ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Damon => Topic started by: NEW2elec on January 22, 2022, 08:22:45 PM
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This is a nice full length interview with Dom Kwong showing the bike and summarizing the features and future of the company.
From the Youtube Channel Miss GoElectric:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVe_eF6qORA
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That is a really high-definition video. Unfortunately, no member here went and asked them questions at least that posted on here. The bike they were near, I can't see how those handlebars could move they are essentially clip on type? I got fooled a week or two ago thinking the footpegs don't move looking at the pictures, maybe the display one's dont it is the moving windscreen that dropped off the list of features. Only 2 of the originonal 3 handlebar, footper, and windscreen remain, I guess this is a question.
Looking over the show participants Cake was there, did not notice any other electric motorcycle companies and Cake may not really count for the majority on this site.
Somewhere around the 8 minute mark the talks about owners being a club.
Going to her youtube chanel the little clip at the top explains she has been involved in marketing electric mobility for 10 or so years.
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whoa sick shot of a standard off the shelf Zero motor at 3 minutes in
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First, thanks for your continued interest in the Damon lineup.
Second, now you know that couldn't be an off the shelf motor because Sam would have gotten one off the shelf if he could. You have to go through a dealer to get a new motor.
Third, you better run to Revzilla with this shocking discovery there, Fredo I mean Morgan. ;)
Great looking Italian designed bike though, huh?
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That is a direct drive motor at the 3 minute mark. The Damon uses a gear reduction and motor in the range of 15,000 rpm max maybe 18,000? It does look like a chain drive but Someone with a youtube account should contact Miss GoElectric. I suppose I could be wrong and it is some sort of planetary reduction, but the title of the video is walk around strange that 6 seconds of video with the live in person voice continuing.
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Right. That is a Zero motor. They're pretty recognizable.
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Fran K that is a test mule bike for the Copilot warning detection system.
I think the first one was a Yamaha and then maybe one with an electric drive train.
At the start of the company the Copilot system was going to be the whole company.
Later they just decided to make a whole new bike to work with the system.
The first video on their channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-ER-LDhBQ
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That's really impressive how they were able to fit so many 2170 cells in such a small package to get 20kwh and also all the cooling stuff as well.
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That's really impressive how they were able to fit so many 2170 cells in such a small package to get 20kwh and also all the cooling stuff as well.
Oh yeah super impressive. It's also known as the
Current battery technology
Of the year of our Lord 2022 that we
Naturally
Assume that the
Righteous will be put to the
Test and prove to be
Irreplaceable when investigated and
Stoic when questioned
To the mainstream media.
This is also known as the C.O.N. A.R.T.I.S.T. tactic. It's present in everything we do.
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Plus the fire suppression stuff they are discussing arount that 3 minute mark.
The Stark dirt bike clains 400 2170 cells and 6kwh. I think they claim 65 or so pounds for the pack. I did an internet search and the cells alone came in at 59 plus pounds. They however do show pictures showing pretty much only cells in the pack. I have seen cut away pictures of my KTM pack and it is full of other stuff besides the cells. There is a video if not more than one of taking the Alta battery apart and it has lots of other stuff besides cells in it.
If Stark gets 6kw out of 400 cells it would take Damon (400)*(20)/6 =1333 cells.
What is the weight of the INR 21700 cell?
Weight: 68 gram Cycle Life: 500 cycles ? 80% Datasheet: 20160823-PS-LGC INR21700 M50_Tentative The newest 21700 cell on the market and the most high capacity cells so far in the new format.
1333*68/454=200 pounds for the cells Did I goof somewhere.
In the Stark discussions elsewhere there had been suggested doubt of ability to purchane the best quality cells without massive order sizes.
The video does provide some insight as to what 6 phase means in the Damon context.
I see Morgan made a comment on Youtube. Perhasp just asking why the 6 second of video around the 3 minute mark made in the final presentation while discussing fire suppression.
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Yes around 200lb for the cells alone (in the best case scenario) sounds about right.
Allegedly the entire motorcycle only weighs in at 440lb, so they only have ±220lb left for all the battery casing, cooling, inverter, frame, wheels, electronics, etc etc.
Doesn't really seem plausible.
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Guys, why do you waste your time trying to figure out the battery?
No bike so far has given riders the claimed range in the real world. As a matter of fact no EV has.
Go troll them all with this discovery. While you are at it go do the same for every ICE vehicle on their MPG numbers.
The Damon bikes only really have to be better than the Energicas to sell well. That is the bottom line.
Goes faster than an Ego on the track? Sells better
Has more range? Sells better
Has double the AC charging? Sells better.
Has lots more features and looks much much better? Sells better.
That's it. That's all that matters. By the end of 2022 I think that will be the case.
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I'm not sure why you think no EV has given claimed range in the real world. For example, the Porsche Toucan can easily beat its stated range numbers in real-world driving.
I don't think anyone is wasting time. As a motorcycle/motorsport enthusiast, I'd be interested to hear what kind of tech wizardry they had to figure out in order to get to those impressive spec numbers that nobody else has even been able to touch. Wouldn't you be interested in learning this?
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My recollection is that when the Chevy Bolt was tested by Consumer Reports they said that it exceeded the car's maximum range claimed by GM. Something like a claim of 230 miles, while they were able to travel 250 miles.
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Porsche Toucan
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Toucan_Sam.png)
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I keep forgetting if I don't keep my points very short and focused I'll be blinded by gaslighting.
Hood which Energica do you have?
This is copied from the Energica website for an Ego:
RANGE: 420 km – 261 miles City / 246 km – 153 miles Combined / 198 km – 123 miles Extra Urban
I guess "Extra Urban" is highway? Sounds like an super crowded city but hey, translations.
You getting those numbers? I've not had anyone posting those numbers.
So I guess Energica is just scamming everyone?
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He's got a Ribelle. And plenty of other owners get those numbers. Who would you like to talk to? Daren? Robert? Rick? Sabrina? James? Tony?
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I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.
Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.
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The video is post 1 is supposed to be a walk around of Damon"s second motorcycle model. What do you think it is a prototype, pre production one, or some other description? It is pretty obvious it is not a homologated ready to attach a license plate to. Or is this a such a small number to be made that it does not have to have whatever DOT compliance one would expect. I don't see mirrors or side reflectors.
I would like to hear it on that apparatus they had to run the rear wheel. How much noise or how quiet? Plenty of other stuff to discuss besides the battery. Note the BMW CE 04 video posted on here calls out 8kwh useable. We don't know if the 20kwh for Damon is useable or some other way like 4.0 volts per cell times amp hours.
I am guessing the top speed is down from 200 mph to 170 mph perhaps due to the drag of being a street fighter than a racer look alike. What do you think, will it be stable at 170mph? I sure don't go that fast but it is my understanding the body work needs to go virtually to the rear wheel at the bottom of the bike or instability occurs.
I notice it seems there is a space perhaps 3/4 inch where you can see through the bike between the motor and battery compartment. At least that is what I think the components are.
Miss GOElectric has other videos, I watched the one where she orders and pays for an electric big wheeled bicycle (pedal assist or no pedaling needed the way it sounds) Too bad she did not do a feature on Cake that seems a lot closer to what she has for videos of actually using.
Just for discussion, what is the likelyhood that a start up company can make a motorcycle where the swingarm and shock attach to stressed drive components and actually handle better than a frame that has been out for a while and likely has been adjusted a few times.
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I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.
Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.
For that, one must only look at their press releases where they brag about their unprecedented and industry leading 200 Wh/kg pack density. I actually had a direct discussion with Jay on FaceBook before he left about this because Zero's cells were, at the time, 260 Wh/Kg. I brought this up with him and he said, "no they're not." and insisted he'd done independent testing.
I have engineer friends at Zero I trust who I confirmed the numbers with while not even mentioning why I was asking. They nonchalantly gave me the value of 260 Wh/Kg as it was no big secret. Now this was before Zero's new cells which are 330 Wh/Kg, those new big jump Farasis cells.
Then, in a discussion on RideApart during the Hyperfighter Colossus reveal, I made some comments on RideApart about this and Jay piped up again, doubling down by saying Damon's numbers were for full pack weight, not just raw cells. (https://www.rideapart.com/disqus/?id=1643348887279&cid=article-553257&url=/news/553257/damon-motorcycles-hyperfighter-colossus-limited/&title=Damon%20Motorcycles%20Opens%20Reservations%20For%20New%20HyperFighter%20Colossus#comment-5638671153) to which I responded:
Welp let's take their new 17.3kWh monolith. Having weighed short bricks I know they're ~18.5kg apiece. There are 4 of those, and that's PACK density not cell density. ~74kg. Hell, let's round it up to 75. So 17,300 / 75 = 230.67Wh/kg PACK density. The new packs are even lighter than that but I'm giving you all the benefits and you still fall far short.
Additionally you are using cylindrical cells, by your own admission 21700s. Those have a maximum stack efficiency of 65% if you are able to build an absolutely perfect pack. You've set yourself up for failure from the start.
Never heard a response. I would also be curious to know how he weighed his pack considering it's ... tied to the frame and the motor etc. There's no separate battery box.
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He's got a Ribelle. And plenty of other owners get those numbers. Who would you like to talk to? Daren? Robert? Rick? Sabrina? James? Tony?
Nope I'll just use this guy to make my point about real world aka not ideal conditions.
Go to 4:10 to see his miles for this test. Go to 14:10 to see the 0-60 time on a drag gadget. At 27:56 you see the miles remaining at 42 while at 65% SOC. So about 78 miles total "spirited" riding but not a constant motorway speed.
From the Youtube channel Lamb Chop Rides:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkOUw6Rs1QI
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I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.
Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.
I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done. They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what. But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.
That is one of the big keys for there business model. They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.
Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.
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The video is post 1 is supposed to be a walk around of Damon"s second motorcycle model. What do you think it is a prototype, pre production one, or some other description? It is pretty obvious it is not a homologated ready to attach a license plate to. Or is this a such a small number to be made that it does not have to have whatever DOT compliance one would expect. I don't see mirrors or side reflectors.
I would like to hear it on that apparatus they had to run the rear wheel. How much noise or how quiet? Plenty of other stuff to discuss besides the battery. Note the BMW CE 04 video posted on here calls out 8kwh useable. We don't know if the 20kwh for Damon is useable or some other way like 4.0 volts per cell times amp hours.
I am guessing the top speed is down from 200 mph to 170 mph perhaps due to the drag of being a street fighter than a racer look alike. What do you think, will it be stable at 170mph? I sure don't go that fast but it is my understanding the body work needs to go virtually to the rear wheel at the bottom of the bike or instability occurs.
I notice it seems there is a space perhaps 3/4 inch where you can see through the bike between the motor and battery compartment. At least that is what I think the components are.
Miss GOElectric has other videos, I watched the one where she orders and pays for an electric big wheeled bicycle (pedal assist or no pedaling needed the way it sounds) Too bad she did not do a feature on Cake that seems a lot closer to what she has for videos of actually using.
Just for discussion, what is the likelyhood that a start up company can make a motorcycle where the swing arm and shock attach to stressed drive components and actually handle better than a frame that has been out for a while and likely has been adjusted a few times.
Just for you because I had to dig to find it . There is music in the background but you get an idea.
From the Yotube channel Electric Vehicles Space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scg6x1TVKRM
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I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.
Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.
I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done. They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what. But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.
That is one of the big keys for there business model. They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.
Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.
Most EV manufacturers are very open about how their engineering works. Tesla even has a battery day where they go in depth abo how their pack is engineered, the chemistry etc. GM did same thing with Ultium.
This is the kind of stuff that sells cars, which is why manufacturers do it.
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aahahahhahHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA OH MY GOD
iT'S WiNtEr aNd nO OnE Is sHoWiNg mAxImUm rAnGe iN ThE CoLd cHeCkMaTe aThEiStS
are you for real. Please please please say yes
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You have been clear that you don't think Damon can do what they say and nothing short of the bike on the road doing all those things will change that idea in your head.
When the bikes come out maybe you'll be right. Maybe I'll be right. Maybe they hit on some goals and miss on others.
By the end of this year if: We aren't in WW3. The world economy hasn't collapsed . We don't have super Covid.
Then Damon bikes should be in the market. So we'll have to wait to see who was right.
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What exactly is this?
meme
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Ok I saw the YT video.
Kind of funny.
Thought you took a strange left turn there. Comment removed.
Sorry.
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I'm not actually questioning the range, I'm just curious how Damon managed to fit that many cylindrical cells, cooling, and a plethora of electronics in such a lightweight package.
Even considering they use the motor as the stressed member of the frame, they must have accomplished quite the breakthrough in EV technology and energy density. I'm surprised they aren't really sharing any details about it.
I feel you are at least being half sarcastic since you feel it can't be done. They wouldn't tell the world exactly how they do things no matter what. But let me at least clear up one thing for you.
There is NO frame.
That is one of the big keys for there business model. They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit.
Different seat setup different fork setup different lights and dash and you get a Sport bike, a Streetfighter, and likely an ADV or DS all with the same core.
Also just by removing cells you get a 1000CC 750cc or 600cc equivalent models to sell at lower price points.
You can't be serious.
No such thing as a frame-less bike. Period.
The various parts have to be attached to something, and something has to bear the total weight under various stress, acceleration & deceleration scenarios. That's basic physics (specifically, Newtonian mechanics).
No of course, there are lots of frame variants for motorcycles beyond the traditional passive types; many if not most manufacturers have at various times made the frame multi-purpose: Most modern ICEV bike designs use the engine as a stressed member, so it's part of the frame. Early Triumphs, Buell and IIRC the BMW F650 singles used frame tubes as an oil tank to save weight and space (a.k.a. "oil in frame"). Plenty of designs use the frame as the external bodywork (e.g., the original Vespa scooter.) And so on.
As for "They can make a few different types of bikes off the one core unit", every single motorcycle manufacturer does that. Almost none use any frame design just for a single model -- it's too expensive. Just like the same engine is used on multiple models, or the identical BEV drivetrain on multiple car models.
All Energicas have an identical frame.
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I'd disagree about the notion of there being no such thing as a frameless motorcycle. At the very least the BMW Telelever boxer bikes use the engine as the "frame". There are subframes attached to the front and rear to hang things on but that's all.
Frameless design is pretty much a certainty and I'd say even a necessity for EV motorcycles to ultimately compete with ICE to get the pack large enough and light enough.
Cas :)
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I'd disagree about the notion of there being no such thing as a frameless motorcycle. At the very least the BMW Telelever boxer bikes use the engine as the "frame". There are subframes attached to the front and rear to hang things on but that's all.
Frameless design is pretty much a certainty and I'd say even a necessity for EV motorcycles to ultimately compete with ICE to get the pack large enough and light enough.
Cas :)
That's just it, and I explicitly said so -- that's not frameless. On those boxers, the engine also serves as the central part of the frame, and the front & rear subframes that attach to it are also part of the frame. And of course there are other designs like this. "frameless" does not mean "lacking a separate load-bearing-only frame".
Anything which is required to bear external loads is by definition part of the frame, no matter what other purpose(s) it serves. Which is why there can't be frameless motorcycles, at least not in non-zero gravity :D
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Ok but I think you might win the pedantry award here! I think when we say "frame" in this context we mean a structure that conducts all or part of the load from one wheel to the other that has no other primary function. Many bikes these days use engines as stressed members of their frames but still have a single structure that joins both ends of the load. The boxers do not - there is only an engine between the wheels.
Cas :)
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Wavelet, there is no frame.
Don't try to split hairs with some "technical " definition to save face. There is no outer tubular or Zero style structure that serves to hold the bike together.
By attaching the swingarm and rear seat section directly to the Hyperdrve unit, which contains the battery and most all of the electronic components in one sealed unit. You avoid the extra weight of a FRAME.
Feel free to look over their website and read about the features. After that you ask me any questions you might have.
It's easier than correcting a misstatement.
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Just for you because I had to dig to find it . There is music in the background but you get an idea.
From the Yotube channel Electric Vehicles Space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scg6x1TVKRM
I was playing this video and watching from second 6 to approx second 30 the frames per second and the rotational speed of the sprocket and the spokes of the rim go opposite ways at times. Perhaps there is a one way clutch in the hub?
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I was playing this video and watching from second 6 to approx second 30 the frames per second and the rotational speed of the sprocket and the spokes of the rim go opposite ways at times. Perhaps there is a one way clutch in the hub?
that's just an optical illusion caused by the frame rate of the camera. Similar to the pulsing headlights in that time.
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When the wheel speeds up the sprocket and the wheel do the same thing. When he lets off the sprocket appears to go one way while the rim goes the other way. Or appear stationary for an instant while the other is moving.
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Fran K it's just what Staples said. You would need a high speed camera to see it spinning the way you would watching it in person.