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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: enaef on July 11, 2021, 03:48:02 AM
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Hi
With FW 19 my impression was, that SoC on charging was not 'very true'.
Being on the road in need of new power it my be crucial to quite exactly know how much you really have in the tank.
Now I observed it closer - documented and calculated it in two different situations:
At home 3 phase 16A 230V with JuiceBooster2
At an official 22 kW charging station with a simple Type 2 cable.
After a BMS-failure and complete depletion of the battery the battery is quite new:
~ 2600 km when I did 'my thing' at home (exactly 1 month before today)
~ 5000 km when I did it at the charging station today
Attached you can find the results in PDF (as I can't upload Excel-Files).
'Method'
I observed the SR/F display and took a picture in case of changing readings.
Times I took from the picture time stamp.
To calculate what was going in in kWh I took the kW-Display readings multiplied by the time since the last change of ingoing kW.
I calculated sort of a 'real SoC' by adding up all the rest of ingoing kWh. As base I took the 12.6 kWh nominal battery capacity.
There IS A RELEVANT difference between disply-SoC and the calculated SoC.
In short:
AT HOME:
Display SoC / Calculated SoC
81 / 69.8
92 / 78
98 / 82.5
100 (first time) / 84
The last 16% SoC (after reaching Display-SoC of 100%) need 24 minutes
AT THE CHARGING STATION 22 kW
90 / 80.6
95 / 84.6
98 / 87.2
100 (first time) / 88.8
The last 11.2% SoC (after reaching Display-SoC of 100%) need 27 minutes
That confirms my observation, that the 'range promise' will not hold, if I cut the chargin too early because of high SoC on the display.
I don't know the influencing factors for this charging behaviour. Temperature will certainly be one of it. Both chargings were in warm temps.
How much the quite new battery influences things I can't tell ecactly. My dealer told me, that the BMS would need some charging cycles with the new battery in order to adjust things/calculations.
If I did things the wrong way you will tell me ... :-)
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That definitely sounds like faulty charge state history.
I wonder if there is a way to purge the saved data on the mbb?
-Crissa
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What I would expect is that if you charge at let's say 6 kW, a 12.6 kWh battery should charge a little less than 47.6% SoC per hour, provided the 6 kW remain constant. Why a little less? Because the chargers are not 100% efficient and neither is the charging process itself.
The charging setup you mentioned implies that you are not in North America.
For some odd reason I can't see the pdf you mentioned. Care to elaborate how much power was used to charge the bike or how you did the calculation?
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Yes, the setup is in Switzerland.
The time it takes to charge was not the (main) concern in my post. Main concern is the displyed SoC compared to what's really in the battery.
(On the road ofcourse it's good to know how long the cell balancing will take and how much is going in in this time. Charge rate before the beginning of the cell balancing is no concern; if it's warm enough and the charging station communicates well with the SR/F it's always ~11.6 or 11.7 kW going in. Cold or very hot temperatures are another story.)
One of the pdfs is (was) allready there.
Here is the second one.
Calculation of 'real SoC'; Example of one SoC at one specific point in time:
=100-(SUM(K38:$K$114)/12.6*100)
K38:$K$114 being all the Excel-cells containing the 'kWh-bits' going in after that specific point in time until the SR/F shuts down on its own (after finishing cell balancing).
Calculation of the 'kWh-bits':
Example: 20 seconds at a rate of 9.7 kW means 0.054 kWh going in (9.7/60/60*20).
Each time the amount of displayed kW changes, the time tifference since the last change will be taken into account and the new bit is calculatet.
In the case at the charging station I documentet 105 such bits, starting at 86% SoC at the SR/F display with the rate of 11.7 kW going in (shortly before cell balancing / reduction of charging rate starts).
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Using 12.6 KW battery capacity is probably not really accurate because I doubt that we can actually use all the rated capacity. I don't know exactly what voltage the individual cells are charged to. I would assume around 4.15v or somewhere above 116v pack voltage. Does anyone know what the individual cell voltage is when the BMS cuts power? I would guess around 3.4 based on other EVs I have had. To get the rated 12.6 KW capacity the cells would have to be discharged to 3.0v usually. This is speculation on my part not having the actual cell specs. If you recalculate using a lower capacity will the calculated SOC be closer to the displayed SOC. My 2020 SR/S came with firmware 17 installed and now I am using 19 and I see no difference in SOC behavior but then I don't usually watch the bike charge. I do notice that the dash will display 100% SOC around the time the charger starts to cut back the charge rate. I am in the US and charge at level 2 stations at 5.8 KW (displayed) and if I get back to the bike before the charge completes I just unplug at 100% SOC displayed because letting it go till it shuts off doesn't get me much more range compared to the time it takes. It's probably at 98 % actual capacity so what the heck. My observation is that the SOC and miles to go functions work pretty well. It will never be perfect. As long as the bike doesn't shut down before the indicated SOC reaches zero % all is good. I plan my charge stops to have at least 20% left. I have never run it below 12 % and that was after 90 miles traveled when I changed my planned route to a slightly longer more scenic one. I was still showing 15 miles range left. Thanks for spending the time to record these interesting observations which help us to better understand how these wonderful bikes function.
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electrictwowheeler why do you doubt that the 12.6 kWh can be used?
According to the Zero website 12.6 is the Nominal capacity = the amount of usable energy.
Max capacity given by Zero is 14.4 kWh.
As expected on my side: If I use 10 kWh for example in my calculation for the total capcity, the gap gets bigger (not smaller). Must be, as the amount of kWh going in is the same, which makes a bigger portion of a lesser capacity.
You are right, normally it doesn't bother me, if I got 10% more or less. But there ARE situations, where I need the full capacity. Therefore I want to know what's really up in that case ...
If I see the display with 100% but actually it is only 84 or 89% - that matters on occasions ...
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electrictwowheeler why do you doubt that the 12.6 kWh can be used?
Because the battery, as listed by the bike, is 114 Amp hours (Ah). Multiply that by the nominal voltage on a Zero (102vdc).
11,628 Watt hours, or 11.6kWh. That's why.
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If you let the bike charge till it shuts off on it's own you will get the maximum capacity. If you unplug it when the SOC first reaches 100% but before it shuts itself off you will have a little less. Knowing how far you can ride is another story. So many variables can affect range. I don't claim to understand your calculations as I am more of a hands on type of person. Maybe the best way to determine your range is to just ride the bike and see how far it goes in different conditions.
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If you unplug it when the SOC first reaches 100% but before it shuts itself off you will have a little less. [...]
So many variables can affect range. [...]
Maybe the best way to determine your range is to just ride the bike and see how far it goes in different conditions.
I rode the bike for >20'000 km - so - I think I got quite good an idea how far it goes in different conditions (temperature, topography, wind, riding mode, riding style, dry/wet road, ...)
It was my observation, that if I unplug just when the display reaches 100% I got not a little less (as you and 'everybody' states) but quite a bit more than a little less.
That's why I took the time to observe/document closely and tried to calculate.
My calculations seem to confirm my experience.
Also: If Morgan Vetter is right (and I have no doubt he is), the calculated gap is even bigger.
May be, it's only my SR/F ... I can't say.
Also, I can't say if I did things (method, calculations*) correctly; I'm no technitian / engineer but a nurse - so - I'm walking on unfamiliar turf here ...
* I have uploaded the Excel-file to the fb-group "Zero Motorcycles Owners Group". I think in this forum it is not possible to upload Excel-files.
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Because the battery, as listed by the bike, is 114 Amp hours (Ah). Multiply that by the nominal voltage on a Zero (102vdc).
11,628 Watt hours, or 11.6kWh. That's why.
Thanks Morgan.
As written in my last answer: I'm no technitian / engineer but a nurse ...
Where would I find the 114 Ah and nominal voltage? (However, first I have to dive into the matter of battery technology in order to understand the matter. In ac I know that I have do multiply voltage by amps to get power (is power the correct physical term? In German = Leistung))
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. In ac I know that I have do multiply voltage by amps to get power (is power the correct physical term? In German = Leistung))
Yes, watts (volts times amps in resistive loads) is power. In reactive loads it is called "apparent power" but is really no power at all. It's power wasted as it is reflected back to the source. Apparent power cannot power things, but it can destroy transformers by causing them to overheat by the reflected power.
AC & DC makes no difference with watts. But "apparent power" will only happen with AC.
Amps is current.
Voltage is the pressure that causes the current flow through a load.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Zero does some things that I question. They also do some things very wisely that I support. Let's talk quickly about their battery cells and how they use them.
As a general rule batteries have a minimum and maximum voltage in which they like to operate. In the case of these Lithium pouch cells made by Farasis they have the following characteristics:
32Ah cells, 3.65vdc nominal. Max 4.2vdc, min 3.4vdc
Those are the values if you want to stress the cells; there's a little more wiggle room if you want to delve lower into the pack. Zero engineers, however, decided they wanted to prioritize pack longevity. As such they decided to take a percentage off the top end of the battery max voltage and reduce it so the cells stay healthier, longer. We know that Zero batteries run in a configuration of 28S meaning 28 cells in series, and we know the max voltage is 116.4vdc.
116.4/28=4.157vdc meaning instead of letting the cells go all the way to 4.2vdc, Zero stops it at 4.157. You can also use this formula to detect the bottom end of the pack. 95/28=3.39vdc per cell which is well within the acceptable realm of the batteries.
The end result with the capping means they are ~28.5Ah cells as recognized by the bikes. Each "short brick" is made up of 28 cells with a 28.5Ah rating. 4 of them together make a Monolith that is 114Ah which is the current pack Zero uses.
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Zero engineers, however, decided they wanted to prioritize pack longevity.
That's because they have a five year warranty on their batteries. Does any other motorcycle have a five year warranty on their batteries?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Zero engineers, however, decided they wanted to prioritize pack longevity.
That's because they have a five year warranty on their batteries. Does any other motorcycle have a five year warranty on their batteries?
-Don- Reno, NV
Based upon my Zero ownership experience they could probably get away with a 10-year warranty on their batteries. :)
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Based upon my Zero ownership experience they could probably get away with a 10-year warranty on their batteries. :)
My DS 6.5 KWH battery crapped out in three years. Good news, it now has a 7.2KWH at no cost to me.
And what a nice difference in range. Noticeably better than when the bike was new.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I just sold my 2013 Brammo Empulse standard model with 27,000 miles on it. It also charged to 4.15 per cell and max discharge voltage was 3.4v. It had a 9.3 KW nominal pack and based on the range compared to the range people were getting when they were new I estimated the actual capacity at around 7 KWH so that is 75% after 8 years and 27,000 miles. So it seems possible that the Zero battery with proper care could still be close to 80% after 10 years depending on mileage. That is what I'm hoping with my SR/S. In 10 years I'll be 80 yo and need to get a trike anyway, ha ha
Back to the subject. It appears from enaefs data that at the higher charge rate the time from when the SOC read 100% till the charge ended was 27 minutes but at the lower rate at home was only 14 minutes. When I charge at 5.8 KW it is about 10 minutes so it looks like the SOC while charging is less accurate with higher charge rates. So it would be more of a concern for him than me. Do you suppose the bike just shows 100% SOC while charging when the voltage first reaches 116.4? That is how it has always appeared to me but I have no way to check the actual voltage. That would be a normal CC/CV charge. That would mean that it is more accurate when charging at lower rates and less accurate at higher rates.
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Thanks a lot Morgan and DonTom for your explanations.
Morgan, you wrote that the basic Farasis cell characteristics (without capping) are 32Ah cells.
When you use the term 'cell' here, I guess you actually meant 32Ah 'short brick' (a term you used later in the post), consisting of 28 smaller cells?
Do I understand correctly, that the battery consists of 4 short bricks, each one with 28 cells. In total therefore 112 cells?
Any idea on which ground Zero gives a nominal capacity of 12.6 kWh in their information?
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Thanks a lot Morgan and DonTom for your explanations.
Morgan, you wrote that the basic Farasis cell characteristics (without capping) are 32Ah cells.
When you use the term 'cell' here, I guess you actually meant 32Ah 'short brick' (a term you used later in the post), consisting of 28 smaller cells?
Do I understand correctly, that the battery consists of 4 short bricks, each one with 28 cells. In total therefore 112 cells?
Any idea on which ground Zero gives a nominal capacity of 12.6 kWh in their information?
Each cell is 32Ah. When you series cells together the voltage goes up but the Ah capacity remains the same. A single cell has a nominal voltage of 3.65vdc with a 32Ah capacity. 3.65 x 32 = 116.8Wh
If you had two cells and ran them together in parallel it would be a pack that is 3.65vdc with a 64Ah capacity. 3.65 x 64 = 233.6Wh
If you had two cells and ran them together IN SERIES it would be a pack that is 7.3vdc with a 32Ah capacity. 7.3 x 32 = 233.6Wh. The exact same amount of energy.
Therefore each pack of 28 cells in series gives you a nominal voltage of 102.2vdc with a capacity of 32Ah. The capacity number doesn't change until you start adding parallel packs. As to the answer of why Zero's numbers are listed the way they are, here's some light reading. (https://www.electric.motorcycles/post/how-oems-calculate-battery-capacity-and-why-it-s-not-totally-their-fault-they-are-wrong)
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Thanks, Morgan !!! ;D
So much when a nurse starts thinking about EV-Batteries ... :-\
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enaef
Now that we know the actual usable capacity is 11.6 KWH if we add up the bits from when the dash indicates 100% SOC to the charger shutdown I get 1.41 KWH. Knowing that you actually must put in a little more power to charge the battery than you can get out if we assume a charge efficiency of 90% that would be 1.41X0.9=1.27. If we subtract that from the actual KWH of 11.6 we get 11.6-1.27=10.33. That would be the actual capacity in KWH when the indicated SOC reads 100% according to your data. To make that a percentage we figure 10.33 divided by 11.6 and come up with .89 or 89% so your data is showing 88.8% at that point. Pretty close!
I did the same calculation for my SR/S with 6K charger. It ends the charge 6 minutes after the indicated SOC reaches 100% and adds approximately 0.3 KWH in that last 6 minutes so the actual available capacity would be 97%. So if I unplug at an indicated 100% SOC I am 3% short of the full available capacity but you would be 11% short. Certainly something to consider when making long runs without intermediate charge points available.
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At some point you need to factor in cell balancing which is often done by burning off excess juice with resistance. If you were fairly out of balance and you let it do a full charge you may show some extra power consumed in the balancing process.
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That is true, balancing can use a little power but if everything is working right the cells will need very little balancing. I've run my Vectrix on Chevy Volt cells for 4,000 miles without a BMS or any kind of cell balancing at all, just checking the voltage once in a while and they are still balanced. We don't need much accuracy to get a rough idea of how accurate the displayed SOC is while charging. If we were doing a scientific test in a lab we would certainly have to factor that in. If we were just unplugging the bike at an SOC below where balancing takes place then we could disregard it.
I had another thought though. Rather than trying to figure out the relationship between indicated and actual SOC we could set the charge target to the SOC we need and just let the bike do the math for us.(Yes I am lazy) I'm pretty sure the charge goes through the constant voltage stage when you do that so it would be accurate. I don't know that there is any balancing happening when we charge to an SOC less than 100%. Anyone know ? The Constant Voltage stage is not really a balancing stage as such, even though that is when the balancing might be happening. Even with no balancers at all the charger will still have to taper down the power so that the cell voltages don't go above the max charge voltage. If you cut off the charge at 116.4v the pack will not be charged fully. If you just keep pumping in the amps you will ruin your battery.
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I have mentioned this before, but when I watch my Kill A Watt meter, after my 2018 Zero S with PT reaches 100% SOC, the charger is sucking up just under 13 amps from my 120V wall outlet. Then it will shut down without any tapering and with no indication of balancing the cells. When I check cell balance with the Zero app, they are all balanced at around 2 or 3 mV at 100% SOC. So I guess the cells somehow become balanced while being bulk charged. I might also add that when the charger shuts off voltage shows as being 115V on the Zero app.
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Anyone know ?
I read somewhere that balancing usually starts at around 97% SOC and ends when it is done charging. I am not sure if that was for Zero or something else, but I assume it is usually the same 97%.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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In an earlier firmware, it was observed that one of the reasons that target mode in the Gen 3 bikes was going long was because it went into balancing mode as it approached the target.
-Crissa
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97 % seems reasonable because at least on level 2 charging that is about the time when the charge starts to taper so that would be when the voltage reaches its max.
I watched my bike finish charging to 100% today on 120v and like Richard says it did not taper off. Well maybe a tiny bit from 13.4 amps to 13 amps AC from my WattsUp meter but essentially flat. The KW reading on the dash went from 1.3KW to 1.2KW. I did notice that the charge ended well after 100% SOC was reached. I didn't time it but would guess 20 minutes. I don't think there would be any actual indication of when cell balancing starts. On level 2 charging the amps on the dash goes from like 55 to 16 at which time the charger shuts off. Maybe 13 amps on 120v is so low that no tapering is needed.
If the cells balanced at target SOCs of less than 100% that would mean that for each different SOC the balancing would have to start at a different voltage. The choices are every 5 percentage points starting with 5 and going to 100 so I think that is 19 different settings. I don't know that the balancing circuitry is that sophisticated but it could be. The next time I have occasion to speak with a tech rep I'll try to remember to ask .
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FST bikes do taper, but not really if you're charging at 1.3kW. Charging at 3, 6, or 12kW should make it more obvious.
As I understand it, it tapers based on battery temp and pack/cell voltage. The BMS constantly sets a max input current, and the chargers respect it. Charging at higher powers should taper earlier, and if the temp is higher it'll taper harder.
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FST bikes do taper, but not really if you're charging at 1.3kW. Chargint at 3, 6, or 12kW should make it more obvious.
^ That. I can see the effect when I charge at 6 kW. It starts somehwere north of 95%. Bikes with 12 kW charging capability probably start to taper earlier.
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I can confirm, that my SR/F tapers towards reaching the charging goal.
My dealer confirmed it is cell balancing. I guess he got the answer from Zero.
At the moment my SR/F anyway also has a separate problem with showing the correct SoC when I set a target.
Just did it a few minutes ago: Goal set to 75%, after automatically finishing the charge (including balancing) SoC shows 95%. Tomorrow it will show 76 or 75% according to my experience the last times ....
So, at the moment my confindence in the indicated SoC is not that good ...
- Magic Charging
- Seemingly overshooting charging goals (which in the end probably is not, but it seems)
- Incorrect indicated SoC (too high) while charging
May be, second and third problems are related. Or all three are.
The dealer asked me to show up in order to download 'things' from the bike ...
This will probably happen at Friday.
I'm happy with how the bike runs. I'm not so happy about the things mentioned above and about the App however ...
At least: propper running of the bike counts most, ofcourse. But there is room for improvement for FW and App ...
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Interesting. I usually set the charge target to 80% and charge overnight at my shop which is a couple of miles from my home so I never see it just after it has shut off. The next day it's 80 or 81%. I'll try to do it while I can watch. Big difference from 75% to 95%! What happens if you ride the bike right after it shuts off reading 95%. Would the SOC drop quickly back to where it is supposed to be at 75%?
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Oh, I forgot that you are charging at a much higher rate than I am here in the US with only 120v AC available at home. The SOC seems much more accurate with the lower charge rates I am using. I read in a post about DIY installation of the Charge tank on the SR/F that the Firmware is not changed. You would think that bikes sold in countries with 220V mains voltage would require different firmware for SOC calculation but that does not seem the case. I'll try to watch the SOC behavior when a charge target is set while charging on 220V. I have never done that because when charging on the road I want as high an SOC as I can get in the time I have to charge. Usually while having lunch so I never set a target SOC while charging during a ride.
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I got a chance to charge from 56% to a set charge target of 80% at a level 2 charge station so a charge rate of around 55 amps. The charge started to taper at 82% and the SOC reached 87% when it shut itself off. So definitely over shooting the set target. I rode 8 miles home at like 50 mph and the SOC was at 80% which seemed normal. It didn't drop rapidly. The next day the SOC had dropped to 77%. So my bike acts the same as yours but is not as far off. Could the effect just be exaggerated by your increased charging rate? According to your Data you charge at home at over 9 KW, I am charging at home at 1.3KW. Do you get the SOC errors if you drastically reduce the charge rate? It will be interesting to see what Zero says. For me, charging at my lower rate the indicated SOC seems perfectly acceptable as long as I understand how it reacts. Yes, room for improvement but the SOC is not really very easy to calculate with so many variables.
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Except it is, because my Tesla and my gf's Chevy Bolt do exactly that. Hell, even my phone (ok, it always charges to 100%) doesn't lose SoC just like that.
With the other bugs in the firmware I'll have to assume that the programmers just did a bad job, which on the other hand means that there is a chance that they will eventually get it right.
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Yeah my Zero S always had perfect SoC representation. Did 26000 km with it in a bit over a year. Never had SoC jumps, it was always predictable (I could predict within 1% what my SoC usage would be at the end of a trip). Regularly charged at 6kw and 7.3 (with OBC charger). Charging time estimates where spot on. So they had it perfect there.
Now it's just a bit of a joke... All numbers are just wildly inaccurate. Everything you see on the dash can't be trusted, except the clock, temp. and speedo.
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When charging on level 2 at 5.8KW the SOC reaches 100% 6 minutes before the charger shuts down on my bike. That is about 2 or 3 % over actual SOC if I unplugged at that point. The speedometer and odometer consistently over read by 4% as compared to my GPS. So we should add the speedometer to the category of wildly over reading instrumentation. That only leaves the temp and clock.
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When charging on level 2 at 5.8KW the SOC reaches 100% 6 minutes before the charger shuts down on my bike. That is about 2 or 3 % over actual SOC if I unplugged at that point. The speedometer and odometer consistently over read by 4% as compared to my GPS. So we should add the speedometer to the category of wildly over reading instrumentation. That only leaves the temp and clock.
The motor temperature gauge of my Zero seems to read about 20 degrees high, after parked in my garage all night, compared with the thermometer in my garage. The clock on my bike's display runs fast, to the tune of about 2 minutes per month. So that should about cover just about everything. ;)
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- Magic Charging
- Seemingly overshooting charging goals (which in the end probably is not, but it seems)
- Incorrect indicated SoC (too high) while charging
Now approaching 28'000 km on my SR/F with the original battery. Firmware V19 was installed during the 20'000 km service done in March 2021. Since May 2021, battery related problems are piling up (*). Before that, every was as good as Swiss chocolates, or Belgian beers.
On top of the above three I am adding:
- No more notifications from the app. Fortunately I can still obtain the SoC information on my phone.
- My range estimate is at least 100 km shorter than it was before. It does go down a little slower than usual, but for a full charge I am still short of about 50-100 km from what I had last summer.
+ What didn't change is charging, that still mostly works just like it did last summer, 2.9 kW at home/work, 5.8 kW elsewhere.
According to Zero's manual, I should not notice any range reduction before about 4-5 years or 300'000 km, so if my battery is still fine, what isn't?
(*)
- [SR/F] Strongly intermittent engine braking when driving downhill (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11298.msg106420#msg106420)
- Zero SR/F won't charge (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11082.msg103820#msg103820)
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According to Zero's manual, I should not notice any range reduction before about 4-5 years or 300'000 km, so if my battery is still fine, what isn't?
Unfortunately that's not how it works. Batteries usually lose a bit of capacity right at the beginning, then continue to lose capacity at a low rate. When they start losing more capacity again quickly they're about to die.
The manual also states that the figures apply to city driving where you don't usually stress the battery.
There are other factors that will affect battery life. Generally speaking you should avoid a high or low state of charge. It's okay as long as you don't let the battery sit at 100% state of charge or at almost empty. Winter driving shouldn't be an issue for a motorcycle but driving like a maniac in hot weather and recharging the battery while it's hot should also be avoided where possible.
There's a lot more to battery life, but the bottom line is that the battery won't stay at full capacity for 300.000 km and then fail all out of a sudden. Degradation happens gradually.
Given the relatively high charge/discharge rates and the fact that the battery isn't liquid cooled I would expect about 1000 to 1200 full charge cycles in real-world conditions. Maybe a bit more with a power tank equipped.
So if you can do 160 km with a fully charged battery, that would translate to 160,000 to 192,000 km of battery life.
The figures Zero states in the manual are not actually wrong, but I doubt that anyone driving a SR/F would exclusively drive in the city at 50 kph max.
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Should also probably take a big spoonful of realism and think about the last time you saw a bike with more than 30,000 miles on the clock still being ridden.
Cas :)
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Should also probably take a big spoonful of realism and think about the last time you saw a bike with more than 30,000 miles on the clock still being ridden.
Cas :)
Hi there. I just crossed over 31,000 miles on my Energica.
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You know you're rare though, don't you? I do high mileage too - 5k a year or so these days - but my bikes are gone by 20k miles, leaving impoverished wastrels to pick them up and run them finally into the ground.
Right now there are 2800 Hondas for sale in the UK through Autotrader with a mileage in the ad, and 2500 of them are under 30k miles - the vast majority. After that it just crawls up a few bikes at a time at every 10k increment.
Cas :)
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Electric bikes can do high miles. I'm guessing it's high years they're less good at. Tho mine is going strong.
-Crissa
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Just in case it sounded as if I meant to say that 160,000 - 192,000 km is a low number: that's not what I meant to say. In fact it's more than I've ever seen on a used motorcycle. My point was that degradation happens gradually.
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Yes, exactly - people worry a hell of a lot about EV longevity but in the context of motorcycles as a whole it is obviously irrelevant to about 90% of the market. And that's just to 30,000 miles. It's one of those things like fretting over short range that people have a massive hangup about but if they actually analysed their riding they'll actually do 99% of their miles within 30 miles of home, etc.
Cas :)
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My son-in-law has 125K miles on his (my old) 1986 Honda VFR700FII. My daughter has about the same number of kilometers on her 1981 BMW R65LS. I usually put about 50K miles on my bikes before either trading them in on a new model or giving them to my daughter.
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You're not typical, Richard.
-Crissa
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You're not typical, Richard.
-Crissa
Well, the older I get the more typical I become. ::)
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Should also probably take a big spoonful of realism and think about the last time you saw a bike with more than 30,000 miles on the clock still being ridden.
Cas :)
How about ten times that, 300,000 miles? I bought my 1971 BMW new, $1,845.00. May 1971. Used the money I could not spend in the jungles of Vietnam.
Here is its lic plate: (says Vietnam-Infantry to those who have been in the army):
(https://u.cubeupload.com/DonTom/V11Bplate.jpg)
It was the only vehicle I had for many years, rain or shine. It has been to every state in the west from here to Texas.
It now runs BETTER than it did when new. Has some performance mods. Electronic ignition, dual plugs per cylinder, Mikuni Carbs so I cannot say it's in original condition.
I normally keep all my vehicles until they need to be junked. I never sell any. I only junk them. But that old BMW will probably never become junk. Still easy to get parts for and such in one way or another.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Should also probably take a big spoonful of realism and think about the last time you saw a bike with more than 30,000 miles on the clock still being ridden.
Cas :)
I bought my SR/F with 3'700 km and started riding April 2020. Now I got ~28'500 km. I certainly hope the bike will run properly for some mor years ...
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So ... tonight I did a second approach:
I measured the energy, going into my SR/F after first time showing 100% SoC, but still charging.
Until the bike shut down on its own, 1.8 kWh went in.
I'd be interested, how much loss is to be expected just by AC/DC-conversion, and how much by balancing due to 'by burning off excess juice with resistance' (according to MVetter).
These two factors not taking into account it would mean, that, when my SR/F shows 100% SoC the first time, it actually only has
84% SoC - calculated with 11.6 kWh nominal capacity
86% SoC - calculated with 12.6 kWh nominal capacity.
That's pretty close to what I calculated with my first approach.
For the interested:
Up to the first time showing 100% SoC I charged 3 Phase 16 Amps 230V.
After that I changed to 1 Phase 16 Amps 230V (because my 'juice-o-meter' only works with 1 Phase).
What I still have to do, is, to stop charging the first time 100% SoC is on the display, and to look the next day, if the SoC is still the same.
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Should also probably take a big spoonful of realism and think about the last time you saw a bike with more than 30,000 miles on the clock still being ridden.
Cas :)
63k miles on my 2016 Zero DSR & 144k miles on my 2003 BMW RT1150
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It should probably be noted at this point that 450 people aren't going to pipe up on this forum and say "Only 2300 miles on my R1 here!"
Cas :)
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What I still have to do, is, to stop charging the first time 100% SoC is on the display, and to look the next day, if the SoC is still the same.
That is also done now:
I Charged until first time showing 100% SoC. Stopped charging and left the bike a night allone. This morning SoC showed 89%.
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https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11411.0
... been there