ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: ESokoloff on August 07, 2021, 07:54:09 AM
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A month ago the my 06 DSR battery was replace due to insufficient charge capacity.
My old charge pattern was to plug in upon arrival at work & unplug @ the end of my shift (with 100% SOC). I figured this would be ok as it would only be @ 100% for a short time.
I only needed to charge at work (tho often arrived at work below 10%).
Now with a battery 10% greater I’m changing my charge strategy.
I have a 6 hr spring wound timer that I’ve corded up & using to (try) for 85% SOC.
This allows a buffer on both stream sides of SOC.
I’ve read that this is best for battery retention level.
The problem is that I need more then the 6 hrs & have to add time to the timer sometime during the day.
Ideally I need an 8 hr timer but can’t find one.
The next size up is 12hr & I’m concerned that the resolution won’t be adequate.
Any suggestions?
Has to have contacts rated for 15a
Thx.
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I run my entire house on Batteries and Solar.
The batteries are beginning to get old as they were manufactured back in 2009.
As such, I have started using timers for things that don't need to be on constantly.
The ones I use are from Harbor Freight They are around $10 and I believe that they can be
set for 24 hours. Digital.
Hope this helps
https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-timer-95205.html
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If you never charge to 100% you won't get any cell balancing. If you were using over 90% of the original battery to get from work (presumably it takes the same to get back as it does to get there) and the new battery is 110% then 85% of that is going to be 93.5% of the capacity of the old battery, so it may not be enough. I'd just let it go to 100%, I can't imagine sitting for a few hours plugged in but not charging (it's not like the charger is going to keep forcing energy into the battery once it gets to 100%) is going to do any harm.
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If you never charge to 100% you won't get any cell balancing. If you were using over 90% of the original battery to get from work (presumably it takes the same to get back as it does to get there) and the new battery is 110% then 85% of that is going to be 93.5% of the capacity of the old battery, so it may not be enough. I'd just let it go to 100%, I can't imagine sitting for a few hours plugged in but not charging (it's not like the charger is going to keep forcing energy into the battery once it gets to 100%) is going to do any harm.
My old 2014 Zero S sat for three years with the charger plugged in all of the time as Zero recommended back then. While that did seem to kill off the OBC, the batteries on that bike, which my daughter now rides, appear to still be as good as new. However, she is now following Zero's latest recommendation and is storing her Zero at between 60 and 80% SOC and then charging it up to 100% the night before she plans a ride. If her battery pack has degraded over the years, it is not obvious. :)
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I’ll add more context to the discussion.....
I’m the second owner so don’t know what happened it’s first 8 months, 2,800 miles.
The (original) battery had 59,000 miles on it & they were hard miles (full charges with rapid discharges often to 00%).
The old battery got so bad that it started limiting its output so top speed degraded based on SOC.
Hollywood Electric performed a software update & this did wonders to the performance (usable power) but the SOC depletion rate approximately doubled.
After this software update, I always charged an additional hr or more after getting home (charged to 100% SOC @ work) due to range anxiety.
I estimate a typical charge I need 6.25 hrs on the low end & perhaps 7.25 on the high end.
I’m sure winter will increase that amount (air density increase).
What I’m looking for is a timer that’s able to yield @ min. 1/4 hr increments accurately so I’m thinking that rules out a 12hr spring wound timer.
A solid state timer that’s compact (fit in a 2”x4” standard elect J-box) with a 15a rating) is likely the solution if I can find one that’s reasonably priced.
It’s a bit difficult precisely estimating how much charge time is required to yield precisely 85%.
I’m using the formula of 1hr/10%soc.
Re cell balance, yes that’s a concern I have. A few days ago I used the app to check it before starting my trip home & found it to be 4-5mv (this after a month/1,500 miles of max. 85% SOC). I should get in the habit of checking mv @ 85% SOC periodically.
Per all the info I’ve shifted through, I’m finding for greatest battery longevity its best to limit SOC charge so I’m shooting for 85%.
This new battery is great.
I’m guessing I now have double the battery capacity & want to keep it that way so 85% SOC it is.
As a side note, I’m wondering if the old battery suffered from Internal resistance & if so, would that cause some of the energy (used to charge itj to turn into heat rather then electron storage?
Seems like it takes less charging time to go the same distance & also perhaps yielding a cooler battery (all seat of the pants/no hard data).
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So I think I’ve come up with a solution.
Use a 4 hr spring wound timer that’s is SPDT. use the NC contact to trigger an Off Delay timer that’s set for 3.25 hrs.
Per my observations it seams that the charge rate is 10%/hr with an additional 1/4 hr as a fudge factor.
The 4 hr timer has 10min increments so accuracy is greater then the 15min of a 6hr timer.
My typical commute requires 6.25-6.5hrs of charge.
The two timers will set me back about 75$ but will be quick to implement.
A simple math estimate on charge required & twist spring wound timer to that value (face plate will be modified by adding 3hr (1 changed to 4 etc).
Now that I have the solution I’m beginning to question my reasoning.
Perhaps I should consider further limiting of the battery charge/discharge levels by charging both at work as well as at home.
Perhaps 4 hrs at work & 2(+) at home.
This would put less stress on battery & increase its usefulness.
Instead of the 85-15% level that I’m now subjecting the battery to, it would be more in the range of 70-35%.
Any thoughts or even timer suggestions?
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Rather than a timer, wouldn't a circuit that would disconnect the charger once the desired SOC was achieved be more useful? I do not have the knowledge of what it is called or how it is made, but such a circuit would be of interest to me too.
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ESokoloff, first I have a question. Did Zero give you a full 5 year warranty on the replacement battery?
Any battery is like a chain and only as good as it's weakest cell. Of the two extremes low SOC would prove to be more stressful than Zero's 100% SOC. Two weeks below 5% would almost surly kill the whole battery while 2 weeks at 100% might stress some cells, most are fine.
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Rather than a timer, wouldn't a circuit that would disconnect the charger once the desired SOC was achieved be more useful? I do not have the knowledge of what it is called or how it is made, but such a circuit would be of interest to me too.
Absolutely an AutoMagic device would be superior but above my abilities hence my request for assistance.
I’m fairly pleased with what I’ve electro-mechanically cobbled together.
Every now and again I’m wrong in my math so my ending SOC is off & once I toggled the DPDT switch for the electronic timer while the spring wound timer was off so I short changed my ending SOC.
I had recently thought about how an electronic device could monitor the battery voltage & cut off the charging via a contactor.
Would be extra nice if this could be done via a smart phone/app.
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ESokoloff, first I have a question. Did Zero give you a full 5 year warranty on the replacement battery?
Any battery is like a chain and only as good as it's weakest cell. Of the two extremes low SOC would prove to be more stressful than Zero's 100% SOC. Two weeks below 5% would almost surly kill the whole battery while 2 weeks at 100% might stress some cells, most are fine.
No discussion of warranty of new battery with dealer.
I have to think (know) that it’s warranty expired @ the bikes 5th year date.
Re SOC I’m still open for suggestions as to the perfect charging strategy.
My old/original routine was to charge to 100% at work only so the battery sat for a few to several hrs fully charged & the next work day I would arrive at work with a fairly low SOC.
There’s static & kinetic charge (resting/running).
In my case, there is no low static SOC as I immediately plug in after each leg of my commute.
However there is high static SOC which I’m now limiting to 70%.
I’m wondering if I should shoot for 80 so as to bring the low kinetic SOC up?
What degrades a battery the most....... Low volts/High amps (running with low SOC) or High volts (storing @ a High SOC)?
Also I have to think that the discharge rate has a great bearing on battery health.
My AM commute is fairly fast so SOC goes down fast. The lower the SOC, the higher the amps.
So again, is High amps a greater detriment to the battery then Higher static voltage?
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Rather than a timer, wouldn't a circuit that would disconnect the charger once the desired SOC was achieved be more useful? I do not have the knowledge of what it is called or how it is made, but such a circuit would be of interest to me too.
Absolutely an AutoMagic device would be superior but above my abilities hence my request for assistance.
I’m fairly pleased with what I’ve electro-mechanically cobbled together.
Every now and again I’m wrong in my math so my ending SOC is off & once I toggled the DPDT switch for the electronic timer while the spring wound timer was off so I short changed my ending SOC.
I had recently thought about how an electronic device could monitor the battery voltage & cut off the charging via a contactor.
Would be extra nice if this could be done via a smart phone/app.
What a luck - i can help 8)
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11558.0
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You can use a smart power plug & program start & end timing to whatever level you want.
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Rather than a timer, wouldn't a circuit that would disconnect the charger once the desired SOC was achieved be more useful? I do not have the knowledge of what it is called or how it is made, but such a circuit would be of interest to me too.
Absolutely an AutoMagic device would be superior but above my abilities hence my request for assistance.
I’m fairly pleased with what I’ve electro-mechanically cobbled together.
Every now and again I’m wrong in my math so my ending SOC is off & once I toggled the DPDT switch for the electronic timer while the spring wound timer was off so I short changed my ending SOC.
I had recently thought about how an electronic device could monitor the battery voltage & cut off the charging via a contactor.
Would be extra nice if this could be done via a smart phone/app.
What a luck - i can help 8)
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11558.0
Details on what this device is would nice.
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You can use a smart power plug & program start & end timing to whatever level you want.
You can use a smart power plug & program start & end timing to whatever level you want.
I’m happy with the manual solution I came up with as it’s compact (approx 4.5”x3.5”x2.25”), is fast to configure (flip a toggle switch &/or spin a timer knob to desired setting), & doesn’t require any external suport.
I charge twice a commuting day. I don’t have time/patience to fiddle with an app.
What I originally sought was an automatic/hands off approach.
Perhaps bernardo has come up with such a device.
In the meantime, I’m quite pleased with my electro-mechanical solution.
Ending charge level is within a few % of target & mostly right at target point.
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Yes Moto7575 - you are right- carging can be done your way.
ZERO++ charges and takes care of your battery in another dimension.
* It's communicating with your ZERO and shows some important values which it is working with
* It takes care of your batteries health by charging to the SOC you've set.
* It's calculating when it starts charging and your ZERO will be charged at the time you have choosen. Even at another day, week, month...
* It's taking care of your batterie all winter long once you've startet the WinterMode by
keeping the SOC at the level of your needs and also regulates the batteries temperature.
* Or simlpy bring your batterie to the right tempertaure before you're going to ride it in the cold season.
* Charging instantainously is also possible. Up to 100% if you want and then balancing your batterie.
* It does no change any built-in precautions of the battery managemnt system. So there is no trouble with warranty.
* It works with all chargers, Internal, external, two or more.
* A RealTimeClock guarantees for excact time even when you unplug it.
* A 3.2" touchscreen simplifies operation
* The ZERO++ is connected between your wallplug and your charger(s)
* The OBDII plug has to be connected to maintain the communication
* Foilheater may easyly be installed - and then also connected
Bernardo
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“ The OBDII plug has to be connected to maintain the communication”
That’s a deal breaker for me.
Anyway to have the OBDII reader always left in & communicating with the controller via BlueTooth & automatically charging to a preconfigured SOC & requiring only plugging in the charge cord?
Also can the controller be mounted to the bike?
I’m satisfied with my solution as its virtually hassle free taking little effort & relative inexpensive.
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Hi ESokoloff!
yes - its a good idea to mount the device on te bike. Why not.
a protection again environmental influences is necessary then.
it consumes about one - well known - pint of volume
und would fit into the size of the housing you decribed -
when it comes without power adaptor for heating.
your needs are different to mine.
charge twice a day about the same time.
now that i've cracked the code 'everything' is possible.
its just a question of indiviual programming.
the gadget may charge the bike at two different times a day to a given level.
just when you plug it in- with no hands on.
i dont know where you live. Is heating an issue?
or do you live in one of those warm & cosy sunshine states?
Not so in Austria :'(
Bernardo
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I use a TP-Link smart receptacle to control charge on my bike. I have it set to turn off every morning at 4:30 when I am usually leaving for work. Every day when I get home, I plug in the bike. I go to the Kasa app (for the TP-Link) and program the receptacle to turn on at whatever time will give me the charge that I want by 4:30 AM. My bike gets about 10% charge/hour like clockwork. I can obviously program those times to be whatever I want. On the weekends, if I have some heads up that I'm going to want to go somewhere, I'll remotely activate the receptacle and use its timer function to shut it down.
Technically, the TP-Link is capable of handling the charge current at 120V, but I took two circuits in my garage and wired them together to make a 240-volt circuit into a Nema5-15 receptacle. The TP-Link cuts off only one live leg but only has to deal with half the current. The electrical cord is considerably cooler (more efficient) as well. Unplugging one end makes for a good taser.
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Hi ESokoloff!
yes - its a good idea to mount the device on te bike. Why not.
a protection again environmental influences is necessary then.
it consumes about one - well known - pint of volume
und would fit into the size of the housing you decribed -
when it comes without power adaptor for heating.
your needs are different to mine.
charge twice a day about the same time.
now that i've cracked the code 'everything' is possible.
its just a question of indiviual programming.
the gadget may charge the bike at two different times a day to a given level.
just when you plug it in- with no hands on.
i dont know where you live. Is heating an issue?
or do you live in one of those warm & cosy sunshine states?
Not so in Austria :'(
Bernardo
Hi Bernardo,
I live in (mostly) Sunny Southern California & my DSR stays in a garage overnight & an inclosed parking structure when at work so no heating needs.
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…….The electrical cord is considerably cooler (more efficient) as well. …..
If your cord(s) ran warm to the touch at their ends on 110v then I would suggest you look at chopping off the ends & installing your own with screw connections as I’ve found factory crimp connections to be a weak spot that if uncorrected will lead to issues.
Charging on 220v will help with poor connections but still recommend ditching factory crimped connections.