ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NervEasy on July 03, 2021, 10:39:41 PM
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So, I would like to pen down my not so stellar experiences with my second Zero motorcycle, a 2020 Zero SR/S premium with LED blinkers, top box and side boxes.
At the end of march this year I traded in my 2019 Zero S (with 26000kms) for a showroom SR/S. I hadn’t had any major issues with my S and the dealer always went one step beyond to help when something had to be done.
The SR/S had 2200km on the clock and 90% of those km where from the dealer himself as he used the bike to commute. The condition was flawless and I had several testrides.
The first few days of ownership however where strange. The dealer said prior to me collecting the bike he performed the firmware upgrade to V19.
I had really (really) low range comparing to my S. Some trips where my S would lose 10% soc the SR/S would lose 17-22%. Also the “magic charging issue was very (!) present.
I tried a bunch of things but found that the only thing having an impact was draining the bike to 0% and recharging it fully, several times. This would bring the range up to an acceptable standard. Still not like my S but acceptable. The magic charging was also manageable with 2-4% recharge between stops.
The cellular connectivity was also not working and I could not activate it on the bike. I notified my dealer and he said Zero would need to connect to the bike to fix this. I asked for an appointment to do this.
As it was still cold in the mornings in April I sometimes experienced a 12V error on startup. The bike would hesitate on key-on and shut off, then restart automatically and throw the 12 V error. I notified my dealer and asked for a fix. I deduced this problem would only occur when the temperature outside was lower than 7degrees C and when my heated grips where on.
So i rode for about 3-4 weeks waiting for an appointment with Zero (seemed to be really difficult to plan that…) when suddenly the front brakes rapidly deteriorated. They started pulsing heavily when used. At this moment I had 3000km of my own on the bike. I notified my dealer and asked for a fix.
A week later I got the dreaded 43 error when riding through rain. I notified my dealer and two days later he called me back saying Zero wants to pick up my bike and ship it to the Zero HQ in Holland (I live in Belgium). I was a bit taken aback by this but after the dealer explained to me that it would take 1 to 2 weeks tops and all my issues would be resolved, and a loaner bike would be arranged I said ok.
So one week passes, two weeks pass, three weeks pass… I called Zero and asked what was happening with my bike. There seemed to be several miscommunications. It took a lot of calling with my dealer and Zero HQ to finally get them to fix my bike and send it back after one month and a week.
When i got there to collect my bike I noticed a lot of scratches on the swingarm, mismatched bolts, 5 loose bolts on the seat plastics, torn battery sleeve, big scratch on the right passenger handhold and some more minor sloppy things. Also the dealer said they didn’t do anything with the 12 V battery despite the stored errors as they didn’t experience any problems. Yeah duh… only when it was cold I had problems and my bike had been gone during a major heatwave.
The brakes, cellular connection and error 43 seemed fixed though.
So despite mentioning the cosmetic damage to my dealer I started riding my new bike again.
Only to notice the dreaded magic charging and shitty range where back, with a vengeance. No problem, I thought I can fix this with going to 0% and charging back up. But no dice, it had the opposite effect. Worse range, more magic charging. I tried draining and charging another 2 times but no luck.
I downloaded mbb and bms log with the app and send them to the dealer and notifying him of my battery problems. 2 days later he calls me and ge said that Zero can’t do anything the these logs (?). They need to be connected to the bike to make any assessment. He also said that my bike received a firmware update when it was at their HQ and that the range and soc needed to be calibrated. I should run the bike to 0% and recharge it he said. That’s when I told him my bike was at V19 (latedt firmware) since I bought it and I already tried the 0% trick multiple times… So I have no clue how they can update a fully up to date bike.
I have now brought the bike to the dealer again (one week since it came back from Holland) so Zero can connect to it next week during businesses hours. I will update below.
The dealer tried reupdating V19 (third time now…) saying it maybe could fix things, it didn’t. I showed him how to get a Pack Capacity reading using the Zero software by using the bms and bms interface commands.
My pack capacity has been hovering arround 85 Ah since I got it back. When the bike left for holland it was at 104Ah.
Is it me or should Zero be doing a lot more for me at this point?
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There is no *fix* for magic charging until Zero themselves fix it. Your battery should list at 114AH. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but the issues will never be dealt with until people are loud enough for Zero to hear them.
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I had really (really) low range comparing to my S. Some trips where my S would lose 10% soc the SR/S would lose 17-22%. Also the “magic charging issue was very (!) present.
I tried a bunch of things but found that the only thing having an impact was draining the bike to 0% and recharging it fully, several times. This would bring the range up to an acceptable standard. Still not like my S but acceptable. The magic charging was also manageable with 2-4% recharge between stops.
I assume the deep discharging and recharging had a lot more effect on your SOC calibration than it did your accrual range. The higher SOC number is only making you feel better, probably not giving you more range.
I don't recall hearing the term "magic charging" before, but I think I have seen it, if it means you shut down the bike at 95% SOC but when you turn it on a half hour later, with no more charging, it then says 99 or 100% SOC. Is that what "magic charging" means?
-Don- Reno, NV
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There is no *fix* for magic charging until Zero themselves fix it. Your battery should list at 114AH. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but the issues will never be dealt with until people are loud enough for Zero to hear them.
I know there is not a fix for it at the moment. But there are definitely gradations of the problem. Some haven’t experienced it, hell the loaner bike did not have it. Before my bike went to the EU HQ it was perfectly usable. 2-4% magic charging is not a hige problem. And if you can improve it by going to 0%, that is at least a way to a useable bike. At the moment i have soc going 10- 19% up and down. That is not exactly useable… As a customer iI don’t know how I can get any louder but continuesly reporting all the problems I’m having (what I’m doing).
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I had really (really) low range comparing to my S. Some trips where my S would lose 10% soc the SR/S would lose 17-22%. Also the “magic charging issue was very (!) present.
I tried a bunch of things but found that the only thing having an impact was draining the bike to 0% and recharging it fully, several times. This would bring the range up to an acceptable standard. Still not like my S but acceptable. The magic charging was also manageable with 2-4% recharge between stops.
I assume the deep discharging and recharging had a lot more effect on your SOC calibration than it did your accrual range. The higher SOC number is only making you feel better, probably not giving you more range.
I don't recall hearing the term "magic charging" before, but I think I have seen it, if it means you shut down the bike at 95% SOC but when you turn it on a half hour later, with no more charging, it then says 99 or 100% SOC. Is that what "magic charging" means?
-Don- Reno, NV
Jup, but with reduced range and soc julps up and down for more than 10%
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I don't recall hearing the term "magic charging" before, but I think I have seen it, if it means you shut down the bike at 95% SOC but when you turn it on a half hour later, with no more charging, it then says 99 or 100% SOC. Is that what "magic charging" means?
It's a term Brandon and I coined last year.
https://youtu.be/CjIXCD2-CdU?t=764
See video at this precise timestamp.
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Jup, but with reduced range and soc julps up and down for more than 10%
I can understand the SOC % changing while not being charged, but I don't see how that number can effect your actual range.
Your KWH capacity is what it is regardless of what the SOC says.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yes, but the Zero firmware cripples the bike when the reckoned SOC drops below a certain level. Suspect it may also modulate the battery drain at several points of SOC too, as I've noticed definite differences in 20% intervals.
Still have not experienced this on my SR/F yet. However, my front brakes are now fuxx0red, as if badly warped after just 3000 miles - seems to happen to just about every SR/* bike so far. Going to email the dealer on Monday.
Cas :)
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Jup, but with reduced range and soc julps up and down for more than 10%
I can understand the SOC % changing while not being charged, but I don't see how that number can effect your actual range.
Your KWH capacity is what it is regardless of what the SOC says.
My bike thinks my pack capacity is 84Ah. So my range and soc plummet very fast. There is indeed a point where the bine goes into limp mode (under 10% soc). But when I shut the bike off for 10 min. It will magicly charge back to 25 % for example. And I can ride with full power again. This will happen several times.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My bike thinks my pack capacity is 84Ah. So my range and soc plummet very fast. There is indeed a point where the bike goes into limp mode (under 10% soc). But when I shut the bike off for 10 min. It will magically charge back to 25 % for example. And I can ride with full power again. This will happen several times.
IOW, the bike determines where it is by the SOC instead of the battery voltage.
Or does the battery voltage actually rise during those stops?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yes it uses the soc to determine the limp activate point. We do not know what rhe voltage does. This parameter is no longer shown in the app. I suspect it rises from sag. But the bike still thinks the pack is way smaller than it actually is. This also translates in very short charge times on the dash. But the bike than actually sits charging at full rate for about an extra hour when the dash shows 100%. And then without any meaningful balancing suddenly shuts down.
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Yes it uses the soc to determine the limp activate point. We do not know what rhe voltage does. This parameter is no longer shown in the app. I suspect it rises from sag. But the bike still thinks the pack is way smaller than it actually is. This also translates in very short charge times on the dash. But the bike than actually sits charging at full rate for about an extra hour when the dash shows 100%. And then without any meaningful balancing suddenly shuts down.
Is this bug only on the SR/F & SR/S?
I can remember when my DS and SR would "magic charge" on the high end above ~95% SOC when the bikes were new. I would ride about five miles from full charge and stop at a restaurant for breakfast when I was at ~95 SOC when I park. After breakfast, I turn the key on and I was back to 100% SOC.
They both stopped doing that, perhaps because of a new FW update, but I am not sure if that was why.
When my battery was crapping out on my DS, it "magic charged" at the low end, but not at the high end of the SOC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ok Don now imagine your bike showed 0% and refused to move. Then you turned the key off, walked away, and came back 30 minutes later and it showed 35% and would operate.
THAT is what people are experiencing.
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Ok Don now imagine your bike showed 0% and refused to move. Then you turned the key off, walked away, and came back 30 minutes later and it showed 35% and would operate.
THAT is what people are experiencing.
Yeah, I understand. That sounds like a rather serious bug. Does it happen on all models of the Zeros or only on the SR/F & SR/S?
FWIW, I had that happen on my DS when the battery was crapping out. However, I do not recall ever letting my charge get that low with good batteries. I get "range anxiety" very easily and normally recharge at 40% or so where possible.
So perhaps it does happen on all Zeros, it's just that I have only discharged my battery enough to see such, when it was crapping out.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Battery voltage can fluctuate over time. That's why SoC is a computed stat.
A few percent is normal; thirty is a miscalculation.
-Crissa
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Nothing like what has been discussed has ever happened to my 2018 S. And I have never experienced any sort of "magic charging" or other reported issues of any kind (other than the minor issue of the charging light not going out when SOC reaches 100% and the charger is unplugged). Since it was apparently not a issue with the legacy models, why would it appear on the new platforms? It sounds like someone has screwed the MMB or BMS programs. Could Zero have hired a consultant to "update" there operating systems?
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It's just a plain old stupid bug, but it's quite a serious one, and Zero have done nothing about it nor even acknowledged it, which is disappointing.
Cas :)
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I had a related experience . I bought an SR/S demo with 400 miles on it a couple of months ago. Everything worked fine with firmware 17 installed. At around 2000 miles the bike wanted me to upgrade the firmware so I did and a few minutes after the upgrade completed I turned it on because I was going on a ride with friends but the SOC showed as only a few % but the bike was fully charged. I could ride it but it would only go about 20 mph so I shut it off and called my friends to cancel. 20 minutes later I turned it on and it was at 20% so I rode a couple of miles to a level 2 charger and tried charging but got an error code. I forget which one but the bike would not go. So I was stuck at the charge station but after a few key cycles it was showing something like 40% and I rode it home. I then rode 60 miles to my friends and charged on a 220v tesla charger with Tesla tap and everything was back to normal and now at 4500 miles all is still working normally so it straightened itself out. I do notice that the SOC will increase a couple of percentage points if the temp is rising while it is parked but I always assumed that was just because the battery was warming up and the voltage increased a bit which is normal I think.
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For me it's constant and it get's worse. I could get it to recalculate when driving to empty and fully recharging. But now since it returned from EU HQ that doesn't even work... It just gets worse.
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That is horrible! I am wondering why some bikes do this and others don't? You would think a firmware bug would affect all bikes equally. Hope you can get this straightened out!
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Bugs can leave stuff in persistent memory, which means that no two bike's firmware is completely identical...
-Crissa
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There is no *fix* for magic charging until Zero themselves fix it. Your battery should list at 114AH. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but the issues will never be dealt with until people are loud enough for Zero to hear them.
How about magic discharging? That happened to me today on my Zero DS.
I live on the very top of a hill. Since nobody was behind me, I coasted all the way down the hill (0.7 mile) starting at 55 SOC. I had full regen all the way down the hill and my display changed to 54 SOC by the time I got to the bottom of the hill, charging via regen the entire way.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That sucks they scored your bike up. What I do if I ever have to leave a bike is make a video of it with my phone, right there outside the service bay, a sort of visual scan. And I explain to that them I don't mean to be rude but I've had bad experiences in the past, and this is my way of making sure there is evidence that my bike was damaged in the shop. It puts them on notice. I do the same thing when I bring in a wheel to have a new tire mounted. Its not just the video, its them SEEING you make the video.
Personally it doesn't bother me that the charge level rises a bit after the bike is used... I just assumed all the batteries have to level up somewhat.
As for the disks I had the same miserable experience and had to replace both of them. Here's the thread in case you are interested. Check the markings on the disk in particular and see if you have this version of them.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10895.0
EDIT: Nm you posted in that thread so you have already seen it. I'll leave this here in case anyone is curious.
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That sucks they scored your bike up. What I do if I ever have to leave a bike is make a video of it with my phone, right there outside the service bay, a sort of visual scan. And I explain to that them I don't mean to be rude but I've had bad experiences in the past, and this is my way of making sure there is evidence that my bike was damaged in the shop. It puts them on notice. I do the same thing when I bring in a wheel to have a new tire mounted. Its not just the video, its them SEEING you make the video.
Smart! ;)
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Personally it doesn't bother me that the charge level rises a bit after the bike is used...
it doesn't bother you to have to wait another 30 minutes before you can ride it again?
-Don- Reno, NV
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it doesn't bother you to have to wait another 30 minutes before you can ride it again?
Sounds like you're describing different things.
-Crissa
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Sounds like you're describing different things.
-Crissa
See starting around 1430. 1430 here in this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjIXCD2-CdU&t=764s)
You have to wait for the "magic charge" when the SOC is low.
Not much different than needing a charge, but you do it without chargers, as it is "magic".
Anyway, that's my understanding.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That sucks they scored your bike up. What I do if I ever have to leave a bike is make a video of it with my phone, right there outside the service bay, a sort of visual scan. And I explain to that them I don't mean to be rude but I've had bad experiences in the past, and this is my way of making sure there is evidence that my bike was damaged in the shop. It puts them on notice. I do the same thing when I bring in a wheel to have a new tire mounted. Its not just the video, its them SEEING you make the video.
Smart! ;)
Yeah, I made pictures of all angles before it left and used these pictures to show it got damaged. Dealer said that there was nothing he could do to fix the paint missing on the swingarm but use some touch up paint. The passengers handle will be replaced but the replacement part that Zero send the dealer was banged up worse than mine last week... So yeah...
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That sucks they scored your bike up. What I do if I ever have to leave a bike is make a video of it with my phone, right there outside the service bay, a sort of visual scan. And I explain to that them I don't mean to be rude but I've had bad experiences in the past, and this is my way of making sure there is evidence that my bike was damaged in the shop. It puts them on notice. I do the same thing when I bring in a wheel to have a new tire mounted. Its not just the video, its them SEEING you make the video.
Smart! ;)
Your understanding is correct.
At this point my bike is at the dealer since Saturday. Officially I haven't heard anything... I wonder what is so difficult and time consuming about diagnosing this. As a customer I should just get a replacement battery or BMS so I can use my 3 month old purchase... Why do I need to wait until they can diagnose the problem. Why not fix it first and then diagnose/analyse the pack/bms on a workbench without the customer needing to wait?
Yeah, I made pictures of all angles before it left and used these pictures to show it got damaged. Dealer said that there was nothing he could do to fix the paint missing on the swingarm but use some touch up paint. The passengers handle will be replaced but the replacement part that Zero send the dealer was banged up worse than mine last week... So yeah...
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With the magic charging issue, along with cannot charge when hot, along with the poor range when cold and all the other hassles with electric bikes during a trip, I think this guy has it right. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9279.0)
Makes me wonder why we like electric motorcycles. Do we enjoy all these hassles compared to ICE bikes or what?
-Don- Reno, NV
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With the magic charging issue, along with cannot charge when hot, along with the poor range when cold and all the other hassles with electric bikes during a trip, I think this guy has it right. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9279.0)
Makes me wonder why we like electric motorcycles. Do we enjoy all these hassles compared to ICE bikes or what?
-Don- Reno, NV
Well, ICE vehicles have had about 120 years to work their bugs out. ;)
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Well, ICE vehicles have had about 120 years to work their bugs out. ;)
First EV was designed in around 1832, that is 190 years to work the bugs out of EVs. :)
Yeah, EVs were here well before ICE vehicles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Sounds like you're describing different things.
See starting around 1430.
Yes, sounds like you're describing different things. Next time, don't reply to me.
SoC is a synthetic function result, and so shifts around as the cells rest. So some variance is normal. That video shows a bug from a specific firmware version, which is not normal.
-Crissa
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As a follow up to my previous post:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/4087851844617326/
Yesterday morning I picked up my bike from the dealer. He called me before to tell me it was fixed.
At this point I can only write down what my dealer said has happened.
I showed my dealer how to get a pack capacity readout from the bike with their tools. He did the same for an SR/S he had on the showroom floor. My bike was 85Ah and the showroom model was 112Ah. He send these screenshots to Zero EU HQ.
They said they are nothing with these numbers. They didn’t need them it seems.
Zero asked my dealer to remove the front plate of the battery so he could access the BMS board.
Zero then flashed a firmware on the board that had more calculations per second than the standard firmware. This so they would have more info from a testride. After this flash the estimated range had already increased significantly.
The dealer then went for a testride (highway/city).
The range and SoC where already a lot beter afterwards.
Zero then flashed the normal software back onto the BMS. The dealer then went on another testride and the range and SoC where still good.
Now I have the bike and I have already ridden 250 km.
SoC drops dramatically slower and the range estimate has never been this good…
It still sometimes magic charges, but a lot less: 1-2%.
Charging is also back to normal. Times are ok again and it tapers 5-10 minutes when at 100% before shutting down.
I hope this will stay this way as it seems a completely different bike.
The replacements for the damaged part have not yet arrived so that will be for a later date.
I asked my dealer via e-mail if Zero has disclosed a reason for the effed up behavior my bike was exhibiting but haven’t heard back yet.
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thats nice to read. the 1-2% adjustment is what I see on my 2018 SR with a very healthy pack so I wouldnt be too bothered.
did you have to pay anything in this adventure ?
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I haven’t had to pay anything to ZERO at the moment. I have however paid a lot of gas in the meantime :) and also a lot of things (brake pads, rotors, brakecleaner, etc) that I hope would have fixed some issues. And My swingarm damage cannot be repaired says my dealer, only the passenger grip will be replaced (it is taking it’s sweet time though).
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1-2% isn't magic, it's normal. SoC isn't some hard calculation, it's an estimate. The battery's temperature and recent draw will affect measurements and make it hard for the bike to tell.
But it sounds like I said, they cleared out some software variable that wasn't getting flushed and was convincing your bike was less capable than it should have been.
-Crissa
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With my 2014 S Zero I would sometimes see a 1 or 2% drop in SOC after coming to a stop, turning off the ignition switch and then turning it back on. However the SOC meter of my 2018 S is very stable and does not exhibit any change, either up or down, after stopping and then restarting. :)
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I wanted to give an update to my 2 previous posts:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/4109325739136603/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/4087851844617326/
Two weeks later…
Range still seems to be ok but my motorcycle now only charges to 99% or 98%.
This started about 6-7 days ago, I then had my motorcycle for about 1 week since I got it back from the dealer. The first week was trouble free. The second week I experienced this weird charge behavior about 1 time every 3 charges. Now it no longer charges to 100% every charge.
I have alerted my dealer and he said he has seen this behavior before but will ask Zero.
I have again asked my dealer if Zero has given a reason for the first problems I have experienced. As maybe these are related. I have asked this question 3 times now but the dealer never seems to answer this.
…
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Range still seems to be ok but my motorcycle now only charges to 99% or 98%.
Meaningless, if you do not measure the battery voltage (but I have no idea how to do that on a SR/S).
You will probably find that 98% is really 100% SOC displaying as 98%.
I am not sure if this would work, but I would try riding the bike to as close to 0% SOC as your comfortable with and then do a full charge.
That could help recalibrate your SOC.
If the battery measures low at that 98% SOC, then you have a charger that is below spec.
I kinda think charging too often when well above 50% SOC can cause it to get out of calibration, but I cannot say I am sure about such. I used to see it (98 or 99% SOC at full charge) happen on my DS and SR once in a great while (not often) but I have not seen it at all since I now do not charge it at as high as SOCs as I used to.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It's not really meaningless?
It is a bit of an indication the bike has no clue what the capacity or state of it's battery is.
It has done it 4 times in a row over 2 days now, the 5th time it went to 100% and kept charging at a reaaaally low rate for about 45min. so a charge that was supposed to take 45min now took 1h and 30 min.
Thing is that I was using exactly the same as the week before it. I ride it every day so this sudden change from what I am used to seeing while charging is a bit strange. And I have been like a hawk on it, watching it closely last 2 weeks as I haven't gotten a reason it behaved strangely from Zero in the first place, so for me it's not really fixed until I know that and Zero acted accordingly.
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Charging longer is usually cell balancing.
-Crissa
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I wanted to give an update to my 2 previous posts:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/4109325739136603/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/4087851844617326/
Two weeks later…
Range still seems to be ok but my motorcycle now only charges to 99% or 98%.
This started about 6-7 days ago, I then had my motorcycle for about 1 week since I got it back from the dealer. The first week was trouble free. The second week I experienced this weird charge behavior about 1 time every 3 charges. Now it no longer charges to 100% every charge.
I have alerted my dealer and he said he has seen this behavior before but will ask Zero.
I have again asked my dealer if Zero has given a reason for the first problems I have experienced. As maybe these are related. I have asked this question 3 times now but the dealer never seems to answer this.
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Are you sure your charge target is disabled? If it isn't, then it's set to 95% by default and after reaching that target it continues to charge until 98-99% as it balances the cells. Once it's done the bike will shut off and the SoC gets back to 95% in sometime. Agreed that the SoC should not show more than 95% at any point in time even if it's balancing the cells, but that's how it is. Note that when charge target is enabled it will never reach a 100% even after balancing the cells.
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Jup checked multiple times. No Charge Target set or enabled.
Yesterday I did another test. Drove to 64% SoC, Plugged in at a 6KW station. Started charging. It showed 45min charging which is perfectly possible on a 6KW station.
It charged fine to 90% then it started doing the up down routine with the current (going down to 2A and up to a random amount every 20sec). It did reach 100% this time (was happy) but it charged for a good half hour on 100% at around 2A... So a charge stop that should have taken around 45min took a bit longer than 1hour and 30 min.
So yeah... I'll see what it does when I get home from work today.
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So another update to the saga:
Last week my bikes charging became more and more erratic. It didn’t charge to 100% and it took reaaally long to get at 98 or 99% and then stop. As in a charge that should have taken 45min took 1h 35min and another time a charge that should have taken 1h took over 2h.
I relayed al this information to my dealer and 2 days later to my surprise the dealer said Zero offered me a replacement battery. No analysis needed this time it seems just my e-mail with the problems was enough.
So before agreeing I asked some questions:
- What is the warranty of a replacement pack?
- Will this pack have the fix for the error 43 that had plagued my bike before?
- Will the replacement take place at my dealer or does my bike need to go to Holland again?
- What is the delivery period and installation time for the pack.
Some days passed since asking these questions and my battery behavior is going donw the drain fast. I rode it to 0% with appalling range. Started charging and the bike just stopped charging at 63%, like it was finished. It shut down the LCD and everything. After a half an hour I could restart the charging and it was able to charge to 100% then. 4 hours later I key the bine on and the SoC shows 91%…
So I again relay this to my dealer. And he has some answers for my questions.
- The warranty will be the same as on the original bike so I don’t lose and don’t gain any warranty period.
- No answer yet if the pack will have the error 43 fix.
- Replacement will take place at the dealer (so hopefully less damaged bike this time…)
- No info on delivery time yet but the bike will need to go in on a Saturday and stay at the dealers until the next Thursday. So it seems like a big job.
At the moment I am very apprehensive about the whole deal and really bummed my bike is still not ok. I’m starting to hate riding it purely because I can never trust it.
Since I have purchased it at the end of March (this year) I had maybe 2 or 3 weeks where the bike performed as advertised. The other time it definitely did not… the list of problems is:
- 12v battery issues (not fixed at the moment)
- Warped discs in front (fixed)
- No cellular connection (fixed but still bugged)
- Error 43 isolation fault (fixed I hope, haven’t ridden in a big downpour since)
- Bike needed to go to Holland (Zero EU HQ) to fix the problems stated above. Should have taken 2 weeks max. Took 1 month and a week due to very bad communication between dealer and Zero HQ.
- Zero damaged my swingarm paint during that time. Cannot be fixed, I have used some touch up paint but still noticeable.
- Zero then also forgot to tighten the seatplastic bolts.
- Zero scratched my rear tire plastic fender.
- Zero used different (wrong) and differently colored bolts when reattaching my panier rack.
- Zero damaged my right rear passenger handgrip. They said they would send a new one. The one they send was damaged worse in shipping due to bad packaging. One month later I haven’t received a new part. Still waiting.
- First problems with range and crazy SoC jumps start when I pick the bike back up. But no weird charging the . This is magically fixed after being a week at the dealer and Zero remote analysis. (I suspect just a BMS reset happened.
- 2 weeks later the same battery problems are coming back but very weird and inconsistent charging is also joining the party.
So yeah, I can’t recommend Zero at this point. The only time they went out of their way was when they offered a replacement bike when mine went to Holland. But that is about it. When I call them I either get someone that says they do not talk or help direct customers or someone that is friendly but can’t do very much. So I stopped calling them.
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You keep blaming Zero for what your dealer is doing.
You say 'Zero damaged' but you gave it to a dealer, and a transporter, and any of them could be responsible for the damage.
If they replace a battery, they replace the battery. It shouldn't require going to Zero to fix unless your dealer is particularly inept or is sending them conflicting details.
-Crissa
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The dealer got a request from Zero to send the bike to them. It wasn’t my choice or the dealers.
All damage is consistent with taking the rear subframe from the bike. The damage on the swingarm is from loosening the rack bolts and letting the rack slide over the paint. Damage on the passenger grip is from improper support when suspending the frame. Etc… Zero is the only one that has taken the subframe frome the bike as they need to acces the rear of the battery to fix the error 43. The radsock connectors there need to be reached.
Dealer is just the middleman.
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The isolation problems are a tricky one to solve. In the US at least, one or two bikes have gone back to Zero for more major rework. Sometimes they just swap the battery and recover the old one for tests. But they can't force it, we're supposed to get owner approval for those things. I'd say its more likely it got damaged in transit than at Zero, but you never know. It sounds like you might have a bad battery unrelated to your isolation issues or software quirks.
I know Zero US takes pictures of the bike on receipt for repairs so they can identify the source of any damage. Maybe Zero EU does that too.
Sorry this experience has been so difficult. Most people seem to be fine but every so often someone goes through the ringer :(
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Yeah...
I had taken pictures before transport as well as my dealer (we did not know each had taken pictures) so the damage happened at Zero or during transport but as I said, all the damage is very consistent with someone being very sloppy with tools and once the sub frame is loose it definitely slid over swingarm and plastic fender. just a towel over the area would have prevented a lot I think.
The repair was in general quite sloppy... loose bolts, misaligned and not fastened seatplastics and also which was weird to me, 3 sticky mouse pads where placed between the subframe and seatplastics but as they where not adhered properly they fell out on the second ride. I have no Idea what they where doing there, it looked quite ugly too. Looks like they where placed to stop some water flowing from the seat to the back of the battery but it would never have worked.
either way, I wonder what the delivery time will be for the replacement pack, We don't know if they stock packs at the EU HQ or if they have to be shipped from the US.
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What a lot of trouble you have gone through! A totally different experience than I have had with my 2020 SR/S demo. They can work properly if you get a good one so hang in there and hopefully the new battery will correct the problems. Looks like you will loose more summer riding time though and that's a bummer.
Hope your luck changes for the better.
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And yes same here and have had absolutely no troubles so far! I had a Zero S earlier with a lot of magic charging issues and now no issues with an SR/F. So it might indeed be a battery pack issue and it does seem like a lottery. I would say wait until you get the new pack and then think of your next steps. Hopefully your next step after that will be to enjoy your SR/S 😊
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Sorry to hear about all the bad experiences with your bike. Hope things get better from here...
It didn’t charge to 100% and it took reaaally long to get at 98 or 99% and then stop. As in a charge that should have taken 45min took 1h 35min and another time a charge that should have taken 1h took over 2h.
Started charging and the bike just stopped charging at 63%, like it was finished.
After a half an hour I could restart the charging and it was able to charge to 100% then. 4 hours later I key the bike on and the SoC shows 91%…
These 3 details strongly point to one (or more) of the cell chains in the packs going bad.
A battery pack will stop charging once the first cells hit the specified "max" cell voltage. Normally at this point the balance process kicks in to discharge energy from the highest cell chains. Once some programmed voltage has been discharged from these cells the charge process will start again. This cycle of charge the pack, discharge the full cells continues till the voltage delta between the high and low cells reach the programmed threshold.
A pack that takes ages to balance signifies to me that the voltage delta is high.
A battery pack will exhibit voltage sag when disconnected from a charger, that's normal. However damaged cells (high resistance) will have a higher voltage sag vs good condition cells. This would lead to a big drop in the overall SOC of your pack.
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Yeah,
At the moment my bike is already balancing 1h and 25 min. It reached 100% this time and started tapering. It should have been a 1h and 10 min charge. Now already 2h and 35min and counting...
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Did I see Zero reach out to you on Facebook? Any progress there?
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Yes they did, I asked them what the cause could be for my problems. They have asked the technicians from the EU HQ to contact me about this.
My dealer called me today that they are still looking for a reason, they (Zero) now that there is a problem (with more bikes too) he said but it seems there isn't a clear reason yet.
My bike will receive a new pack in a few weeks, so fingers crossed it will fix things.
I also asked about the app bugs (0% soc via remote connection, no Ride Capture possible and the bug with the ride modes).
I was put in contact with a US Zero technician and he told me the ride mode bug is fixed already and will be in an upcoming app update. He asked more information about the other bug so he can start a ticket to fix these.
I want to reiterate that my dealer was extremely helpful all this time. He still listens to me and is doing everything Zero asks him to do.
At the moment I am ok with the solution (replacing the pack) as it stands now. I hope the problem that plagues my pack will not be present in the replacement pack.