ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: ZeroJan on March 24, 2022, 05:50:56 PM
-
Hey everyone,
I wasn't able to find a fitting, existing thread so I hope it's ok, that I opened one.
I recently bought a MY21 SR/S Premium with the 12kW charger. It was a demo bike with 2300km on it.
It has been fairly cold since I got it (0-10°C) but the last couple of days it has really warmed up.
My issue: the bike seems really quite slow, mostly concerning off the line acceleration. I've seen multiple videos on Youtube where people do 0-100km/h on SR/Fs well below 3.5s (mostly 3.3s) and they all were in Sport mode. The fastest I could manage yesterday was 4.3s.
Here are some details about the ride:
I did several test runs just now (dry, smooth, grippy road, charged battery to 95%, battery temp in the white center, 16°C outside) in sport and custom (everything up to max, top speed always reverts back to 108mph) mode and wasn't able to get the 0-100km/h below 4,27s. I've seen SR/Fs in video reviews doing it in 3,3s. The ride capture only registers a maximum torque of 176Nm and a maximum power output of 59kW at +120km/h. I had the bike at my local dealer two weeks ago to update everything. Traction control was set to sport (had turned it off another day, didn't feel a difference, didn't measure it either though). I weigh 65kg plus gear (helmet, etc.).
My question: I would love to hear from other SR/S or F owners if they managed to get decent 0-100 times. I also recorded the ride and the max power output only reached 59kW, I accelerated all the way to 130km/h, where max power output should be available (dyno charts).
Thanks in advance.
Jan
Also, how do I implement an image? I hope the attachment works.
-
Why is maximum power showing as 59kWh? Surely it should be 59kW (as you correctly stated). ;) Is that a Tesla app? ???
-
I don't know why they show the power output incorrectly as kWh instead of kW. Should be at 80-82kW though, since I used full throttle in a straight line above 115km/h. It's within the Zero app. I also have the Tesla app on my phone, which is why it's showing up in the status bar.
The SR/F and SR/S should be the same in terms of power and acceleration, right?
-
I don't have my SR/S yet ('won't until next week), but I've been playing around with the iPhone App in preparation. When I look at the default "Sport" ride-mode in the app, it seems to imply that it'll only use 80% of the power, and that you'd need to create a "Custom" ride mode to use all 100%. Could that be the case here?
-
Just checked my app for my 2021 sr/s and "Sport" mode is 75% power. The kWh thing annoyed me too.
-
Almost all test ride videos show the sub 3.5s runs in the regular sport mode. I was in custom mode with everything up to 100% (except for speed at 108mph, due to an app error) when capturing the ride in the app.
No SR/S riders with timed runs here?
-
What are you using to time your run and does it include a 1ft roll out? I only managed to find one review who presumably used some kind of timing equipment (they also have a 1/4 mile time) instead of filming the dash or just repeating the 3.6 second number that gets thrown about with no source and they got 3.7 seconds. No mention of if that includes roll out but assuming it does that would be a real time of more like 4 seconds and a 4.27 0-100km/h doesn't seem unusual.
https://www.cyclevolta.com/story/no-pedals/2020-zero-motorcycles-srf-review/
-
Could Zero's acceleration numbers be the result of their testing on their factory dyno? ??? That would be the easy way to get a good result, rather than hitting the street and using a stopwatch. ;)
-
Could Zero's acceleration numbers be the result of their testing on their factory dyno? ??? That would be the easy way to get a good result, rather than hitting the street and using a stopwatch. ;)
Zero doesn't give acceleration times (anymore, apparently they did in the past) but even if they did they wouldn't do it that way. No other manufacturer does, there'd probably be some sort of false advertising lawsuit, and if there was no chance of that they'd just use the 1.6 second time that other people have got on a dyno.
-
I had a GoPro on my helmet filming the dash.
All the videos I watched timed it that way and got 3.3s in multiple videos. It doesn't matter to me, if it's the perfect timing method. But it is very comparable to the other videos which clearly show a much quicker bike.
Anything above 3.5s isn't acceptable to me, considering the stated performance and price tag. Many others have proven the bike to be more capable than mine.
-
Best thing to do is get it on a dyno and see what's happening.
Cas :)
-
I had a GoPro on my helmet filming the dash.
All the videos I watched timed it that way and got 3.3s in multiple videos. It doesn't matter to me, if it's the perfect timing method. But it is very comparable to the other videos which clearly show a much quicker bike.
Anything above 3.5s isn't acceptable to me, considering the stated performance and price tag. Many others have proven the bike to be more capable than mine.
Filming the dash isn't a very good method at all. It doesn't update anywhere near quick enough to get an accurate time, the speed displayed isn't accurate, and it doesn't even show every number (one review I was reading that timed the bike this way didn't get a single recording that ended at 100km/h, it was always a few km over). All speedos by law have to read a little high which can give a quicker acceleration time.
Using the GPS on your phone and an app would give you a more accurate number, better still get an external GPS device like a Vbox or Dragy.
-
This is totally not helping my issue though.
Other people get low 3 second runs filming the dash. My bike is a full second slower, using the same method. I don't want crazy accurate 0-100km/h times, I want my bike to be a second faster than it is, because other peoples bikes are. The timing method is totally irrelevant.
Helpful input from other SR/S and SR/F owners would be:
-0-120km/h runs with full throttle in sport or max mode + ride capture (what is the max torque and power output?)
-0-100km/h times, rider weight, outside temp
Again, this is not a problem of measuring the runs. I would like to have comparable data from other owners. If everyone achieves 3.7s and lower, then I can be pretty sure that there is an actual fault with my bike.
-
This is totally not helping my issue though.
Other people get low 3 second runs filming the dash. My bike is a full second slower, using the same method. I don't want crazy accurate 0-100km/h times, I want my bike to be a second faster than it is, because other peoples bikes are. The timing method is totally irrelevant.
Helpful input from other SR/S and SR/F owners would be:
-0-120km/h runs with full throttle in sport or max mode + ride capture (what is the max torque and power output?)
-0-100km/h times, rider weight, outside temp
Again, this is not a problem of measuring the runs. I would like to have comparable data from other owners. If everyone achieves 3.7s and lower, then I can be pretty sure that there is an actual fault with my bike.
But not only is it inaccurate it has the potential to be inconsistent. Other riders bikes might update their dash at a faster rate and read a different speed (varying tyre diameter), their camera they're using to record might be off a little, their method of measuring the time might be off, etc.
-
I seem to remember there was a "beast" mode that would open up the full power.
I don't remember how they unlocked it.
-
No, there's no "beast" mode, that was just a custom riding mode with everything set to 100%.
Hans Capelle did actually find a software hack to unleash more power than Zero want to give us presumably because it will blow up after a while. But they DCMA'd him or something over it.
@ZeroJan - just get your bike on a dyno and let's see the chart.
Cas :)
-
This is totally not helping my issue though.
Other people get low 3 second runs filming the dash. My bike is a full second slower, using the same method. I don't want crazy accurate 0-100km/h times, I want my bike to be a second faster than it is, because other peoples bikes are. The timing method is totally irrelevant.
Helpful input from other SR/S and SR/F owners would be:
-0-120km/h runs with full throttle in sport or max mode + ride capture (what is the max torque and power output?)
-0-100km/h times, rider weight, outside temp
Again, this is not a problem of measuring the runs. I would like to have comparable data from other owners. If everyone achieves 3.7s and lower, then I can be pretty sure that there is an actual fault with my bike.
You should definitely use a proper method, to time your 0-60 run.
Unbelievable, you’re trying to use the spedo : /
That said, I felt like my 21 SR/S got slower with FW 20 & 21.
My guess is that the scaling is off (reducing Top Speed & Power & Torque).
On FW 19 my bike felt quick in “Street” now it feels slow in “Sport”.
I stopped using “Custom”, because I don’t trust the values to be accurate (since FW 20).
-
Same for me, on this thread https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11494.60 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11494.60)
-
I'm sure Zero does the same for the SRS/F they did for the lower models of previous years, so I'll add this. The BMS can greatly restrict the amount of current the motor controller is allowed to pull from the battery. I don't know what algorithm it uses. I'm sure they have plenty of "good" reasons for whatever they do -- ambient and battery temperature, state of charge, etc. The point is, I've logged full throttle pulls with the Sevcon's battery discharge current limit turned off. The log still shows the limit the BMS is trying to apply.
The bluish line is the actual battery current. That shaded greyish region that drops rapidly when the blue line spikes is the peak current the BMS is trying to tell the motor controller it can pull. This was at just over 50% charge and about 50F ambient. And the battery in the 2021 SR is basically the same battery used in the later SR,S & F models.
-
From my understanding they dropped stating 0-60 times because they are heavily influenced by the drivers weight. So, that is a factor to consider too.
-
The point is, I've logged full throttle pulls with the Sevcon's battery discharge current limit turned off. The log still shows the limit the BMS is trying to apply.
I had thought the battery limit was based on voltage sag - presumably it then calculates what amount of current draw is acceptable.
In cold conditions, my '14 SR sometimes hits some kind of battery limit under WOT conditions and the controller seems to cut power almost completely.
How easy is it to disable the Sevcon battery limit? I don't care about battery life now and would rather punish as many electrons from it as possible. I assume the Sevcon DVT software and a supervisor level password?
-
The point is, I've logged full throttle pulls with the Sevcon's battery discharge current limit turned off. The log still shows the limit the BMS is trying to apply.
I had thought the battery limit was based on voltage sag - presumably it then calculates what amount of current draw is acceptable.
In cold conditions, my '14 SR sometimes hits some kind of battery limit under WOT conditions and the controller seems to cut power almost completely.
How easy is it to disable the Sevcon battery limit? I don't care about battery life now and would rather punish as many electrons from it as possible. I assume the Sevcon DVT software and a supervisor level password?
I'm sure your correct in that some aspect of the limitation the BMS imparts on the motor controller is based on protecting the weakest cells in the battery. That said, my cell balance has always been under 10mV, and I have seen the BMS pulling current when the voltage sag was still north of 90 volts at full throttle. Unfortunately, I can't see the cell balance whilst at full throttle, but I'll probably add a sniffer for that at some point as well.
In answer to your question, it is a simple matter to turn off the BMS' control of the battery discharge current. You will need the DVT software and IXXAT cable. The login passwords are built into it though; you don't have to worry about it. The following is according to a 2021 bike. I'm sure other years are similar if not nearly identical.
There are several ways to do it depending on what you want to do. By default, 0x2870,1 (battery current limit data source) is already set to 0 (disabled). But to actually disable current limit control, you have to set 0x4623,3 (cutback range) to 0. The controller will then pull every amp it can get its hands on based on the available current, motor map, MOSFET limitation, and your right wrist. If you'd like to maintain some cutbacks, you can set 0x2870,1 to 1 (use max currents only) and adjust the thresholds and cutbacks to your preferences. If you do that latter, you only have to update the max discharge current under 0x2870,2. You'll find another one at 0x4623,2, but with the battery current limit data source set to use max currents, the latter value is overwritten by 0x2870,2. You should also replace the first variable of RPDO1 with a dummy 16-bit value.
It's a similar operation to override the BMS control of regen current. In that case, you replace the second variable of RPDO1 with a dummy 16-bit value.
Keep in mind, the BMS will still protect itself by telling the MBB to shut down the bike and open its contactor if voltages get too far out of wack. If you keep an eye on your cell balances and don't do stupid stuff at the bottom of charge, the likelihood of hurting the battery that wasn't already destined for a short life is probably pretty low. That said, proceed at your own risk.
-
I have tested several applications in order to record the 0-100 km/h or the 0-60 mph of my 2016 FXS.
Many of these applications gave me inconsistent and irreproducible results.
But PerfExpert (https://www.perfexpert-app.com/) did a good job, and I recommend it.
Zero announced 3.8s for the 0-100 km/h of the 2016 FXS.
My best recording was 5.14 s: https://network.perfexpert-app.com/results/iWvWRmUF5z