ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on September 13, 2021, 08:16:02 PM
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This apparently automatic aerodynamic design feature shown 30 seconds into this Moto Guzzi teaser clip of their new V1000 Mandello model looks interesting. Pretty fancy teaser video, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vgM1pjO0gQ
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Very, very nice looking machine.... Many have said that Guzzi should build something like the Le Mans again.... Wish them the very best....
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There is nothing REMOTELY aerodynamic about that design and and anyone who thinks there is should never commentate on motorcycle design ever again.
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Just about the only normal bike ever made that anyone bought that had actual aerodynamics was the ZZR1100. The other being the K1 which is now a collector's curio.
The thing about aero on bikes is it sort of solves a problem that nobody really has... the speed limit for most people most of the time in most of the world is about 70mph, below which aero isn't making a whole lot of difference. So you can see why manufacturers don't take it particularly seriously for the large majority of their model lineup. Even their litre sports bikes have terrible aero because they can just make them more powerful and the tyres don't need to get over 186mph anyway...
Cas :)
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There is nothing REMOTELY aerodynamic about that design and and anyone who thinks there is should never commentate on motorcycle design ever again.
You missed the word active. Which is likely why Poster #1 put a clip about a gasoline motorcycle in an electric forum. Think about all the effort discussing Damon and moving windscreen, that seems not to be going into the production models that already have significant market share reading Moto journalists on the internet. I read Yamaha has mirror surrounds indicating nearby objects similar to Damon's windscreen edge. Though neither will be on any 2021 models.
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There is nothing REMOTELY aerodynamic about that design and and anyone who thinks there is should never commentate on motorcycle design ever again.
You missed the word active. Which is likely why Poster #1 put a clip about a gasoline motorcycle in an electric forum. Think about all the effort discussing Damon and moving windscreen, that seems not to be going into the production models that already have significant market share reading Moto journalists on the internet. I read Yamaha has mirror surrounds indicating nearby objects similar to Damon's windscreen edge. Though neither will be on any 2021 models.
That was why I posted the video. It had more to do with the concept of having a mainstream motorcycle manufacturer coming up with a mass produced design that makes an attempt at automatically altering the shape of the vehicle (if only slightly) at certain speeds to affect the aerodynamics of the motorcycle - or more likely, altering the wind blast that hits the rider. And yes, I was thinking of Damon's attempts at doing the same thing and how it was really odd that an old company like Moto Guzzi would beat them to the punch with a feature like that.
BMW must be grinding their teeth that MG came up with the idea and put it into production first.
Even if the in-motion alterations are only to improve rider comfort, once out there in the market, and if it well received by their customers, other manufacturers will likely pick up the idea and come up with moving fairing panels that will change a K100RS into a K1. :o
Another relatively slippery motorcycle model is the Suzuki Halibusa. (Sorry about the spelling. :-[ )
One other comment: From what I hear H-D is sold out of their new ADV Pan America model that automatically lowers the suspension when the rider comes to a stop. So it does appear the the public is ready for Transformer motorcycles - even if they are called a Damon. ;)
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Based on the positioning of the ducts I suspect the design is to manage airflow at highway speeds. Could smooth the airflow over a riders arms and shoulders, reducing buffeting? Would love to see wind tunnel results to see how much of a change the different positions provide.
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I agree with Demoni in that it just seems to effect a little upper air flow for comfort, maybe a little more down force but no type of "range " improvement.
Now, as for Damon, the Shift function is based on the idea that you start with a sleek street aero (not speed record aero) tucked rider hyper bike and then you can hit the Shift lever and go more upright for slower city riding in more comfort.
So the adjustments are for comfort not areo speed as that is the bikes natural form.
Here is Michael Uhlarik to talk about Damon areo. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZpkADX2T8
And here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbqDxAj0rLI
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Boy those are embarrassingly bad videos.
"This aesthetic is driven by need and is still cool" -the designer who is making a generic looking FIM-based restrictions sportbike.
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The thing about aero on bikes is it sort of solves a problem that nobody really has... the speed limit for most people most of the time in most of the world is about 70mph, below which aero isn't making a whole lot of difference.
At 70mph, I can feel the wind pushing agsainst me, and that's with a full fairing. Even below 70mph aero makes a difference.
That wind blast is wasted energy that I'd love to avoid.
However, in the case of the Guzzi the (high) handlebar position is going to negate any potiential gain the active aero may give. It's merely a nice marketing distraction, but who knows where it may go in the future.
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Boy those are embarrassingly bad videos.
Boy, that's an embarrassingly bad comment.
-Crissa
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With news that the Rivian RT1 and the Lucid Air Dream are ready to go to customers and that the Lucid is the longest range production electric car at 520 miles and 930HP, Morgan is 0-2 in EV skepticism. 8)
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I've personally seen and posted pictures of both Rivians and Lucids in the wild. What on earth are you talking about?
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Quote from you Nov 20 2020
"I remain skeptical because I've seen so much chicanery in this industry. I'm not saying they did, for example, but they could easily have provided a Lucid car to Motor Trend that a special larger capacity battery pack. At no point did the Motor Trend article show a charging station with data on how many kWh were put back in the car.
Call me pessimistic but, frankly, there's too much BS going on, and I don't trust journalists."
My response was:
"As for Lucid, of course I used them as a closer to production automotive example of the type of advancements I expect from the EV world.
As for slipping in a higher battery capacity for reviews, I'm sorry man that makes no sense at all. If Lucid was using a, whatever, 250kWh battery pack to get that range why not advertise it as such?
A bigger battery number would actually impress an EV novice more and likely sell better than explaining drag coefficient and Ohm's law.
That's really all I want to talk about Lucid, I wish them well and competition makes things better in the long run."
It took too long to find this one I'd rather not look for the Rivian doubt, but it's out there.
As for the Damon videos, I'd think you'd be happiest of all to know there is a bike company that will do real wind tunnel tests.
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Thank you so I remain 2-0
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Thank you so I remain 2-0
So in one, you said they didn't show a charging session, hence they didn't have it (but they did) and in the other you said they needed say, a 250 kWh battery... But they needed half that.
That seems like you were wrong both times.
-Crissa
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The thing about aero on bikes is it sort of solves a problem that nobody really has... the speed limit for most people most of the time in most of the world is about 70mph, below which aero isn't making a whole lot of difference.
At 70mph, I can feel the wind pushing agsainst me, and that's with a full fairing. Even below 70mph aero makes a difference.
That wind blast is wasted energy that I'd love to avoid.
The wind pushes against something no matter what you do (I solved this particular problem with an MRA sport screen and spoiler - now I barely feel it). The important thing with aero is what happens right after it hits the thing that is in the way. Nothing any of these designs does helps that air go past the thing smoothly and efficiently. As I say... about the only design in the last 30 years that has had any serious nod to aero was the ZZR1100, which managed just shy of 180mph on just 138bhp. Kawasaki have a history of designing for this sort of thing as they build ships and the like where a 0.1% reduction in drag equals savings of thousands in fuel costs.
Cas :)
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Thank you so I remain 2-0
So in one, you said they didn't show a charging session, hence they didn't have it (but they did) and in the other you said they needed say, a 250 kWh battery... But they needed half that.
That seems like you were wrong both times.
-Crissa
LOL
No he never claimed they had a 250kWh pack. I'll give him that.
It all started with Damon's range claims of course. They said they had the same battery pack size as the Energica + bikes, 21kWhs, but could go farther.
I compared the range of a Tesla 100 kWh pack which is like 410 miles to the Lucid Air Dream with a 113 kWh pack but has a now confirmed EPA range of 520 miles. The CEO of Lucid listed several factors that allowed them to achieve this. He called it smart range.
Getting more range by means other than just bigger and bigger batteries.
Motor Trend did a Beverly Hills to SF trip so 470 miles for sure with the range estimator showing like 60 miles left.
That's when Morgan went off the tracks a little and claimed maybe they had a rigged larger battery (over the 113kWh claim) car for the media test.
I pointed out there is no reason to say you have a smaller pack than you really do. I threw out the 250kWh number to show if they needed a much bigger battery to go 520 miles just say it. No shame, no problem. The win is in going the farthest without charging and as of right now they have that title for their class.
Because Rivian has/had been delayed he was also calling BS that they would ever come to market. I told him to tell Amazon to cancel their 100,000 truck order because it was a fake company but I don't know that he ever did.
Now for those who have not kept up with our ongoing Damon debate (you are probably better off for it) I view the exchanges between myself and Morgan as good natured jabs at different opinions. I hope he feels the same.
Edit:
Here is a video From the YT channel E for Electric confirming both the Lucid and Rivian news. Saves me some time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TOhZ2UwSPU
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Richard230 sure got the Alta thing right when they had a price drop.
What is the difference between a thread hijack and a thread derail?
What about the flying thing with the camera that was used to make the picture portion of the video. I seem to remember those things called drones though they are sort of remote control are at the forefront of battery new best stuff usage.
Got any bikes to ride without a full face helmet and squishy objects stuffed in the ears?
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Every other day the media will hype the next "Tesla killer". Yes, yes, the previous 50 reports they showcased didn't end up being anything... but THIS ONE. Now this one is something special!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po4adxJxqZk
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Nope nope nope, this has nothing to do with killing Tesla or not. Lucid might make 100 cars and close up shop, that part doesn't matter.
This was always about one company finding ways to get more range per kWh of battery.
They got over 110 more miles from just 13 more kWh of battery than a Tesla P100D.
That shows it is at least possible for Damon to get better range than Energica with the same battery size.
You do get points for having good taste in TV shows though.
And even though you lost your left hand to that seal you're going to be all right.
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Nope nope nope, this has nothing to do with killing Tesla or not. Lucid might make 100 cars and close up shop, that part doesn't matter.
This was always about one company finding ways to get more range per kWh of battery.
They got over 110 more miles from just 13 more kWh of battery than a Tesla P100D.
That shows it is at least possible for Damon to get better range than Energica with the same battery size.
To me that was never the question. It's patently obvious that there are lots of ways to improve range without touching the battery. My problem with the Damon bikes is they make all the claims when *they have no bike*. They don't have anything. And they trash talk the other manufacturers. I have problems with that behavior.
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Ok well for me it's always been about the most range. If the bike had no differences to a Zero SR but could go 200 miles highway mixed riding that would be enough for me to want it.
I have no, none, zip, nadda, charging stations where I want to ride so it's all range for me.
All the extra perks and features are just gravy.
Anyway I'll PM you with a few other questions.
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" It's patently obvious that there are lots of ways to improve range without touching the battery". Sooooooo true
I have been saying this as long as I have been interested in motorcycles. And that's a long time.
Fact : Motorcycles basically have the aero on a spikey brick. Anything that cleans up the flow around the complete motorcycle AND rider will assist top speed and range.
Why do manufacturers insist on producing emotorcycles that go out of their way to create a parachute, on something that needs to have as little drag as possible if it is to get any range.
If you choose a "retro" or "cafe racer" expect compromised aero efficiency, and as a result, decreased range and reduced top speed compared to a properly faired bike. Surely the advent of emotorcycles and a Tabula Rasa moment to rethink the motorcycles design should be enough to get us thinking efficiency, rather than back to the late 60's early 70's.
Mvetter you have an ally. ( Especially if you are who I think you are.)
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Cafe racers have reduced frontal section.
Not saying much, but it's better than most upright bikes.
-Crissa
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The major hurdle for motorcycle designers improving a bikes coefficient of drag (Cd) is a high Reynolds number (Re). A high Re is a result of the turbulence a motorcycle creates when it punches a hole in the air. By comparison cars are slippery and keep the air they are pushing through smooth and attached (laminar flow). Because cars are longer than motorcycles they have more time to create clean airflow over and around.
This is a perfect example of a a motorcycle modified for improved Cd and Re. The front fairing provides a smoother shape for the air, in addition the rear box allows air going around the rider a smoother transition away from the bike creating less turbulence.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/96426993_3344166418935658_8214179065892962304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=6ohDmkPy4qEAX8eSGFJ&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=786a0647d930f52db196384ae73130f1&oe=6177A33C)
For reference the streamlined EVA above is running a 13.4 kWh battery pack and obtains similar range at 65mph to a stock EVA 21.5kWh bike. That's a substantial improvement of 60% to the overall range of the bike. There are drawbacks to this level of streamlining however including: very little airflow (cooling) to the battery, motor, radiator and rider plus a higher cross sectional area, that can cause issues in side winds.
Most motorcycle customers would not accept the design changes needed to improve Cd to the above level. I strongly feel there is a middle ground that could net 10-20% better efficiency especially when it comes to EV bikes that require less airflow for cooling vs ICE motos.
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Indeed, once again I mention the ZZR1100, which back in the 90s managed 180mph from just 138bhp at the rear wheel, and an easy 60mpg (UK) if you actually stuck to speed limits. It wasn't an outlandish shape (in fact still one of the best looking bikes of the 90s methinks).
The other, probably more reasonable alternative, is to accept that the days of high speed motorcycling are past us now, and the reality of more rigorously enforced speed limits, social unacceptability of speeding, pointless engineering wankery to get power nobody needs at the expense of efficiency and indeed expense, etc, all point us in the direction of just Going About The Place More Slowly These Days. Riding under 70mph, aero doesn't have huge benefits but comes with all the same weight, cost, plastic, expense, tears after minor car-park tumbles, etc. Market watching says so too: everyone's buying naked bikes now (because of course, adventure bikes went off on a massive wank and became ludicrously overpriced, overweight, overcomplex, and overpowered). Rinse, repeat.
Cas :)
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The major hurdle for motorcycle designers improving a bikes coefficient of drag (Cd) is a high Reynolds number (Re). A high Re is a result of the turbulence a motorcycle creates when it punches a hole in the air. By comparison cars are slippery and keep the air they are pushing through smooth and attached (laminar flow). Because cars are longer than motorcycles they have more time to create clean airflow over and around.
This is a perfect example of a a motorcycle modified for improved Cd and Re. The front fairing provides a smoother shape for the air, in addition the rear box allows air going around the rider a smoother transition away from the bike creating less turbulence.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/96426993_3344166418935658_8214179065892962304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=6ohDmkPy4qEAX8eSGFJ&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=786a0647d930f52db196384ae73130f1&oe=6177A33C)
For reference the streamlined EVA above is running a 13.4 kWh battery pack and obtains similar range at 65mph to a stock EVA 21.5kWh bike. That's a substantial improvement of 60% to the overall range of the bike. There are drawbacks to this level of streamlining however including: very little airflow (cooling) to the battery, motor, radiator and rider plus a higher cross sectional area, that can cause issues in side winds.
Most motorcycle customers would not accept the design changes needed to improve Cd to the above level. I strongly feel there is a middle ground that could net 10-20% better efficiency especially when it comes to EV bikes that require less airflow for cooling vs ICE motos.
Looks like a 1950's "dust bin" to me. ;)
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That's the bike from Morgan's Disney Land to Reno run. Morgan thought he would make it first but didn't turn out that way.
Cas, British cites may have control over everyone's lives around them but I promise the whole world isn't that way.
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Similar situation in mainland Europe now too... cameras and radars everywhere :( But I still seem to be having the same amount of fun as I did 20 years ago so maybe speed wasn't all it was cracked up to be...
Cas :)
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That's the bike from Morgan's Disney Land to Reno run. Morgan thought he would make it first but didn't turn out that way.
The biggest factor on that is that Alan, the streamlined owner, still isn't confident in electric bikes and navigating to charge stations.
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Indeed, once again I mention the ZZR1100, which back in the 90s managed 180mph from just 138bhp at the rear wheel, and an easy 60mpg (UK) if you actually stuck to speed limits. It wasn't an outlandish shape (in fact still one of the best looking bikes of the 90s methinks).
I can get that now:
- BMW K1300S
- not an outlandish shape
- 180MPH? (nah, not me, but supposedly it can)
- 175BHP (so maybe 150BHP at back wheel)
- sticking to the speed limits due to current UK fuel issues (still plenty of overtakes, just nice and smooth)
- I'm 6'4" so pretty high drag
However, a dustbin fairing would still make a big difference.
(http://www.poqit.com/mpg-60.1.jpg)