 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuRNLcKoeUE
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He already has a follow-up video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMx5NYOiyA
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My son-in-law, who loves to fix broken things and has helped me a couple of times to replace parts on my Zero, had these comments after he watched those two videos posted above: He makes it sound like the right-to-repair wars are a new thing but they have been around for decades. Car manufacturers have been proposing to "weld the hood shut" for a long time now, and there are other strategies they have employed to make their cars hard to fix outside of the dealership. That said, the modern age with miniaturized electronics and complex software makes it easier than ever for manufacturers to turn their products into black boxes.
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I know. The most "famous" Right-to-Repair cases I've heard about involve John Deere. For decades farmers have been repairing their own equipment, but John Deere has been locking them out of that for a long time now. I know there have been cases brought up because most family farmers can't afford to keep bringing broken down farming equipment to a dealership. It is a very troubling trend for sure.
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People should vote with their wallets, but by doing so you won’t have the latest Android/iPhone/Tesla/Zero/Energica. There are no real alternatives (yet?).
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Well for Android there IS an alternative but so far not in the US. I keep bugging them to start selling them here. Maybe if more voices chimed in?
https://www.fairphone.com/en/
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There's a bill in the CA legislature to address this issue but it probably won't pass: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB983
I think this is universal across all EV manufacturers - they are putting short-term profits above all else in order to raise more cash and survive and make their programs profitable. Zero isn't really the exception here.
It's a huge turn-off for me and others as well. Considering how simple these bikes are, doing any sort of repairs yourself is not easy. Most people don't want to pay $20K+ for something that becomes e-waste in a matter of years.
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I don't think that bill or similar passing will fix the fundamental longevity issue.It definitely should though.
The biggest constraints on that are the cost of the battery and motor. As long as a new battery costs 6k, most people aren't going to keep bikes running when that dies in 5-8 years. Usually it's not the few hundred dollars in service fees.
To bring EVs on par with ICE vehicles of old, you'd probably have to require that all the ecu interfaces are documented. Not just pinouts. but the CAN packets/voltage levels/etc. Dealers don't have that info. Then there's a decent chance a manufacturer could provide an alternative abattery/bms. The days of the 2010/2011 where you connect the +/- leads and a few 5V signal wire are long gone.
If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?
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My 2020 SR/F has been in the dealer's service department for over 5 weeks now. Zero has been slow to respond to each contact from the dealer (often a week to simply get a response), to the point where the dealer's service manager has been actively encouraging me to contact Zero directly myself. I finally got downright aggressive with them yesterday. As a result, the issue was escalated to Zero's director level, and now the correct part has been shipped overnight (they sent the wrong part the first time). In theory, I might get my bike back next week, a month and a half after I brought it in for a simple "the bike won't charge" issue.
I'm technologically proficient, but I can't get a manufacturer service manual for the bike. Zero is unresponsive to their own dealers, let alone the owners who purchase these premium bikes. As a result, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to repair this bike in any efficient manner.
I've been riding for nearly 50 years, and have never, ever experienced anything like this.
I sure enjoy riding this bike, but Zero is horrible. As soon as Yamaha sells electric motorcycles, I'm gone!
- Fred
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I don't think that bill or similar passing will fix the fundamental longevity issue.It definitely should though.
The biggest constraints on that are the cost of the battery and motor. As long as a new battery costs 6k, most people aren't going to keep bikes running when that dies in 5-8 years. Usually it's not the few hundred dollars in service fees.
To bring EVs on par with ICE vehicles of old, you'd probably have to require that all the ecu interfaces are documented. Not just pinouts. but the CAN packets/voltage levels/etc. Dealers don't have that info. Then there's a decent chance a manufacturer could provide an alternative abattery/bms. The days of the 2010/2011 where you connect the +/- leads and a few 5V signal wire are long gone.
If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?
At least for those of us with pre-2022 SRs and lower that use the Sevcon motor controllers, that's exactly what we did when we purchased the IXXAT cable. If the MBB or BMS ever die, rather than relying on Zero for replacements, those units can be gutted from the bike and their responsibilities programmed into Sevcon. One would likely replace the BMS with an aftermarket unit because the Sevcon isn't a BMS, but it can handle the contactor and voltage cutbacks. I suspect even the newer controllers are programmable by end-users if you can get your hands on the software. That said, for a $20k bike, I wouldn't want to have to do that out the gate.
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At least for those of us with pre-2022 SRs and lower that use the Sevcon motor controllers, that's exactly what we did when we purchased the IXXAT cable. If the MBB or BMS ever die, rather than relying on Zero for replacements, those units can be gutted from the bike and their responsibilities programmed into Sevcon. One would likely replace the BMS with an aftermarket unit because the Sevcon isn't a BMS, but it can handle the contactor and voltage cutbacks. I suspect even the newer controllers are programmable by end-users if you can get your hands on the software. That said, for a $20k bike, I wouldn't want to have to do that out the gate.
Has anyone actually succeeded doing that? I saw some talk of it, but don't recall seeing a successful attempt. But you raise a good point, if you gut and replace all the computers, that would work. But I'm not sure that counts as them being repairable. And you can do that now!
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If this bill passed, and Zero provided the dealer software, would you plunk down 500-1000 dollars for the CAN/Serial harness?
I wouldn't hesitate, put my order in tomorrow.
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My 2020 SR/F has been in the dealer's service department for over 5 weeks now. Zero has been slow to respond to each contact from the dealer (often a week to simply get a response), to the point where the dealer's service manager has been actively encouraging me to contact Zero directly myself. I finally got downright aggressive with them yesterday. As a result, the issue was escalated to Zero's director level, and now the correct part has been shipped overnight (they sent the wrong part the first time). In theory, I might get my bike back next week, a month and a half after I brought it in for a simple "the bike won't charge" issue.
I'm technologically proficient, but I can't get a manufacturer service manual for the bike. Zero is unresponsive to their own dealers, let alone the owners who purchase these premium bikes. As a result, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to repair this bike in any efficient manner.
I've been riding for nearly 50 years, and have never, ever experienced anything like this.
I sure enjoy riding this bike, but Zero is horrible. As soon as Yamaha sells electric motorcycles, I'm gone!
- Fred
So my no charge issue happened after about 3 months of ownership and was at the shop almost 7 weeks for repair. Loved the bike for the first 3 months then once this debacle took place I do not really trust the bike anymore and find myself riding it less and less. I am with you...Once big manufacturers start making electric bikes I am on it.
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Well, BMW's new scoot looks awesome...
Cas :)
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
If it was a BMW horse it would come with a 50-page owners manual filled with safety tips and lawyer warnings. The horse would also have several different exhaust modes that were factory-installed and added $3K to the price of the horse but didn't actually do anything noticeable other than pass gas. ;)
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
If it was a BMW horse it would come with a 50-page owners manual filled with safety tips and lawyer warnings. The horse would also have several different exhaust modes that were factory-installed and added $3K to the price of the horse but didn't actually do anything noticeable other than pass gas. ;)
You could also only give it BMW-Factory authorized food and keep it in an official, BMW-authorized stable. Any variation of these terms would result in a veterinarian being dispatched to euthanize your animal.
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
If it was a BMW horse it would come with a 50-page owners manual filled with safety tips and lawyer warnings. The horse would also have several different exhaust modes that were factory-installed and added $3K to the price of the horse but didn't actually do anything noticeable other than pass gas. ;)
You could also only give it BMW-Factory authorized food and keep it in an official, BMW-authorized stable. Any variation of these terms would result in a veterinarian being dispatched to euthanize your animal.
Very true and that BMW authorized hay could only be obtained from a franchised dealer with a factory-trained and certified veterinarian. And that fodder wouldn't come cheap.
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
Ditto. The airhead boxers ('82 R65LS and '77 R100RS, combined total of ~110K mi) they had various issues, but as long as you stuck rigorously to the maintenance schedule (5000 mi), were reliable.
Sometime after they introduced the K-bikes and very reliable F650GS (the Rotax single -- the most impressive BMW I've ever ridden), they started making far too many bike- and engine types for the size of the company, and quality, both of design and manufacturing, took a nosedive.
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My 2020 SR/F has been in the dealer's service department for over 5 weeks now. Zero has been slow to respond to each contact from the dealer (often a week to simply get a response), to the point where the dealer's service manager has been actively encouraging me to contact Zero directly myself. I finally got downright aggressive with them yesterday. As a result, the issue was escalated to Zero's director level, and now the correct part has been shipped overnight (they sent the wrong part the first time). In theory, I might get my bike back next week, a month and a half after I brought it in for a simple "the bike won't charge" issue.
I'm technologically proficient, but I can't get a manufacturer service manual for the bike. Zero is unresponsive to their own dealers, let alone the owners who purchase these premium bikes. As a result, it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to repair this bike in any efficient manner.
I've been riding for nearly 50 years, and have never, ever experienced anything like this.
I sure enjoy riding this bike, but Zero is horrible. As soon as Yamaha sells electric motorcycles, I'm gone!
- Fred
The basic issue is that all BEV motorcycle makers are still small startups.
Startups are in general a very bad fit for volume automotive manufacturing, in terms of the amount of design, prototyping, parts qualification, supply chain management and testing they can do.
Zero is the largest manufacturer, and they still only make mid-or-low-4-digits bikes a year.
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Based on my own personal experience with the "new BMW", if they were the last motor vehicle manufacturer on Earth, I'd buy a HORSE.
Ditto. The airhead boxers ('82 R65LS and '77 R100RS, combined total of ~110K mi) they had various issues, but as long as you stuck rigorously to the maintenance schedule (5000 mi), were reliable.
Sometime after they introduced the K-bikes and very reliable F650GS (the Rotax single -- the most impressive BMW I've ever ridden), they started making far too many bike- and engine types for the size of the company, and quality, both of design and manufacturing, took a nosedive.
The original "Flying Brick" K-bikes are practically indestructible. My first K-bike was stolen from me after ten years of ownership, but it had 158,000 miles on the odometer and still ran like it was brand new. I currently ride a 1999 K1200LT, the last of the flying bricks. It will be 23 years old in July and has nearly 230,000 miles on it. Sometime after the turn of the millennia, BMW decided that they could not be profitable selling bikes that lasted forever. The newer bikes will last MAYBE a couple of years outside of the warranty period if you're lucky. They're going after the type of consumer that needs to get a new toy every few years. That's why the proliferation of new models and into classifications they've never been in before.
They used to be like Harley Davidson... a couple of different engines, and few different frames and you'd have a showroom full of somewhat similar models that didn't change much from year to year. Now they're trying to emulate Honda, but they're doing it POORLY. Honda never lost their reliability reputation. BMW? Their reputation is in the toilet... but the roundel still has some panache so people will still buy them. As long as they don't hang on to them too long they probably won't have many complaints.
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I have a 2016 R1200R In one year I packed 20K miles on it. Yes, the maintenance on that bike is more costly than that of a Honda or Kawasaki, but it does run flawlessly. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new one. But given that I don't have many miles on this one and I have an electric from Zero, I have no need to buy another bike for a while. I don't ride the BMW much since going electric, but I like to keep it around for longer rides.
For a while BMW had a couple of issues, final drive seals and other things that I can't remember. But so has Honda and Kawasaki. I had a z900 I put 25K on and Kawasaki recalled it because the bolts on a section of the rear suspension were not tightened enough from the factory. All said, most manufacturers have issues, it is more about how they handle those issues.
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I'll just leave this here.
https://monimoto.com/blog/motorcycle-advice/most-reliable-motorcycle-brands/