ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on December 05, 2021, 04:48:14 AM
-
Revzilla has published a short article that discusses Zero's (and other brands) latest Tesla-like upgrades that the owner needs to pay for in order to unlock features that are already installed in their 2022 models. BMW and KTM are also mentioned as going down this path. They say there are pros and cons to this idea. Here is a link to the article: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/pay-to-unlock-features-tesla-style-gain-traction-in-motorcycling
-
Looks like 87 views at this time and no one seems to want to discuss this. At least there are plenty of comments at the link you provided.
Since you put it in the Zero section.....I seem to recall the type of other ventures the backers of Zero motorcycles are supposedly involved in and the Prior businesses their #1 guy has been with I kind of have to wonder. Why they could go more voltage get more torque out of the motor and run closer to normal sized front and back sprockets or belt wheels.
I am wondering how the sales tax works on this. The approx $200 to make the heated hand grips function seemed to be the most annoying to the commenters. Are the States that have sales tax, like 45 out of 50 going to get bypassed as opposed to if the bike came with them on the invoice.
-
Looks like 87 views at this time and no one seems to want to discuss this. At least there are plenty of comments at the link you provided.
Since you put it in the Zero section.....I seem to recall the type of other ventures the backers of Zero motorcycles are supposedly involved in and the Prior businesses their #1 guy has been with I kind of have to wonder. Why they could go more voltage get more torque out of the motor and run closer to normal sized front and back sprockets or belt wheels.
I am wondering how the sales tax works on this. The approx $200 to make the heated hand grips function seemed to be the most annoying to the commenters. Are the States that have sales tax, like 45 out of 50 going to get bypassed as opposed to if the bike came with them on the invoice.
Your question regarding sales tax is an interesting one. I just looked up my service records and found the receipt for my dealer installing the "enabling code" for BMW's "Ride Mode Pro", I definitely got hit with state sales tax for that almost $400 (with tax) firmware download, which was performed by the dealer. I wouldn't be surprised if you are also charged for Cyber+ downloads when you purchase them. ???
I will also add that I found that comment in the RevZilla article about the new Zero's apparently being built with heated grips that needed a Cyber+ firmware purchase to activate. That must be a new one in the motorcycle industry. I wonder how long it will take BMW to jump on that bandwagon. ::)
-
Sales tax would surely be added as all things get it now. The more interesting question is what applies to the EV tax credit?
I think the new rule is the bike can't be over $25k to get the credit so it can slide through that loop hole. You need to be paying enough tax for the credit to apply but will it be able to carry over for multiple years? Will the battery and charging upgrades count in future years if you buy them then?
The all top number one reason people say they won't get an electric vehicle is price. Next is range and next is charge time.
This compounds #1 with extra costs for #2 and #3. I'm sure that gets them running to the dealer.
Lastly lets look at what is really going on here. The cost of the base bike has to cover the real cost of the total bike's options, otherwise they risk the possibility of people saying to hell with it and not paying for any upgrades and Zero losing a lot of money.
Thus these paywalls have to be icing on the cake or they do risk making a huge mistake.
-
These extras are a huge deal to Zero as the product margin can be multiplied.
I can see charging extra, but not so much, to push the battery range or charging speed, as more stress on the components will likely result in increased warranty returns which are a real expense.
But heated grips and reverse drive seem too much like gouging the customer because there is not enough competition. I'm already underwhelmed by the last 5 years of "progress", anxious to upgrade but not finding any of the models compelling. They cost more, don't fit, don't go far enough, and now there is less hope of getting more for the money.
-
Had a good think about it and I think I've reached the same conclusion as everyone else - here's why it stinks:
If Zero can manufacture the bike with all the hardware in it but all disabled for $x, and still make their profit, then I would rather they made that same bike without any of that hardware, and charge even less for it. Or are they selling the base bikes at a loss, and only making the profit on the fully specced models? That's the only remote possibility and it's plainly nuts from a business perspective, so it can't be the case.
As for the pure software upgrades... that is also daft. The software has already been developed. It costs literally nothing to deploy, and gives people less reasons to not want to buy one. It's just... boggling.
Cas :)
-
These extras are a huge deal to Zero as the product margin can be multiplied.
I can see charging extra, but not so much, to push the battery range or charging speed, as more stress on the components will likely result in increased warranty returns which are a real expense.
But heated grips and reverse drive seem too much like gouging the customer because there is not enough competition. I'm already underwhelmed by the last 5 years of "progress", anxious to upgrade but not finding any of the models compelling. They cost more, don't fit, don't go far enough, and now there is less hope of getting more for the money.
I understand the charge for on dash nav and reverse mode for older bikes, as they require a trip to the dealer. But I agree they should come stock for 22MY bikes.
Had a good think about it and I think I've reached the same conclusion as everyone else - here's why it stinks:
If Zero can manufacture the bike with all the hardware in it but all disabled for $x, and still make their profit, then I would rather they made that same bike without any of that hardware, and charge even less for it. Or are they selling the base bikes at a loss, and only making the profit on the fully specced models? That's the only remote possibility and it's plainly nuts from a business perspective, so it can't be the case.
As for the pure software upgrades... that is also daft. The software has already been developed. It costs literally nothing to deploy, and gives people less reasons to not want to buy one. It's just... boggling.
Cas :)
The question for me is not whether they make a profit on the base bike, I'd assume they do. I want to know whether they make enough profit to keep investors happy and subsidize growth without the upgrades. I.E Is the price for the FST SR lower because they expect people to purchase upgrades?
-
I'm already underwhelmed by the last 5 years of "progress", anxious to upgrade but not finding any of the models compelling. They cost more, don't fit, don't go far enough, and now there is less hope of getting more for the money.
That's how I felt before I bought one ! But I did it anyway :(
-
That's how I felt before I bought one ! But I did it anyway :(
Don't get me wrong, I've loved my FX every day since 2016.
It's a game changer. How can one not love it?
It's just that years of waiting have not borne out meaningful changes, and this contentious new strategy detracts from what improvements actually came.
-
Well, they have borne out meaningful changes... just not really from Zero. Right now the Energicas have edged them, and the new $20k LiveWire One might now be the best in the pack. Maybe this is one of those "even version numbered" years and they're just sort of playing the fiddle until the next big leap forward but the pricing stuff is a bit of a shocker.
Cas :)
-
I don't get why people get angry over featuers that can be enabled in software. If it's cheaper for the manufacturer to have only one hardware build and differentiate by enabling features (whether with software or installing jumper links, etc.) then it's a win for everyone. All you should really care about is the price you pay and the features you get. How it was done isn't really your concern.
There is of course the also potential for the interesting grey area of hacking a feature on your purchased hardware. Anyone who's into electronics probably knows about the Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope. It's famous because a feature-enabling hack is well known and even seems to be tolerated by Rigol. If you're a company you'll likely pay for the features. If you're a hobbyist you'll buy the cheaper model and hack it. They must have sold loads becuase of this. Best marketing feature ever.
There is a thing that NewZeroland raised when he did a piece on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS5Df4UBMsM&t=25s
One of the paid upgrades is larger battery capacity. Does this mean that you're lugging around a heavy chunk of metal you've not yet paid to use? Heated grips are one thing but a large piece of unused battery that's increasing weight and reducing your range is another. On the flip side you could consider that you pay to have higher charge and discharge limits for the battery and hence reduce its potential lifetime. Are you effectively paying for warranty on a less battery friendly charging profile?
-
Or: consider buying a new MacBook Pro* with 16GB of RAM fitted into it. But you only paid for the 8GB RAM version so they disable it in software. How would that make everyone feel?
Cas :)
* of course you deserve it for buying Apple but that's another story
-
If you feel the price you paid for the 8GB version is fair (obviously not if it's Apple ;)) then what's the problem? It shouldn't be your concern how it's made. If you never knew there was an extra disabled 8GB in there you'd be happy.
Sometimes having one product assembly line means that costs can be saved this way and everyone wins. It can be more expensive to make a new 8GB version than produce one more 16GB device and disable some memory.
-
Thinking about this for a few weeks now, I think what really grinds my gears is the lack of innovative features, and the main path of innovation seems to be paywall software. There's no DC fast charging, no liquid cooling, but there is reverse and navigation now!
I can get behind a pay to upgrade strategy. I like the idea of buying cheaper and then upgrading as you see the need. But I guess I'm just disgruntled that there hasn't been much innovation in the mechanics of the bike,
-
The thing is I can totally get behind the idea of charging for software-only updates for older models. Like I'll totally pay to have reverse and in-dash nav on my 2020. But the flipside is I would expect those features to be standard on a 2022 model. And I simply refuse to pay to activate hardware that already exists on the any model. I'll buy a 2022 for thousands less when I find out someone's hacked it and reprogram the thing myself.
Cas :)
-
Looks like 87 views at this time and no one seems to want to discuss this. At least there are plenty of comments at the link you provided.
Since you put it in the Zero section.....I seem to recall the type of other ventures the backers of Zero motorcycles are supposedly involved in and the Prior businesses their #1 guy has been with I kind of have to wonder. Why they could go more voltage get more torque out of the motor and run closer to normal sized front and back sprockets or belt wheels.
*snip*
Can you expand on these other ventures and prior businesses? I'm not familiar.
-
Looks like 87 views at this time and no one seems to want to discuss this. At least there are plenty of comments at the link you provided.
Since you put it in the Zero section.....I seem to recall the type of other ventures the backers of Zero motorcycles are supposedly involved in and the Prior businesses their #1 guy has been with I kind of have to wonder. Why they could go more voltage get more torque out of the motor and run closer to normal sized front and back sprockets or belt wheels.
*snip*
Can you expand on these other ventures and prior businesses? I'm not familiar.
I guess but I left it kind of vague so I would not make any mis statements. I believe they also fund some sort of food business perhaps on the healthy food end of things and the #1 guy as I call him as to not have to look us the exact letters associated comes from or at least has been with a candy company. This is probably only sort of on target I did not bookmark the articles I read or search it out before typing.
Coming from a Husqvarna off road point of view they got a Hall of fame off road guy Scott Harken or something close to that. When he went to Zero the slogan was Huskies are for heroes and the joke sort of was from hero to Zero. You might see how I am a bit bewildered at why they don't promote from within.
-
Don't get me wrong, I've loved my FX every day since 2016.
It's a game changer. How can one not love it?
It's just that years of waiting have not borne out meaningful changes, and this contentious new strategy detracts from what improvements actually came.
I only had the chance to roll 350 Awesome miles on mine before having to put it up for Winter, but disappointed that the luggage rack that I was led to believe was available at the time of purchase, is not available ! Not really a big deal because I wouldn't be able to use it for 4 months anyway, but I wanted to spend some time on the treadmill during the Winter with my new accessories, practicing for when it warms up ! ;D
-
I would pay to have them remove the CANYON glitch top speed limitation on my SR/S.
I'd like to see them work on restoring features we previously had when we bought the bikes, like a 127mph top speed, before they work on adding new ones.
Can they just put my bike back like it was? That would be great. Yeah.
-
My biggest concern is the weight from extra battery and charging capability which I can't use.
I have to carry all these extra weight with the bike all the time.