ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rypher on September 08, 2021, 11:38:31 PM
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I took my Zero FX into the SF zero dealership after experiencing some sudden and jerky acceleration while riding. It seems like I was getting a fraction of the power then it would all kick in at once. It still rode but almost threw me from the bike a couple times when the massive torque kicked in. Three weeks after taking it to an authorized Zero dealer, they say Zero HQ says it needs a new motor and most likely a controller too.
That will be $2100 for the motor, but probably $3600 for the pair. Mechanic said if the motor is bad you almost certainly need a new controller. The bike has ~1500 miles and a couple months past the drivetrain warranty expiration.
Has anyone experienced this or have any ideas of what do next beside shell out $3600?
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Not much else to do, I'm afraid. I wouldn't say it's certain you'll need the new controller, but there is no way to test it without a new motor first.
Unfortunately there are no cheaper motor or controller replacements. It could be the controller and not the motor, but again there's no real way to know without the full logs and sometimes even with.
There are some simple motor diagnostics one could try with the right tools, measuring electrical resistance between poles, whether you feel resistance to the motor spinning with the bike off, etc. Those could tell you the motor is definitely done, but are not a guarantee.
It could be the motor position sensor. The logs would help with that, but Zero doesn't support replacing just that sensor for that motor. Some people have done it, but they've DIYed it. One benefit to the SRF/SRS is that that part can be easily swapped.
I have had some luck getting Zero to give a discount for repairs like this for people just outside warranty. You or your dealer could certainly call Zero HQ's Dealer Support and ask nicely. Sometimes I've gotten labor free or some percentage off for unlucky people like yourself.
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I took my Zero FX into the SF zero dealership after experiencing some sudden and jerky acceleration while riding. It seems like I was getting a fraction of the power then it would all kick in at once. It still rode but almost threw me from the bike a couple times when the massive torque kicked in. Three weeks after taking it to an authorized Zero dealer, they say Zero HQ says it needs a new motor and most likely a controller too.
That will be $2100 for the motor, but probably $3600 for the pair. Mechanic said if the motor is bad you almost certainly need a new controller. The bike has ~1500 miles and a couple months past the drivetrain warranty expiration.
Has anyone experienced this or have any ideas of what do next beside shell out $3600?
That sounds close to what happened to Shadow (moderator) here in this forum with his 2016 Zero DS. He said the bike tried to kill him. I got the tow truck for him and that leads to another story when his bike was in service here in Reno. His motor as replaced, but there were other issuers that led to the place no longer being allowed to be a Zero dealer.
Perhaps he will chime in here and tell the complete story.
-Don- REno, NV
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If only Zero spare parts didn't get nabbed up so fast on the secondary market!
-Crissa
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If only Zero spare parts didn't get nabbed up so fast on the secondary market!
-Crissa
In the later models, I don't think the home mechanic can change a motor without a Zero dealer being involved as it will require commissioning.
But perhaps your 2014 won't have that issue.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ok, thanks for the replies. I gave the dealer the go-ahead to replace the motor. I suppose this is just more frustrating because unlike another engine, I cant take it anywhere for a second opinion.
And I love the bike too much to not fix it, haha.
I live in SF and have had a good experiences with SF Moto (dealer) in the past. I trust them on this but it sort of feels like Zero HQ was like "something is wrong, we don't know, replace everything".
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Ok, thanks for the replies. I gave the dealer the go-ahead to replace the motor. I suppose this is just more frustrating because unlike another engine, I cant take it anywhere for a second opinion.
And I love the bike too much to not fix it, haha.
I live in SF and have had a good experiences with SF Moto (dealer) in the past. I trust them on this but it sort of feels like Zero HQ was like "something is wrong, we don't know, replace everything".
I don't think Zero is the only vehicle manufacturer that has a similar philosophy toward fixing some problems. :(
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I cant take it anywhere for a second opinion
Well, there is, but I'd call first - Hollywood Electrics in LA, IMO the best Zero dealer ever by far. (323) 654-8271, Harlan or Carl. In 2019 I was planning on a motor/battery upgrade and wanted to check with them first, I was very glad I did. Even if you stay with your current dealer they may still be able to help, but if it was my bike & I lived in SF it would already be up there. :)
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Yep, it seems when in doubt replace it all is the MO for service these days. I had a drive problem with my Kuberg Ranger, seemed like a motor so I was given a new motor under warranty and no go, so they wanted to replace, motor, controller and throttle - all drive parts. At least it was under warranty. But with one dealer in the U.S. about 600 mi. from me I did the labor, that it was super easy. Turned out to be just the controller.
$3600 is a big bite, just think what a new ICE motor and ECU would cost!
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Perhaps he will chime in here and tell the complete story.
Can confirm. I did eventually get eliminated from EV moto by another person driving a pickup truck though, so overall, I'd say other people driving are more surely worse for your chances of survival as a motorcyclist than a malfunctioning EV powertrain.
Sucks about the motor / controller expense. It could be something as simple as a target magnet coming loose opposing a hall sensor... about 30 cents of magnet and 31 hours of some gearhead trying to do surgery on a permanent magnet motor? replace the whole thing just makes a kind of sense then.
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It'd be nice if Zero did some sort of refurb/exchange program.
Cas :)
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Didn't Zero have a recall for the earlier legacy models due to the possibility of magnets coming loose in the motor? I recall my 2014 bike being tested for such a possibility about 5 years ago.
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Perhaps he will chime in here and tell the complete story.
Can confirm. I did eventually get eliminated from EV moto by another person driving a pickup truck though, so overall, I'd say other people driving are more surely worse for your chances of survival as a motorcyclist than a malfunctioning EV powertrain.
Sucks about the motor / controller expense. It could be something as simple as a target magnet coming loose opposing a hall sensor... about 30 cents of magnet and 31 hours of some gearhead trying to do surgery on a permanent magnet motor? replace the whole thing just makes a kind of sense then.
Yeah, this is pretty much the reasoning I got from Zero. We(Motorcycle dealers) don't want to do teardowns of motors. Other than replacing the position sensor, which they did make easy on the FST motors, and maybe bearings replacing anything else is both hard, expensive, and requires specialized training/tools.
It'd probably take me around 4-6 hours to replace motor bearings and then test and commission the bike. At that point, the economics gets questionable at 100-200/hr. Replacing epoxied in magnets or shorted magnet wire coils? Forget about it.
Functionally simple is not the same thing as easy to repair. I wonder if anyone else in the EV industry is repairing motors. I thought I saw some posts about specialized outfits doing that. If so, I wonder what they cost.
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It is often difficult to measure how much it cost to let an mechanic work for an hour. Especially when it is specialized work.
On the other hand; maybe zero could help an costumer by selling the motor directly to a him. Than he or she can swap / align the motor my themselves. Without warranty of course.
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It is often difficult to measure how much it cost to let an mechanic work for an hour. Especially when it is specialized work.
On the other hand; maybe zero could help an costumer by selling the motor directly to a him. Than he or she can swap / align the motor my themselves. Without warranty of course.
They used to do that some years ago, but no longer. Probably following the advice of their product liability lawyers or the requirements of their product liability insurance company.
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If only Zero spare parts didn't get nabbed up so fast on the secondary market!
-Crissa
In the later models, I don't think the home mechanic can change a motor without a Zero dealer being involved as it will require commissioning.
But perhaps your 2014 won't have that issue.
-Don- Reno, NV
I second both these notions and will add: as part of researching issues and options for our motorcycles, I called a dealership and they provided a quote of $115 to commission a 2019 FX provided that I was willing to leave the motorcycle there for a couple of days. That's reasonable. I wonder, is that a service all zeromotorcycle dealerships provide. If not, they should.
Is an erratic throttle a symptom of a malfunctioning encoder? Should be less expensive than a motor and controller. I have not needed to replace an encoder (yet) but I have seen the device in the bottom of the motor when I replaced the motor bearing. Seems simple enough, certainly easier than rebuilding the top end on a four stroke thumper.
I love electric!!
Ride On, Red Clay
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The one and only time I had my Zero "commissioned" it was at the 600-mile servicing. It only took one hour while I waited. I paid $200, but the technician, in addition to performing the commissioning, spent a lot of time checking every part of the bike to make sure everything was just right.
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The one and only time I had my Zero "commissioned" it was at the 600-mile servicing. It only took one hour while I waited. I paid $200, but the technician, in addition to performing the commissioning, spent a lot of time checking every part of the bike to make sure everything was just right.
Do you know how far it was out, if at all?
Neither of my Zeros have never been commissioned since sold new to me and they have around 12K miles each on them.
BTW, tried to get them both commissioned, one in Reno and the other in Oak Grove. The mistake I made was also asking for the first FW update at the same time (the first FW update requires a dealer). In each case, the service Manager never passed on to the workers about getting the commissioning done because the Service Manager obviously didn't even know what it meant. At both places. So I only got the FW update.
So my advice is if bring your bike in for commissioning, make sure you ask for nothing else to be done, as most service managers don't even know what it means so they do not pass it on to those who do.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The one and only time I had my Zero "commissioned" it was at the 600-mile servicing. It only took one hour while I waited. I paid $200, but the technician, in addition to performing the commissioning, spent a lot of time checking every part of the bike to make sure everything was just right.
Do you know how far it was out, if at all?
Neither of my Zeros have never been commissioned since sold new to me and they have around 12K miles each on them.
BTW, tried to get them both commissioned, one in Reno and the other in Oak Grove. The mistake I made was also asking for the first FW update at the same time (the first FW update requires a dealer). In each case, the service Manager never passed on to the workers about getting the commissioning done because the Service Manager obviously didn't even know what it meant. At both places. So I only got the FW update.
So my advice is if bring your bike in for commissioning, make sure you ask for nothing else to be done, as most service managers don't even know what it means so they do not pass it on to those who do.
-Don- Reno, NV
There was no indication that my 2018 Zero needed to be "commissioned" at 600 miles and I have no idea if it was actually done as motorcycle shops around here don't let you inside the service area while they are working on your bike. "Our insurance company says the public may not enter the shop." So I don't know for sure if the commissioning was performed, but I have no reason the believe that it wasn't done as the staff at SF Moto seem quite competent. I have never had a bad experience at the dealership that would make me concerned that they don't know what they are doing. Two members of the sales staff and at least one of their technicians used to work at the Zero dealership in Daly City (now closed) where I bought my 2012 Zero almost 10 years ago. They have always been strong supporters of the Zero brand and I trust them to do what is required to keep the bikes running properly.
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There was no indication that my 2018 Zero needed to be "commissioned" at 600 miles and I have no idea if it was actually done
Did they charge you for it? If so, I would then assume they really did it.
If it's a flat price to have the 600 mile service done, I will then assume they did NOT do it. I know for a fact that dealers do NOT do everything that is recommended for them to do. They only do what they believe is really necessary. At least that is the way it used to be and I doubt if it has changed.
I hear for the shop to do the commissioning, they have to do it with the Zero factory on line with a computer screen. It has to be scheduled with them. No doubt they do it if there is a motor replacement or something like that, but I have my doubts if they bother with it otherwise, unless there is an obvious issue.
I am only guessing on above, as I don't know for a fact.
-Don- Reno, NV
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There was no indication that my 2018 Zero needed to be "commissioned" at 600 miles and I have no idea if it was actually done
Did they charge you for it? If so, I would then assume they really did it.
If it's a flat price to have the 600 mile service done, I will then assume they did NOT do it. I know for a fact that dealers do NOT do everything that is recommended for them to do. They only do what they believe is really necessary. At least that is the way it used to be and I doubt if it has changed.
I hear for the shop to do the commissioning, they have to do it with the Zero factory on line with a computer screen. It has to be scheduled with them. No doubt they do it if there is a motor replacement or something like that, but I have my doubts if they bother with it otherwise, unless there is an obvious issue.
I am only guessing on above, as I don't know for a fact.
-Don- Reno, NV
Attached is a copy of the SF Moto work order for the 600-mile check up of my 2018 Zero S. The "commissioning" (encoder adjustment) is noted near the top of page 2.