ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: yhafting on July 17, 2021, 01:17:02 AM
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Having ridden my SS9+ one day, i see a couple things i would love Energica to provide or improve in the firmware
1: Easier access to regeneration modes while riding.
2: A different way of setting cruise control speed.
Now of course one can say that having ridden just one day, i will surely improve my skills in setting these, but ill argue that although the implementation may work for some, there are a different route that would make much more sense.
1: First, having to first access menu, then changing between 4 modes with a thumb button, requires looking at the screen, (or counting thumb moves) which really should not be necessary when changing modes on the fly (time consuming and dangerous). When driving EVs in general i have gotten used to changing regenerative schemes (both with the SR and the Hyundai Ioniq EV car i drive) depending on the road ahead, and that can be several times each minute, since the roads vary between twisting roads, straight roads, hills, no traffic and dense traffic.
While going on a track, it may be beneficial to set the regeneration scheme in one modus, and then making the most of it to improve skills. But since i'm focusing on road abilities i want to be able to switch fast and easy between regenerative modes and cruise control. When using cruise control, i will mostly always want to have no or low regeneration, because it sucks when the bike jerks when having to turn it off in a non planned manner (without using the throttle). Also with changing road conditions i would like to switch on the fly to more or less regeneration as i go down slopes or enter dense or less dense traffic. If this could be done by simply flipping the mode button that would be much easier to govern.
So thus for 1: my proposition is as follows:
1: Allow the user to set up the use of the mode button while riding. Personally i would like to use the mode button solely for changing regeneration (right = up, left = down).
While the information provided using this button may be nice, it is not something i would want to fiddle with while riding, and changing those i probably could live with hiding behind the left "SET" button. The regeneration scheme is infinitely more useful to change on the fly. If that is debatable (im sure someone will disagree) then make it an option for the settings.
For 2: my proposition is:
2: Allow the user to arm CC using the CC button, and then set the current speed with the SET button. When in CC, the mode button can be used to dial up and down speed while holding the SET button pressed as before. Using brake should remove the current CC speed, but CC is armed so SET can be used directly until CC is disarmed.
To me such a scheme seems much more comprehensible than the scheme used today. While dialing in the exact speed is nice, it it a well planned action that will take some time. The CC button is so far from the throttle that it is a difficult exercise to set the speed first, and given it takes 3 seconds it is very hard to maintain speed while setting initial CC speed. When i set CC i might want to use it for 10 seconds to rest my hands briefly. Using three seconds to set the CC speed initially is too long, and using perhaps 4-5 more to dial in an accurate speed (that i could not achieve because i used 3 seconds the first time) is only useful in very few limited circumstances. Since the SET button is much closer to the throttle it would make a world of difference if a brief press would be all it takes to set the current speed. Then i hardly would need to adjust the speed at all- but if i have to do so, it would make sense to just hold the set button and then use mode to dial up or down speed. The CC button could thus be used for only arming CC and disarming the use of set button for setting speed.
So what do you think- does this make sense for more experienced riders?
Are you able to change both regen and CC fast and efficiently on the fly, or is it limited by the implementation?
Are there genuinely good reasons for not changing or allowing this as an option?
EDIT: changed the use of SET button to set briefly and hold for allowing mode to change speed.
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I have absolutely no problem with the way I change Regen while riding. First, I don't often change regen modes. But when I do at this point it's automatic for me. Trigger left hand pointer ringer, toggle thumb right however many times I need, press Mode twice to confirm. Done. I can do this in under a second and not even need to look at the screen.
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Set-n-forget (regen) here. Sampled the settings on day one, liked what was behind curtain #4 and have never felt need to change.
As mentioned, CC is virtually impossible to invoke w/o disrupting current throttle setting - moving the actuation buttons to the left handle bar side is a viable solution.
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I have absolutely no problem with the way I change Regen while riding. First, I don't often change regen modes. But when I do at this point it's automatic for me. Trigger left hand pointer ringer, toggle thumb right however many times I need, press Mode twice to confirm. Done. I can do this in under a second and not even need to look at the screen.
Thanks, that is good to know. I did expect that it could become second nature, however i also think faster is better. (At least as an option)
But i have some follow up:
- Do you use CC actively when riding?
- Do you often switch riding screens when riding?
- Do you find yourself wanting to rest the right arm sometimes while riding?
-- if so, what do you usually do then?
(Personally i do need to rest my arms from time to time- so i prefer coasting downhill or using CC for a brief moment. )
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Set-n-forget (regen) here. Sampled the settings on day one, liked what was behind curtain #4 and have never felt need to change.
As mentioned, CC is virtually impossible to invoke w/o disrupting current throttle setting - moving the actuation buttons to the left handle bar side is a viable solution.
Thanks, i do think i will use the high setting more once i get used to it too. By my experience from the Ionic however, (which has easy access to switching using handles at the steering wheel for that purpose alone), i know i do frequently change regen setting and i would prefer to have that option to. (In particular because i need to rest my arms from time to time).
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I have absolutely no problem with the way I change Regen while riding. First, I don't often change regen modes. But when I do at this point it's automatic for me. Trigger left hand pointer ringer, toggle thumb right however many times I need, press Mode twice to confirm. Done. I can do this in under a second and not even need to look at the screen.
That sounds horrible.
-Crissa
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That sounds horrible.
It's a lot easier than it sounds.
I always keep my regen low or totally off when on the freeway and switch to max regen when I exit and am on the city streets.
I change regen fairly often because of above.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Mine is on full regen all the time, what is the advantage of lowering it ?
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Mine is on full regen all the time, what is the advantage of lowering it ?
I turn mine to low on curvy roads just to mimic the slight engine braking that I was used to in ICE bikes. I don't like the regen slowing me down so abruptly coming into a corner where I just want to gradually skim some speed. I use it on high in city/urban areas because I like not having to use the brakes all the time and from what I understand the high regen activates the brake light.
I've only had the bike for a couple of weeks and 450 or so miles, and it has become second nature to go through the button presses to change regen. I change the riding mode too, just as easily.
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Mine is on full regen all the time, what is the advantage of lowering it ?
Much better coasting at freeway speeds in the hills (such as a freeway in the mountains, as I often take).
You can waste a lot of energy by having regen up too high at faster speeds when on hilly freeway. You will get better range coasting down a hill than having the bike slow down from excessive regen to get up the next hill.
However, if you use the cruise control or keep a very steady speed, it maters little where your regen is at.
As a general rule, the faster you go you want less regen. You want it at max it city traffic. You get the best benefit of regen when you MUST slow down, such as coming up to a red light or stop sign.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Reading this I guess I might have to really get used to changing the regen setting (once I get hold of that EV bike).
In my Model 3 LR I only chance to low regen after it has been washed or if it has been parked for several days during heavy rainfall. Mostly just drive the car with right pedal only and hardly ever brake.
Would have thought that was possible also with an EV bike for easier controlling the speed into a corner.
Have only tried an SR/F for 30 minutes so have little reallife experience on an EV bike. As far as I remember the Zero's regen setting is automatically set to low when selecting sport mode?
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Will try to set the regen at a different setting next time, but I like the "hard" engine braking. I drive quite aggressively like I drive the GSXR's and now I have to use
the brake less, it took a little time to getting used to in the beginning. I was used to that the bike normally having some lift at the back due to strong braking with the
front brake and that's not happening right now. So now I do a full throttle until a corner then let it go and the bike brakes without having to touch the brake and then
immediately put the gas back on. I don't ride this bike for relaxation but just for the thrill :)
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Reading this I guess I might have to really get used to changing the regen setting (once I get hold of that EV bike).
In my Model 3 LR I only chance to low regen after it has been washed or if it has been parked for several days during heavy rainfall. Mostly just drive the car with right pedal only and hardly ever brake.
Would have thought that was possible also with an EV bike for easier controlling the speed into a corner.
Have only tried an SR/F for 30 minutes so have little reallife experience on an EV bike. As far as I remember the Zero's regen setting is automatically set to low when selecting sport mode?
I keep my Tesla M3 LW AWD regen on "low" 99% of the time. It's the only thing I have changed from the default. If I expect to be stuck in the city, I will turn it back to the default.
BTW, if everything is set at max in our Enercias (Sport & max Regen) we can still get the exact same benefits as low or no regen by riding very slow and easy and not backing off the throttle much. The only thing the switching to less does is to limit us. However, I like the "feel" of the bike better when both are lower than trying to use the throttle to get the same effect. You could just leave everything at max and adjust it all by the rather touchy throttle. It's less touchy at lower settings. So some people just leave everything at max and get used to it that way. I prefer the lower settings, myself. But I cannot say there is a right way or wrong way to set the bike. But I can say the misuse of regen being too high can waste more energy than you can gain back and it can decrease your range.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don =>
Why not just one-pedal drive your Tesla (normal regen). In case you use “creep mode ON” I understand you would dislike one-pedal driving.
Are you concerned about brakes not getting much exercise or do you believe you get better range when coasting?
I don’t think I could measure any +/- in range between regen at low or normal - at least not in flat Denmark. Regen just suits Creep mode OFF better.
Every 6 months (when switching summer/winter tires) I service the brakes. They work perfectly and they have very little wear after 2 years.
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Don =>
Why not just one-pedal drive your Tesla (normal regen). In case you use “creep mode ON” I understand you would dislike one-pedal driving.
Are you concerned about brakes not getting much exercise or do you believe you get better range when coasting?
I don’t think I could measure any +/- in range between regen at low or normal - at least not in flat Denmark. Regen just suits Creep mode OFF better.
Every 6 months (when switching summer/winter tires) I service the brakes. They work perfectly and they have very little wear after 2 years.
I do keep the one pedal selected. But I never used the creep mode.
I only have 6,200 miles/ 10km on my 2018 Tesla M3. I mainly ride motorcycles unless the weather doesn't cooperate.
Yeah, brakes can be ruined by lack of use. I had it happen with an ICE car that has been sitting for a very long time. As soon as I drove it a brake pad fell apart. I asked about it in an auto forum and found out that is common on unused vehicles where the brakes are not used often, such as when a car sits too long.
It is very hilly around here and the car slows down too much when I let go of the accretor pedal. So I prefer mild. Perhaps also gives better range as the regen is on much longer when coasting down a hill.
But I mainly think of regen setting as a personal preference with any electric vehicle, motorcycle or car. I simply prefer low except in city traffic where I want the max regen possible.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have absolutely no problem with the way I change Regen while riding. First, I don't often change regen modes. But when I do at this point it's automatic for me. Trigger left hand pointer ringer, toggle thumb right however many times I need, press Mode twice to confirm. Done. I can do this in under a second and not even need to look at the screen.
That sounds horrible.
-Crissa
Crissa, It's actually a very smart and safe way to change modes. His eyes never leave the road - a huge safety advantage. I hope to one day mimic his way of changing modes.
Energica's are very different from Zero's - there's 16 combinations, all preset. I feel Energica's presets are just right.
Whereas - A 14 SR is very simple, 3 mode settings, 2 are preset and 'custom' is the only adjustable.
Spend time on an Energica and you quickly learn why Morgan's way of doing business is smart.
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Don =>
Why not just one-pedal drive your Tesla (normal regen). In case you use “creep mode ON” I understand you would dislike one-pedal driving.
Are you concerned about brakes not getting much exercise or do you believe you get better range when coasting?
I don’t think I could measure any +/- in range between regen at low or normal - at least not in flat Denmark. Regen just suits Creep mode OFF better.
Every 6 months (when switching summer/winter tires) I service the brakes. They work perfectly and they have very little wear after 2 years.
Simple is good - no efficiency loss when regen is fixed - the higher the level the more finesse in throttle control to yield the equivalent to coasting - you are coasting when energy consumption is zero. Setting chosen value allows virtually no brakes for city except always the last 10ft and heavy reliance on regen for aggressive riding is the only way to manage the weight of the bike. At first that depenacy is nerve racking then one warms up to the precision and repeatability which speaks to reliability - riding a little scared is good too such as wondering what-if regen went open circuit...mtbf is unknown...
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yhafting thanks for putting together such a comprehensive analysis of the CC and regen systems. Feedback from riders is always appreciated.
My 2c on regen... Changing how the bike behaves needs to be a conscious decision made by the rider. I agree it would be faster to be able to swap between regen modes with the flick of a switch. Yet the danger in accidently bumping a switch that changes your mode from high regen to regen off is just too great.
Experience with the bike will allow you to access the drive mode menu and adjust settings without taking your eyes off the road. Getting accustomed to the coast position of the throttle and how the variable regen works will go a long way towards setting and forgetting your regen mode. I normally drive in the high position, sometimes when driving in the city I'll switch it to medium. Medium is also useful when riding tight twisty back roads with imperfect road conditions, keeps any accidental throttle movements from upsetting the bike too much.
As for the function of the CC - pretty much everyone agrees that the CC button is too far away to comfortable enable while maintaining constant throttle position. My hack for this is to engage cc using my left hand, not ideal but it allows you to maintain your speed. Other members have swapped the set and cc buttons on the control, and rewired the circuit to use an additional button on the left side.
Quick engagement of the cc function is again something if done inadvertently could be dangerous, by accidently bumping a button it would cause you to accelerate quickly without throttle input. I see the other side of this coin and totally understand how cc would be easier to use if the function of the buttons changed. Being able to select between 2 different function modes (current and what you suggested) of the regen system in the bike's preferences menu might be an way to satisfy everyone?
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Is there a downside to moving the CC button assembly to the left handlebar position besides having to remove tank panels disconnect item first, reroute and reconnect?
Yes, it becomes a two-handed slightly awkward operation to invoke GO (red kill actuator not mirrored), so what?
Was gonna try this in the winter but cautiously...prefer a left hand variant form manufacturer, does one exist (red actuator mirrored from OEM)?
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My 2c on regen... Changing how the bike behaves needs to be a conscious decision made by the rider. I agree it would be faster to be able to swap between regen modes with the flick of a switch. Yet the danger in accidently bumping a switch that changes your mode from high regen to regen off is just too great.
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As for the function of the CC - ...
Being able to select between 2 different function modes (current and what you suggested) of the regen system in the bike's preferences menu might be an way to satisfy everyone?
Thanks for chiming in! (Writing on a mobile today, so i will be brief:)
I think the dangers of changing regen can be mitigated by not being round robin toggle, but rather right=up, left=down when activated directly using mode button alone (my suggestion). At the end it would stay at the present choice. This would actually be safer than today, when this risk is present after using (left) set button. The method of today also presents the danger of a accidentally selecting ride-mode, which seems unnecessary (at least with the SS9 that has excellent throttle control at all speeds in sport. There is much less incentives to change than on my previous bike, which i did frequently. Now i guess i might use rain-mode when it is wet, as a reminder of just that, i dont think ill feel the urge to switch in dense traffic or while splitting lanes as i did with the Zero).
I would be very happy if my suggestion for Cc was possible to enable in the prefeferences. The same goes wirh the regen setting proposal ;)
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I have absolutely no problem with the way I change Regen while riding. First, I don't often change regen modes. But when I do at this point it's automatic for me. Trigger left hand pointer ringer, toggle thumb right however many times I need, press Mode twice to confirm. Done. I can do this in under a second and not even need to look at the screen.
That sounds horrible.
Crissa, It's actually a very smart and safe way to change modes. His eyes never leave the road - a huge safety advantage. I hope to one day mimic his way of changing modes.
It still sounds terrible. How many button toggles in toto?
-Crissa
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It still sounds terrible. How many button toggles in toto?
It isn't too bad to get used to it. And then you don't have to change it as much as on a Zero because you can dial the regen continuously with the twist of your wrist. I leave it in medium mode most of the time.
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I don't double-click to confirm shifting down in the Mazda or Ducati. The chorded shift is enough safety, and even that seems like too much for regen. I have my Zero set so I can turn regen up with a slight press of a forefinger if I want to really slow down or add a thumpress if I need a little more. And even that isn't ideal, since Zero locks out the mode key while maintaining speed.
-Crissa
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I don't double-click to confirm shifting down in the Mazda or Ducati. The chorded shift is enough safety, and even that seems like too much for regen. I have my Zero set so I can turn regen up with a slight press of a forefinger if I want to really slow down or add a thumpress if I need a little more. And even that isn't ideal, since Zero locks out the mode key while maintaining speed.
That's what I was talking about. You don't have to do any of this on an Energica to get the same effect. Just close the throttle a bit more :)
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That's what I was talking about. You don't have to do any of this on an Energica to get the same effect. Just close the throttle a bit more :)
That's also terrible.
-Crissa
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That's what I was talking about. You don't have to do any of this on an Energica to get the same effect. Just close the throttle a bit more :)
That's also terrible.
-Crissa
I recently switched to a Tesla cage and am a fan of the one pedal driving. I don't think it would be terrible to have a variable regen on deceleration on the bike.
Everybody can have different configurations if they are available. The problems with Zero's options is that they aren't too customizable and easily switchable.
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Requiring fine throttle position constantly means that hand never gets to relax.
-Crissa
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When the bike comes to a stop, you no longer have to apply throttle - relax all you need then.
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Relaxing on a motorcycle does sound dangerous. Relaxing at stops or putting the cruise on can take care of relaxing your right hand. Remember we have is slightly easier than our gas burning friends who need to use their left hands for clutch control. The most my left hand does now is control the audio on my helmet.
I'd probably prefer a bi-directional throttle that had a central stop that would be coast, but then had a progressive regen on the forward roll of the wrist.
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I have an incomplete list of things I can do without too much brainpower that will allow me to accomplish tasks like switching regen mode:
- Typing without looking at the keyboard
- Using only one hand to hold a juice box to consume juice
- Breathing
I know all these sound dangerous but sometimes one must live on the edge.
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You still drink juice boxes? :o
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You still drink juice boxes? :o
I find juice boxes to be very handy to drink from when I go camping. ;)
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You still drink juice boxes? :o
You too good for a juice box, bro? Mott's would like a word with you.
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After a certain age I stopped even considering juice boxes. I guess since I don't have any spawn they never re-entered my life.
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I'll file those suggestions under 'My stairs are safe as long as I'm in good shape to make the varied height steps'.
-Crissa
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When the bike comes to a stop, you no longer have to apply throttle - relax all you need then.
How often do you actually stop your bike during a ride?
For me i usually stop after an hour or so, or if there is some purpose to it. But going one hour without some sort of relaxation can be a long time.
I get some relaxation by
1: Allowing the bike to coast (can be done in slopes that aren't too steep, which there are plenty of around here)
2: Using Cruise control (right now, that is only a viable option for long-straight road/ highways which aren't my favourite pick for joyrides- but if this is subject to change i might use it a lot.).
For 1, this requires changing settings for regen should be fast and without reading the dash. (There are other options that would work for me, such as hold to reset+ push for each step up, but id prefer toggling up and down using the mode button- in stead of menu toggling).
Now one can always skill up etc master difficult control positions, knowing where the 0-point throttle etc. But it can also be done easy- hassle and risk free- which is why i started this thread. As it seems, by this thread, even experienced E-mc riders doesn't use their bike to the full potential in these terms- perhaps because they do not need, or because it doesnt appeal to them, but i know i will if i get the chance.
For my own part, the last four years i have about 60kkm of EV driving (along with 30kkm on the Zero i owned) with an ionic EV which is much similiar to the Energica bikes in the available regen schemes . Only difference is that the Ionic has near perfected switching regen modes by having two handles by the steering wheel to toggle regen up or down. Now i have to admit, the first 20kkm of driving, i did mostly change regen when braking, otherwise i was coasting as much as possible- which is great for fuel economy but not the fastest most precise way to get around. At some point i decided to try one pedal driving, so i got into using full regen more, and then modulating everything using the pedal. Now this works great for driving in dense traffic, or twisty roads where going in precise and using the EV acceleration for what it is worth is the way to go. However most of the time road and traffic is shifting, so i adapt my regen style to the road ahead. That means changing between coasting (The ionic cannot be beaten here, as it gains speed from even the slightest of slopes), low, medium and high regen on the fly several times on virtually every trip i go. I also use Cruise control quite frequently, to relax my legs- as i also do using coasting from time to time. In the car using CC is quite simple and adaptive too, so that helps a lot. Now by combining techniques, i'm able to drive longer and more relaxed than ever before i must stop, and i can adapt to any situation in a split second (a two button combo- won't cut it by any chance). In the car, i hardly ever use brakes for anything but parking the car, yet i also coast nearly every time i drive the car for more than a couple of minutes (The ionic requires using the brake pedal from time to time, but that increases regen long before the brake pads are being utilized).
Now of course driving a car and a motorcycle is different in many aspects. We are more often on the alert, more often going about actively- however all sorts of roads and situations do occur. Sometimes you just want to go from A to B with the least amount of effort. Sometimes you want to maximize your pleasure of riding actively (where my new bike excels), and likely a longer ride will combine the two, as some roads leaves you little freedom in riding style (dense traffic, or densely populated areas, etc) and you have to use those to get to the fun liberating part. In my riding scenarios for example there are a lot of fun narrow winding roads, sprinkled with town areas where one has to go slow (40-50-60 km/h zones). So while going through these i can of course stop and relax my wrist, legs and arms, but id prefer not having to stop if i can coast, Cruice, or otherwise relax while getting to the next fun stretch.
In order to maximize the fun to rest ratio, id like to have all options for regen and cruise settings available. From what i see here, and other EV forums, it seems that at the current time most ppl are happy finding one scheme that fits them, which makes them love or hate the other options they don't use. Now while that is perfectly OK for them, i think having readily available all different methods of regen, and cruise control, will satisfy most, even though perhaps few will want to capitalize on all their options the way i would like to do.
Since these options mostly are governed by SW, and all the hardware required already are in the bike already, I voiced my opinion to see if it resonates. I will of course continue to enjoy my bike, practice and better my skills, regardless of the impact this might have. :)
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As someone coming from ICE bikes, I'd like to see a "gear selector" like switch for the left foot where I can increase or decrease regen, much like shifting down before a tight corner. I guess it must be patented if no one tried to do this so far :)
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As someone coming from ICE bikes, I'd like to see a "gear selector" like switch for the left foot where I can increase or decrease regen, much like shifting down before a tight corner. I guess it must be patented if no one tried to do this so far :)
Left-foot switch is a cool idea and non-disruptive to challenging handling situations where throttle feathering and tight handlebar grip become important - make it user programmable for regen as stated, it emulates down-shifting which right there gives rider greater control. Neat.
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BTW OP...
Eco Mode perhaps exhibits the best throttle dead-band capability for coasting control - nulling gear-whine audible level, as feedback mechanism, seems to be best method for steady-state control much much easier than Urban Mode - forget about coasting in Sport Mode, IMO and yeah, the limitations in Eco Mode need to be factored, e.g. works best for surface street running on extreme hot days.
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After I've gotten used to coasting on my Ego where there's no noise coming from the gearbox, I noticed I can do the same thing in my Model 3 Performance if the radio's off.