ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: noyesknifer on April 11, 2022, 08:33:11 AM
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Hi, for the past couple months, the estimated range and SOC for my Zero SR/F has been around half of what it should be. Today I took a 35 mile freeway ride, and it took me from 100% to 0%. 20 minutes later I keyed the bike on to check the SOC, and the SOC is now 53%. I have completely drained the battery before and charged it, and seems like the battery capacity is OK based on my killa-watt numbers. I have the previous firmware version, the one before the firmware that forces you to have the CANYON ride mode. Don't really want to update the firmware because of that. Bike is currently out of regular warranty but still under the battery warranty. Any tips besides taking the bike to the dealer?
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I documented this thoroughly in December of 2020. Zero is aware of it. They have done nothing. This is not new. There is nothing you can do until Zero decides to fix it.
https://youtu.be/CjIXCD2-CdU?t=764
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Same here.
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Just refer to it as Magic Charging. That's the term we coined.
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Just refer to it as Magic Charging. That's the term we coined.
Is this bug only on the SR/F and SR/S? The same battery on the plain SR doesn't do it?
And what is the "Canyon Ride Mode" ?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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BTW, shouldn't Zero be FORCED to recall these bikes? Sounds like it could be very dangerous in some situations.
A few new Triumph Trophy SEs (TTSE) were rebooting the ECU while on the freeway. Killed the engine. Only happened to a very few. Never happened to mine. Triumph recalled mine and every TTSE they sold in the world and fixed them all, so this problem could not happen again to anybody. They all get new ECUs and Triumph did NOT make the ECUs.
How can Zero get away without a recall when it is safely related?
What is the BS at the end of the video that says it is not Zero's fault? Who sold the dangerous bike?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Every time that I hear the term "recall" I am reminded about the entire production of 2012 Zero S/DS models that were recalled by Zero, the owners paid for the bikes and I assume that the recalled bikes were crushed and the parts hopefully recycled somehow. This was because three or four bikes caught on fire when being recharged about four years after they left the factory, as I recall ( :-[ ).
So back in the good old days, before Zero became such a big electric motorcycle manufacturer, problem were quickly resolved and recalls were accomplished with dispatch when necessary. Apparently, not so much now? ???
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The latest SR/F firmware overrides your custom ride mode with a mode called CANYON, and I believe you either can't change anything about the ride mode or you can't increase the max speed past 108 mph. This issue wouldn't be a big issue if the SR/F didn't limit the power of the bike as SOC decreases.
I have had "magic charging" since I bought the bike, but it was no where near this bad, and it has not corrected itself in months. Only riding in the city I have 60 mile reported range at full charge, however I can get 120-130 miles riding in the city before it actually depletes all the way.
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The latest SR/F firmware overrides your custom ride mode with a mode called CANYON, and I believe you either can't change anything about the ride mode or you can't increase the max speed past 108 mph. This issue wouldn't be a big issue if the SR/F didn't limit the power of the bike as SOC decreases.
Does this mean you no longer have an adjustable custom mode after the update?
I have had "magic charging" since I bought the bike, but it was no where near this bad, and it has not corrected itself in months. Only riding in the city I have 60 mile reported range at full charge, however I can get 120-130 miles riding in the city before it actually depletes all the way.
If your "magic charging" is getting worse, you could have a bad battery--which is a warranty item.
I say that because my 2017 DS had "magic charging" as well as a very reduced range. Both problems appeared at the same time. It would get some SOC back in just a few minutes. The other things I would notice is MUCH faster charging to full and my SOC would raise more often just from regen when going down a hill.
It acted much like the battery was getting smaller, so faster charging to full as well as less range and this was the only time I have seen magic charging on that bike.
Both problems went away totally after a new battery was installed under warranty.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Ok I made an appointment with my dealer (your favorite dealer Tom, Elk Grove Powersports) and hopefully I get a new battery out of this. Regarding canyon mode, I believe it overrides your custom mode, and you can change everything about it except the top speed (which I believe is stuck at 108mph), and the name of the mode (so it is always CANYON).
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If you go to dealer, the 1st thing they'll do is update your FW.
May as well do it yourself.
I found the latest FW seems to have good Range Estimation.
Immediately, after the FW update, Range Estimates were extremely low.
After I charged to 100% (not 95%) and did some efficient riding (to establish a higher range factor) it worked well after that (for all types of riding).
Now my range estimates are surprisingly high, but the bike seems to meet them.
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I did an OTA update before taking the bike in. It didn't change my custom ride mode like I thought it would. Just got back from the dealer, they did some calibration on the bike, and updated the firmware (now I have canyon as my custom ride mode). The update did not change the dashboard to the new version, not sure if the dealer has to deliberately update that for that to happen. Yet to see if I need to take the bike back in, and ask the dealer to contact zero directly
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Yes, the dash update is separate, and a lot of dealers don't know how to/don't do it without Zero helping and a specific request.
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The latest SR/F firmware overrides your custom ride mode with a mode called CANYON, and I believe you either can't change anything about the ride mode or you can't increase the max speed past 108 mph. This issue wouldn't be a big issue if the SR/F didn't limit the power of the bike as SOC decreases.
Does this mean you no longer have an adjustable custom mode after the update?
No, you can still make your own custom mode. Canyon is just the default custom mode now, when you create your own, Canyon will be replaced with that one.
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Hello from Germany!
Unfortunately I have the same problem with my 2019 SR/F purchased in February.
Battery has only approximately 60% of capacity, with my charger I can get about maximum 7 kWh into it.
Magic charging also happens here. Yesterday put the Zero into the garage with 28 %, after one hour it read 52 % SoC.
Brought it to my dealer 6 weeks ago, they checked with Zero for over a week and decided to replace the battery.
Interestingly, the dealers's 2022 SR/F showroom model does need a new battery as well...
Delivery for the new battery was scheduled for end of May. Phoned my dealer yesterday - he has no clue when it will be delivered.
Pray for me, please, and good luck for everone else.
Jay
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Brought it to my dealer 6 weeks ago, they checked with Zero for over a week and decided to replace the battery.
Same story for me in the fall last year at about 33'000 km: magic charging and unusable range estimations. I brought it to the dealer to download the full log and send it to Zero European headquarters. A couple of days later the diagnostic: the original battery had lost one or more modules and needed be replaced. Now with a new battery and updated firmwares (up to MBB v23 with OTA) it works back as it should. Looks like I will pass the 40'000 km mark this month.
Overall I must say, when comparing with both Energica and Harley Davidson, I am a bit surprised that a company producing exclusively electric motorcycles since 2006 still seems to struggle with their software. I do love their hardware though.
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There is nothing you can do until Zero decides to fix it.
Next time, buy an Energica instead of a Zero. BTW, any idea of the cause of the "magic charging"? I never had that issue on my 2017 SR, but I did when the battery went bad on my 2017 DS.
Is the "Magic charging" an issue with all the newer bikes? Does it happen on all SR/F's or only on some? Could it be a temperature related issue or something like that?
-Don- Reno, NV
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There is no "magic charging" on either my daughter's 2014 S nor on my 2018 S. Neither bike even shows a 1% increase in battery SOC when turned off and then turned back on. So what changed with the SR/F models? ??? Is it the Cybermen's programming? ::)
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You'd think Zero would have some kind of financial incentive to fix the root cause of the issue, due to how many batteries they are replacing for free.
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Ironically I have some insight into this.
The really crazy battery SOC drops, most likely like the OP, have been shown to be hardware defects. Zero gets a full refund from Farasis for these.
There are definitely some software issues with the algorithm itself, and they've certainly indicated that they're trying to fix both problems, but it's not quite as clear cut as ya'll think.
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There is no "magic charging" on either my daughter's 2014 S nor on my 2018 S. Neither bike even shows a 1% increase in battery SOC when turned off and then turned back on.
On my 2017 Zero SR, when new, if I stopped the bike at 95% SOC for 30 minutes of it being keyed totally off, when I got back to the bike it would show 100% SOC when I turned the key back on.
The "problem" (if we can call it that) went away by itself. It could have been right after a FW update, but not sure.
When the bike was new, I would often ride it to the local Denny's in Auburn, starting from a full charge from my house. I would have 95% SOC when I got to the Denny's. After I had my meal and got back to the bike, it would then be 100% SOC. I noticed it a lot back then because I fairly often went to that Denny's for breakfast. It only happened when the SOC was at 95% SOC or above. It would NOT do it the 2nd time down to 95% SOC after the first "magic charge" where I start again at 100% SOC.
But now I can no longer check that exactly like I used to, because the Denny's in Auburn was torn down in 2018. But I have not noticed the issue for years. Now I have to ride all the way to New Castle for a Denny's and that takes a bit more than that 5% SOC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hi, for the past couple months, the estimated range and SOC for my Zero SR/F has been around half of what it should be. Today I took a 35 mile freeway ride, and it took me from 100% to 0%. 20 minutes later I keyed the bike on to check the SOC, and the SOC is now 53%. I have completely drained the battery before and charged it, and seems like the battery capacity is OK based on my killa-watt numbers. I have the previous firmware version, the one before the firmware that forces you to have the CANYON ride mode. Don't really want to update the firmware because of that. Bike is currently out of regular warranty but still under the battery warranty. Any tips besides taking the bike to the dealer?
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Hi there from Germany.
Exactly the same here.
Moreover, the battery doesn't charge to 100 % some times. Yesterday it charged to 100%, stopped but without turning off, then SoC went to 92 % without shutting off or restarting charging.
I claimed that at my dealer mid April. After a weeklong diagnosis and alleged discussion with Zero it was decided I will get a new battery.
The new one should have been here end of May. I will deem myself lucky if it will be here this week (pray for me plesase :) ).
Regards,
Jay
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There is nothing you can do until Zero decides to fix it.
Next time, buy an Energica instead of a Zero. BTW, any idea of the cause of the "magic charging"? I never had that issue on my 2017 SR, but I did when the battery went bad on my 2017 DS.
Is the "Magic charging" an issue with all the newer bikes? Does it happen on all SR/F's or only on some? Could it be a temperature related issue or something like that?
-Don- Reno, NV
In my view it might be a problem of battery chemistry.
From the old acid batteries you maybe know that effect, if it is discharged quickly, causing local depletion of ions in the electrolyte for example.
It needs some time to recover, because chemically (electrolyte concentration) the battery has to rebalance.
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There is nothing you can do until Zero decides to fix it.
Next time, buy an Energica instead of a Zero. BTW, any idea of the cause of the "magic charging"? I never had that issue on my 2017 SR, but I did when the battery went bad on my 2017 DS.
Is the "Magic charging" an issue with all the newer bikes? Does it happen on all SR/F's or only on some? Could it be a temperature related issue or something like that?
-Don- Reno, NV
In my view it might be a problem of battery chemistry.
From the old acid batteries you maybe know that effect, if it is discharged quickly, causing local depletion of ions in the electrolyte for example.
It needs some time to recover, because chemically (electrolyte concentration) the battery has to rebalance.
It could also be that Zero ended up with some bad battery cells from their Chinese supplier and the weak cells are what is causing the charging and SOC problems. When I had my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S with its 24 prismatic Hi Power brand batteries. They were all of varying quality and some would deplete and charge faster than others. That gave the bike's very basic BMS fits.
I might add that over the past couple of years (ever since the pandemic started) I have bought some lousy lead-acid car and motorcycle batteries, that wouldn't hold a charge for more than a few days, without being constantly connected to a battery maintainer. I have gone through two car and two motorcycle batteries before i found a good one that worked the way batteries should. :(
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It could also be that Zero ended up with some bad battery cells from their Chinese supplier and the weak cells are what is causing the charging and SOC problems. When I had my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S with its 24 prismatic Hi Power brand batteries. They were all of varying quality and some would deplete and charge faster than others. That gave the bike's very basic BMS fits.
I might add that over the past couple of years (ever since the pandemic started) I have bought some lousy lead-acid car and motorcycle batteries, that wouldn't hold a charge for more than a few days, without being constantly connected to a battery maintainer. I have gone through two car and two motorcycle batteries before i found a good one that worked the way batteries should. :(
Have you noticed "magic charging" with your Zero? I was thinking this issue is only on the SR/F and SR/S. And if that is the case, it cannot be the battery because AFAIK, the same battery is used in other models.
I don't know if my old issue from 95% to 100% SOC would be considered the same "magic charging" issue or not, as it only did it at 95% SOC or above and a half hour wait to get to 100% SOC. I never considered it to be a real problem.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It could also be that Zero ended up with some bad battery cells from their Chinese supplier and the weak cells are what is causing the charging and SOC problems. When I had my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S with its 24 prismatic Hi Power brand batteries. They were all of varying quality and some would deplete and charge faster than others. That gave the bike's very basic BMS fits.
Then this problem would manifest in the exact same way on 2018+ S, SR, DS, DSR, FX, FXS, and FXE models. It does not. This is firmware.
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Ironically I have some insight into this. [...] Zero gets a full refund from Farasis for these.
Thanks Auriga, I strongly suspected that. I have yet to know a SR/S/F with over 30'000 km which still uses its original battery.
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It could also be that Zero ended up with some bad battery cells from their Chinese supplier and the weak cells are what is causing the charging and SOC problems. When I had my 2010 Electric Motorsport GPR-S with its 24 prismatic Hi Power brand batteries. They were all of varying quality and some would deplete and charge faster than others. That gave the bike's very basic BMS fits.
Then this problem would manifest in the exact same way on 2018+ S, SR, DS, DSR, FX, FXS, and FXE models. It does not. This is firmware.
I'd argue the opposite, if it was firmware, every SR/SRF/SRS would have this in the same way. And they don't.
Lithium Ion Battery Manufacturing is very hard. It could easily be some kind of small processing defect or batch issue that started after the SRF release in 2020+. Maybe the cells or pack modules are produced on different lines or at different factories for different form factors. Neither of us have nearly enough information to make this claim. I'd hope that if it was firmware they'd have found and patched it by now, but who knows with them.
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It could well be firmware, when it's fed with a duff bit of data from an EEPROM that gets it stuck into a broken state.
Cas :)
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I'd argue the opposite, if it was firmware, every SR/SRF/SRS would have this in the same way. And they don't.
And yet the egregious magic charging began with Firmware v17.
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But it still doesn't happen to every Zero with post-v17 firmware. So a combination of duff EEPROM data and firmware still sounds possible. Which is where I'd start looking to diagnose it (this is my job). As surprising as it sounds this sort of thing is not really as hard to diagnose as you might think ... depending on just how shittily the firmware was written in the first place.
Cas :)
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No magic charging on either my old 2014 S, or my current 2018 S, both with Power Tanks. Other than a failure of both bikes' OBC and my bike's DC-DC converter, they have been 100% reliable and have always operated as intended by Zero. I still think it could be a bad batch of cells that Zero's supplier's factory sent them. My recollection is that Zero assembles their own batteries from loose cells, so if there were some bad ones in the mix, things could get weird with the latest-build bikes. ???
BTW, my daughter's 2014 Zero has never had a firmware update since it left the factory in early 2014 and it still runs great. My 2018 S has had every firmware update available and it runs fine, too. :) So go figure. ;)
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But it still doesn't happen to every Zero with post-v17 firmware. So a combination of duff EEPROM data and firmware still sounds possible. Which is where I'd start looking to diagnose it (this is my job). As surprising as it sounds this sort of thing is not really as hard to diagnose as you might think ... depending on just how shittily the firmware was written in the first place.
Cas :)
Yep, could easily be this. Bad eeprom+firmware, some form of delayed onset battery defect, or battery changes at a certain/age + firmware.
The only thing that makes me point towards hardware is Zero saying they're getting a refund from Farasis. If it was really just fw, I imagine Farasis would show the battery is fine, and not give them money for it. And at ~4-6k a pop + shipping/labor, having to replace batteries at their cost would strongly incentivize a FW fix.
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Hi, for the past couple months, the estimated range and SOC for my Zero SR/F has been around half of what it should be. Today I took a 35 mile freeway ride, and it took me from 100% to 0%. 20 minutes later I keyed the bike on to check the SOC, and the SOC is now 53%. I have completely drained the battery before and charged it, and seems like the battery capacity is OK based on my killa-watt numbers. I have the previous firmware version, the one before the firmware that forces you to have the CANYON ride mode. Don't really want to update the firmware because of that. Bike is currently out of regular warranty but still under the battery warranty. Any tips besides taking the bike to the dealer?
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Hi there from Germany.
Exactly the same here.
Moreover, the battery doesn't charge to 100 % some times. Yesterday it charged to 100%, stopped but without turning off, then SoC went to 92 % without shutting off or restarting charging.
I claimed that at my dealer mid April. After a weeklong diagnosis and alleged discussion with Zero it was decided I will get a new battery.
The new one should have been here end of May. I will deem myself lucky if it will be here this week (pray for me plesase :) ).
Regards,
Jay
Apparently no one prayed :'(
The new battery is still not here, though the dealer told me it will be here end of June for sure. Then I was noticed it will arrive end of last week. Of course nothing new since then.
I am so dissapointed now and lost any confidence in Zero as a manufacturer and provider of customer service. What can I expect when another issue comes up?
Even mailed my dealer asking to buy back the bike, no reaction so far. Just saw the other day he even removed the two Zero's he had in stock from all sales platforms! :o
I think he's gone underground and I see myself holding the shitty end of the stick...
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Hi, for the past couple months, the estimated range and SOC for my Zero SR/F has been around half of what it should be. Today I took a 35 mile freeway ride, and it took me from 100% to 0%. 20 minutes later I keyed the bike on to check the SOC, and the SOC is now 53%. I have completely drained the battery before and charged it, and seems like the battery capacity is OK based on my killa-watt numbers. I have the previous firmware version, the one before the firmware that forces you to have the CANYON ride mode. Don't really want to update the firmware because of that. Bike is currently out of regular warranty but still under the battery warranty. Any tips besides taking the bike to the dealer?
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Hi there from Germany.
Exactly the same here.
Moreover, the battery doesn't charge to 100 % some times. Yesterday it charged to 100%, stopped but without turning off, then SoC went to 92 % without shutting off or restarting charging.
I claimed that at my dealer mid April. After a weeklong diagnosis and alleged discussion with Zero it was decided I will get a new battery.
The new one should have been here end of May. I will deem myself lucky if it will be here this week (pray for me plesase :) ).
Regards,
Jay
Apparently no one prayed :'(
The new battery is still not here, though the dealer told me it will be here end of June for sure. Then I was noticed it will arrive end of last week. Of course nothing new since then.
I am so dissapointed now and lost any confidence in Zero as a manufacturer and provider of customer service. What can I expect when another issue comes up?
Even mailed my dealer asking to buy back the bike, no reaction so far. Just saw the other day he even removed the two Zero's he had in stock from all sales platforms! :o
I think he's gone underground and I see myself holding the shitty end of the stick...
So sorry to hear this.
It seems the European Division of Zero is not servicing their customers.
Are there Lemon Laws in Germany?
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Hi,
Yes, in fact the European law is quite customer-friendly.
Under that regulation I asked the dealer to take the Zero back, what he did.
I got my money back minus the loss in value due to my use.
All in all owning that defective Zero SR/f for about half a year cost me a couple of grands. That is the end of my story driving a Zero electric motorbike.
Surely the bike is nice but the manufacturer service is obviously crap.
Bye and have always a safe trip!
Jay
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Hi,
Yes, in fact the European law is quite customer-friendly.
Under that regulation I asked the dealer to take the Zero back, what he did.
I got my money back minus the loss in value due to my use.
All in all owning that defective Zero SR/f for about half a year cost me a couple of grands. That is the end of my story driving a Zero electric motorbike.
Surely the bike is nice but the manufacturer service is obviously crap.
Bye and have always a safe trip!
Jay
Glad to hear you got a buy-back.
Even though it's not the full amount, you lost less money, than owners with working bikes, as the re-sale value on Zero is very bad :(