ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: tracy216 on September 02, 2021, 03:40:03 AM
-
Yesterday I turned the bike on and the display came on for a second then turned off. Turned the ignition off then on and the display blinked on then off. After that it never came on again. Plugged in the charging cable and the fan turned on but not the display. Called the local dealer and they said they could trailer it tomorrow (which is today).
The bike has never been wet and the battery was around 50% after my last ride. I bought it new and put 1,100 miles on it. I'll post an update once I hear from the dealer.
-
Sounds like it might be as simple as your 12v battery giving out. If so, you should be fixed up very soon.
-
Yesterday I turned the bike on and the display came on for a second then turned off. Turned the ignition off then on and the display blinked on then off. After that it never came on again. Plugged in the charging cable and the fan turned on but not the display. Called the local dealer and they said they could trailer it tomorrow (which is today).
I and others had similar problems, I linked it with charging but it could be unrelated. You might want to read that: https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11082.0 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11082.0)
In my case my bike was trailed to the dealer for nothing. It seemed that letting it rest for a few days was good enough.
-
I talked to the service department this morning and was told it's the 12 volt battery. A new one has to be shipped from CA and will take 10 to 12 days. I'm hoping they'll know why the 12v died.
-
...why do they need to ship a 12v battery from California? It's not... special.
-Crissa
-
...why do they need to ship a 12v battery from California? It's not... special.
-Crissa
Technically the 12V battery is off the shelf, although not that common.
But only Zero has the 12V + the non removable heater PCB attached to the outside. The battery heater is needed if the temperature drops below freezing.
-
Why aren't they separate pieces? That just seems silly.
-Crissa
-
Why aren't they separate pieces? That just seems silly.
-Crissa
My guess is they are integrated in some fashion & thus one.
-
Seems like a little two-sided tape and an heating pad would do the same thing x-x
-Crissa
-
Seems like a little two-sided tape and an heating pad would do the same thing x-x
-Crissa
Don’t preach to the Choir.
[Tho ordinary dbl stick tape might tend to be an insulator rather then a conductor of heat].
-
Seems like a little two-sided tape and an heating pad would do the same thing x-x
-Crissa
Don’t preach to the Choir.
[Tho ordinary dbl stick tape might tend to be an insulator rather then a conductor of heat].
Probably because its cheaper to buy and has less parts, and availability of non zero replacement parts aren't a priority.
It's a silicon flex pcb heater with adhesive backing.
I think if you wanted an easily swapped replacement it'd have to have a screw clamp mechanism and a metal heat spreader
-
I still hate the idea of a little 12v lithium battery sitting on top of a 14KWH lithium battery. I cant imagine the parasitic draw of the off current on the 14KWH battery would be a big deal with an efficient converter. I know the DC to DC converters have been failure prone in the past, but that technology is not rocket science. Just seems like a silly design decision to me.
I know zero is not alone and many EV's have a 12V accessory battery so clearly I am missing something.
Steve
-
The importance of that 12 volt battery and no way to see the state of charge concerns me and I have been thinking hard wiring in a simple little LED voltmeter with a "Push to Test" switch so it would normally not have any kind of a draw. This way one could check the battery before and after a ride to see if it was going bad?
Wonder if that mod would kill the warranty since the owners manual says not to connect anything to that 12 volt battery?
-
I know zero is not alone and many EV's have a 12V accessory battery so clearly I am missing something.
Steve
The only thing I can think of is that a 12V accessory battery is better in providing high current compared to a DC/DC converter.
When using the 12V system over a few minutes; I hope the 12V charger is able to provide all the current that is needed for the 12V system.
If this would not be the case the 12V battery would need to be charged even when the bike is not driving (possible tho)(would also be better for the 12V battery I asume).
Not sure why and how they desgined the system around the 12 accesory battery.
-
Do you guys know if the 2013 DS also has this 12v battery? I find this a little worrying that the bike may have a smaller battery that can cause issues.
-
The Gen2 bikes don't have a 12v battery in any year yet.
The 12v battery can supply an arbitrary current, which is why they use it. DC-DC boards are inefficient at that.
-Crissa
-
24 days later I finally got my bike back. So annoying. Now I don't trust the 12 V battery. I'm going to learn how to monitor its charge level.
-
If you have a 12v accessory port port and a volt meter it would give you a quick indication.
-
if you download the zerong app, and enter the same credentials as for the official zero app, you can see the 12V battery voltage.
https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/zerong/id1488172044#?platform=iphone (https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/zerong/id1488172044#?platform=iphone)
or use the info in the following thread and get some json data in the browser
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9520.0 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9520.0)
it will look something like below, the 12V battery voltage is found under "main_voitage" and in the example below it is 13.08 volt
[
{"unitnumber":"123456",
"name":"538ZFAZ76LCK00000",
"unittype":"5",
"unitmodel":"6",
"mileage":"4382.46",
"software_version":"190430",
"logic_state":"2"
,"reason":"2",
"response":"0",
"driver":"0",
"longitude":"4.5000",
"latitude":"51.5000",
"altitude":"0",
"gps_valid":"0",
"gps_connected":"1",
"satellites":"0",
"velocity":"1",
"heading":"344",
"emergency":"0",
"shock":"",
"ignition":"0",
"door":"0",
"hood":"0",
"volume":"0",
"water_temp":"",
"oil_pressure":"0",
"main_voltage":13.08,
"analog1":"0.09",
"siren":"0",
"lock":"0",
"int_lights":"0",
"datetime_utc":"20191030162309",
"datetime_actual":"20191102113548"
,"address":"YourCity, YourStreet",
"perimeter":"",
"color":2,
"soc":91,
"tipover":0,
"charging":1,
"chargecomplete":0,
"pluggedin":1,
"chargingtimeleft":0}
]
-
I believe there is a automotive style DTC connector in the tank box. You can buy a connector (Amazon, E-bay) that will plug into that DTC port and will provide full time 12 volt output. You could put a small digital meter on the leads to monitor the battery. Just remember, this is full time power and anything connected to it will drain the 12 volt Li-Ion battery when the bike isn't in the run position.
-
Four months after getting a new 12V battery replaced under warranty, the new battery is already dead. So back to the dealer it goes. Does anyone know the name or part number of the DC-to-DC converter on a 2020 SR/F? I want to make sure the dealer replaces it this time.
-
Four months after getting a new 12V battery replaced under warranty, the new battery is already dead. So back to the dealer it goes. Does anyone know the name or part number of the DC-to-DC converter on a 2020 SR/F? I want to make sure the dealer replaces it this time.
I think this is the part you are asking about:
https://www.af1racing.com/DC-DC-CONV-SEVCON-622-11202-NON-EMC-ZM60-04015 (https://www.af1racing.com/DC-DC-CONV-SEVCON-622-11202-NON-EMC-ZM60-04015)
There is a Parts Manual, on AF1's website, where you can look-up parts.
https://www.af1racing.com/2020-Zero-SRF-Spare-Parts-Catalog (https://www.af1racing.com/2020-Zero-SRF-Spare-Parts-Catalog)
-
Four months after getting a new 12V battery replaced under warranty, the new battery is already dead. So back to the dealer it goes. Does anyone know the name or part number of the DC-to-DC converter on a 2020 SR/F? I want to make sure the dealer replaces it this time.
Bummer that the bike ate another 12v battery. Really does sound like a issue with the DCDC converter not correctly charging the battery. Other possibility, there is something wrong with the logic used to maintain the 12v packs charge?
I am not sure what type of 12v battery Zero uses but I would guess it's a small (lower capacity) sealed lead acid pack. If that is true the bikes DCDC needs to provide 14.4v to fully charge the 12v pack, you should be able to measure this with the bike keyed on.
Ideally the bike should wake the main HV pack up to recharge the 12v battery any time it sees the voltage drop below ~11.5v. Zero might use a lithium pack for their 12v battery, in that case the above principals still hold true but the voltages would be different.
Hope the 2nd time is the charm.
-
Zero might use a lithium pack for their 12v battery, in that case the above principals still hold true but the voltages would be different.
They do. I've seen it but I can't recall the brand/model.
-
lifepo4 indeed, DennisNL recently shared a picture of his during charge tank install on FB https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=949762169304238&set=g.111611975574686
-
Zero might use a lithium pack for their 12v battery, in that case the above principals still hold true but the voltages would be different.
They do. I've seen it but I can't recall the brand/model.
I actually replaced my 12V battery last week and surgically cut open the plastic shell on the old one just to see what junk they are putting in there.
No brand and only a couple of alpha-numeric strings which when I googled it, got no hits.
Either super-secret stuff or el cheapo junk that cannot be identified.
I cannot post pictures today because I am out of town.
If anyone is interested, reply and I will post them on Thursday.
-
They do. I've seen it but I can't recall the brand/model.
Good to know. Guess that explains the heating element.
I actually replaced my 12V battery last week and surgically cut open the plastic shell on the old one just to see what junk they are putting in there.
No brand and only a couple of alpha-numeric strings which when I googled it, got no hits.
Either super-secret stuff or el cheapo junk that cannot be identified.
I cannot post pictures today because I am out of town.
If anyone is interested, reply and I will post them on Thursday.
Please do post photos when you have a chance. Wonder if there is anything inside the pack to balance cell voltages or over/under voltage/current protection?
If the cells do not have any identifying markings the options could be narrowed down by measuring cell capacity.
-
I got my replacement through a Zero dealer.
There are some markings on the cells but when I google and bing them, got no real hits and I tried entering just a part of the characters printed on the cells, as well as the whole thing but no cigar.
I did not see any balancing components on the battery but have not dissected the cells themselves. There are four cells attached by one end and two thick wires (look like AWG 8.) going to the posts.
Because this battery is 2 and a half years old, it would be imposible to measure capacity accurately. I have a West Mountain tester that connects to a laptop and can analyze a battery pretty good but I am sure it would give bogus info being that this battery is so old and have reduced capacity.
I go back home on Wednesday night and will post the pics then.
-
I'm fairly sure it's this unbranded Antigravity battery with a custom heater element on it:
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-401/
-
The previous decade of Zero motorcycles without 12-volt batteries is evidence they are not actually necessary on an E-bike. I read on this site that at some point recently Zero even added the always-on 12-volt line to the OBDII connector, and that is on an SR without a 12-volt battery. Whether they did that by leaving the main DC-DC converter active at all times or setup a dedicated little buck switch mode power supply, I don't know. I can say that the draw on the main battery pack is irrelevant. On its face, I'd say that choice to use a 12-volt battery is borderline retarded, but I would actually like to see Zero's reasoning behind it because I'm sure they didn't just do it on a whim.
-
The previous decade of Zero motorcycles without 12-volt batteries is evidence they are not actually necessary on an E-bike. I read on this site that at some point recently Zero even added the always-on 12-volt line to the OBDII connector, and that is on an SR without a 12-volt battery. Whether they did that by leaving the main DC-DC converter active at all times or setup a dedicated little buck switch mode power supply, I don't know. I can say that the draw on the main battery pack is irrelevant. On its face, I'd say that choice to use a 12-volt battery is borderline retarded, but I would actually like to see Zero's reasoning behind it because I'm sure they didn't just do it on a whim.
Does Zero still use a DC-DC converter on the SR models? If not, that would explain the use of a 12V battery. But if they still do, such as to recharge the accessory battery, then perhaps they are using a low power output DC-DC that is less expensive than the 500W version like I have in my bike. ???
I bet that a small 12V battery is a lot less expensive than a big $365 (retail) 500W DC-DC converter. BTW, as I recall the earlier Gen 2 models used a 300W converter and I would expect that even smaller ones are not to hard to source. I also would not be surprised if Zero feels that they need a 12V lithium battery to power the ABS braking system should the bike's power die at speed on the roadway. Stranger things have happened in the past. ;)
-
Does Zero still use a DC-DC converter on the SR models? If not, that would explain the use of a 12V battery. But if they still do, such as to recharge the accessory battery, then perhaps they are using a low power output DC-DC that is less expensive than the 500W version like I have in my bike. ???
I bet that a small 12V battery is a lot less expensive than a big $365 (retail) 500W DC-DC converter. BTW, as I recall the earlier Gen 2 models used a 300W converter and I would expect that even smaller ones are not to hard to source. I also would not be surprised if Zero feels that they need a 12V lithium battery to power the ABS braking system should the bike's power die at speed on the roadway. Stranger things have happened in the past. ;)
According to the unofficial manual, the later model SRs (at least up to 2021) got a 500W DC-DC converter. For the models with ABS, it's claimed the ABS pump uses the headroom provided by the 500W over the older 300W variant.