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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: mdjak1 on September 21, 2021, 01:30:44 AM
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My 2017 FXS 6.5 modular has an issue where often when the bike is above 50-60% SOC, the bike will start to charge - similar to the OP video in this recent thread;
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11160.msg104388#msg104388
https://imgur.com/gallery/p0WYaNk
And if you leave the bike plugged in long enough the green flashing light goes away and is replaced with a red flashing light.
Usually when below 50% SOC, the bike will charge completely.
But I have gotten lucky recently where I tried to charge from 80% SOC and it did charge fully.
At times after a failure to charge, I will take the bike out for a ride, come back and it will charge OK.
I pulled the attached logs from the bike after it refused/failed to charge. Any help with those would be appreciated.
I have purchased but not yet installed a new OBC. I didn't want to install the OBC yet in case it wasn't the fault of the OBC and if the issue remained intermittent.
Anyone have any ideas on why I am having this intermittent issue? Are there other components that I should be looking at that might cause this issue that I as an owner can replace? The dealer I used to get a BMS replaced on the bike wasn't particularly good/timely with the repair. I would rather try to sort this myself before taking it to a dealer (probably a different, further away dealer).
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Gotta be careful reading and interpreting those logs. The MBB logs show internal BMS faults, but that isn't the problem.
From your BMS logs, which contains these messages:
07207 04/06/1970 23:24:52 ERROR: State Machine Charge Fault. Mode:2, I:83mA, dV/dt:-1mV/
I can tell you you need a new charger, a very common issue. They essentially mean that the BMS is expecting to see charge current are getting zero or almost zero.
If you're somewhat handy, you can order and replace the charger yourself. Or you can ditch it and only charge with an off bike one as some people do
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So as I mentioned I do have a new OBC. And on advice I installed it. Unfortunately, there is no change. Still will not charge. There is one other possibly odd behavior that the bike exhibits when plugged it, key in OFF position.
If you stand the bike up (kickstand still in place), and roll the bike back and forth, you can hear the motor/encoder just like if the key were in the ON position. Additionally, the LCD display flashes the digits. I have uploaded my own video of this here:
https://imgur.com/a/qAywgCE
You can't hear the motor/encoder but it is clearly heard when you are standing there next to the bike. Now I have no idea whether this is normal as this is my only Zero but I suspect it isn't normal. Perhaps someone else who has a Zero that charges normally on the OBC can try this and let me know.
So any other ideas besides the OBC?
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The motor will provide just enough charge to trigger the pedestrian warble, if that's what you're talking about?
My washing machine does that, too ^-^
-Crissa
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The motor will provide just enough charge to trigger the pedestrian warble, if that's what you're talking about?
My washing machine does that, too ^-^
-Crissa
If you plug in your S while the key is off so it is charging, then stand the bike upright and move it back and forth, do you rear the whine/grinding noise (pedestrian warble noise??) that is normal when you turn the key on and move the bike around? Does your LCD display flash and count digits like is shown in my IMGUR link?
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So as I mentioned I do have a new OBC. And on advice I installed it. Unfortunately, there is no change. Still will not charge. There is one other possibly odd behavior that the bike exhibits when plugged it, key in OFF position.
If you stand the bike up (kickstand still in place), and roll the bike back and forth, you can hear the motor/encoder just like if the key were in the ON position. Additionally, the LCD display flashes the digits. I have uploaded my own video of this here:
https://imgur.com/a/qAywgCE
You can't hear the motor/encoder but it is clearly heard when you are standing there next to the bike. Now I have no idea whether this is normal as this is my only Zero but I suspect it isn't normal. Perhaps someone else who has a Zero that charges normally on the OBC can try this and let me know.
So any other ideas besides the OBC?
Did you check the FX's 10A charge fuse? If it doesn't charge at all with the new charger, its possible that fuse got blown or that fuse holder has gone bad.
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Did you check the FX's 10A charge fuse? If it doesn't charge at all with the new charger, its possible that fuse got blown or that fuse holder has gone bad.
Is this the one you mean: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/XMX_Platform/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charging_Circuit_Fuse
It is a 100 amp fuse.
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No, there is a 10A fuse on FX/FXS/FXE bikes in line with the onboard charger. You can see it in your official owner's manual as #4 on page 6.34 for a MY17FXS. https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/zero-cms-disco/c55944fa-499e-48e2-83f0-c8dd36657607_OM-XMX-MY17.pdf
I've had both that fuse and that fuse holder need to get replaced, and prevent charging with the onboard for different customers. Always surprises people, as no other Zero bike has a charge fuse inline with the onboard
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I haven't tried moving my bike while plugged in. But that's what my washing machine does.
-Crissa
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I haven't tried moving my bike while plugged in. But that's what my washing machine does.
-Crissa
So you are telling me your replies here are totally useless. Thanks.
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My experience is when moving the bike while charging it does make the same noise as when moving it keyed on, so I think it is normal.
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So you are telling me your replies here are totally useless. Thanks.
No, just that I don't think the warble is related. You should be in QA. Who thinks to move a bike that's keyed off and plugged in?
-Crissa
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My experience is when moving the bike while charging it does make the same noise as when moving it keyed on, so I think it is normal.
Thank you for your reply. You didn't happen to notice if the display also momentarily shuts off and then displays an odd digit count like in my video here: https://imgur.com/a/qAywgCE
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I think yes, if I remember correctly
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Thanks. Good to know that isn't abnormal behavior. I guess I will start chasing intermittent electrical connections around fuses and the likes. I think I will also switch the battery positions while I have them out.
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No, there is a 10A fuse on FX/FXS/FXE bikes in line with the onboard charger. You can see it in your official owner's manual as #4 on page 6.34 for a MY17FXS. https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/zero-cms-disco/c55944fa-499e-48e2-83f0-c8dd36657607_OM-XMX-MY17.pdf
I've had both that fuse and that fuse holder need to get replaced, and prevent charging with the onboard for different customers. Always surprises people, as no other Zero bike has a charge fuse inline with the onboard
40 years of working on motorcycles I can't recall ever seeing such a bad fuse holder design in such a bad location. It is so low on the bike that you have to wonder how it would do on an FX ridden offroad through a stream?
It took a shot of compressed air to even get it to pop open with the locking pin in the correct position. The fuse itself seems to test OK in a continuity test. The holder contacts are not really corroded at all. What holder have you used as a replacement?
PHOTO OF FUSE HOLDER IN LOCATION:
https://imgur.com/a/yHUZc2N
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A Zero through a stream? ...these bikes should not even be washed with running water.
Try accessing the fuses under the seat, inaccessible as well...at least for my fingers.
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Mine gets rained on regularly.
I'm pretty sure running water isn't a problem.
Instead of lubing chains, we should be lubing our contacts.
-Crissa
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No, there is a 10A fuse on FX/FXS/FXE bikes in line with the onboard charger. You can see it in your official owner's manual as #4 on page 6.34 for a MY17FXS. https://prismic-io.s3.amazonaws.com/zero-cms-disco/c55944fa-499e-48e2-83f0-c8dd36657607_OM-XMX-MY17.pdf
I've had both that fuse and that fuse holder need to get replaced, and prevent charging with the onboard for different customers. Always surprises people, as no other Zero bike has a charge fuse inline with the onboard
40 years of working on motorcycles I can't recall ever seeing such a bad fuse holder design in such a bad location. It is so low on the bike that you have to wonder how it would do on an FX ridden offroad through a stream?
It took a shot of compressed air to even get it to pop open with the locking pin in the correct position. The fuse itself seems to test OK in a continuity test. The holder contacts are not really corroded at all. What holder have you used as a replacement?
PHOTO OF FUSE HOLDER IN LOCATION:
https://imgur.com/a/yHUZc2N
I'm a Zero dealer, so I usually just end up replacing with the same part. You could probably use any inline fuse holder part off Digikey you felt comfortable splicing in, or maybe even remove it entirely. As I said, most Zero bikes don't have that fuse.
I'm running out of things to check. So when you plug in the charge cord, does the green charge light on the dash come on and show a time to charge? If so, the charger is getting activated and the MBB sees it.
If you measure voltage on the quick charge port, with the bike keyed on(contactor closed), do you get pack voltage(DC Voltage)? Then the 100A charge fuse is good. Side note, the contactor closes when you key on and don't charge right?
If you measure voltage on that port and plug in the charger, does the voltage increase on the quick charge port? It should when the charger is connected, and would indicate the bike is seeing the charger output.
Based on the logs and your reports, it sounds like the charger output is not getting from the charger to the BMSes. Most of the time, that's(in order of probability) a bad charger, bad charge fuse, bad charge fuse holder, or very rarely a wiring problem.
It also wouldn't hurt to get your logs again with a recent charge attempt included with timestamp and both mbb/bms logs.
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I fixed it. Thank you Auriga for all your help.
What I did was take a clean 38 caliber brass bore brush and clean the inside of the fuse holder on the female side and a 22 caliber bore brush for the male side. I also lightly filed the little metal tab on the male side that makes contact with the metal tab on the inside of the female side. I blew some compressed air in both parts to clean out any residue. Then made sure the fuse contacts were also clean. I re-assembled it and plugged it in. And the damn thing worked!!
So I put the old charger back on the bike and all the panels back on. It is now charging. Hopefully it will continue to charge. I guess if I had some dielectric grease on hand I would have lightly greased the fuse contacts but I didn't.
Also, I hope that if anyone else ends up having a similar issue we have left enough search terms for them to find this thread. The problem has vexed me for several months now. Makes me feel good about my Zero again.
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Did you check the FX's 10A charge fuse? If it doesn't charge at all with the new charger, its possible that fuse got blown or that fuse holder has gone bad.
Wow, super useful advice for all us FX owners. *claps*
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So intermittent charging returned. I decided it was time to replace the entire fuse holder with a waterproof fuse holder and relocate it to a place that was more readily accessible and less likely to get wet.
You will recall that this is what the fuse holder looks like in the bike, on the right side behind the rubber cover.
https://imgur.com/KlDUMxq
This is what it looks like on the bench once cut out:
https://imgur.com/LGpQrOE
So I cut the wires and soldered them to the wires of the new Bussman fuse holder I bought at Auto Zone.
https://imgur.com/j2sDQPw
Then I tucked the fuse holder up beside the battery
https://imgur.com/RMCvhIQ
When the battery is removed (remember this is a modular so I can remove the front battery) I have access to the fuse holder
https://imgur.com/IseFI7c
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The replacement fuse unfortunately is not the same voltage rating of the original & you should replace it with one with the same 125v rating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_(automotive)
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Such clear and useful photos unfortunately with a repair mistake that can lead to fire. Yikes. :o 12Vdc ? (not equal to) 125Vdc
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The replacement fuse unfortunately is not the same voltage rating of the original & you should replace it with one with the same 125v rating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuse_(automotive)
I can replace it with an Eaton Bussmann - BK/HFA-R holder and use the original fuse. They even carry these at my local West Marine under a different brand name.
https://www.newark.com/eaton-bussmann-series/bk-hfa-r/fuse-holder-in-line-waterproof/dp/65K4436
It is just disappointing that Zero used a Schurter panel mount fuse holder that has an IP40 rating and then mounted it a very low point on the motorcycle.
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Such clear and useful photos unfortunately with a repair mistake that can lead to fire. Yikes. :o 12Vdc ? (not equal to) 125Vdc
Technically the holder and fuse is rated for 32 VDC, not 12 VDC. But I doubt it would cause a fire. More likely the fuse itself would just blow all the time (which it didn't when I charged from 50% to 100% after the installation).
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Such clear and useful photos unfortunately with a repair mistake that can lead to fire. Yikes. :o 12Vdc ? (not equal to) 125Vdc
Technically the holder and fuse is rated for 32 VDC, not 12 VDC. But I doubt it would cause a fire. More likely the fuse itself would just blow all the time (which it didn't when I charged from 50% to 100% after the installation).
I’m confused as to whether this is on an AC or DC line but the reason for the voltage rating is to insure the gap of the blown fuse is enough to stop an arch from forming.
DC produces nasty arch’s.
Watch video here https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/ac-vs-dc-arc.123745/
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Replaced the ATC blade style holder with a tubular style holder and reused the original fuse. The new fuse holder is waterproof and rated for 250 V AC and DC. I even labeled the fuse holder for the next owner.
https://imgur.com/B7rRJVU
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Nice, the other was probably fine but it's nice to get a properly rated/waterproof fuse holder for the future.
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Replaced the ATC blade style holder with a tubular style holder and reused the original fuse. The new fuse holder is waterproof and rated for 250 V AC and DC. I even labeled the fuse holder for the next owner.
My turn this week. I'm so grateful for thread and to Auriga for originally suggesting the issue! Thank you guys.
When I plugged in, the green battery light blinked a few times then stopped. It's cycled codes 45 (Sidestand), 47 (MBB Charger Connected Disable), and (sometimes briefly) 15 (Charger Attached But Not Charging).
I tried a whole lot of things I don't need to describe now, but the thing that fixed it was adjusting the little contact prong on the fuse holder lid. I filed it slightly and bent it out a little more. I don't know how they expect that tiny metal wiper to pass 6 amps.
Question for you: considering it's an alteration on the very expensive harness, how does one cleanly replace that fuse holder? Will the wires disconnect, or do they have to be cut? And if cut, do you crimp/solder/shrink wrap it?
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Question for you: considering it's an alteration on the very expensive harness, how does one cleanly replace that fuse holder? Will the wires disconnect, or do they have to be cut? And if cut, do you crimp/solder/shrink wrap it?
I don't recall exactly but I probably spliced the new fuse holder in soldering the wires together and shrink wrapping them. I see the link I posted for the new fuse holder shows a price of $43 now. Shop around. It is available for 1/4th the price elsewhere.
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Thanks. I ended up ordering a BK/HFA-R holder with crimp-type connectors from Mouser ($43). Digi-Key had it for $21, but their web site was so dysfunctional I couldn't even get it into the shopping cart.
Next time the bike acts up, I'll take it apart again, cut the harness and install the new holder with a crimp tool, and maybe with solder if I can do it without messing up the end cap insulation.
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I think , have same problem , will change fuse holder and fuse and confirm , thanks for the post!!!
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I'll note that my bike did start failing to charge again, so I replaced the fuse holder and the problem is gone.
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Having what sounds like the same issues as you guys posted here. Auriga mentioned the possibility of just removing the fuse entirely. Has anyone tried this? If this fuse isn’t necessary, I’d rather eliminate a potential failure point….
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I find it hard to believe they'd put in a fuse just for the heck of it. Removing it is probably a bad idea unless you have the circuit protected at the same level a bit further back.
So whats going bad with the holder? The spring getting weak and it's not making connection or something. While it isn't a perfect fix, a little wad of tin foil in there to take up some space when compressed to make the fit tight again might help until you get the new parts in. At least you still have some protection this way.
Aaron
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Yeah, the wiser side of me is saying the same thing. But honestly I’m confused because if the fuse is not making contact, the bike will not even key on. So is the problem that it is just getting very intermittent contact? My aux charger showed 99.1v keyed on, so the 100A fuse must be good, the 10A charge fuse is not broken, and when i remove that fuse the bike won’t even key on, so i know it’s gotta be making contact in the fuse holder. I’m really wondering if my charger went bad on me. Think I’ll order one and try it.
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my main concern is, you said you had burnt wiring. That is bad, if it happened at a connector that shit worked itself back to BOTH sides of that connector. Wires may be damaged, and even though the insulation may look good, they could have gotten soft crumbly, broken under the insulation and you don't see it now you have an amp trap / hot spot producing fire starter :(
You have to ask yourself WHY that overheated at the connector? If one side went bad, what happened to the other side that it was allowed to get loose? It's kind of like a marriage, rarely is the 'problem' just one side, and just fixing one side is only going to make it blow harder when it goes again, which it eventually will.
Fix it when the problem is a 20 dollar fix, before it burns back to the point where it is now a 1200 dollar fix.
Aaron
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I don’t remember ever saying i had burnt wiring? Wiring all looks good. I just tried a different onboard charger unit and it did the same thing, green light blinks 6-8 times, check engine light comes on, and nothing charges. I’m gonna mess with the 10A fuse some more and see what happens. Problem is, i also swapped out the controller for the larger size 6 one and the motor for the larger 75-7 one. Anyone know if the controller settings can mess with charging? I tried to set most applicable settings to the same settings as my stock controller.. I’m probably getting pretty far out in the weeds with people’s knowledge of the sevcon on that.
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The fuse holders being rated at AC or DC should not be a big issue, for the lower voltages, but the fuses ARE a big issue.
A DC arc is a lot harder to quench, especially under a heavy load, than an AC arc, and if the fuse is incapable of quenching it because it's the wrong type of fuse or insufficiently rated, then the arc may continue to burn turning everything into a plasma slop eventually.
The reason AC .vs DC makes a big difference is because with DC, the equipment is constantly under the strain, or pressure if you want to look at it that way of the electrical potential, with AC, it shuts off twice a cycle, so the time under stress is less on it and it can handle it better. When things get damp, DC LOVES to creep, and seep and track and eventually burn thru in places. AC, not as bad. So dielectric strength is very important.
Aaron
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Fixed it, it was just the 10A fuse holder as well. Cleaned it out as above. Dang, easy fix! Hopefully it stays fixed!
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I think it has been mentioned before but, at work when we had issues with fuse holders getting corroded, we'd use gun barrel brushes to clean them out with. Stick in the proper size, it works on the small buss fuses too, even if it's just a contact pad at the bottom, that brass / bronze brush can scrub / twirl crud and corrosion off them so they work better.
Another alternative is to take a scribe and stick it down there and scratch the crud off / scratch the surface until you see shiny emerge, but this is a slow tedious way to do it. The gun barrel brushes work a lot better. When you do this, it's very helpful to blow some air down in there or something to get the crunchies out. contact cleaner can work as well but can also eat the plastic if it is not the proper type so be careful about using voc's around the plastics. Wear safety glasses, those bristles and the air can flick / fling shit all over the place and the last place you want it is in your eye.
Aaron